What happened after Trump kicked Zelensky out of the Oval Office

Summary

Post Reports Podcast Summary
Episode: What happened after Trump kicked Zelensky out of the Oval Office
Release Date: March 3, 2025
Hosts: Martine Powers and Elahe Izadi

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Introduction

In this gripping episode of Post Reports, hosted by Martine Powers and Elahe Izadi, the hosts delve into the tumultuous aftermath of a high-stakes Oval Office meeting involving former President Donald Trump, Vice President J.D. Vance, and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. Published amidst ongoing tensions in the Ukraine-Russia conflict, the episode provides an in-depth analysis of the confrontation's implications on international relations and the future of the war in Europe.

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Overview of the Oval Office Confrontation

Martine Powers sets the stage by recounting the dramatic events that transpired three days prior, where President Trump abruptly ended a meeting with Vice President Vance and President Zelensky. The intended agenda was to finalize a deal granting the U.S. limited access to Ukraine's natural resources, aimed at bolstering Ukraine's support against Russian aggression. However, the meeting devolved into a public showdown, leaving the agreement unresolved.

Martine Powers:
"[00:01] It has been three days since the shocking Oval Office meltdown between President Donald Trump, Vice President J.D. Vance and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky."

Vice President J.D. Vance:
"[00:27] You're right now not in a very good position. You've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position... you're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now."

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Analysis of the Meeting

Martine engages with White House reporter Michael Birnbaum to dissect the unprecedented nature of the encounter. Birnbaum describes the meeting as "a dizzying encounter" with no modern precedent, emphasizing the tension between the U.S. and Ukraine's leadership.

Michael Birnbaum:
"[02:01] It was a dizzying encounter. I've just never seen anything like it... This really didn't have any modern precedent."

The discussion highlights President Trump's antagonistic approach towards Zelensky, contrasting sharply with typical diplomatic engagements. The involvement of Vice President Vance added another layer of complexity, leading to a collapse of the proposed minerals deal.

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Detailed Breakdown of the Confrontation

Birnbaum provides a minute-by-minute account of the meeting's escalation. Initially tense, the interaction remained controlled until Vance intervened, accusing Trump of disrespect and challenging his handling of Ukraine's military conscription issues.

Vice President J.D. Vance:
"[05:01] You say what problems we have..."

As the confrontation intensified, Trump reacted defensively to Zelensky's remarks about America's perceived security, culminating in Trump expelling Zelensky from the Oval Office abruptly.

Michael Birnbaum:
"[06:05] Eventually, Trump basically kicked Zelensky out of the White House, and that was the end of the meeting."

The fallout was symbolically marked by Trump's press secretary boasting that Trump had "eaten Zelensky's lunch," both literally and figuratively, by having the prepared lunch served to White House staffers instead.

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Reactions from European Leaders

The episode explores the immediate and varied responses from European leaders following the fallout. Initial shock gave way to strategic recalibrations, with European nations reassessing their support for Ukraine amidst uncertainty over U.S. commitment.

Michael Birnbaum:
"[11:16] There is a mixture of reactions from Europeans... We need to stand up on our own and do our best."

Highlighting King Charles' reception of Zelenskyy, the discussion underscores Europe's attempt to maintain solidarity with Ukraine despite the U.S. upheaval.

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Russian Perspective and Putin's Response

Birnbaum explains Russia's elation over the U.S. discord, interpreting Trump's actions as a shift towards Russian-aligned policies. Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov publicly lauded the meeting's outcome, viewing it as a realignment of U.S. foreign policy favorable to Russia.

Michael Birnbaum:
"[16:21] The Russians are so delighted, they can't believe their luck... this is the beginning of a beautiful relationship."

This marks a significant pivot in U.S.-Russia relations, with potential ramifications for the ongoing conflict in Ukraine.

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Implications for the Ukraine-Russia War

The hosts discuss the precarious state of the war following the U.S. administration's unexpected stance. With the U.S. potentially retracting military support, Europe faces the challenge of sustaining Ukraine's defense efforts.

