A (3:12)

Yeah. So I spoke to people who were just, you know, largely fed up and kind of incredulous at the scale and volume of how many requests they were getting. I talked to Ross Presser from New Jersey, and he was getting fed up every time he opened his HelloFresh app. Literally, the second you finish entering your password and log in, it's like, review your last order. Because he'd just go in to edit his weekly order and instead just got bombarded with, like, question after question. Was your delivery okay? But did you like the meal? You have anything to say about the meal? Can you post pictures of it on social media? Oh, God, that's a lot of requests. And he's just trying to order dinner, you know, like, that's a lot.

C (3:54)

Yeah.

A (3:55)

One woman in Canada named Anna Fitzpatrick. She was sort of mildly amused at having to rate all of her transactions with her local cannabis shop. I buy weed. I get a text after asking me.

C (4:05)

To rate my interaction. And that's just so funny for me because, like, when I started smoking weed.

A (4:10)

It was just some guy at a party. It was just. But there was another guy in Long island who I thought this was, like, maybe the best story I heard about it. His name is Corey Lonis. He is a lighting technician in Long island. And he told me about a time when he was still delirious coming out of cochlear implant surgery, and he got an email prompt asking him to review his stay at the hospital. A day after my surgery, I got a Please review your experience at the.

B (4:40)

Hospital where he drilled a hole in.

A (4:42)

Your skull and put an implant in my brain. Painkillers. And I can't hear anything. And delirious. And they're like, hey, how do you like your stay? Oh, my gosh. How many stars did you give it? I gave them five stars because I love. I love the doctor. And I came out on live. That's great.

C (5:01)

I mean, I'm not gonna lie. I've been in the hospital and I was hounded to give a review. I received a letter in the mail and a phone call by a human being really wanting to know.

A (5:12)

Like I said, I got a request to do a Google review of an orthopedic surgeon that had recently operated on my knee, actually. And I was like, hey, just. I'm writing a story about this. Can you tell me a little bit more about why you asked me to Google review? And my surgeon was like, wonderful about that. He was a very good sport and said, it's largely about Google results. When you have a higher rating on your Google page, you will show up higher in search results on Google. Right. And I did look and their Google rating is very high. And they're one of the first orthopedic offices that do come up when you look for orthopedic surgeon in my area.

C (5:46)

Oh, oh my gosh. You know what this reminds me of Ashley, a friend of mine, her uncle immigrated to the United States and when he decided to like Americanize his name, he picked a name where it was like started first and last name, started with an A. He was a dentist so he would be first in the phone book. That's what this Google review is. It's the new phone book changing.

A (6:09)

Isn't it so funny? Yeah, it really is. And it does make you think about how Google reviews have just reshaped the entire service and transactional economy in a way. Right.

C (6:21)

I'm trying to remember a time when I wasn't constantly being asked to review everything I did. How did we end up here? How did we land on this five point scale for reviewing everything?

A (6:31)

The five point scale I really cannot speak to unfortunately, but I do think Google results play a huge role here. Um, just because, you know, it's like we're saying it, it is, it is similar to being the first page of the phone book. It is similar to being, you know, the top of the Alphabet. And I guess when I think about it, it's like how did I wind up at this orthopedist's office in the first place? Probably because it was the first one on the top of my Google results. So yeah, I, I, I do think that's like the biggest thing is the Google results, you know, contribute to the success or contribute to, I mean it contributes first to the amount of traffic that business gets. Right. Like I spoke to a couple of folks in Colorado, a married couple, Chris and Sarah Jerrick. And Sarah owns a liquor store in Boulder, Colorado. And for her it's all about these Google results and Google ratings. Like she made the very good point that when you are, let's say new in town to Boulder or just passing through and you want to grab a bottle of wine, like you might drive an extra five or 10 minutes to go to the shop that has four and a half stars on Google and avoid the one that has 2.5 and obviously, you know, it's a small business and every purchase counts. Like those are slim margins that most business like that operate on. So every customer makes a difference.

C (7:39)

Yeah, I mean I'M not gonna lie. As much as I'm complaining about the reviews, I rely on them. But sometimes I wonder about the authenticity of these reviews. And I wonder, are people ever offered free stuff in exchange for a good review? How common is that? Did you come across that in your reporting?

A (7:56)

I both came across it and also learned it is illegal.

C (7:59)

Oh, it is illegal.

A (8:01)

Actually, you know what, let me be clear here. Like, it is perfectly legal to offer incentives for reviewing a business is illegal to offer an incentive for a specifically positive review.

C (8:12)

Wow. That really just speaks to how powerful these, these reviews are and how thirsty businesses are for them. Really?

A (8:18)

Absolutely.

