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The Growth Podcast
How to Build a Full AI Dev Team in Claude Code | Guide from Google PM Gabor Meyer
02:15:18
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- [00:00]
Akash
AI agents are writing PRDs, designing in Figma, writing JIRA tickets and even shipping code all from 1pm at 4am I
- [00:08]
Gabor Meyer
set up these agents on a way how I would imagine in a real world I would work with a group of software engineering team members. If you build a good specification and you break it down appropriately then you will have a much better quality end product.
- [00:27]
Akash
What breaks when you give AI agents too much context? And what's your honest take on cowork and dispatch?
- [00:33]
Gabor Meyer
Byputing is just the rebranding of unmaintainable low quality source code Gabor Meyer is
- [00:40]
Akash
a Product Manager at Google who has spent the last five months building AI powered apps using a team of specialized agents. And in today's episode he's going to walk you through his agent setup and he's going to show you how you can go from zero to actual app in the App Store in just a couple of hours. The gap between you and the other PM in two years, it's going to be huge. If people want to get started, where should they go?
- [01:03]
Gabor Meyer
The best place to start? If you just want to do it for yourself, pull up your favorite AI ChatGPT Gemini broad code and start asking questions how to do things.
- [01:13]
Akash
If you stay to the end, you'll see a live demo of Gabor's agent workflow and see how to set up your own agent team. Before we go any further, do me a favor and check that you are subscribed on YouTube and following on Apple and Spotify podcasts. And if you want to get access to amazing AI tools, check out my bundle where if you become an anal subscriber to my newsletter, you get a full year free of the paid plans of Mobin, Arise, Relay App, Dovetail, Linear Magic Patterns, Deep Sky, Reforge, Build, Descript and Speechify. So be sure to check that out@buildle.akashg.com and now into today's episode. As PMs. We've been working in this model where we work with human developers, human designers. But what if Claude Code was your designer, your developer, your systems analyst? I've had plenty of episodes on cloud code, but today's episode is different. It's not a PM operating system, it's a startup operating system. Gabor meyer is a PM at Google who has been staying up till 4 or 5am every day playing in cloud code and he has figured out how to create an entire startup inside cloud code. Front end engineers, back end engineers, legal counsel. And in today's episode he's going to walk you through his agent setup and he's going to show you how you can go from zero to an actual app in the App Store in just a couple of hours. Gabor, welcome to the podcast.
- [02:43]
Gabor Meyer
Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here.
- [02:47]
Akash
Gabor, you told me something pretty crazy, which is that you're not just using cloud code for PM tasks, you're using it to replicate a company. You have a 15 agent team, CTO agent, design agent, coding agent. Can you walk us through your agent setup in cloud code?
- [03:01]
Gabor Meyer
Yes, absolutely. So I have actually now I just realized that it's 21 agents apparently, according to what I can see on the screen. So the probably the most important agent that I use is the system honorist agent. I set up these agents on a way how I would imagine in a real world I would work with a group of software engineering team members. So I have someone who looks after the brand. I have someone who looks into whether our code is maintainable. I have a CTO who looks after the more strategic technical decisions. I have designer agents. I have agents that implement the actual software, the coding part of it. I have an agent which takes care of the the performance of the application. I have another designer agent. I have a product council which looks into how do we handle data, how do we store data, just to make sure that we are not leaving anything available for bad actors. We also have a product spec architect which usually checks for me whether I our specification is well structured and easy to understand. This will be important later. I will walk you through that. We have a test architect which designs how we guarantee the quality of the whole application. And then I have a UX flow architect. This will be very interesting. When we are designing the clickable prototype which is the basis of the app, we'll come back to the uxflow architect as well.
- [04:57]
Akash
Amazing. Can you show us inside one of these agent markdown files? Since you mentioned system analyst, I'd love to see under the covers what that definition looks like.
- [05:05]
Gabor Meyer
Yes, of course. I can show you. This is my system analyst agent. So this basically breaks down product requirements and technical specifications and it pretty much operates as you would expect from from a system analyst. So if there's anything ambiguous, it asks you questions. It also takes care of dependencies so that they are properly documented. And I find that the system analyst agent is really a key player in my setup because the system analyst agent is the one that I use to create both my documentation as well as my tickets for the development.
- [05:52]
Akash
Amazing. So that's the high level view of the system. Guys, now we're going to show you through a live Demo 02 test flight. Where should we get started?
- [06:01]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, let me walk you through how I build and to make it more accessible for product managers who might not be fully comfortable using cloud code just yet, let me start this whole process from the Claude app, the desktop app, or this is basically the consumer app that you can run on your mobile device as well. So the way how I usually start building anything is that I start creating a description of what I want to build. And the reason why I love to use the consumer app app for this is because it allows me to use it. Even, let's say while I'm walking my dog. I can put Claude into voice mode and I can talk to Claude and I can define new features. I can ideate what I want to build. So let me show you how I get started. At first I will tell Claude that to act like it is a system analyst and then I will ask Claude to listen and create the idea with me of a new application that we will build today. The application that we will build today is a AI chat application that helps ice hockey fans understand the rules of ice hockey better. Why exactly that? Because I was an ice hockey referee for 20 years and I would have always loved if the fans and the players or even ourselves referees would have a better understanding of the rules and an easier way to find the applicable rules for some niche situations. So that's what we will build today. How does that sound?
- [07:59]
Akash
Sounds useful.
- [08:00]
Gabor Meyer
All right, cool. So the very first thing that I do, and again, you can do this on your mobile phone, open your cloud app or your favorite AI app, whatever it is, ChatGPT, Gemini, you name it and start by. And by the way, I will use dictation here. So sometimes I will talk to the camera, but sometimes I will talk to cloud. Now I will talk to Claude and and I will set up a system analyst and this is how I do it. So you don't necessarily have to define everything by yourself. You can use the LLMs and the Gen AI to help you craft stuff. So look at this. Can you tell me what is the difference between a good system analyst and a bad system analyst in a software development team? And in general, can you define me the role of a system analyst in a software development environment? Please be as detailed as possible about everything that the system analyst does and always point out what is the difference between a good and a not so good system analyst. So as the first step, I basically just ask for a definition of what a system analyst does. When I send in this prompt, it will now tell me what a system analyst does and it will point out what's the difference between a good system analyst and a bad system analyst. Requirement, documentation requirement elicitation, stakeholder management process and system modeling. So it describes you pretty well. What are the things that a system analyst does?
- [10:06]
Akash
Kabwar has a course on maven called Go from PM to AI Builder with CLAUDE Code. It's a four week program. The pitch is simple. You can you ship a real app, not a prototype, not a certificate, an actual app on the App Store or Google Play with an AI feature built in. He walks you through the full stack you've seen today, plus more CLAUDE code Flutter Firebase. You get live workshops every Thursday, a build companion app with milestone checklists and Gabor in the trenches with you until your app ships. It's $2,995, but you get a discount with my link in the description. That includes the full workflow, lifetime access to recordings, and a community of other PMs building alongside you. This is for mid to senior PMs who want to become AI PMs but don't get to build AI products in their current roles. Technical ICs with a product idea, PMs in career transition who know a certificate won't differentiate them. You don't need to know how to code, you just need a willingness to understand how software works. The link is in the description. If you've enjoyed today's episode and thought I want to build that, check out his course. Today's episode is brought to you by Amplitude Replays of mobile user engagement are critical to to building better products and experiences. But many session replay tools don't capture the full picture. Some tools take screenshots every second, leading to choppy replays and high storage costs from enormous capture sizes. Others use wireframes. But key moments go missing, creating gaps in your understanding. Neither approach gives you a truly mobile experience. Amplitude does things differently. Their mobile replays capture the full experience every tap, every every scroll and every gesture with no lag and no performance hit. It's the most accurate way to understand mobile behavior. See the full story with amplitude as the next step.
