Why many people on death row will never be executed

Summary

Post Reports: Why Many People on Death Row Will Never Be Executed

Episode Release Date: December 2, 2024
Hosts: Martine Powers and Elahe Izadi
Produced by: The Washington Post

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Introduction

In the December 2, 2024 episode of Post Reports, hosts Martine Powers and Elahe Izadi delve into the perplexing reality that many individuals sentenced to death in the United States may never face execution. The episode, titled "Why Many People on Death Row Will Never Be Executed," explores the intricate dynamics of the American death penalty system, featuring insights from Mark Berman, a Washington Post reporter covering law enforcement and criminal justice.

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The Case of John Lesko and Michael Travaglia

The episode opens with a retrospective look at the late 1970s Pittsburgh crime spree committed by Michael Travaglia and John Lesko, infamously known as the "kill for thrill slayings" due to the absence of a clear motive. In 1979 and 1980, the duo murdered four individuals, including Leonard Miller, a young African American police officer. Despite initial swift justice, with both men confessing and being sentenced to death, four decades later, only one of the perpetrators, Michael Travaglia, has died of natural causes, while John Lesko remains on death row.

Key Moments:

• [00:01] Elahe Izadi: Introduces the crime spree and the subsequent death sentences of Travaglia and Lesko.
• [01:04] William Kerr: "Leonard Miller was genuine. He was our first black police officer, African American police officer."
• [01:11] Jim Claussen: Shares personal grief, "Leonard was a real close, real good, close friend of mine."

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Mark Berman on the Death Penalty System

Mark Berman discusses the broader implications of Lesko's case, highlighting a significant mismatch in the death penalty system: over 2,000 individuals are on death row nationally, but executions are exceedingly rare, with only a few dozen carried out each year.

Notable Insights:

• [02:15] Mark Berman: "There are more than 2,000 people sitting on death row in America, but only a couple of dozen people are executed a year."
• [03:15] Lesko's Extended Appeals: Lesko's multiple appeals have repeatedly stalled his execution, reflecting a systemic issue where legal processes extend the time inmates spend awaiting execution indefinitely.
• [03:48] Pennsylvania's Moratorium: Pennsylvania, for nearly a decade, has halted executions, with none carried out since 1999.

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Evolution of the Death Penalty in America

Berman outlines the historical trajectory of the death penalty in the U.S., noting a peak in the 1980s and 1990s with increasing death row populations and frequent executions. However, since the 2000s, there has been a marked decline due to changing public opinions, logistical challenges, and legal concerns.

Key Points:

• [05:04] Historical Peak: In the 1990s, executions averaged nearly two per week.
• [05:27] Decline Begins: The 2000s saw a reduction in both death sentences and executions, with more states abolishing the death penalty or halting executions.
• [06:21] Contemporary Decline: "This year is going to end with fewer than 30 executions, down from nearly 100 at the end of the 1990s."

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Cultural Shifts and Public Opinion

The episode highlights a significant cultural shift regarding capital punishment. Public support has dwindled from approximately 80% in the mid-1990s to around 53% in recent years. Concerns include the fairness of sentencing, financial costs, and the moral implications of potential wrongful executions.

Notable Quotes:

• [05:50] Mark Berman: "Public support for the death penalty has declined. Gallup polling found that in the mid-1990s, about 4 in 5 Americans supported the death penalty. As of last year, that was down to a little more than 50%."
• [06:44] Robin Davis: Emphasizes the financial burden: "Why should we... continue to be burdened with that cost?"

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Perspectives from Victims' Families

Berman interviews individuals closely connected to Leonard Miller, including William Kerr, Robin Davis, and Jim Claussen. Their evolving perspectives reflect the complex emotions surrounding the death penalty.

Key Discussions:

• William Kerr’s Change of Heart:
  • [12:14] William Kerr: "I came to the conclusion about 10 years ago that I would more be in favor of life sentence without parole."
• Jim Claussen’s Stance:
  • [13:06] Jim Claussen: "I still stand for the death penalty... We know who was guilty carry it out."
  • [13:38] Jim Claussen: Acknowledges personal pain: "I do not think I'd feel any better if it were carried out."
• Robin Davis on Costs:
  • [14:02] Robin Davis: Criticizes the legal system's financial strain: "Why should we continue to be burdened with that cost?"

