Why Bob Woodward worries about Trump's America

Summary

Post Reports: Why Bob Woodward Worries About Trump's America
The Washington Post | Released March 28, 2025

Introduction
In this compelling episode of Post Reports, hosts Martine Powers and Elahe Izadi engage in a profound conversation with esteemed journalist Bob Woodward. Renowned for his investigative prowess and iconic collaboration with Carl Bernstein on the Watergate scandal, Woodward provides an in-depth analysis of President Donald Trump’s second term and its implications for American democracy.

---

Comparing Trump’s Presidency to Watergate
Timestamp: 00:02 – 02:57

The discussion opens with Colby Bjekowicz reflecting on Woodward’s extensive experience reporting on U.S. presidents, particularly his engagement with Trump through multiple bestselling books. Bjekowicz poses the central question: “What does Bob Woodward think of President Trump's approach to the presidency this time?”

Woodward's Perspective on Gerald Ford’s 1974 Statement
Timestamp: 01:35 – 03:06

Woodward begins by reflecting on Gerald Ford’s declaration, “Our Constitution works. Our great republic is a government of laws and not of men” (01:35). He contrasts the optimism of the 1974 moment with today’s political climate:

“Hearing those words, wow, there's 50 years of reflection and reporting for the Washington Post and for endless books. It was a very important time in American history... the reality was that Nixon resigned because of Watergate...” (01:43)

Woodward expresses concern that the foundational principle Ford stated seems to be eroding under Trump’s administration, highlighting dismantling reforms such as the FBI director's tenure, inspector generals, and campaign finance restraints.

---

Erosion of Democratic Institutions
Timestamp: 03:06 – 07:21

Woodward delves into specific actions taken by Trump that undermine democratic safeguards:

“The inspector generals have been wiped out by Trump... the concentration of political money, which inevitably, as we know, [is] corrupting” (03:06)

He emphasizes that the Constitution, an evolving experiment, is being rigorously tested by Trump’s assertive power grabs:

“There is no bigger test of the Constitution than Trump” (04:55)

Shift in Republican Party Dynamics
Timestamp: 06:11 – 07:21

Drawing parallels to the Watergate era, Woodward contrasts Nixon’s resignation, driven by bipartisan opposition, with Trump’s current support within the Republican Party:

“One big difference... Trump seems to have all of the Republicans in Congress supporting him” (06:11)

He anticipates a future clash between Trump’s executive actions and the enduring powers of Congress and the courts, underscoring the precarious balance of American governance.

---

Trump’s Use of Fear as a Tool of Power
Timestamp: 07:21 – 10:23

Woodward shares insights from his interviews with Trump, revealing the President’s reliance on fear to exert control:

“Real power is... fear... He scares people” (07:32)

He elaborates on how Trump employs fear both politically and personally, manipulating allies and opponents alike to maintain his influence.

Strategic Planning for Power Consolidation
Timestamp: 09:07 – 10:23

Discussing Trump’s strategic maneuvers since reclaiming office, Woodward notes the meticulous planning evident in Trump’s actions:

“He had four years of not being. He lost to Joe Biden... clearly those four years were spent some way planning and laying out, okay, what am I going to do when I get back in power” (09:07)

This strategic outlook underscores the rapid and organized implementation of policies aimed at consolidating executive power, often sidelining legal constraints.

---

Impact on America's Global Standing and Economy
Timestamp: 17:02 – 20:59

Woodward analyzes Trump’s aggressive economic policies, including trade isolationism and tariff impositions:

“Trade is bad. Now, this reflects a view that... Trade is inevitable and serves many purposes of many Americans. And the idea that we would eliminate trade and isolate ourselves is preposterous” (20:09)

He recounts a 2018 meeting where Trump dismissed economic advisors who cautioned against tariffs, highlighting the President’s unilateral approach to economic policy. Woodward expresses deep concern over the potential economic destabilization resulting from these isolationist strategies.

---

Press Freedom and Journalistic Retribution
Timestamp: 20:59 – 23:55

Addressing fears about press freedom under Trump, Woodward remains cautiously optimistic:

“We still have the First Amendment. I think the courts will uphold that... We can still operate as journalists” (21:44)

He acknowledges Trump’s antagonistic stance towards the media, labeling unfavorable reporting as “fake news,” but remains confident in the resilience of journalistic institutions supported by The Washington Post’s legacy.