- [11:47]
Gabor Meyer
I will tell the app to act like a good system analyst and help me define a product that we will build for full context. I will provide the System analyst agent links to our documentation. So actually, let me explain how I store my documentation. So for documentation and why is it needed? I use the Atlassian JIRA and Confluence for Documentation. Let's focus at first on Confluence. I use Confluence just because it's pretty much an industry standard in many companies. So I thought it's a basic choice. But you can use whatever software documentation tool that you want. There are a bunch out there. I picked this one because it also integrates through an MCP to Claude. So I went into Claude, I connected through the settings and connectors, the Atlassian MCP and I hooked up my Atlassian account and now I have a completely empty Confluence space. And this is where our documentation will live. And I have a completely empty Kanban board where our software development tickets will live. Why do we need this development? The reason why we need this development documentation is because if we document our decisions, our specification and our software development steps really well, they will be replicatable and and your app will be maintainable. A very typical mistake that many product managers or in general people who Vibe code do that they go into a vibe coding app or setup and they start by giving one prompt and then they expect that at the end of that one prompt there will be a completely beautifully done software on the other side. But this is the equivalent of you wanting to build, build a new house. You go to one guy, you speak to that one guy and tell the one guy, build me a three bedroom house with two bedrooms. And then half a year later you come back and surprise. The house might not be just how you like it, but instead, if you would have spoken to a team leader of a team, let's say an architect who has a a complete team that builds the house and specified what you need, you probably would have had a much better outcome in the final house building instead of the mess that you got when you just spoke to one guy one time, right? And this is the same here. If you build a good specification and you break it down appropriately, then you will have a much better quality and product. So let me give the toolings, the Confluence and the Jira link to my system analyst agent and start talking to it as we are brainstorming around the app.
- [15:30]
Akash
So what I'm hearing is that the classic product management skill makes you a better vibe coder. Where do we go from here?
- [15:36]
Gabor Meyer
So from here I asked the cloud app to tell me what a good system analyst and the bad system analyst does. And now I will ask the system analyst or Claude to act like a good system analyst. And I will provide the system analyst the idea or the description of what I want to build. And I will also give the system on a list, my Confluence page and jira just as a context that this is where we will save everything that we discussed. So this is, this is how I do it. Okay? Please act like you are a good system analyst and your goal will be to help me create a comprehensive documentation for an application that we will build. It's important that at first I don't want you to start writing any documentation. I want you to ask clarifying questions until you have a complete, comprehensive and full understanding of what we are building. Please ask as many clarifying questions as you need to, but ask questions one at a time because I might get over overwhelmed if you ask too many questions at once. Also, I provide you a Confluence and a JIRA link that you can reach through the Atlassian mcp. These are the only Confluence space and JIRA boards that you can use. Please do not touch any other board or space or project through the Atlasian mcp. Only these two. There were a couple of important things in this prompt. Firstly, it's important that you ask the agent to ask you questions before moving forward. Different agents have different tendencies. Some agents or some LLMs love to start coding instantly. Some agents love to start writing instantly. So that's why I was telling Claude, do not start writing, but ask questions. So that's first important point. The second important point is that you want to tell Claude to ask you questions one at a time because sometimes it comes back with like 25 questions, in which case you easily get overwhelmed and it's very hard to answer all of the questions. So if it asks one at the time, then it's a much more linear conversation. And yeah, obviously giving the JIRA and the Atlassian link makes sure that you have all your project related stuff at one place. So let me just add those links. Oops, I forgot that this also puts it on my clipboard. So here are the links. Yeah. So now it will set up and the next step I will define what we want to build. It's confirming that it will just ask me questions. Now it's checking the space asks my permission to access those spaces.
- [19:15]
Akash
One thing I'm noticing is that the average person, they will just want to jump in. They wouldn't want to define the role of a system analyst. Create the connection to Atlassian. What you're doing is you're putting effort in the scaffolding up front so that as you go along building you don't run into kind of spaghetti code, undocumented code that you can't build on top of. Is that right?
- [19:37]
Gabor Meyer
That is absolutely right. This spaghetti code has a Slightly different angle to it as well. Because oftentimes when people who don't understand code and yeah, I have an engineering background, but I haven't done industrial level coding for like 15 years. We wouldn't be able to recognize when there are major issues in how the software is structured. And I read or read it a comment about wipe coding which was saying something like wipe coding is just the rebranding of unmaintainable low quality source code. And it definitely hit home with me. So what I did, I created a spaghetti agent, which I think my setup code like code maintainable agent or something like that. But what I told that the spaghetti agent should do is that it should make sure that there are no circular references, that our commenting in the code is high quality, that naming conventions are followed. You know, these are things that as a product manager I remember that we were always very mindful of when doing software development. So I just told the agent to watch out for these. And when I ran it for the first time on, on my code base, it did catch some of those issues.
- [21:17]
Akash
Nice.
- [21:18]
Gabor Meyer
Cool. All right, so as the next step, we need to define what do we want to build. But before we do so, I want to make one differentiation. An agent or a role that I set up here in this discussion, in this chat in the CLAUDE app is not available in CLAUDE code. So in CLAUDE code we actually need to set up our agents separately and we will have a system analyst there and we have a system analyst here, but they are not exactly the same. So my system analyst agent setup will be separate there and it will act on its own behalf, whereas here it is just acting like a system system analyst. Does it make sense? Yep. Cool. And just to accelerate things, let me actually kick off the creation of those agents on the cloud code side because it will take a couple of minutes so it can run in the background. It will be very useful for us. First we will want to set up the agent. So let me tell Claude that we will do this. And right now if I check what agents I have literally have no agents. Right, Sorry. Actually I was not in CLAUDE yet, so let me start Claude. This is the first time we are starting CLAUDE in this space, so I expect that I will have no agents. Oh, interesting. I have. Interesting. Okay. I have one systemized agent which probably comes from a global agent setup that I might have set up previously, which is all over user specific instead of just being project specific. Yeah, it's a user agent, but I don't have any of the other agents. But now we will set them up. So the way I usually set them up is this. I will give you two files now. One will be an agent setup with several agents that I want to use in this project. And I will also give you a different file which has a couple of processes that I use in development, such as few steps defined how to handle bugs or few steps defined how to create new features. Please add this to the project memory. By the way, do you also say please when you talk to AI? I don't know why I do it, but I always say please.
- [24:24]
Akash
No, but I do give it encouragement. I will be like, okay, you've given me a 7 1/2 out of 10 draft, now we need to get it to 8 and a half. Here's what we can do.
- [24:38]
Gabor Meyer
All right, so these are the agents and the workflows. So now if I hit enter. Oh, I need to authenticate. Okay, This part we will definitely. Ah, we don't need to cut. Okay. Because it went to another screen. Just one sec. Okay. Login successful. Good. Try again. And just for context, quickly check where we stand with the usage of Claude. That's my Claude API here. So right now we are standing on, yeah, 2% of the usage quota. So we will see by the end of the building where do we stand on the usage quota?
- [25:59]
Akash
Oh, this will be fun to see.
- [26:01]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah. All right, cool. So our Claude cloud code should be. Yeah, building the agent and we can go back to CLAUDE and start discussing what the application is supposed to do. Okay. This will be a longer dictation, so bear with me. I want to create a mobile app which will have a flutter front end and a firebase backend. The mobile app will be a simple chat screen and in this chat interface the user will be able to have a discussion with an AI agent about rules of ice hockey, specifically the International Ice Hockey Federation rules, IIHF rules. And I want the user to be able to ask questions and get answers about the rules. For this application, I will provide two sources for the AI agent in the background. One will be the official IIHF rulebook and the other one will be the IIHF situation book. These both will have to be converted into a vector embedding, put into a vector database and convert it into embeddings because I want to optimize my but firm. I want the agent to act like a good friend of the user who has been a referee for 20 years. No coincidence, I was a referee for 20 years in ice hockey and I often when I was watching games, fans approached me and asked questions. So I imagined that I would be inside of that AI answering questions based on the latest rules There is another aspect that the AI agencies is for the 20252026 ice hockey season and something that you find online about an earlier situation. Let's say if you find a Reddit discussion about a specific and relevant situation from 2022 or 2024, they might be outdated or based on an outdated rule which might have changed ever since. Whenever you refer to such a discussion, always flag this for the user that the discussion or the source that you found online was from an older time, which might mean that the rules have changed ever since. If you can also double check the latest rules and the conclusions that you found in online sources, the primary lookup should always happen in the rulebook, the secondary lookup should always happen in the situation book and then the fallback should be the online search through the search API. When the user asks you something, our goal should be to find an accurate answer, but we also want to be mindful of how much tokens we use for the AI conversation. So we want to be balanced between the amount of context that we send to LLMs and the accuracy of the answer that we are bringing in. There will be some usage limitations because I don't want an infinite amount of cost on the API for this reason. If any user would have spent more than 20,000 words in either direction of the conversation combined. So this includes what the user said, this includes what the AI agent responded. So anything that goes beyond 20,000 words should be stopped and the user's allowance should be suspended for 24 hours and the user should get a warning that that for 24 hours you cannot ask more questions because you reached a limit. After the 24 hours expired, the user can again ask questions. The technical stack we clarified. Also I want to make sure, and this is exceptionally important, that API keys should be stored in the Firebase Secret store and never exposed to the front end or to the source code because I don't want additional cost incurred by accidentally exposing my API keys. So please make sure that API keys are never exposed to the code, especially not to the front end, and they are only stored inside of the Firebase Secret Manager. The app will be launching on iOS only for now, and the minimum version I'm Preparing for is iOS 16 or later. Feel free to ask any clarifying questions that you may have.