Michael Birnbaum:
"[21:32] Intense diplomacy is happening... Putin might press forward to capture more territory if U.S. aid is curtailed."

The uncertainty raises concerns about Russia capitalizing on the situation to gain territorial advantages, potentially prolonging the conflict.

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Republican Circles and Shifting Loyalties

The episode delves into the Republican Party's rallying around Trump despite his controversial stance on Ukraine. Significant figures, previously staunchly anti-Russia, now endorse Trump's alignment with Russian narratives.

Michael Birnbaum:
"[25:02] Republicans are standing by their president... Secretary of State Marco Rubio... now saying he's so proud of his president."

This realignment signals a broader ideological shift within the party, potentially altering U.S. foreign policy dynamics.

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Impact on President Zelenskyy and Ukrainian Leadership

The confrontation presents a critical juncture for President Zelenskyy. While still broadly popular, his approval ratings have seen a decline, and his leadership is under scrutiny amid calls for new elections—a move primarily advocated by Russian interests rather than internal Ukrainian factions.

Michael Birnbaum:
"[26:32] Zelenskyy remains broadly popular in Ukraine... his approval has decreased from the 90s to the mid-50s."

Opinions within Ukraine are divided on Zelenskyy's handling of the meeting, balancing perceptions of strength against critiques of diplomatic shortcomings.

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Future Prospects and Ongoing Diplomacy

Looking ahead, the hosts discuss the uncertain path towards a ceasefire or peace agreement. With Russia potentially seizing more Ukrainian territory and the U.S.'s unpredictable support, the prospects for a swift resolution remain bleak.

Michael Birnbaum:
"[21:32] It's a little hard to know what's actually going to happen... Putin might press forward to capture more territory."

The episode underscores the urgency for European nations to potentially take a more proactive role in supporting Ukraine, given the instability in U.S. commitment.

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Conclusion

Post Reports delivers a comprehensive and engaging analysis of a pivotal moment in international politics. Through expert insights and firsthand reporting, Martine Powers and Michael Birnbaum illuminate the complex interplay between U.S. domestic politics, European alliances, and the enduring conflict in Ukraine. The episode serves as a crucial update for listeners seeking to understand the ramifications of the Oval Office confrontation and its broader implications on global stability.

Notable Quotes:

• Martine Powers:
  "[00:01] It has been three days since the shocking Oval Office meltdown between President Donald Trump, Vice President J.D. Vance and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky."

• Michael Birnbaum:
  "[02:01] It was a dizzying encounter. I've just never seen anything like it..."

• Vice President J.D. Vance:
  "[05:01] You say what problems we have."

• Michael Birnbaum:
  "[16:21] The Russians are so delighted, they can't believe their luck..."

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Transcript

[Martine Powers]

It has been three days since the shocking Oval Office meltdown between President Donald Trump, Vice President J.D. vance and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. The two countries were supposed to finalize a deal granting the US Limited access to Ukraine's natural resources. Ukraine had hoped that that would bolster support from the US in its war against Russia. But that deal did not happen.

[J.D. Vance]

You're right now not in a very good position. You've allowed yourself to be in a very bad position. And he happens to be right about from the very beginning of the war, you're not in a good position. You don't have the cards right now.

[Martine Powers]

In the aftermath, there have been questions about what this confrontation means for the future of the deadly war that is still raging in Europe. Zelensky's allies have rallied behind him. They are doubling down on their support for Ukraine. Meanwhile, in the US Many Republicans have been standing by Trump's apparent animosity towards Zelensky, making the future of US Aid to Ukraine uncertain. From the newsroom of the Washington Post, this is Post Reports. I'm Martine powers. It's Monday, March 3rd. Today I talk with White House reporter Michael Birnbaum about the international fallout from that Oval Office meeting, why Russia is happy about how things unfolded and what Zelenskyy might do next. So Michael, at this point, I know many people have seen or heard at least parts of this back and forth between Trump and J.D. vance and Zelensky on Friday. We also talked through that on Post reports on Friday a of what transpired in that meeting. But I'm curious, just for you briefly, what was your reaction to this meeting?