Constitutional Guardrails and Journalistic Integrity
Timestamp: 22:47 – 23:55

Woodward emphasizes the inviolability of the Constitution in safeguarding press freedoms:

“The Constitution isn't a guardrail. It's an absolute. This is who we are. This is what we hold sacred” (21:44)

He praises the current support within The Washington Post, likening it to the backing received during the Watergate investigations, while acknowledging the increased challenges in maintaining unbiased reporting in a polarized environment.

---

Trump’s Personal Views and Leadership Style
Timestamp: 23:55 – 24:59

In concluding remarks, Woodward shares candid observations about Trump’s leadership ethos:

“The ideas are mine. I get people, they come in with ideas. But the ideas are mine” (23:55)

This revelation underscores Trump’s centralized decision-making approach, prioritizing personal authority over collaborative governance, which Woodward identifies as a fundamental shift from traditional presidential responsibilities focused on national interests.

---

Conclusion
Bob Woodward's insightful dialogue paints a concerning picture of President Trump's second term, marked by aggressive power consolidation, erosion of democratic institutions, and a confrontational stance towards both allies and the press. Drawing parallels to the Watergate era, Woodward warns of a potentially perilous path for American democracy, highlighting the urgent need for vigilant journalism and robust constitutional safeguards to navigate these turbulent times.

---

Notable Quotes

• Gerald Ford’s Declaration: “Our Constitution works. Our great republic is a government of laws and not of men.” (01:35)

• On Trump’s Use of Fear: “Real power is... fear. He scares people.” (07:32)

• On Constitutional Defense: “The Constitution isn't a guardrail. It's an absolute. This is who we are. This is what we hold sacred.” (21:44)

• On Trump’s Leadership: “The ideas are mine. I get people, they come in with ideas. But the ideas are mine.” (23:55)

---

Additional Information
For those interested in a deeper dive, the full conversation between Colby Bjekowicz and Bob Woodward is available on YouTube with a link provided in the show notes.

Transcript

[Colby Bjekowicz]

What would Bob Woodward think? That's the question I've been asking myself for weeks. Since President Trump took office for a second time, Bob Woodward, renowned Washington Post journalist who worked with Carl Bernstein to investigate and uncover the Watergate scandal. President Richard Nixon became the first and only US president to resign from office. In the 50 years since Watergate, Bob Woodward has continued to report on U.S. presidents. He's written books about the last 10, and he wrote three bestsellers about President Trump. And so I've been thinking, he had a front row seat to the massive transformations in our federal government following Watergate, and he spent hours talking to Trump when he was writing those books. I went to his house last week to ask him this question. What does he make of President Trump's approach to the presidency this time? This is Post Reports. I'm Colby ekowicz. It's Friday, March 28th. Two quick notes. We spoke with Bob before the News of the Signal Group chat. So that won't be in our conversation. And also if you're listening to this conversation, you can also watch it. It's on YouTube. And the link to that is in our show Notes. So here it is, my conversation with Bob Woodward.

[Bob Woodward]

Bob, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you.

So I want to start by playing something that I'm sure you've heard many times, but let's just take a listen.

Sure. Our Constitution works. Our great republic is a government of laws and not of men.

As you well know, that was Gerald Ford in the summer of 1974. I wonder, listening to that now, how that makes you feel, what you think.

Hearing those words, wow, there's 50 years of reflection and reporting for the Washington Post and for endless books. It was a very important time in American history. And a lot of people have kind of used it for political purposes one way or another. But the reality was that Nixon resigned because of Watergate and you say used.

It for political purposes. In what way?

Well, in the way of saying that, look, Nixon was a criminal or distorting it and saying, no, Nixon was railroaded out of office by a very aggressive press and by Democrats. And we now know from the tapes that establish conclusively that Nixon was a criminal.

When Gerald Ford says, you know, we're a great republic, we're a government of laws and not men, do you think that's still true right now, in this moment?