- [32:19]
Akash
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- [35:29]
Gabor Meyer
Now I stopped the dictation. The brilliant thing about dictation is that just imagine how long it would have taken me to type all of this up. I could have provided way deeper context to the to Claude that compared to what I would have been able to provide while typing and even when I was not super concise all along the way. It will figure it out and it will be a good outcome. Any observations you might have.
- [36:03]
Akash
That was the longest dictation prompt we have seen yet on this podcast. Impressive.
- [36:11]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, we might want to 2x the speed, but yeah, I like to define very well in the beginning because if you have a good specification then you will have a good product. If you have a sheet specification then you will have a subpar product. And you can see that Super Whisper is still doing the transcribing. But I like that even if I speak kind of this long, it always transcribes quite well. The only thing is that I can't really click away from it. Oh, there we go. Paste it. Yeah, it wasn't that long for the transcription. Okay, let's see in the meantime. Okay, so our agent setup seems to be done. Let me see what agents do we have now? Somehow it did not set up our agents in the project. So I will try it again now. Okay, let's see if it does it now. I think the confusion was that I placed these MD files into the project and it assumed that it will just use that project file all the time. But now I try to prompt it to more explicitly to set it up. So we will see if it sets up the actual agents. And in the meantime let's go back to our system analyst here. Question 2. 20,000 VAR usage limit needs to be track per user. It will be just stored on the device. So it will be a per device tracking. We also don't want any user input to be stored on the server side. We only want to store information that came from the user on the mobile device of the user. This means that the user would not need to create a login or an account. They would be just using the app without authentication and we would be just processing information on the server side. But we never store anything on the server side. This simplifies the mobile app launch as well, especially when you are creating your very first launch because if you don't store user information, that that is just easier for the first launch process. Okay, so let's see if now we have agents. And we don't. Interesting. Remember, The weird thing is that it tells me that it did set up the. Actually let me then just create a new directory and do it from there. Because this is literally the first step and for some reason it does not like my agent setup. So I will now create a separate folder and we will develop in that folder. So new folder. Okay, this one
- [40:08]
Akash
always when you do the live demo, it's like now never happened to me.
- [40:13]
Gabor Meyer
This literally never happened to me. This setup, I did it and I helped many people do the same. And this setup never failed. But it's okay. Sometimes it happens. So now we change over Claude. Here is our cloth and now I will just reuse this prompt. And hopefully now it will ask me for permissions to read. Yes, this is good. Because it should read. Yes, it can read from that file. Yes, this is looking already much better. One thing that I would highly recommend everyone who is building, especially for the first time when you are doing by coding, always read, always read what crowd code asks. Because it happened to me once that it asked me to provide to give an agreement for it to read the secret storage of my Chrome passwords. Obviously I did not provide that agreement. I didn't quite feel comfortable with that. I even have a screenshot of that. So you have to be always mindful what you allow Claude to code to do and what you don't allow it to do. Generally, as a rule of thumb, as long as it operates inside of the development folder, you are good. But as soon as it would operate outside, then it would be something to watch more closely.
- [42:22]
Akash
And as you speak of it, it's actually trying to make some directories.
- [42:25]
Gabor Meyer
So yeah, which is fine because this is basically now setting up the infrastructure that it needs, but it is setting up inside of the right directory so I can see that it is setting it up Inside of the rule ask directory. And that is the new directory that I created. And now it is creating all of those agents that we try to create in the rulers.com directory, which for some reason didn't happen on the first attempt, but now it is happening, so it's all good. So let's go back to our questions about the system. So since the conversation history lives on the device, I need to understand how the chat experience works. When the user closes, the app reopens. Yeah, okay, this is a good question. When the user reopens the app, they should be shown a list of previous conversations that they had and they would be allowed to start a new conversation or look up or even continue a previous conversation when a conversation appears in the list. Oh, okay, this is a good question. Each conversation should have a short summary, like a couple of words. Summary what the conversation was about. And when the user continues a conversation and it evolves, this short summary might change over time. This can be auto generated by the LLM. Do you have many more questions left? Now I'm getting a bit impatient and eager to build.
- [44:26]
Akash
Oh my gosh.
- [44:26]
Gabor Meyer
Has more. Yeah, they can review the previous conversations, but we don't want them to be able to continue those conversations. But they can review it. Yes, that's the name of the app. And the last question. Yes, it can show the link. And in that case I don't really want an in app browser, so it should just open the system default browser. Okay, and this concludes our questions. So now the magic will happen because now that all the questions are done, now I will tell Claude to create the documentation and it will be fascinating to see how it creates all the documentation.
- [45:11]
Akash
Okay, so what epics, what tasks, what the JIRA setup looks like, the Confluence set up, I want to see how detailed it gets it. Does it really simulate a human team?
- [45:21]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, I'm a bit concerned because I told it not to use JIRA just yet, so I might stop this. Please do not create any JIRA tickets yet, only create the Confluence documentation. For now. This is important because first we want to create the design as the next step. And once the design is done, that's when we want to start creating the development tickets, because the JIRA tickets will be for development. So now I just want the documentation to be created. Ooh. Okay, so let's see our pages. And by the way, a quick look at our usage. Yeah, not much. 5%. We will go much further up. All right, so let's see the documentation. It was empty and now we actually have Pages. So let's go one by one. Product overview, Problem statement, target audience. Okay. Very basic. Good. Always allow. Now, it will create more technical architecture. This will be interesting to see. While this is happening, let me move on to the next step and we will come back to it because this will craft for a few minutes. Is that okay? Yeah. Okay, good. And our CLAUDE is in the meantime doing its settings, creating all the agents that we need, which is good. All right, so the next step, what I usually do is that I need to create a design for an application. And I do this usually in two steps. So one step is that I go into figma Make. In figma Make, I create a app guideline, design guideline or design brief, with typology and color definitions and all the different buttons and color transitions so that I can use that design specification as a basis of my actual design. So step one is that I need to create this. For that, I usually like to do some kind of inspiration. The way how I get inspired is I just go to Spotted in Prod and I look through applications. Here you can see a bunch of applications and whichever catches your eye and feel that, yeah, okay, this looks like a good design. You can just click on it, take a screenshot, and reuse it for your own app. I literally don't really overthink it. I just take a screenshot on whichever item. I feel that it looks appealing to my eye, and that's about it. Yeah, this looks like a decent. Ah. Okay. This is the claw depth. Most surprised that I'm. I'm intrigued to take it, but this looks interesting. But I don't like the color pattern. Okay. I like these logos. Okay, this looks interesting. So I take a screenshot of this
- [49:43]
Akash
and this Website spotted in prod.com it's free.