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John Lesko's Perspective

Mark Berman shares his encounter with John Lesko, who maintains a composed demeanor despite his prolonged wait on death row. Lesko acknowledges the emotional weight of his case but remains realistic about the potential for execution.

Notable Insights:

• [18:22] Lesko’s Composure: Discusses his case "almost as if he's discussing something happening to somebody else."
• [18:48] Knowledge of Execution Possibility: "He knows he could be executed... although he does not want it to happen."

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Future of the Death Penalty

The episode explores potential future developments, including political influences and policy proposals aimed at either resuming executions or abolishing the death penalty altogether.

Key Points:

• Governor Actions: States like Louisiana are pushing to reinstate executions by adding new methods.
• Commutation Efforts: Advocates against the death penalty are urging outgoing officials to commute death sentences to prevent future executions.
• Political Shifts: With President-elect Trump, who previously supported capital punishment, there is speculation about a possible resumption of federal executions.

Notable Quotes:

• [22:24] Mark Berman: "President elect Trump has not specifically said whether his administration will resume executions, but it is expected that it likely will."

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Conclusion

Post Reports concludes by underscoring the unresolved tensions within the American justice system concerning the death penalty. Both supporters and opponents grapple with the ethical, financial, and emotional implications of maintaining death row without executing inmates. The episode leaves listeners contemplating the future of capital punishment in the U.S. and its alignment with evolving societal values.

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Additional Stories Mentioned

While primarily focused on the death penalty, the episode briefly touches upon other newsworthy topics:

1. Presidential Pardon Controversy:

   • President Biden pardoned his son, Hunter Biden, leading to scrutiny and defense from the White House.
   • [24:31] White House Press Secretary Karine Jean Pierre: Defends the decision stating the President believes in justice and that Hunter was "singled out politically."

2. Discovery of the Oldest Country Music Recording:

   • Archiphone Records unveiled the earliest known country music recording by Louis Vu from 1891.
   • [26:19] Rich Martin, Archiphone Records Co-founder: Discusses the importance of reclaiming the heritage of black artists in country music.

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Produced by: Ariel Plotnick
Assistance by: Sabi Robinson, Renny Srinofsky
Mixed by: Justin Garish
Edited by: Maggie Penman, Monica Campbell
Special Thanks: Efrain Hernandez Jr, Rishma Kirpalani

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For further exploration of this topic and more in-depth reporting, listeners are encouraged to tune into Post Reports and follow The Washington Post's coverage on criminal justice issues.

Transcript

[Elahe Izadi]

In late 1979 and early 1980, a series of awful crimes took place outside of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Four people were killed. One of them was a young police officer. Some in the media called these murders the kill for thrill slayings because there was seemingly no motive. Michael Travaglia and John Lesko became known as the kill for thrill murderers after their heinous crime spree in late 1979 and early 19. The killing ended when some Pittsburgh police detectives quickly got hot on their trail. Police soon found the men responsible for the slayings, John Lesko and Michael Travaglia. They confessed, and they were sentenced to the death penalty. Friends of the victims felt like this was justice, especially friends of the police officer who was killed, Leonard Miller. Killing an officer was a shocking crime, and they felt like the death penalty was justified.

[William Kerr]

Leonard Miller was genuine. He was our first black police officer, African American police officer.

[Jim Claussen]

Leonard was a real close, real good, close friend of mine. And I know I get choked up that it hurts me to think back the day that this happened.

[Robin Davis]

I mean, we cried for days and days and days.

[Elahe Izadi]

But 40 years later, the sentence, the death penalty, still hasn't been carried out. One of Leonard's killers died of natural causes, and the other, John Lesko, is still alive. He's been waiting on death row for most of his life.

[Mark Berman]

John Lesko's sentence has elapsed alongside essentially the entire modern arc of the American death penalty.

[Elahe Izadi]

That's Mark Berman. He covers law enforcement and criminal justice for the Post. A couple of years ago, Mark started thinking about this mismatch, that there are more than 2,000 people sitting on death row in America, but only a couple of dozen people are executed a year.