[Michael Birnbaum]

It was a dizzying encounter. I've just never seen anything like it. I mean, normally you don't have the leader of a nominally allied country in the Oval Office and rip them to shreds. Normally you don't have any leader in the Oval Office who gets ripped to shreds. This really didn't have any modern precedent. And given how dependent Ukraine is on US Military aid and this messy relationship, it was just an extraordinary moment that really called into question the future of war and peace on the European continent.

[Martine Powers]

And for folks who did not happen to see some of the footage from this meeting, as we said earlier, this was a meeting to talk about a potential deal about access to rare earth minerals from Ukraine. So, Michael, can you just describe briefly what happened and what they were discussing in some of these very contentious moments?

[Michael Birnbaum]

So Donald Trump's approach to all of these encounters in the Oval Office, I mean, both Domestic and internationally is very different. He likes to let the press in and leave them in for long periods of time. So this was basically a meeting that was intended for Zelenskyy to come kind of put his case in front of the US president. It stretched 45 minutes without a lot of drama. It was a little tense here and there. You can tell that Donald Trump doesn't love Zelensky.

[Martine Powers]

It's an understatement, I think.

[Michael Birnbaum]

But it was, you know, things were holding together. And really almost toward the end, Trump said, you know, one last question, question came and things just went off the rails from there. Zelensky kept giving these answers that were a little long winded.

[J.D. Vance]

I'm not speaking about just Biden, but those time was Obama, then President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, now President Trump. And God bless now President Trump will stop.

[Michael Birnbaum]

You know, he corrected Trump at various points about factual issues.

[J.D. Vance]

2015, 2014, 2014 and 2014.

[Michael Birnbaum]

Yeah.

[J.D. Vance]

So I was not here.

[Michael Birnbaum]

Yeah, that's exactly right.

[J.D. Vance]

Yes.

[Michael Birnbaum]

But during 2014, he was kind of peeving the Americans. And really, at the end, Vice President J.D. vance leapt in, said, hey, you are inappropriate. You have not said thanks once during this encounter. Mr. President, Mr. President, with respect, I think it's disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office, try to litigate this in front of the American media. Right now, you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines because you have manpower problems. You should be thanking the president. Zelensky went back, said, have you ever been to Ukraine?

[J.D. Vance]

You say what problems we have.

[Michael Birnbaum]

Vance said, I don't need to go. I've seen the propaganda tours that you take people on. You bring them on a propaganda tour. Mr. President, do you disagree that you've had problems bringing people in your military? And do you think Zelensky pushed back? Sure.

[J.D. Vance]

First of all, during the war, everybody has problems, even you. But you have nice ocean and don't.

[Michael Birnbaum]

Feel now you think you have an ocean. Eventually war is going to cross this ocean.

[Martine Powers]

And Trump kind of took offense to that. It almost sounded. I mean, I think at least from the way that he reacted, it sounded like Trump thought that that was a threat or that Zelenskyy was being patronizing to the US Being like, well, you have this big, wide ocean that makes you feel safe, but you're really not right.

[Michael Birnbaum]

And he, yeah, Zelenskyy used the word feel, feeling. And Trump. That really pissed Trump off.

[J.D. Vance]

Don't tell us what we're gonna feel. We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're gonna feel. I'm not telling you because you're in no position to dictate that.

[Martine Powers]

Remember this?

[J.D. Vance]

You're in no position to dictate what we're gonna feel.

[Michael Birnbaum]

And things just went totally off the charts from there.

[J.D. Vance]

You're gambling with the lives of millions of people. You're gambling with World War three. You're gambling with World War iii.

[Michael Birnbaum]

Eventually, Trump basically kicked Zelensky out of the White House, and that was the end of the meeting. They were supposed to sign a minerals deal. They were supposed to have a press conference. It was supposed.

[Martine Powers]

That did not happen.