- [49:46]
Gabor Meyer
Yes. I think it has some content which is free, and then it has some content which is paid. But there is a bunch of content that is free and also you can actually use much simpler things. Let me show you what I sometimes use, but let me first put the prompt. So now we are in Figma make, and I will tell Figma make what I want to do. We will create a brand guideline for a mobile application. I want you to create the whole typography, definition, colors, CTA buttons, color transitions, error stages, and so on and so on. So I need a full package that can provide an input for a mobile app designer with a comprehensive set of assets for a mobile application. The mobile application has the name of Rule Ask and the goal of the mobile application is to have a chat interface through which the user can ask AI about the rules of ice hockey. Please don't start designing anything just yet because I will provide you with a couple of images that you can use as an inspiration for this design. Please do not copy anything. Just use it as an inspiration. This last part of the prompt to use it as an inspiration, do not copy. This is very important because if I wouldn't say that, Figma would actually say, sorry, I cannot create a copy for you, because I think Figma figured out that people would just take a screenshot of an app that they like and then they would try to copy it, which obviously wouldn't be great.
- [51:58]
Akash
Super Whisper is slow
- [52:02]
Gabor Meyer
but accurate. Okay, so here and now let me put the images. So here is one and then the other one is this one. I love this image. So this one I took a screenshot. Sorry, not the screenshot, the photo of a laptop thing cover. So I took a photo of my laptop cover and removed the Apple logo. And I will use this as an inspiration and we will see if the color palette will anyhow give us some remembrance of these colors. You can design now. All right, so we will now have the typography and everything. So now Figma make is designing.
- [53:28]
Akash
What do you think about figma make versus the other tools out there? Bolt Replit, Lovable Base 44
- [53:37]
Gabor Meyer
so I have a very, very specific use case what I use Figma make for. And I only use it for creating designs such as this one. I don't use it to create actual prototype. With Figma make, at least I haven't utilized it because I feel that I can create a higher quality prototype if I pair it up with crowd code. Previously I used Lovable, but this was probably more than a year ago. At that time I got quite frustrated with the issue that the AI was lying. I found an issue I tell the AI to fix, said it fixed it and it didn't fix it. And we were just going rounds and rounds and issues were still present and it was unable to fix it. So I'm sure that Lovable and other tools got much better in the meantime. And these vicious cycles of errors don't happen all that often anymore. But sort of that was a turn off moment for me. I tried, I think I tried both once, but I found that it was around the same time when I tried Lovable and I felt that Lovable was more convenient to use at that time. So I went with Lovable. And then I ran into this issue with Lovable and then couple of months later, like late last year, I had this idea that, you know what, now that there are MCPs and stuff, let's see if I could actually build a mobile app. Like, I wanted to challenge myself. After seeing a podcast episode on Lenny's podcast with Zevi from Meta, who also sort of built a lot of agents and prototypes for himself, he inspired me to get into the deeper side of wipe coding. Because with Lovable, for example, or Bot or with Figma make, you go from prompt to prototype in one step. But what we do today in this podcast episode is that we go from idea to prompt, prompt to code, code to product. So idea to prompt, prompt to code, code to product. And I just like that more. And look at that, look at the colors, look at the colors. Like, oh gosh, this is, this is the crazy part, this is the crazy part. And also typography. Like, man, this is the exciting part. I can't tell you how much I love this stuff. Like, look at these. Seriously, even like last year or before creating this sort of quality input, how long would it have taken to get this output? You would have hired an agency to create this for you. Isn't this absolutely incredible?
- [56:54]
Akash
Now it's pretty much the free version of Figma Make.
- [56:57]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, I don't, I'm on a paid version, but yeah, I don't know how capable the free version is, but. But it is just mind blowing. Anyways, let's check back with our agents. Okay, so in theory we have all the documentation done. Let's see if our agents are properly set up. It's still working, but let's check our documentation. So now refreshing confluence. Oh yeah, okay, technical architecture. Let's see. Oh, look at that.
- [57:50]
Akash
Not getting fancy.
- [57:51]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, this is decent. This is decent technology. Stack, front end, back end, vertex, AI vector database, the two resources embedding, strategy, fallback. Yeah, appropriate.
- [58:23]
Akash
Yeah, looks right.
- [58:25]
Gabor Meyer
Then, oops, sorry. Then EI agent specification.
- [58:41]
Akash
When you're looking at this, what are you reading it for?
- [58:46]
Gabor Meyer
I primarily read it whether it reflects accurately what I said. So for example, here, receive the user query, embed it, search it against the similar things in the vector database, evaluate confidence, just that it goes through the steps and you can see like this is a beneficial part for a product manager. If you build an application like this, like, obviously I don't have a need to create a ice hockey rules app, even though I will send this to a couple of friends and I think they will appreciate it. But there is no need for me to create an Isokie rules app. But the benefit that if I can launch this app, put it into the App Store, I can literally put it on my resume as a portfolio item. And I can show anybody that, hey, look, I built this and I can create a subsection of that app which I can, let's say password protect, where I would provide all this information of how I built this application. So this provides an inevitable or undoubtable proof that I, as a product manager, I know what I'm doing around these systems and I can build. Okay, so let's see if our agents are now set up. Let's hope that at this time the system did not fail us. There we go. Okay, so now we have the agent and we can use all of these agents. So now what we want to do is I want to give my style guide to the agents. So I have created a mobile app design guideline for the team to use. Here is the link for it. Please save it to the project memory so that we will always refer to this style guide whenever we need to make a design decision about the application. And now we need to save this one and we save it to. Here it is good. It's saving into memory. I already created an empty Figma file where I will ask the agents to save the design. Okay. As the next step I want system analyst agent to work with the designer agent and the brand agent to create the actual design and the screens in figma through the Figma MCP for the application I want to create the smallest number of screens that can serve all the use cases. The goal is to have exceptionally high quality screens but rather small number of them. And when this will be building it, it will be also a quite mind blowing experience to see. Okay, and one more thing I would need to check actually let me put this on the clipboard for now is whether we have the figma MCP connected just to be sure that it has access to both Figma make and figma because if we don't then it will start failing. So that's an important part to do. This is the annoying part of using a clique that you cannot just highlight everything and then with one tap delete the whole thing. But you need to actually wait to delete. Or maybe I'm using it wrongly. But yeah, let's check our mcps. Okay, we are all connected. Figma. Okay, Figma is the most important and we have the Figma friend as well. Good Inspector. Okay, one MCP that I'm missing. Can you also install the Chrome dev tool mcp? The Chrome devtool MCP is useful because it can operate the browser and it can have a better sort of comparison or visual to verify your design. So yeah, we are allowing it to put it into this project. Okay, Chrome Dev tool has been installed. Whenever you install a new mcp, you actually need to restart cloud code. And now we should see. Yeah, Chrome Dev tools connected. Okay, perfect. All right, so now we can start our design. So now what I expect is that it will start creating the design based on the specification and based on the figma make link. And I think I didn't call out specifically the FIGMA make. So I can inject an additional instruction, use the FIGMA make style guide as a basis.
- [65:26]
Akash
Yeah, I love.
- [65:27]
Gabor Meyer
Btw, yeah, I love the by the way thing because it just injects it and it evaluates in parallel. See, it already. Accepted it.
- [65:47]
Akash
This is one of the things that you're going to get in CLAUDE code that you're not going to get in claude. So besides the agents, you get a lot of different functionality. If you've been scared about using Claude code, open up that terminal.
- [66:00]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, exactly. Nice. It's very convenient, honestly. So you can see that now it runs multiple agents. So if I come to the Figma page, this is where I expect that the Figma designs will start showing up very soon. So as soon as the screens are done, it will be much quicker. It's also fascinating to read these. What are the things that are happening in the mind of the agents that are working on your behalf? The reason why I say that product managers should build is because if they understand how today agents work, how they behave, what are their limitations, what are their ups and downs while using them, then it's much easier for any product manager to understand how their own product that they are working on should be serving users. But if you don't interact with agents, then you will not have a sense of what does it mean to work with an AI agent. That's why it's super beneficial to build using AI agents
- [67:26]
Akash
100%. The future of products mostly is going to be agentic. You actually think about how Gabor described that he wanted to use Atlassian. He said, oh well, they have an MCP server where I can easily connect to. That's going to be the type of decision someone is going to make. And you're going to simulate making a lot of those decisions so that you can prioritize your roadmap correctly.
- [67:52]
Gabor Meyer
Oh, finally. Okay, set up Figma file structure. That's good. And then build screen. Good. Now we will start Seeing? Yes. Okay, now let's see the magic happen. We've got the Figma file structure and now it's starting to build the onboarding screen. So this will be very interesting to see how the cloud code is operating figma. I can also ask to give me the Figma links for the screens.