[Mark Berman]

And I just kept getting stuck on the idea that those numbers don't line up. At some point, a lot of these people, it seems like, are probably going to die waiting to be executed.

[Elahe Izadi]

From the newsroom of the Washington Post, this is Post Reports. I'm Elahe izadi. It's Monday, December 2nd. Today, what it actually means to be sentenced to death in the United States and how inmates and victims, loved ones, have been left in a state of limbo that can stretch on indefinitely, raising fundamental questions about the American justice system. My co host, Martine Powers, spoke to Mark. She's gonna take it from here.

[Martine Powers]

Okay, so, Mark, we were talking about John Lesko's case and the fact that 40 years after his sentence, he's still alive. He has not been executed. Why is that? Why has he been on death row for decades?

[Mark Berman]

Well, one of the things that happened was once he was sentenced to death, he appealed, and he filed a number of appeals over the years. His death sentence was actually thrown out, and he was given a new sentencing portion of his trial in 1995, and he was sentenced to death a second time. He has continued to appeal. He's continued to fight it. Five different times, Pennsylvania has scheduled an execution for him, and all five times, it has been stayed, it has been called off as he continues to appeal and to file at the same time. Pennsylvania is not carrying out executions. The state has had a moratorium in place for almost a decade and has not actually carried out an execution since 1999.

[Martine Powers]

Wow. So in basically 25 years, Pennsylvania has not executed anyone, Even though folks like Lesco are supposedly, like, waiting for execution nationally. How common is that, that a person is on death row, but that there's no imminent plan to actually execute them?

[Mark Berman]

It's very common. What we found in our reporting, and we spent a long time digging into the death row status of every state, we've spent a long time digging into the death row rosters of every state, and what we found is that more than half of people on death row today in America are in a state where executions are on hold, are paused due to an order from the governor or a court order or something else that's going on, where they essentially have stopped executions for the time being.

[Martine Powers]

And tell me more about why. It seems that carrying out executions has just become more difficult.

[Mark Berman]

One issue that has arisen in the last decade or so is that states that use lethal injection, which is the primary way executions are carried out, have struggled to obtain the drugs needed. Drug companies have said, we do not want our drugs used in executions. In other states, officials have said they have concerns with the death penalty, and they have stopped executions as a result of those.

[Martine Powers]

And clearly, this is different from how it was in the past. Can you kind of paint a picture of how this has evolved over the last few decades in this country?

[Mark Berman]

The modern American death penalty sort of began in the 1970s. The Supreme Court struck down capital punishment in the 70s and then reinstated it. After that, Death row populations really just began to explode. I mean, in the 1980s and 90s, you saw death row populations double and double again. Executions became increasingly common. You know, at one point, this country had nearly one person per day sentenced.

[Martine Powers]

To death a day. Wow.

[Mark Berman]

And the country was carrying out an average of nearly two executions every week. That was at the end of the 1990s. Starting in the 2000s, there was a decline nationwide. Death sentences became increasingly less common. Executions became increasingly less common. States began abolishing the death penalty or simply stopped carrying out executions. While a major decision on the death.

[Martine Powers]

Penalty in the first state, Delaware Supreme.

[Mark Berman]

Court, decided the law is unconstitutional. Cheers broke out as New Hampshire struck the death penalty from state law with a stroke of his pen. Democratic Governor Ralph Northam, making Virginia the first state in the south to. To abolish the death penalty. And we've reached the point where we are today, where this year is going to end with. For the 10th consecutive year, this country will have fewer than 30 executions, down from nearly 100 at the end of the 1990s.

[Martine Powers]

And tell me a little bit more about that cultural shift, because it sounds like for states that had previously been carrying out executions, some of why they're doing less now is for logistical reasons. You mentioned the difficulties that they've had getting the drugs that are necessary to perform lethal injections. But also, I think Americans writ large feel a little bit more mixed about capital punishment.

[William Kerr]

Yeah.

[Mark Berman]

One thing we've seen is that over the last 30 years, public support for the death penalty has declined. Gallup polling found that in the mid-1990s, about 4 in 5Americans supported the death penalty. As of last year, that was down to a little more than 50%. It was 53%, which is still a majority of people supporting it, but far lower than it used to be. You've had a number of officials across the country sort of say, we have concerns about the fact that this is not handed down in a fair way. We have concerns about the fact that it's wasteful, that it costs a lot of money, and that they have concerns about exonerations and innocent people being put on death row. And so they've either hit pause or tried to abolish the death penalty.