[Michael Birnbaum]

None of it happened. Later, Caroline Levitt, Trump's press secretary, bragged that Trump had eaten Zelensky's lunch, literally and figuratively. They ended up serving the lunch that had been prepared for Zelensky and his people to the White House staffers.

[Martine Powers]

That is a pretty powerful symbol there. Yeah. And I'm curious what you made of how Trump and Vance handled themselves in this meeting. I mean, do you think that this was a kind of coordinated plan of attack from them? That they went into this meeting knowing that they did not like how Ukraine was positioning themselves in this moment and that they wanted to really, like, go to the mat and make Zelensky look bad, or did this seem to you like a more spontaneous kind of outburst or attack from them?

[Michael Birnbaum]

That's a great question, Martine, and it's a little hard to tell. I talked to a lot of European policymakers, diplomats, right afterward, and they said they felt J.D. vance was just lying in wait to attack and that it was premeditated. This is something that had been cooked up in advance. The White House says that's not the case. They point to the fact that a signing ceremony had been prepared. They acknowledged that it had been tricky to get to the meeting. And obviously there are a lot of tensions underlying the relationship, but they thought they were in an okay place, and they say things just went off the rails. Based on Zelenskyy's tone, the way he was going back and forth. Clearly, no matter whether it was premeditated or spontaneous, it's a sign of how tenuous and how fragile this relationship is.

[Martine Powers]

I'm also curious about your reaction to how Zelenskyy conducted himself in this meeting. And I think a lot of people look at what transpired and, and see Zelenskyy as essentially the victim here. As, you know, this president of a war torn country who's trying to defend his nation against an invasion. At the same time, you know, we have had conversations in the past and talked on the podcast a ago about how the signs were already there that Trump's alignment with Ukraine or loyalty. Ukraine is dissolving as we speak. And that it shouldn't have been a surprise that Trump would go into this meeting, not necessarily seeing Zelensky in a positive light. So I'm curious how you thought he handled himself in this meeting and whether he made some strategic oversights in letting it get to this very frankly, angry place.

[Michael Birnbaum]

So this was a meeting that Zelensky wanted. He wanted to sit face to face with Trump and emphasize the Ukrainian perspective, offer up why he thought it was important for the United States from the US Perspective to keep helping Ukraine. He was very.

[Martine Powers]

And not to trust Putin. Right. That was one of his big points, is like you want us to sign a deal with Vladimir Putin, but he is not to be trusted. And just because we signed a deal doesn't mean that he's gonna adhere to it.

[Michael Birnbaum]

Yeah, this is a. That a lot of Trump's people thought was not a good idea. And Keith Kellogg, who is Donald Trump's special envoy to Ukraine and Russia, had been in Ukraine the previous week and had been doing a lot of negotiations with the Ukrainians. He had, I'm told, suggested that maybe they should just sign the minerals deal at a lower level, that the time was not ripe for a face to face meeting. I think they were worried that something could explode in this way. And Zelenskyy is a tough and uncompromising character. He forcefully advocates for Ukraine. He doesn't take a lot of guff from anybody. You know, I used to travel with former Secretary of State Antony Blinken went a couple times with him to Ukraine. And the Biden administration was constantly complaining about the way Zelenskyy talked to them too. They were very frustrated as well because he just pushed back. He never really was interested in speaking to them as a supplicant.

[Martine Powers]

Interesting.

[Michael Birnbaum]

Clearly he wasn't interested in doing that on Friday. And clearly that was not a tone and an approach that worked very well with Trump and Vance.

[Martine Powers]

I want to come back later to a little bit more about what this moment means for Zelensky himself. But let's just talk a little bit about the reactions from the past few days since meeting took place, specifically the reaction from European leaders. What have we heard in Europe from folks there, especially as Zelenskyy left the White House and then went to Europe to sit down with some of these European leaders? In the aftermath.