- [68:41]
Akash
Wow. Now this is cool.
- [68:44]
Gabor Meyer
We just needed to refresh and you can see that it is still working here. The fifth screen has just appeared. Right. So it like literally while we are talking, it just added the fifth screen here. It was telling that it is building and now the settings screen is done.
- [69:05]
Akash
Yeah. So this is a very powerful workflow that we've done up and until this point we specified exactly what we want in depth with claude. Then we created a prototype in Figma make. Then we used CLAUDE code to build that in figma. So that's where we are currently.
- [69:26]
Gabor Meyer
Exactly. And if you look at these, just look at the level of detail, the precision, you don't need to actually fix a lot of things. Yeah. Maybe for my taste, I would change a little bit this icon or this button to be the same size as the input box. But even if you leave it like this, it is a completely appropriate looking design and this is how your app will look. Yeah. So the next step is that we will start turning this into a prototype. The way how you would put together a prototype is that you would manually select an item and then you would connect with this prototyping button or prototyping arrow to the next screen where it needs to go. And I automated this one as well, so I can actually create this without doing anything, just simply telling cloud code to perform this step for me.
- [70:46]
Akash
Awesome.
- [70:47]
Gabor Meyer
So the next step that we want to do is that we need to make this to be a clickable prototype. So normally what you would do in Figma, you would manually come and start connecting screens just like this. But one of the agents will do this for us, so I will now ask the agent. So these are our agents and the user uxflow architect will do this for us. So here we go. System analyst and uxflow agent, please go through the documentation and the figma and create the prototype arrows in figma. Please use the Chrome DEV tool MCP where you need, as well as the Figma MCP and the Confluence mcp. So now you will see that it will most likely open another browser window that it will take control of and then we will see how it is creating all the arrows. And while it will be creating the arrows, because it will take some Time we will start initiating the. Back end of the application. Okay. Full FIGMA structure is there.
- [72:24]
Akash
All right, so we're getting those infamous parallel agent workflows started again.
- [72:27]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, we need to speed up a bit, actually. I can dictate this one. So now I would like system on a list agent to create the first JIRA tickets that would help initiate the backend of the application. We don't want anything else right now. Just a couple of tickets that would initiate the database and all the Firebase basic setup that we need so that we can start connecting the domain and setting up the Firebase secret store and so on. So only do the very basics just yet. Create the JIRA ticket so that we can go step by step. And what it will do now is that it will create these tickets for. For us.
- [73:32]
Akash
So now we kind of have our front end and our backend processes starting to parallelize.
- [73:36]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah. So that we can speed up the process a bit.
- [73:42]
Akash
How many agents are you typically running at once?
- [73:45]
Gabor Meyer
So it depends on what task do I do. You will see when we will start creating the actual development sprints. I will pretty much use the whole
- [73:55]
Akash
team, seven or eight agents running at once.
- [73:58]
Gabor Meyer
It will happen in a second. And, and you know, I think I have like 15, 16 agents total. So yeah, it will. It will be interesting to see when all of them work and all of them contribute and that's when your cloud
- [74:14]
Akash
usage really starts running quickly.
- [74:16]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, it will. Okay, so. Oh, look at this. Remember I just added that one single arrow here and all of these have been added by the agent. And what this did is that now if I start a prototype view now we actually have a clickable prototype in figma.
- [74:48]
Akash
This is going to save a ton of time.
- [74:50]
Gabor Meyer
Yes. How amazing this is.
- [74:54]
Akash
Look at that. And so I think the unlock here is a lot of people, they might say, hey, it's bad at doing X step. But what you've done is you've actually connected into figma Inc. And figma Regular. You've used that connection to have Claude code drive it like a user would. And that I think is the unlock here.
- [75:17]
Gabor Meyer
Yes. And now if we go into our jira, we will see that it will start creating our JIRA tickets for the initiation of the backend. It will start adding the backend tickets here. And once we have the backend tickets, I can start creating the rest of the tickets. Cool.
- [75:47]
Akash
And that's our system analyst agent at work, right?
- [75:49]
Gabor Meyer
Yes. But when we are creating all of the tickets, we will actually use the whole team. Okay. Because I want, usually I want the whole team to chime in. And the reason is because all of the or each agent have a different role. You know, one is for the code maintainability, the other one is making sure that our privacy is set up, etc, etc. So those will be important that all of them have their own perspective in the development tickets before we actually start implementing the code itself.
- [76:28]
Akash
Got it.
- [76:30]
Gabor Meyer
Okay, so it is now creating the epic and this is the prelance look. So now this ticket is created. And this is not me creating anything, it is the app actually. Right? And now it will start just creating more and more tickets. See. So when this is done, okay, all tickets are created. Okay, so let's start the development of these. Mark all of These tickets as Sprint 1, use the tag because you don't have access to creation of actual Sprints. So use the tags to mark all of these as Sprint 1 and after that you can start executing Sprint 1. There is a weird limitation right now for this Atlasian MCP that somehow it doesn't have the permission to create a Sprint. So we need a workaround. You could manually start organizing tickets into a Sprint, but I usually just use tags which it has access to. Why is it important that you use Sprints? Just like in any other software development project, there are dependencies when you create software and you want to make sure that some stuff gets done before you start building some other. Right. That's why you need Sprints. And this is what we, what we did here. So now we are just initializing basically the Firebase. We will add stuff to our Firebase secret store, like the cloud API and stuff. So yeah, that's happening right there. And now let me start the whole team to start creating the rest of the Sprints and the rest of the tickets. So now things will get a little bit faster. Okay, now I would like the whole team to work with System Honest agent to start creating the tickets for the actual software development. At first, only create the front end tickets and make sure that every front end ticket has screenshot attached or has an explicit Figma file linked so that our development agents will have a clear view of what needs to be developed. I particularly want that tester agent and system analyst agent would verify that each ticket that is a front end ticket would have a screenshot attached. I really need to be particular about the screenshots because if you don't add the screenshot, the cloud code agents will just create the typical AI looking app instead of creating the design that you made in figma. So it will be the typical black and purple AI looking app instead of what you designed. And that's what we will also evaluate. So now we will have a bunch of tickets and we will just check that every one of them would have either a figma link or a screenshot.
- [80:36]
Akash
Got it.
- [80:39]
Gabor Meyer
So now we will see a lot of movement in here. So now you can see it says, now let me launch the System Analyst and the Test Architect agents in parallel to plan the epics and stories breakdown. See? And now System Analyst and Test Architect are working together. But then later the other agents will also chime in. And in the meantime, on the parallel thread, the other agents, like Flutter Mobile Architect, they are working on the implementation of the backend. Yeah, and sometimes, you know, if you are waiting too much, you can actually create yet another terminal window. Yet another terminal window and just, you know, as much capacity you have, you can just parallelize stuff when it's possible. But right now I. I don't think I can give them anything that I could do in parallel. Yeah. After, after the front end tickets are done, we will create the backend tickets, then organize them into sprints, do a quick review by the whole team to see that all aspects are considered, and then we will hit the big green button and start developing the sprints.
- [82:08]
Akash
Have you ever used dangerously skipped permissions?
- [82:12]
Gabor Meyer
My policy is that as long as the agent is doing something within my project folder, I'm chill. Like the worst it can do, it damages my project. And since I created the project like in an hour or two, worst case, I can recreate when it asks me something for outside of the project folder, that's when I'm more careful. What do I answer? Whether I allow it or not. Because once it happened that for some reason, I think we spoke about this an hour ago or so, but it was literally asking to access my Chrome password storage. Yeah. Which is. Yeah, not, not necessarily delighting.
- [83:02]
Akash
And for the coding agents, I've seen you using Opus, I think for some of the other prompt, for instance, you're okay using Sonnet. Is that kind of the split? You want to use Opus for coding, but you're okay with Sonnet for the prompt?