[Martine Powers]

So what you're describing here, to me sounds arguably like a good development, like if you're a person, and I guess this is, as you said, roughly half of Americans who either don't believe in capital punishment or have concerns about capital punishment. If you're one of these people, then looking at the landscape right now, the fact that fewer people are being executed, and yes, you have 2,000 people roughly who are in death row, but it seems like many of them won't actually be executed. That seems like a positive development, a sign that this country has more mercy for those people. What's the problem here?

[Mark Berman]

Reporting this story, I talked to a number of people who support and oppose the death penalty. People who support the death penalty Say leaving all these people on death row essentially indefinitely is unfair and cruel to the relatives of the victims and to people who they say were promised a certain punishment, that the justice system said, we will do this and it is not doing that. People who oppose the death penalty say leaving these people on death row indefinitely is also cruel because they say you're leaving these people oftentimes in more restrictive conditions. They also say it's cruel to leave people essentially at the mercy of this system where, as one person put it, one day their number could just get called. If the person is on death row in a state that's not carrying out executions today, that could always change in the future election or with a future court decision. One day the tides could turn and that person could essentially be at the mercy of a system that could suddenly begin executions again.

[Martine Powers]

That's so interesting that you're hearing pushback on this both from people who are pro death penalty and even from people who are anti death penalty who say that yes, these people aren't being executed, but having them remain on death row while they wait for some execution that may never come, but they're not sure that that in and of itself is an act of cruelty.

[Mark Berman]

I mean, one thing that was interesting in reporting the story was I talked to a number of people who support the death penalty, who oppose the death penalty. Nobody seems happy with the status quo today.

[Martine Powers]

Huh. Interesting. Well, I want to come back to the case of John Lesco, who you were talking about earlier. And I know that you have been speaking with some of the friends of one of his victims, a police officer who Lesko was convicted of killing. And then you've been talking to these friends about how they have dealt with all of these scheduled executions and then executions called off and the back and forth over the last few decades. First, can you just tell me a little bit about this group of friends?

[Mark Berman]

John Lesko and his co defendant Michael Trivaglio were convicted of killing four people. They were given the death penalty for the fourth victim, a young man named Leonard Miller, who was a 21 year old police officer in a small borough called Apollo, Pennsylvania, outside of Pittsburgh. Some of Miller's friends still struggle to this day with what they think should happen to John Lesko. Those people include William Kerr, who was the mayor of Apollo at the time.

[William Kerr]

You know, today we talk about community police officers and Leonard did that well before the concept of police or community policing even came about. Getting out of the police car, interacting with their constituents.

[Mark Berman]

I also spoke to Robin Davis and Jim Claussen who were both police officers and friends of Leonard Miller's.

[Robin Davis]

The hurt was horrible.

[Jim Claussen]

I remember the phone call I received that morning telling me of what took place.

[Martine Powers]

And what do they remember from the night that Leonard Miller was killed?

[Mark Berman]

William Kerr says he remembers vividly what happened that night. He was asleep in bed when he heard two gunshots and then more gunshots. He lived right across the river from where Leonard Miller was shot. And at the time he was mayor. So he slept with police scanner running in his room.

[William Kerr]

I immediately heard Officer Miller on the police radio. I had a scanner and he said 70 to control, I've been shot.

[Mark Berman]

He jumped out, ran down into the family station wagon and drove across the bridge to where Leonard Miller was.

[William Kerr]

So I knelt at his side saying a short prayer and I said, leonard, who did this to you? Leonard who did this? No response.

[Mark Berman]

He died soon after. And William Kerr had to go to his parents house to tell them what happened.

[William Kerr]

Frank and Evelyn were genuine parents, caring parents. Leonard Miller was only their only son.

[Martine Powers]

Oh my gosh. Right after that happened, how did William Kerr and how did the others feel about how Leonard Miller's killers should be held responsible?

[Mark Berman]

I sat down with Leonard Miller's friends in William Kerr's sunroom on a rainy afternoon and I asked them how they felt about the death sentences back then and how they feel about them today.