[Michael Birnbaum]

So there is a mixture of reactions from Europeans. I think the most emotional and immediate of them were, oh, my goodness, the United States is not going to help Ukraine in the future, and maybe the United States isn't going to help Europe in the future. We need to stand up on our own and do our best. In the days since this encounter, I think things have calmed just a little bit. We had a meeting of a bunch of European leaders in London yesterday talking about strategy. Their goal is both to supply European, funding European troops to Ukraine, but also to come up with a broader strategy that helps bring the United States back in to relations with Ukraine and to helping Ukraine. One thing that I saw yesterday that I thought was fascinating was that Zelenskyy got an audience with King Charles, which is something that Trump loves, is really excited about. He loves the royal family, the British royal family.

[Martine Powers]

I feel like I knew that. He just gets excited about the. The pomp around.

[Michael Birnbaum]

Oh, man. He loves the Queen and the navigator. Yes. He loves those royals. And British Prime Minister Keir Starmer was in Washington on Thursday, and he had this entire apparently rehearsed unveiling ceremony. He pulled an envelope out of his breast pocket, this sort of creamy envelope. It was a letter from the king inviting Trump to an audience to a state visit, an unprecedented second state visit that, you know, Kier Starmer said it was historic because no one had ever gotten an invite back for a second visit with the royals.

[Martine Powers]

And at the time. Right. Like, this invitation was thought of as kind of a strategic move by Starmer to basically say, look, if you sign a deal with Ukraine and, like, continue commitments with Ukraine, like, your reward at the end of this will be that you get to go visit the king.

[Michael Birnbaum]

It was brilliant. It was. He was buttering up Trump so hard, and it was working. Trump read out this invitation. He needed to, like, flip to the second page to check the signature.

[J.D. Vance]

That is really nice. I must make sure his signature's on that, otherwise it's not quite as meaningful. It is. And that's quite a signature. Isn't it beautiful? He's a beautiful man, a wonderful man.

[Michael Birnbaum]

And now Zelenskyy got this chummy visit ahead of Trump with the king.

[Martine Powers]

And then there have been calls at the same time for the British government to essentially cancel the state visit. Though my understanding is that that has not happened yet, that for now, the state visit is still on.

[Michael Birnbaum]

That's right. There have been these calls. My gut is that they wouldn't cancel it, but, I mean, yeah, nothing has changed.

[Martine Powers]

So Far interesting. So we'll see if that's enough of a carrot for Trump to maybe bring him back to the table in the way that the UK Is interested in. But, but from more serious and long term note, if this is a moment where, judging from this meeting, I think that there is a lot to question about whether the US Will have any real commitment to Ukraine going forward. And if this is a moment where Europe is kind of stepping in and saying, look, we have to pick up the mantle and take on the charge of defending Ukraine and making sure that any peace deal doesn't leave this country hanging, can Europe do that? Is there enough European support there to be able to kind of pick up where the US Is leaving off and to make sure that Ukraine doesn't lose anything more in this war.

[Michael Birnbaum]

So Europe has a lot of money, it has some amount of agency. It can help Ukraine for a while. So if the US Were to pull the plug on support for Ukraine, which we don't know is going to happen yet, but that would mean that Europe could keep going for some time to help the Ukrainians and the war wouldn't end tomorrow. But Europe does not have the industrial capacity that the United States has. So in terms of really big things like air defense, sort of big military, shiny hardware, the United States has the production capacity. And one question has been, at some point, even if Trump says we're going to cut off U.S. aid for Ukraine, does that mean U.S. funding, or does that mean something stronger and harder? Would he allow the Europeans to buy US Military production and send it to Ukraine or not? That's something, if it were possible, that would actually enable Ukraine to keep going for quite some time. But the Europeans are definitely, they're trying to come up with what in the world they can do if the United States isn't involved.

[Martine Powers]

What has been the reaction to all this from Russia and from Russian President Vladimir Putin?