- [83:14]
Gabor Meyer
That was not necessarily an intentional choice. I haven't been able to observe a significant enough difference with my level of coding, understanding whether one would do a better job than the other. I'm sure that some of the developers, experienced developers and architects can see a difference, but for me, for my purposes, I didn't really have this differentiation. So it was just more like what the App recommended and what some of my friends recommended along the way. So now we are creating the epics. So now you can see that this is the first front end ticket being created. And here you can see that here is the actual Figma link. See. So if I open this, it opens a specific screen. You can see now. That when I opened it has this screen specific area selected. So yeah, it's quite, quite particular about. Which ticket is about what.
- [84:47]
Akash
I remember when you had to write all the tickets, you would tell your tech lead, okay, please file the tickets now.
- [84:52]
Gabor Meyer
All that and that was. And there was always sort of a disagreement, okay, who should do this step, who should do that step, who should define the. If this, then that. Who should think about the edge cases? No, that's a system owner job. No, that's a product manager job. No, that's a developer job. That's what I like about this, that actually these help a lot.
- [85:21]
Akash
And one thing, people who maybe tried this out in November or a little while ago, look how long running these tasks are, that it's giving itself both six minute plus it's able to work a lot longer autonomously than before. And I think that's been a huge unlock that's actually allowed things like your 7 agent dev team to be possible.
- [85:41]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, definitely. And it works longer and it works quite reliable in these cases. Unlike for example a couple of other things in the ecosystem, such as a newly launched feature. Newly, like a couple of weeks ago I think it was launched dispatch. So Dispatch, for example, I don't see it to be that reliable. It very often breaks and has hiccups and it does not provide always the exact same quality output that it provided at a previous run, which I'm sure it will have a better quality in a few weeks or few months because these are all always quite rapidly evolving.
- [86:41]
Akash
So you don't have a hot take on dist batch in there, do you?
- [86:46]
Gabor Meyer
I like the idea of dispatch. I think we all think where dispatch came from or the idea of dispatch came from with openclaw. But right now I use it mindfully so I know that it is good. But I'm very aware that I need to supervise it in order to make sure that it runs properly. And I'm aware that oftentimes I will need to tell it to hey, you missed this bit. You missed that bit. Which is a bit annoying because it would be lovely if it would be just reliable. And it will, in my judgment it will have a chance to replace some of the software needs of people because you can just tell in regular human language what you want and it will
- [87:46]
Akash
do it for somebody who's trying to run their own dev team. What is the role of Claude code? Openclaw, Cowork, Dispatch? How would you put it all together?
- [87:56]
Gabor Meyer
So openclaw, I did not experiment much with. The reason is quite profound. I was not brave enough to put it on my main computer, and I decided to order a separate computer. And when I placed the order, I knew that I needed one with a larger ram. Sorry, larger ram. And it was on a backorder. So I needed to wait. And by the time it arrived, Claude launched Dispatch. So I didn't get into the craziness of OpenCloud yet. For the other pieces, I think so far, really, the biggest unlock is the mcps. So, as you could see in this setup, I'm essentially replicating the whole flow of how a regular software development team would work. I just apply the principles and the steps to the agent, and I try to do as many things with the agents as possible.
- [89:01]
Akash
So what I'm hearing is CLAUDE code is your tool of choice. You wouldn't say coworker dispatch is really replacing much. Yeah.
- [89:09]
Gabor Meyer
From the Claude ecosystem, Claude code is the most powerful. I would not necessarily go as far as, yeah, CLAUDE is my ultimate tool of choice for everything. But in this particular use case, as you can see, it is one very viable possibility that I think people should be aware of because it's a lot of fun.
- [89:37]
Akash
What do you think About Cloud Code vs. Codecs?
- [89:44]
Gabor Meyer
So codecs I did not experiment as deeply with as with cloth code, so I only, like, tried a very minimal amount. And somehow the convenience of using cloth code was just better for me. And codecs. I didn't go further into it. It's the same feeling when I tried bolt ones and then I tried lovable ones. And the first few steps felt easier on lovable, so I defaulted to lovable after all. And this was pretty much the same here that on Claude, it just felt more capable and easier to work with in the first place. So I don't have a particularly strong opinion on. On the capabilities of codecs. I'm sure that there are a lot of fans of codecs and also other tools that people use very successfully. Okay, so it seems like both of these are done. So let me start the backend tickets as well. Okay, now please get the whole team to look into the backend tickets again. Get system analyst agent to lead the discussion, but heavily involve now all the rest of the agents. CTO agent, specifically for the architecture. But also we want to make sure that our code quality and maintain maintainability is high. So the spaghetti agent. I also want to pay special attention when creating the backend tickets. So now backend tickets will be created and then when the backend tickets are also created, I will just ask the whole team to do a quick review of all the tickets and organize it into sprints and then we will start developing the sprints. It will be fairly quick because we only have a couple of screens, so it's not an awfully huge app. And at the end of the sprints, hopefully we will be able to see a working application first in the simulator and then we will send it to TestFlight and if we have time at the end, I might even add you to Testflight as a user and if you. You can download the app on your phone and try it for yourself.
- [92:33]
Akash
Sweet.
- [92:35]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, I didn't even ask. Are you an iPhone user or are you on Android?
- [92:39]
Akash
IPhone, yes, since iPhone One.
- [92:43]
Gabor Meyer
That hurts my heart for obvious reasons, but I understand I also have an iPhone. All right, so now we are creating all the backend tickets as well, while our setup on Firebase is finishing. Now the sixth auto, I think it was six or seven tickets, maybe six. The last ones are in flight by this group of agents and these ones are creating the tickets. So we are almost done now. It will soon ask me to put the API keys in. That is a very important part that we will need to put those into the Firebase secret Store because you don't want your secret keys for your API to be exposed. But you will see when I add them, how does it look when you are adding it to the secret store.
- [93:53]
Akash
And basically you don't want that because if somebody gets your key, they can charge API usage to you and you'll pay for it.
- [93:59]
Gabor Meyer
Oh, so you can always put a backstop on the spending. So that needs to be like a multi layer protection. But if you were stupid enough not to put a limit to how much charge you can entail and you exposed accidentally your key, then yeah, there can be trouble. Okay, so it seems that we are done with this one. It says that we need authentication providers which we will not need because we will not use them. Okay, we don't need that Fire reserve. Okay, so I need to tell it that we will not use any login for the app. So we don't need to enable Google and Apple Single sign ons. How is it called? Yeah, single sign on sso. Yeah, I'm blanking. Yeah.
- [95:05]
Akash
How are we Doing on our cloud usage.
- [95:08]
Gabor Meyer
I don't think it's too bad yet, but let me quickly check. Okay. It moved 10%. Okay.
- [95:19]
Akash
Not bad. So you can have two full agents writing all your back and front end tickets without worrying too much. And what plan are you on?
- [95:27]
Gabor Meyer
I'm on the $200 plan.
- [95:30]
Akash
Okay. So if we go into Jira, we should be able to see all these tickets.
- [95:34]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, let's check them. Oh, and you can see that some of our tickets moved to. Done.
- [95:44]
Akash
Nice. Yeah, so they got 29 tickets in their backlog.
- [95:49]
Gabor Meyer
I think more because under each we even have sub tickets in some cases and dependencies. Yeah. Right now I think we are on 35 tickets. But there will be, I think a lot more because these are just the epics. And now it will create the actual tickets.
- [96:12]
Akash
Have you tried this workflow without creating tickets? What happened?
- [96:15]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, so actually we could see. Earlier today I could have done ticket based design creation. So when we were creating the design, we could have started with system asking system analyst to create the tickets for the designer and then asking the designer to create the figma design. We didn't do that or I didn't do that. And actually this way I think the design turned out a little bit less high quality and less like I wanted it to be based on figma Mic and the figma Mic definition of the brand. So for example, these parts of the color palette and these parts of the color palette were not necessarily used. And it is primarily because I did not break it down into tickets, but rather I just told the agent to take this as an input, take the whole specification as an input and create the design. This resulted in the context being so large that I assume that some compression happened and some details were lost. I can't prove it or I can't necessarily say that this is 100% the truth, but this is what I suspect that happened. I'm not saying that the app looks bad, but for example, I don't see not even a single orange item on there.
- [98:18]
Akash
Yeah, it didn't use the whole palette.
- [98:20]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, so that's what happens.