[William Kerr]

So I had a. I don't want to say a change of heart. I just thought it through. I think I'm pretty faithful as all of you and I came to the conclusion about 10 years ago that I would more be in favor. Be in favor of life sentence without parole. Just came to that conclusion. I think it's based on my Christian values, but also taking into consideration about the moratorium on the death penalty. He's going to die in jail? Yeah. In prison? Yeah. And nothing's going to change?

[Elahe Izadi]

No.

[Mark Berman]

So you would support changing it to life sentence just because you don't think they're going to do it anyway. So you think, why have this?

[William Kerr]

Yes.

[Mark Berman]

Of these three, James Clausen is the one who is the most vocal that he still wants the execution carried out.

[Jim Claussen]

I still stand for the death penalty.

[Mark Berman]

Yeah.

[Jim Claussen]

I think that it's on the books, it's to be carried out. It's a law enforcement officer that is killed. And I agree. You don't want to put someone to death that is an innocent person. This isn't the case. We know the situation, we know the circumstances. We know who was guilty carry it out.

[Mark Berman]

He also said he does not think he would feel any better if it were carried out?

[Jim Claussen]

Would that solve my problem? No, I don't think I'd feel any better.

[William Kerr]

Well, you're not a revengeful person.

[Jim Claussen]

No, but it's the, I don't know, closeness and the friendship that Leonard and I had that's no longer.

[Mark Berman]

You know, he said he would still have lost his friend. It wouldn't take away the pain that they suffered.

[Martine Powers]

Why did that moment stick out to you?

[Mark Berman]

When I was speaking to them about this, one of the things that I was most curious about was how they feel now and how they felt then and what would make them feel differently if the execution happened, if they found out it never would. If it had happened years ago, if it were happening tomorrow. I thought it was notable that he feels so strongly it should be carried out, but also seems very realistic about what it would mean for him personally.

[Robin Davis]

I met him through work and, I mean, he was always around. He was always helping somebody, doing something for somebody.

[Mark Berman]

Robin Davis, who later became the Apollo police chief and still works in law enforcement, said her opinion also changed in part because of the cost of this system.

[Robin Davis]

Why should we. And as I'm speaking, as we. The legal system, because this continually ties up judges and lawyers and district attorneys and investigators. Why should parole board and parole board. Why should it continue to cost money in that aspect? All right, you just don't have a parole hearing for five bucks. You know what I'm saying? So why should we continue to be burdened with that cost? Lock them up, close the blinds, close the windows, take that key, throw it over to Hill and be done with them. Let him go.

[Mark Berman]

You'd be okay with that now, just given how much time he's been fighting?

[Jim Claussen]

Yes.

[Martine Powers]

So, yeah, I heard Robin saying that she just thinks part of what has changed her thinking on this is that it's just so expensive. But I think that for an average person, that doesn't quite make sense. Why is the death penalty expensive versus the cost of feeding and housing someone in prison for the duration of their life?

[Mark Berman]

The death penalty is more expensive in two ways. First, seeking and winning a death sentence tends to cost a lot more money. Studies have found that it can cost.

[Martine Powers]

Significantly more, just like in legal fees.

[Mark Berman]

It's also the cases themselves are long. A death penalty case typically is actually two trials in one. First, there's what's known as the guilt phase, when they decide whether or not the person is actually guilty of the crimes. If they are found guilty, they go on to what's called the penalty phase. Where they determine whether or not they get a death sentence. A death penalty case can typically involve multiple experts, more work, more time. It can take a lot longer for these cases to be tried. More people are involved. So the actual cases cost more money. When people are on death row, what experts and researchers have found is when there are specially dedicated death rows, those tend to cost more money because people on death row will then be in an isolated cell, so a single cell, so they can't share a cell. There's more staffing involved, there's more people involved, there's more security involved. So it can cost more to the system. But I raised a hypothetical question with them. Can I ask a hypothetical which might be annoying, but if tomorrow you got a call that said the governors lifted the moratorium, they scheduled the execution for Lesco, you would go and attend immediately. Just for the audio for anyone listening. Yes. Jim Claussen's hand went up. Robin Davis hand went on.