[Michael Birnbaum]

The Russians are so delighted, they can't believe their luck. I mean, you have Donald Trump, the US president, inverting 80 years of policy and skepticism from Washington toward Russia. It's not right to say that he is entirely realigning the United States with Russia. We're not there yet, but he's endorsing the narratives that are coming from the Kremlin. He's endorsing Putin personally. Something that was striking in his meeting with Zelenskyy last week is how incredibly unsympathetic he was to this Ukrainian leader who has faced three years of attack, of war, of, you know, this really grinding conflict. And how sympathetic Trump was to Putin. He said, we went through this Russia hoax together. You know, that's how I know I can trust him, because we've been through a lot together, Vladimir and I, and it's just kind of astonishing. So what you have concretely in the last couple of days, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov was saying the new administration is rapidly changing all foreign policy configurations. This largely aligns with our vision. That's something that our colleague Francesca Abel was reporting today. So they've really gotten excited about what Trump is doing, telling us at the Washington Post, you know, this is great. You know, you have Donald Trump and Washington finally understanding the Russian perspective, agreeing with us on so many issues. And this is the beginning of a beautiful relationship.

[Martine Powers]

After the break, I talk with Michael about whether Friday's meeting has changed the possibility of a peace deal. We'll be right back.

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[Martine Powers]

So, Michael, at this point, how likely is an end to this war?

[Michael Birnbaum]

Now, I think that you see the Europeans, the Ukrainians, and certainly the Americans all lined up saying there's going to be some sort of negotiation that puts a halt to the fighting, and the Russians say they want it too. It's a little hard to know what's actually going to happen. So certainly there is intense diplomacy that's happening right now between the Americans and the Russians in terms of what a ceasefire could look like. That's being done over the heads of the Ukrainians, seemingly, although in some ways they're being looped in. You have a lot of discussions between the Americans and the Europeans about the future of support for Ukraine. There are a few questions about what happens. If I were Russian President Vladimir Putin looking at the situation, it's a pretty good time for Russia not to stop fighting, but actually to press forward and to fight as hard as it can to capture more territory, to press its advantage in all ways possible. They could try to catch some key Ukrainian port cities. They could build a stronger bridge, expand their territory between the Russian mainland and Crimea, already have a corridor, but they could do more damage, particularly if the United States firmly cuts off Ukraine from military aid, as it has not yet done, but is talking about doing.

[Martine Powers]

That's very interesting, this idea that this could be a booing moment for Russia. And then even though there's all this talk of a peace deal, that from the Russian point of view, this might not be the time to be like, there's a peace deal in sight. We can kind of let things ramp down, that this is a moment where they might be thinking we need to ramp up the volume here because we want to be in as advantageous of a negotiating position as possible, because it seems like we're gonna get almost anything that we want because Trump is so on our side.

[Michael Birnbaum]

Trump has been asked repeatedly and his aides have been asked repeatedly, what concessions are you asking from the Russians, like, what is this deal? And they don't have an answer. They say both sides are gonna have to make concessions, but they have nothing concrete for the Russians. It does seem as though the Russians will kind of get the territory and they just have to stop the fighting. So they might as well capture all the territor right now. This war continues. I mean, Ukraine is getting hit constantly. And, you know, on Friday, as all of this was going down here in Washington, I was talking with our colleague Shivan O'Grady, who is our chief Ukraine correspondent. They're seven hours ahead of here. It was nighttime already, and she was saying she was hearing shahed drones, Russian drones flying around Kyiv. They were bombing the capital city. She was hearing explosions. You know, this is something that has continued very actively even as all these discussions have been underway.

[Martine Powers]

And the fact that Trump seems so aligned with Putin in this moment and seems so tenuous about continued support of Ukraine. How is it playing out in Republican circles here in the U.S. i mean, you have so many Republicans who over the years have really been advocates for taking a strong line against Russia, specifically against Putin. And at this moment, where Trump is basically saying essentially that Vladimir Putin is the sympathetic actor here, how are Republicans standing by that or not standing by that?