C (8:22)

After the break, how reviews have reshaped not only businesses, but also how we all shop and live. We'll be right back.

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C (10:24)

Okay, so Ashley, it sounds like these reviews, they can have a big impact for a small business with a small margin, like the liquor store example, but especially with bigger companies. I don't know. Sometimes leaving a rating can feel like you're screaming into the void. So when you were doing this reporting, did you Talk with anyone from a bigger company who said that they actually considered these reviews.

A (10:51)

Yes, that was overwhelmingly the response that I got was, as much as it can feel like you are reviewing directly into a void on the other end, there are frequently, if not virtually always, humans on the other end looking at it. And one thing that surprised me was I talked to a staffer from the Amtrak market research team, someone named Phil Arnheim, and Amtrak was a really fascinating case because it feels like one of those national big corporations that people sometimes feel a little bit silly reviewing. Like, why would you need my help? Why would you need my feedback?

C (11:21)

Right.

A (11:22)

But when I talked to him, he pointed out that that data helps them make all kinds of decisions and improvements to the customer service. Like, Amtrak recently overhauled its alert system for when trains are delayed. Like, it used to just be you'd get an email that said your train was delayed and that was it. But now they will tell you, like, when you'll arrive on the new schedule, if and when they expect it to be resolved or changed back. And all that info arrives via email, text, and push notification. Now, because people did kind of give that feedback of like, hey, I'm not getting this info in time. And their surveys also, like, help them decide what foods to keep in stock or like, the men to keep in the dining cars. Like, it's how they know how to make sure they have enough gummy bears and M&Ms, which are always very popular. And it's also how they decided to keep steak and also lobster Mac and cheese available to first class riders.

C (12:06)

You can get steak on an Amtrak train. What am I doing? I'm not riding the right car.

A (12:11)

It's one particular train line and it's only the first class car, but it's a customer favorite. Apparently everybody loves it.

C (12:16)

Yeah, I mean, I know we're complaining a lot about these reviews, but is there something almost like democratic in allowing just everyday folk to have an opportunity to chime in on how a massive business functions?

A (12:30)

Yes. And I think that's like, that's something that I left this story in, this reporting experience thinking about is, you know, as annoying as all this can be, it's kind of nice to have the opportunity to say something in a public forum about the experience you had. You know, obviously there are downsides to all of this. Yes, it can feel dystopian. Yes, it can feel a little bit surreal to be asked these things. And, you know, there's also a school of thought that, you know, all these reviews, we do stop us Be from asking for a problem to be resolved in the moment. Like, we wait till after the interaction to be like, actually, that was bad.

C (13:04)

Yeah. Also, like, on this idea of, like, how democratic or not it is, I do wonder in some cases, like, let's say I'm looking for, like, a Chinese restaurant or a Vietnamese restaurant, and I look at the ratings and then I look at the reviews, and people are complaining about the customer service. But I'm like, these are, like, the best restaurants. They have the best food. And I wonder if that sort of, like, division in ratings and reviews is something that you've come across as well.

A (13:29)

Oh, absolutely. And, you know, I live in New York, where we hold those hole in the wall restaurants where someone just sort of screams out a number at you and you have to run away with your bag. We hold those in very high esteem. Those are a beloved part of the landscape here. Right.

C (13:42)

I'm, like, skeptical if the rating is too high sometimes I'm like, no, thank you.

A (13:46)

Yeah. There are flaws in the system. There are real flaws.

C (13:50)

Ashley.

A (13:51)

Yeah.

C (13:53)

What is the restaurant or spot to eat that you've discovered that you're actually concerned that other people may discover, like, it could get too popular and it would be harder and harder to get a table there.

A (14:08)

Yes. There is a place in my neighborhood that I love so much, and it's like, I want to give it just enough business that it stays in business, but not so much. There's a line around the block, so I'm very careful with who I talk about this with.

C (14:20)

Okay, I get that. What if we just bleep the name in the episode so we don't put the business on blast and you can still go to it.

A (14:28)

It's. I'm seeing it has a 4.8, but it has 150 reviews, which is, like, in my opinion, like, the sweet spot.

C (14:37)

Wait, tell me, why is that the sweet spot? The 4.8 to 150 ratio?

A (14:41)

Just because it's like, if it has, like, 5,000, then it was like on Eater or it was on the Infatuation. Right. It's like, everybody knows about it. Right. But if it's like, 150, it's like enough people walked by it in the neighborhood and were like, oh, that looks good, and went in that. I trust that rating because it's like, you know, if it has five ratings, that's not enough. If it has 5,000, that's maybe too many.

C (15:03)

This is news you can use.

A (15:04)

I like this. Yeah. I like this range. I like this ratio of 4.8 stars to 151 reviews.