[William Kerr]

Well, I would have Tara.

[Mark Berman]

And you would support him?

[William Kerr]

Yeah, and I would support the decision of the parole board and the governor.

[Martine Powers]

What did you make of their responses there?

[Mark Berman]

I think it shows how complicated this issue is for a lot of people. I think it shows how complicated it is to live with this for so long for people on death row and for the people impacted by some of these cases. I think it shows that it's not clear cut, it's not black and white. There's a lot of difficult feelings sort of tied up in these things.

[Elahe Izadi]

After the break, Martine and Mark talk about the future of the death penalty. And we hear from John Lesko, who Mark visited on death row. We'll be right back.

[Martine Powers]

So, Mark, I'm curious. Did you ever get the chance to talk to John Lesko himself?

[Mark Berman]

I did speak to John Lesko. I visited him at the prison where he's held south of Pittsburgh in Somerset, Pennsylvania. When I visited him at the prison, there are a number of requirements, including that we cannot record. I couldn't bring in my own pen and paper.

[Martine Powers]

Oh, wow.

[Mark Berman]

I couldn't bring in my phone. I couldn't bring in my watch when I got there. Once you go through the security screenings, you are given a notepad and a pen that you can take notes on during an interview. And when you leave, you have to give back the pen and the notepad, and you can just tear out the papers that you used.

[Martine Powers]

Wow. What was it like talking to him?

[Mark Berman]

One thing I thought was interesting was that John Lesko talks about his case almost as if he's discussing something happening. To somebody else. He told me he has spent years behind bars studying the law. He has spent years learning about these systems. He talks about it in a sort of realistic way. He knows he could be executed. He says it would be Pennsylvania's right to do so, although he does not want it to happen. He says he knows there's a lot of emotion in these cases, but he discusses it without a lot of emotion.

[Martine Powers]

I'm curious who else you talked to about this and if there were other conversations you had with people that were insightful in terms of this shifting view on capital punishment.

[Mark Berman]

One of the people I spoke to for this story was a man named Timothy Geary, who prosecuted John Lesko and his co defendant Michael Trivaglia and helped get a death sentence for them back in 1982. Timothy Geary knew Leonard Miller, the victim in the case, and he was actually working as a part time prosecutor when Leonard Miller was killed and was called out to the scene. What was your position on the death penalty at this point in time?

[Timothy Geary]

I was sort of ambivalent, to be honest with you about it. I told you I wrote a paper when I was still in college just saying that it's too expensive. But once I saw Leonard, everything changed. I mean, when you saw him that.

[Mark Berman]

Night, did the death penalty go through your head?

[Timothy Geary]

Yeah.

[Mark Berman]

What was your thought?

[Timothy Geary]

And my thought was whoever did this should get the death penalty.

[Mark Berman]

So this standing on the side of the road by the bridge.

[Timothy Geary]

Yeah. All my ambivalence went out the window at that point.

[Martine Powers]

What did you make of that? Of his memory, of that moment of clarity that he believed in that moment that the death penalty was justified.

[Mark Berman]

I think it shows how much this can be such an emotional issue for so many people that he walked up to that scene with one perspective, and when he saw somebody he knew on the ground dead, his feelings changed in an instant.

[Martine Powers]

What did he say about how his thoughts on this have evolved?

[Mark Berman]

I asked him how he felt about this and how much time had passed and whether his opinions on it had shifted.

[Timothy Geary]

It just, it was the tide coming in on the beach over and over, you know, it wearing down the rocks on the beach, and that's what it was. And I started realizing, you know, after 20 years or so have gone by, you're thinking, what's the point now.

[Martine Powers]

Mark? I thought I was curious. You said earlier that you've talked to so many people about this issue of people who are passionately pro capital punishment, people who are advocating against it, and that across the spectrum, even from both sides that everybody is dissatisfied with the system as it currently stands. Then what's the solution here? What are people proposing should change that would veer us away from this, what seems like this kind of limbo of states that have the death penalty but don't really use it anymore, but people are still on death row. And then it's just sort of this muddy middle ground.