[Michael Birnbaum]

Republicans are standing by their president. And it has been extraordinary to see the flipping of generations of Republican support for victims of Russia, you could say, evaporate in a matter of weeks. I mean, this has been a direction the party was moving in already. There were a lot of questions last year about the future of Ukraine aid, but you still had a core of the Republican Party, including senior Republican leadership in Congress and elsewhere, continuing a tough line on Russia. And now a lot of those same people have totally flipped. Secretary of State Marco Rubio one of the biggest Russia hawks when he was a senator is now now saying he's so proud of his president for standing up for America's interests. And he just loved what happened in the Oval Office on Friday. And we have a situation where we're endorsing peace through strength.

[Martine Powers]

And then I just want to come back to Zelensky and what this moment means for him. This is clearly a challenging moment for his leadership. Three years into the war, he's obviously exhausted. And there have been some growing questions in Ukraine about what the future his leadership will look like. How does this meeting on Friday affect what's to come for Zelenskyy and about the support that's behind him in Ukraine.

[Michael Birnbaum]

So Zelenskyy remains broadly popular in Ukraine. Based on opinion polling, he's less popular than he used to be. Once upon a time, I think he was somewhere in the 90s in approvals, and he's down to the mid-50s, which is still better than Trump. And there have been calls on the US Side and the Russian side to hold new elections in Ukraine, with, I think, the Kremlin side hoping that the result would be a more pliant leader in Kyiv. Zelenskyy's five year term ended in 2024. But the situation in Ukraine, I mean, they have a war on. They've had martial law in place for three years and, and under those terms, they suspend elections. The leader of Ukraine remains in place, and that's because it's awfully hard to organize elections in the middle of wartime. I mean, Ukraine is currently occupied. A fifth of its territory is held by Russia. So it's hard to get a representative election when you can't open your polling places on all parts of your territory. And it's not something that Zelenskyy's biggest political rivals are seeking. It's something that the Kremlin has been seeking. So it's just not something that has been on the table in Ukraine, even if Trump now is pushing for it and calling Zelenskyy a dictator. But, you know, there are mixed feelings in Ukraine about how Zelenskyy handled Friday, how he handled this meeting with Trump. Some, you know, senior Ukrainians say he stood up for his country. He was uncompromising. You know, this is a victim nation, and he should not have to be in the position of sort of bowing and scraping and saying thank you, thank you, thank you every 30 seconds when he's, you know, busy fighting on behalf of Europe, Europe and the United States against a fearsome adversary. And then there were others who said, look, he needed to go in and not quite take it, but put his.

[Martine Powers]

Pride aside to at least get this deal done and move forward from there.

[Michael Birnbaum]

That his most important job was to go to Washington and maintain U.S. support for Ukraine. And that is not what happened. And that was a preventable situation and that he failed at that task. And so there is some frustration that he, he couldn't just do what he needed to do, even if it was maybe a little humiliating or maybe a little not ideal. But he didn't get the job done on Friday.

[Martine Powers]

And so what does that mean going forward for him?

[Michael Birnbaum]

Well, this is a drama whose end has not been written. Today, Trump reportedly is going to be talking with his aides about the future of US Support for Ukraine. These are discussions that are happening in real time in Europe. And we still don't really know what's going to happen with this mineral deal that, you know, isn't 100% central to the future of U.S. support, but is the kind of first step from Trump's perspective in unlocking more conversations. So I think that all these sides are expecting to keep talking, to regroup a little bit in the coming days. There doesn't seem to be some truly serious leadership challenge to Zelenskyy in Ukraine. I mean, I think he's going to be sticking around as president, but we don't know what's going to happen next.

[Martine Powers]

Michael, this has been fascinating. Thank you so much.

[Michael Birnbaum]

Thanks, Martine.

[Martine Powers]

Michael Birnbaum covers the White House and foreign policy for the Post. If you want to hear the biggest headlines first thing in the morning, I recommend checking out the seven. We bring you through the seven stories you need to know about every Weekday morning by 7am you can listen to it wherever you listen to podcasts. Today's show was produced by Emma Talcott with help from Bishop Sand. It was mixed by Sam Baer and edited by Lucy Perkins. I'm Martine Powers. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from the Washington Post.

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