- [98:25]
Akash
So basically you get more AI slop if you're not going to have these agents replicate real roles. Because one might ask like, well, for AI, should we not be replicating the way we did things in the past?
- [98:41]
Gabor Meyer
No, AI should not necessarily be fully replicating it, but at least for now it gives a good framing of how to do things. But as we are, I mean, think about it this way. You are trusting AI to do a multi Step process. You don't necessarily watch every step of the AI, but you sort of check in at places. So even this type of work is a very new type of interacting. Because I haven't created a single ticket, I haven't written anything of the, of the actual specification or confluence. So we are using it on a, on a drastically new way. But it somewhat resonates with how we used to do stuff. But it's very far from, very far from it. Okay, so let me quickly do a review. It doesn't seem to be too large number of tickets which is good, so let's just organize them. Okay, now I want the whole team, every single agent to do a review of every ticket to make sure that the ticket makes sense from that perspective. I especially want designer agent to check all the front end development tickets, that there is enough information there and that a screenshot is attached to each. I want tester agent, test architect agent to make sure that we have a decent test coverage for every ticket and we know what is our overall test plan and regression test plan to ensure quality. And I want the code maintainability agents to watch out when we are creating the code, that we have a clear expectation on naming conventions and approach to create a maintainable, well documented and well commented code. And I also want Product council to check that we are storing data appropriately. We don't send any user data to the server side storage on the server side we are just processing information, but all the storage should always be on the device side because we are not expecting the user to create an account. We are not expecting the user to log in. Therefore we only want to store user data locally and process the data on the server side when needed. Also, I want to make sure that the database setup for the AI functionality is Firebase and Vertex database. That's where we will store the rule book and the situation book so that we will be using our tokens wisely in the API queries. Okay, this will take a minute to transcribe, but yeah, I wanted to make sure that I specifically call out which agent should watch out for what and also give a little bit more context and I can't emphasize enough how important or how, yeah, how important. I find that when I use voice to text I can give way more context and depth to the requirements compared to if I would want to type all of this up. And even if I make a mistake while describing it doesn't matter because AI will understand. Okay, let's see what our other agents are saying. Yeah, they removed the Google sign in And Apple sign in. Simplify the authorized repo. That's good. Now the agents are reviewing now get System Analyst agent to create Sprints using the tag functionality with an appropriate dependency mapping between the tickets in the backlog. Okay, so as we can see now all the tickets are created and all the dependencies are mapped. So let me just very quickly prompt the whole set of Sprints to be started and developed. All right, Claude, let's start building. Go for Sprint one once you are done with it. Sprint two, then Sprint three, and so on and so on. So let's start building and if you have any question in the meantime about any step, please make sure you ask. And hopefully by the end of all the Sprints are done, we will have a build that we run in a local simulator. And from there we just need to export and upload to the app store.
- [104:15]
Akash
Wow. All right, so how are agents doing?
- [104:19]
Gabor Meyer
Okay, so the build has gone through and I found a small inaccuracy or a couple of small inaccuracies, mainly around how our AI is identifying the actual topics that are being caused. So I had to prompt them to improve the quality of how the AI identifies this, the right content from the knowledge base. But now I think it should be decent. The good news is that we've got our build. So let me just restart the build and we will see it right here, what happens. But this is already a working build.
- [105:05]
Akash
Wow, that's exciting. Yeah, so the coding was the short part. If I reflect on this, like once you had it, create the tickets, just a couple prompts, front and back end. Now we got it working out.
- [105:18]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, it is actually, because the definition is really the investment into creating the good backbone of the whole project and the whole application. And once that's done, then the coding goes quite fast. And that's what, that's what holds back most product managers. It is just simply, oh, I don't know where to start, how to set up my system. But at the end, once you set it up, it gets actually quite quick and interesting. So let's restart the app. This one, this window restarted a new build, but we actually just need to restart the app, restart the app in the simulator. With the existing build. So now it will restart the app and then we will need to push it to test flight.
- [106:26]
Akash
Awesome. That's really exciting. I like how we did all this work and now we're really seeing the fruits of our labor and somebody who previously was scared of coding, all of a sudden they're literally building an app on the phone.
- [106:44]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, exactly. And now you just have almost no limit on what you are able to do.
- [106:52]
Akash
And for you personally, what's like the. When do you squeeze this in? Are you staying up late? Because being a Google PM isn't known to be an easy job.
- [107:00]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah. So in general, it is something that I can easily do until like 4am in the morning on the weekends. And I need to actively force myself to go sleep during the weekdays because otherwise I. I would just not wake up. But also it helps when I know that, you know, next morning. Let's say I'm usually a morning person and I usually go to the gym session in the weekdays, in the morning. And I know that if I don't go to sleep, I won't be able to wake up for the gym. So, yeah, that's a good motivator as well, because we sit enough all day. All right. Unlike our agents, who are not sitting around at all.
- [107:46]
Akash
Is there a way you're keeping them working like 24 7, like overnight or something?
- [107:51]
Gabor Meyer
I haven't been able to keep them running that long, but I have been able to keep them running for kind of decently long enough over, let's say, half an hour, one hour. That can easily happen. So that's not a problem.
- [108:12]
Akash
So for people who don't know what's going on, basically, Claude has used Apple's SDK in order to pull up this app called Simulator. And so Simulator pulls an iPhone up on your computer and you can touch and click it like an iPhone. So that's what we're doing now.
- [108:30]
Gabor Meyer
Yes. I don't know if you realized the splash screen, that was a small Easter egg there. I'm blind, I'm deaf, I want to be a ref. This is one of the fun things that I've heard from, from the spectators, from the audience, when I was a referee. So, yeah, here is our app. So welcome to our AI consultant for ice hockey rules. So let's start with a simple one. Here are a few chips which the app provided. So what's a tripping? This is sent to the AI, and the AI at this time is using all the knowledge bases in the background to understand our requests. I actually added an observer mode, so if you turn that on, you can see in a little bit more detail what is happening. So it searched the rulebook, it found four hits. It's search the secondary resource, the situation book, which is the other official IIHF documentation for referees. And then it didn't even go forward to the web because these five hits were enough to find out and we can see how many tokens we used and what was the output and what was the latency. So yeah, but we don't need the observer mode, but we just need the actual explanation. So this is what tripping is in Isoki. And if you want to know the details, here is the actual wording from the book, from the rulebook. And if you don't believe, then you can even look up the PDF and it brings up exactly there. Here is stripping rule number 57.
- [110:33]
Akash
I think that's actually the killer feature right there. Being able to go through rulebook for you.
- [110:40]
Gabor Meyer
Exactly. And not just the rulebook, but actually it goes through the situation book as well, which usually is the extended version of the rulebook with examples. So let's see another one. What's hooking? So now it will do the same. It explains.
- [111:03]
Akash
So we've created an AI powered app. Not just any app, guys.
- [111:08]
Gabor Meyer
Yes. So I created an AI powered app which has two knowledge bases in the background
- [111:18]
Akash
and we didn't even go into all the details of, hey, is this a graph rag? Is this a vector rag? Claude code took all of that for you.
- [111:26]
Gabor Meyer
I was actually, I did define. Because I said that it should be a vector and. Or maybe I didn't say that it should be a vector, but when I defined that it should be a vertex database, that implies that vertex is a vector database. So it did imply that it. It would be embeddings.
- [111:51]
Akash
Oh, there we go. So there is some level of specification.