It seems less so. There's no, I mean, it is a very, very different time, obviously, because this is 50 years of history. I went back and got some notes and I want to be very precise about this because there were laws and changes that took place after 1974 when Nixon resigned, and one of them was a ten year term for the FBI director. The other was putting inspector generals in place in all of the agencies. And another was a very rigorous series of restraints on campaign contributions and expenditures. But the inspector generals have been wiped out by Trump. In a practical sense, the limit on campaign contributions and expenditures is gone because of the political action committees and the concentration of political money, which inevitably, as we know, corrupting. One of the things many of the founders said is that the Constitution is an experiment. It's continually evolving, changing, and being tested, frankly. And there's no bigger test of the Constitution than Trump.

So you brought up all the things that Trump has done to kind of dismantle what happened after Watergate. And I've been thinking, what is going through Bob Woodward's mind right now? And that was the question that led us here. So what is going through your mind as you watch Trump fire inspector generals, you know, try to fire the head of the government ethics office and the other things that you mentioned, and take.

Control in a very authoritarian way of the government and the traditions of democracy.

Right. So what have you been thinking?

Well, I'm worried. I think everyone, even those who support it, should be worried because it's done offline. So much of it, it is Trump just asserting himself, taking on the role of the courts, taking on the role of Congress. And the courts in Congress still have their power. And so we are entering a moment where there is going to be a clash of those traditions and laws and Trump's will.

One big difference that I've been thinking about is that Nixon resigned when his party turned against him, when they couldn't, when the Republicans in Congress weren't going to defend him any longer. And yet Trump seems to have all of the Republicans in Congress supporting him. I mean, what is it going to take to put a check on the executive if the Republicans in Congress aren't willing to do that?

Well, the Republicans have the majority, and they are supportive of Trump and what he's doing at this point. I think it will come a point where Republicans are going to say, is there too much assertion of power by Trump?

What do you think it'll take?

Well, because there's been a lot already. That's why I like journalism. We don't have to do the future. We do what's happening and what happened, and who knows? I certainly. But there is a catastrophic confrontation and clash building right now.

Sabab you've written three books on President Trump. You've spent more time with him than most. What are the impressions of him that maybe people don't know? What did you learn about him during all the time that you spent with him?

Well, in one of my interviews with him, we're talking about power, which, of course, is an important issue in politics and any institution. And Trump said, real power is. I hate to use the word, but the word is fear. And he uses. He scares people. Fear is a method. And the first book I did on him uses that one word title, fear, because it's a method and it's Trump's practice.

He uses it with the electorate, too. He scares people with his rhetoric about immigrants and Democrats and a deep state. But how else does he use fear?

Well, he uses it personally. He will call people and berate them. I mean, these days, there are lots of reports of Trump calling Republicans and say, get on board with what I am doing and what I'm pushing.

And they're really just that afraid of him.

Well, they're afraid of him, and they also, lots of them agree with him.

Knowing him as well as you know him. When he won reelection in November, what did you think was gonna happen in the second term, or what were you worried about happening in this second term?

Well, first of all, he had four years of not being. He lost to Joe Biden, and these were years to. For him to kind of clean his guns, get the ammunition in line, and what he's done and the push and the activism, clearly those four years were spent some way planning and laying out, okay, what am I going to do when I get back in power? So it's very organized. Lots of executive orders, lots of doing what Trump wants, rather than, I would argue, what the law says.

Yeah.

[Colby Bjekowicz]

I mean, are you surprised by how.

[Bob Woodward]

Quickly it's all happened? I mean, he's only been in office now a little over two months, but.

When you have four years to plan, in a way, yes, it's happening quickly. But this is an implementation of a strategy of implementing his will.

Is that a strategy you feel like he laid out for you when you were interviewing him? Did you know to the extent, obviously, he wants power and he operates through fear, but did you know to the extent that he would push for power in the ways that he has?

No. And quite honestly, I was not sure after he. He lost in 2020 that he. There would be a comeback. And he has staged a comeback, political comeback, very successfully.

What does that say about where America is right now?

Well, America is, we all know, is so divided, but. And it's narrowly divided. But Trump and the Republicans control not only the presidency, but the Congress. And the question is going to be, and it's surfacing daily, what are the courts going to do? And there is so many of these issues are in the courts. Again, it's, we don't know that future.

You mentioned how divided we are as a nation right now. Compare this America to the America 50 years ago when Watergate happened.