C (15:09)

One thing I sometimes like to do is I will look at the reviews and I will look for the drama where the business is responding to a complaint within the review apparatus. And they're like, actually. And they, like, tell the other side of the story. And there is so much drama sometimes in these review comments, it's incredible.

A (15:29)

Oh, my God. Yeah.

C (15:30)

And then also, I'm just thinking of, you know, the universe of things that are rated. I know movies get rated, restaurants get rated. We've talked about that a bit here. Books also get rated on platforms like Goodreads, and that's a platform where readers can rate and review the books they read. Did you talk to anyone about how ratings and reviews can impact our cultural consumption?

A (15:54)

Anna, the woman who talked about her experience buying weed. She's also an author based in Toronto. And when her first book came out is like kind of when she started to think more critically and become more critical herself of, you know, rating systems that ask you to. To boil down a whole experience or distill down a whole experience into a single digit.

C (16:13)

Right.

A (16:13)

I'm paraphrasing, but she seemed to kind of hate the idea that the success of her book could be affected by people reading it and then just boiling down. Like their entire portfolio of feelings they felt reading it. And all the sensations that they had following her along on this story could just be flattened down into a single digit and fed into an averaging machine. And then people would rely only on that for whether it was a good book. But there's a whole other discussion to be had here. I have seen some other stories about this where certain people who rely a lot on reviews now have their own personal policy for. Well, I'm actually looking for something that's about a 4.2 to a 4.6. Right. Because if there are too many five star ratings, like, maybe it feels like those are fake or bots or illegally obtained.

C (17:00)

Yeah. Like, how confident can we be that reviews are legit?

A (17:04)

Yes, exactly. That's always a good question. And there's always a grain of salt to be taken.

C (17:07)

It makes me wonder, who are these people? Like, do I even trust their taste? And my mind immediately goes to the difference between that experience and the experience of me reading a criticism who I know, and I know their taste and I trust them and their review of something. Did this experience of digging into this make you think about the role of, like, cultural critics and different types of critics and the roles that they play?

A (17:29)

It really did. And I think that first came up when I was having that conversation with Anna, who had kind of expressed some feelings about the Goodreads rating and its effect on her book's performance. I think that was part of what she was saying was, you know, it made Anna, you know, think more about the difference between critical reviews, you know, people who are much more trained and experienced in how to talk about these things versus just a layman's like, here's my impression of this book. Here's what I thought. It also, I think reporting this story, I heard someone express a similar sentiment. And I think this is what I've come away with, is it does feel like everything should have a Rotten Tomatoes style. Two different readings where it's like, here's what it got from critics and here's what it got from the general public.

C (18:09)

Yeah. Because sometimes there's a gulf in that.

A (18:12)

Oh, wow.

C (18:12)

That is, you know, Google, are you listening?

A (18:15)

Yeah. So Airbnb would have Airbnb critics and also.

C (18:18)

Yeah.

A (18:19)

Guest ratings.

C (18:20)

Yeah. So, Ashley, I'm curious, after you just spent time thinking more deeply about this and those questions that you laid out for yourself, how are you thinking about this phenomenon and what it says about how we move through the world?

A (18:34)

It really drove home to me how much we all are depending on Google search results and Google reviews like it. To me, I don't think I realized how much that affected, you know, the restaurants I chose to go to or the orthopedist I chose to go to, or the vendors I hired for my wedding. All of these things kind of impacted my own consumer spending decisions more than I realized.

C (19:02)

Well, Ashley, I'm giving this conversation with you 5 stars.

A (19:07)

Thanks a lot.

C (19:08)

Would have again. Would have again.

A (19:10)

Absolutely. Would recommend to a friend.

C (19:13)

Thanks so much.

A (19:14)

Yes. Thank you. This was so fun.

C (19:21)

Ashley Fetters Malloy is a feature reporter based in New York City. Speaking of reviews, and I understand the irony of saying this right now, we would, in fact, love your review. You can leave us a rating on Spotify or a rating and review on Apple Podcasts. We really would love to hear your feedback. And this does help other people discover the show, especially if it's five stars. And I wanted to tell you about another place where you can sound off and tell us what you think specifically about movies. There's a social media platform called letterboxd, and the Washington Post has an account there. So if there's a movie you can't stop thinking about, find us there and tell us what you think. You'll also find reviews from our critics, including ones from the archives. You can find this@letterboxd that's spelled letter b o x d.com Washington Post or find a link in our show notes. That's it for Post reports. Thanks for listening. Today's show was produced by Thomas Liu, with help from Peter Bresnan and Rennie Stranovsky. It was mixed by Shawn Carter and edited by Ted Muldoon, with help from Maggie Penman. I'm Elahei Izadi. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from the Washington.

B (20:55)

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