[Mark Berman]

There are two perspectives on that. People who support the death penalty say the way out of this is to start carrying out executions again. Louisiana's governor, who took office this year, who is a vocal death penalty supporter, quickly signed a bill adding new execution methods in a way to speed up and resume executions. People who oppose the death penalty have said that the solution here is to just remove these people from death row, acknowledge that they will not be executed, and remove the possibility. They have asked some outgoing officials, including North Carolina's governor and President Biden, to commute death sentences on their way out the door to make sure that their successors cannot resume executions at some point down the line.

[Martine Powers]

President elect Trump has said in the past that he is a supporter of capital punishment. The fact that he will be president starting next year, do we anticipate that there will be any changes in federal death penalty law and that that might kind of shake things up here?

[Mark Berman]

President elect Trump has not specifically said whether his administration will resume executions, but it is expected that it likely will. When he was in office the last time his administration resumed federal executions for the first time in almost two decades, and during his last year in Office carried out 13 executions, then President Biden took office, and his attorney general pretty quickly said, we have a moratorium in place, no more executions. President elect Trump has not officially said what he intends to do, but observers expect his administration would seek to resume executions.

[Martine Powers]

So where do things go from here, and what are the questions that you have about how this very complicated issue is going to play out going forward?

[Mark Berman]

I talked to some people who support and oppose the death penalty who said they just don't see any change coming. They don't see any big push to commute a number of sentences all at once. And barring that, it seems like the status quo will remain. It just raises these questions, right? It raises questions about what is justice in America? How do you define it? Who defines it? Is it seeking these sentences that will never be carried out? Is it not carrying them out? Is it commuting these sentences? Is it just leaving these things in limbo? Because at the moment, it seems like people are just left wondering what's going to happen.

[Martine Powers]

Mark, thank you so very much.

[Mark Berman]

Thank you.

[Elahe Izadi]

Mark Berman covers law enforcement and criminal justice for the Post. He spoke with my co host Martine Powers. Before I go, I wanted to share two more stories with you. First, the White House is defending President Biden's decision to issue a full and unconditional pardon for his son Hunter. Talking to reporters aboard Air Force One on Monday, White House press secretary Karine Jean Pierre denied that Biden misled the public. This is after Biden repeatedly asserted he would not pardon Hunter. Hunter was found guilty of gun related charges in Delaware and pleaded guilty to tax evasion in California. Here's what Jean Pierre told reporters on Air Force One.

[Robin Davis]

Two things could be true. The president does believe in the justice.

[Mark Berman]

System and Department of Justice, and he also believes that his son was singled out politically.

[Robin Davis]

And this is what we saw over and over and over again over the last couple of years.

[Elahe Izadi]

Jean Pierre also told reporters that there'd be more pardons from Biden before he leaves office next month. And the earliest known country music recording has been found.

[Mark Berman]

You.

[Elahe Izadi]

That's the voice of New Orleans singer Louis Vu performing Thompson's Old gray mule in 1891. That's 133 years ago. This music was found after a collector paid about $100 for a box of wax cylinders at an auction in Pennsylvania coal country. These cylinders are the oldest commercial medium of recorded music, and they sat in the collector's house for years until he decided to put one of the decaying brown tubes onto his custom player. Vaznier's recording is the oldest country music recording ever found, and it's notable because he's a black singer and the industry has long overlooked black artists. An independent label, Archipone Records, re released the song last month. Archiphone specializes in these old recordings. Label co founder Rich Martin wants to revisit the complicated relationship country music has had with race. Here's what he told my colleague Jeff.

[Mark Berman]

Black artists by and large who were the ones who performed and recorded that stuff get wiped out of the picture because they say, well, it's not really, it's not really country. So ours is partly a project of reclamation.

[Elahe Izadi]

The song Thompson's Old Gray Mule was later recorded by hillbilly masters Uncle Dave Macon and Riley Puckett. But we'll let that first version from Vaznier play us out today. That's it for Post reports. Thanks for listening. Today's show was produced by Ariel Plotnick with help from Sabi Robinson and Renny Srinofsky. It was mixed by Justin Garish and edited by Maggie Penman, with help from Monica Campbell. Thanks to Efrain Hernandez Jr and Rishma Kirpalani. I'm Elahe Izadi. We'll be back tomorrow with more stories from the Washington Post.