Easier to describe the creation of the universe. I mean, there's obviously a big difference. What happened 50 years ago is there was a Republican Party that was independent of President Nixon, and the Republican Party eventually led by Barry Goldwater, the conservative senator from Arizona, to hold Nixon accountable. And it was a very stunning assertion of congressional and Republican power. And there's a meeting I've described in my books where Nixon met with the Republican leadership and Barry Goldwater and Nixon, this is at a point where he was going to be impeached, charged. And the question was, what would happen in a Senate trial and he would need more than one third to make sure he was not impeached, not thrown out of office, requiring two thirds. And in a discussion interview with Goldwater, Goldwater recounted how he and the Republican leaders went to Nixon. And Nixon said, well, what's going to happen in a Senate trial? And Goldwater said, Mr. President, you have only five votes and one of them is not mine. And the next day, Nixon announced he was resigning.

We saw President Trump go through two impeachments that obviously didn't result in him getting charged by the Senate. Could it happen today?

Again, you know, we're trying, and I think we get, those of us in the news media get trap ourselves by trying to predict the future and say, this is going to happen or this is likely, or this is unlikely. We're in very fluid times. So who knows? I don't for sure. I mean, look at what he's asserting himself now, all these executive orders. I mean, he has stood his ground and said, this is what I'm going to do. I am shrinking. He and Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, his sidekick, are cutting the government. And look at what we are seeing. I mean, in some cases, it's done, as people have said, with the chainsaw. And we know from our personal lives or businesses that when you have to cut, that's a really tricky undertaking. And you need to very carefully spell out what you're going to do and do it very slowly and be very certain that the impact is that they're not secondary events that you trigger with. And look at what's going on now. I think it's one of the most dangerous times this country has ever faced.

[Colby Bjekowicz]

After the break, what Bob Woodward thinks.

[Bob Woodward]

Trump's end goal could be.

[Colby Bjekowicz]

And I ask him about the President's relationship with journalists. We'll be right back.

[GoodRx Advertisement]

Are you looking to spend less on prescriptions? The best way to do that is to check out Goodrx and stop overpaying for your medications. With Goodrx, you can find huge savings on everything from GLP1s to heart medication to remedies for your allergies and so much more. GoodRx is free and easy to use. Just search for any prescription on the Goodrx website or app, get your coupon and show it to the pharmacist. In some cases, you can save up to 80% at pharmacies near you, including Walmart, Walgreens, CVS, Publix, and many more. Best of all, GoodRx works whether you have insurance or not. And even if you have insurance, GoodRx could beat your co. Pay price. I constantly suggest Goodrx to friends and family. They can't stop raving about how easy it was to find discounts. So next time you need a prescription, you should go to Goodrx too. For simple, smart savings on your everyday prescriptions, check GoodRx. Go to GoodRx.com reports. That's GoodRx.com reports.

[Bob Woodward]

Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to Mario Bistro.

[Venmo Advertisement]

The special tonight is the beef carpaccio. With the Venmo debit card, you can turn the basketball game tickets your friends paid you back for into a romantic dinner that you can earn up to 5% cash back on. Use your Venmo balance to pay for the things you love to do. Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. pursuant to license by MasterCard International, Inc. Terms apply. DOSH cashback terms apply.

[Bob Woodward]

What do you think Trump's end goal is in all of this? In the sledgehammering, the government, putting tariffs on our allies like Canada. Like, what is the, what is his big end goal as president?

Well, his end goal is, and it looks like he wants to destroy the economy. And that is a very dangerous undertaking. I mean, he states the motive as very positive, but look at what people are going through, having very negative impact. Yeah, I went through some notes, if I may. An example here. Want to go back seven years?

Okay.

To 2018. Some reporting I did. It's January 2018. Trump is in the Oval Office with his economic advisers. Now, at this moment, Trump wanted tariffs like he wants right now in 2025. And his chief economic adviser in the White House was Gary Cohen. And Cohen is somebody who'd been president of Goldman Sachs, had been at that firm for 27 years. And if a Republican president needed economic advisor, Gary Cohen was the person to do that. And Trump says, I want tariffs seven years ago. And Cohen says, tariffs risk roiling the economy and jeopardizing the stock market gains. And he says, as economists now say, that tariffs are a tax on American consumers. He's quite right. So Trump doesn't like this and says to Cohen, you're a globalist. Now, this is a term we don't hear these days, but globalist is somebody who takes into account the international repercussions of decisions. And Trump says to Cohen, I don't care what you think anymore, Gare. And he shoos. This is in the Oval. Shoos him out of the meeting and go sit on the couch. You're almost being disciplined. Other words, Trump is thinking about the country only.

Right.

Wants to rip it out of the international frame that we exist in.

And he doesn't have people like Gary Cohn around him this time to try to rein him in. Yeah, I mean, how. How dangerous is that that you don't even have. It doesn't appear that there are people in the Oval Office this time around pushing back in that way.

Not that we know of. And I think that's intentional.

Y.

Somebody in the White House gave me what Trump had written out in his own hand. Trade is bad. Now, this reflects a view that, oh, it's all about only the United States, and trade is somehow a poison. Trade is necessary. Trade is good. But here is Trump saying trade is bad. Trade is inevitable and serves many purposes of many Americans. And the idea that we would eliminate trade and isolate ourselves is preposterous.

How worried should journalists be about retribution compared to maybe what you faced during the Nixon era by the White House, by the Trump administration?

Well, Trump's made it clear he calls the journalists, that he doesn't like fake news.

Yeah.

And we still have the First Amendment. And I think the courts will uphold that. I think the courts, it's in the Constitution. It's part of the tradition. And I know as a journalist, I'm glad it's there. I think it's very important.

I think people are really worried about the guardrails of the Constitution and whether they'll hold.

Well, I don't look the word guardrails. I mean, the Constitution isn't a guardrail. It's an absolute. This is who we are. This is what we hold sacred. And certainly one of those is the First Amendment is freedom of expression. So we can still operate as journalists. I think we need to talk about myself, work harder and really dig in and try to break into it. I mean, 50 years ago in the Nixon era, Carl Bernstein and I were able to break into it. We were young, had the full support of the Washington Post, Katherine Graham, the owner, Ben Bradley, the editor. I think the Post reporters have that same support now.

You do think that?

I do.

Okay.

But there are some constraints being put on. I don't see that. I mean, it has had an impact on the opinion side. I don't see that it has curtailed coverage on the news side, but we'll see.

Yeah. Trump said the other day, Jeff Bezos is doing a real job with the Washington Post. I don't know what that means, but I don't know how you take that.

Well, I guess he likes some of it. Trump does, but I think it's been very aggressive and very sound, and I know of no constraints being put on the news side by side owners. But, you know, that will come clear with time.

Yeah. Hopefully it stays that way.

Yes.

So, Bob, are there other conversations that you had with Trump while you were reporting on him that kind of illuminate his view, his worldview, his personal view.

How he runs the country in 2020? In one of the interviews I did with Trump, he just said, and I'm asking about the process of how you make decisions. And he said, I get people, they come in with ideas. But the ideas are mine, Bob. The ideas are mine. Want to know something? Everything is mine. End quote. Everything is mine. No, it's not. Holding the office of president is an honor, a great, a grave responsibility, and to think of it in personal terms is inevitable. But also, what are the interests of the country?

Bob, thank you so much for having us in your beautiful home.

Thank you.

[Colby Bjekowicz]

That's it for Post Reports. Thanks for listening. Today's episode was produced by Sabi Robinson. It was edited by Renita Jablonski and Rena Flores and mixed by Sam Baer. Thanks to the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library. Special thanks to our video colleagues, Zach Purser Brown, David Bruns, Ross Godwin, Randolph Smith, Tom Legros, Dan Misch, Lauren Sachs and Micah Gelman. I'm Cole Bjekowicz. We'll be back Monday with more stories from the Washington Post.

[Bob Woodward]

Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to Mario's Bistro.

[Venmo Advertisement]

The special tonight is the beef carpaccio. With the Venmo Debit card, you can turn the basketball game tickets your friends paid you back for into a romantic dinner that you can earn up to 5% cash back on. Use your Venmo balance to pay for the things you love to do. Visit Venmo Me Debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp Bank N.A. pursuant to license by MasterCard International, Inc. Terms apply. DOSH Cash Back Terms apply.