- [111:54]
Gabor Meyer
Yes. All right. Anyways, let's push it to TestFlight because that was our promise at the beginning of the session, that in one session we get to the test flight. So push the build to Test Flight. What happens at this time is I had to set up Test Flight before, but if you look at my test flight, which should be somewhere here. Yeah. So I set it up, but currently I have no builds, so I will just get the very first build now uploaded into Test Flight. So what I had to do is just fill in the basic details about what the product is or what the app is, what the app does. If I want to go further from TestFlight and I want to actually launch the app, then I would need to add screenshots as well as I would need to create the support URL. I would need to create the privacy URL. Fun fact, these privacy and other URLs are easily created also by cloud code and you can host it on Firebase as well. Therefore, you just give the prompt, create my privacy page, you redirect the URL and it's done. But for now what matters for us is uploading the build. Okay, so the production build is still running, which is good. Yeah. So now it is just a little bit of a waiting game while it gets to Test Flight and then we can see it being deployed on the phone. So that concludes basically the whole project. Let me quickly just go through what exactly we did. So we started basically from Claude where we defined specified our application, then it created the specification in Confluence. After having the specification in Confluence, we went into figma make where we prompted Figma make to create our design package, like design briefing for the app. After that we went into the actual figma to create the screens. Once we had the screens, we went back to cloud code and asked the agents to create our development tickets. Probably if I refresh this page now, I will have a lot more. Yeah, 51 tickets are now in done stage and a couple of them, a couple of bugs are open in the backlog for tickets. All the rest basically are done from the backlog element. And then we pushed the code to a simulator and from the simulator when we saw that, okay, it is doing what it needs to do, then we are now uploading it to to Test Flight. And from Test Flight is just one step, uploading some screenshots and descriptions and submitting it for Apple's review.
- [115:34]
Akash
Pretty cool. I had Gemini try to create a little summary of what we did here. So it got one thing wrong, but I got the rest of it right. We had the system analyst, we actually he Gabor used Claude to create that prompt, not Confluence. And then the design pipeline to figma make and figma the development, ticketing, the flutter, front end development, the QA and review and now we're in deployment.
- [115:58]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, that sounds good.
- [116:00]
Akash
Yeah. Notebook LM is pretty awesome.
- [116:03]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, I love, I love NotebookLM.
- [116:05]
Akash
It's one of my favorite harnesses. I think Claude code is like my favorite. But Notebook LM is like second.
- [116:12]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, it really helps when you want to understand complex, complex problems or complex ecosystems systems or complex topics. You just throw in everything that you know about it and then it will make sense of it for you.
- [116:29]
Akash
So let's talk about that Covid unemployment. You actually in a LinkedIn post said you were delivering food on Deliveroo. So you went from delivering food on Deliveroo to product manager at Google. You have to tell us the inside story of how you cracked Google.
- [116:44]
Gabor Meyer
Right. So there was one step in between. But let me give you the full story. So late 2019 I changed job And I started with a new company just at the beginning of 2020 and Covid hit around April 2020 and the company where I worked was hit by Covid and I found myself being relatively new, living in London, but coming from Hungary where I lived for 30 years in my life. So my savings were decent on a Hungarian level. But when you move to London, that's another step change. And the biggest problem was that during those days, UK being an island and you not being allowed to fly out on a commercial flight because it's a lockdown, and France saying that, nope, we are not allowing anybody to cross the British Channel, there were no routes out of the uk. This means that I had to stay in London. And yeah, my other unfortunate situation was that given that I changed job and I worked for a small startup, the startup asked me to be a self employed instead of a proper employee. So when Covid hit, everybody who got laid off, who used to be an employee got government help. But I, since I was a self employed and I only had like two months, three months under my belt as a self employed, they required a full year in order to get some money from the government. I got nothing. So my Hungarian savings were flying out of the window with the London rent prices. And back then I didn't really have any fancy FAANG company on my resume and there were literally almost no jobs to interview for. And I found myself that, okay, so now is the time then you need to do what you need to do. You need to put some, you know, food on the table. So I took the one job that at that time was available for me. We were only allowed to work as new riders at the peakest peak times, like Friday afternoon and Saturday afternoon. It is not an easy job. It is not an easy job. I have to tell you that it was a humbling experience. So yeah, it wasn't easy, it was a humbling time, but now it's a good memory and it's a good story.
- [119:35]
Akash
So how did you crack Google? What was the process for you?
- [119:38]
Gabor Meyer
Like how did I crack Google? So after the unemployment, I got a job in between which was kind of a fixed term contract backstop job. I was really fortunate to to land that, which allowed me to kind of get back on my feet. And I managed to find someone online who was offering some help for candidates who were preparing for faang interviews. And I didn't have the money to pay them, but I knew that I had to get some help because previously I went into FAANG interviews, but I always failed at the Last step, I went into the loop, but I didn't get the job. So I knew that something was broken and I knew that I needed help. Therefore, I put down the deposit from almost my last money and I said, I will collect the rest of the money and I will come back in a few months and then we will work together. And that's what I did. I saved up some money and I actually made a deal. I said, you are too expensive for me. I pay you half the money if I don't get in, but I pay twice the money if I get in. And the course said, game on. And guess what? He got twice the money.
- [121:10]
Akash
So you actually invested in cracking it. You worked really hard. Obviously, if you're investing money, you probably put in tens, hundreds of hours practicing on top of that. So you didn't treat these interviews lightly?
- [121:24]
Gabor Meyer
No, I absolutely didn't. So I think I prepared overall for the interviews about 200 hours. My pace for those weeks were that I typically had four mock interviews per week and I had one coaching session per week. That's how I operated. And the best part was when you, when you do so many mock interviews, you start to find other people who are also similarly good. Because you just go through so many people in the practice that you will find, okay, this, this person was really good in the practice. So I found three other people. It was a group of four of us, and out of the four of us, three of us made it into Google. One in the United States, one in one, actually two in the U.S. and I myself in Switzerland. But we didn't know each other before. Like, we had zero connection to each other. We just found each other online and we started to practice together.
- [122:36]
Akash
Do you remember where was it? Exponent, Lewis, Lynn, how'd you find them?
- [122:40]
Gabor Meyer
I think it was at that time they had on igotanoffer.com a special group where you could only get to practice if you had an active Fang interview process on. So you had to send to Exponent, your recruiter email in order to be allowed into that practice community. That was their quality bar.
- [123:11]
Akash
Very cool. Yeah, everybody wants to become an aipm that I talk to. They're all saying, hey, it gets 30% pay bomb. But there's more AIPM jobs. It's 30% of open PM jobs as well. Should people be getting AIPM certificates to get an AIPM job?
- [123:28]
Gabor Meyer
That's an interesting one and I actually have a similar answer to it. What I always had about the Scrum certificates or Agile certificates, the certificate itself is not the thing that you need, the knowledge is what you need. I don't think anybody should pay for a certificate for the certificates sake. Pay for a course for the knowledge, not for the certificate. And that's where people go wrong. Because oftentimes these courses are fully automated. You pay the money you get in there. There are those sessions, whether or not you attended the sessions, whether or not you learned anything at the end, it automatically generates you a PDF. But the PDF will worth very little when you actually need to do something about AI. So the best courses are the ones that you need to have hands on building exercises with AI, because then you are gaining experience and whether or not you get a certificate at the end, that's kind of secondary. The absolute best places to do some learning is where you not just build something, but you build something that you can later on share. And there is actually a contradiction that. Couple of years ago I had a very strong opinion that product managers would not need a portfolio. And I'm actually lately refining this opinion. And I believe that if you can demonstrate that you build something now, it is valuable because the product management practice and the product management profession is quite split right now. Every company wants to do AI, but the reality of product managers within companies is that if you are one of the few lucky ones within a company that works in an area where building AI makes sense and your leadership wants to invest into AI, you will gain AI experience. But the majority of the PMs in their everyday job may not touch any AI product for the next year or two, just because it doesn't trickle down that fast to every place in every company. And for those PMs who don't have the chance to work on AI initiatives within their job, all they are left with is trying to make themselves more productive. With ChatGPT, which is not going to cut it in two years, the gap will be so big between those who build and those who are just productivity AI users that it will be very hard to catch up. That's why I recommend everybody to start building, if not within your work than outside of your work. Not because you want to build a business out of it, just because you want to experience it and you want to demonstrate that you are able to build.
- [126:43]
Akash
And what are the tools that PM should be investing their time in today? We obviously really triple clicked on Claude Code. What is your take on Claude Cowork and Claude Dispatch?
- [126:56]
Gabor Meyer
Cowork and Dispatch are still. I feel that they are a little bit premature and somewhat moderately reliable. They are interesting because you can achieve more with them and you can let the AI do more without you. And they can handle through a browser extension, they can operate your browser. They can do much more than just the chat itself. But right now I find that they are quite fragile and not necessarily reliable, but they are getting better by the day.
- [127:42]
Akash
Man. Two weeks ago you thought they were shit, but it sounds like you've changed your tune on that.
- [127:47]
Gabor Meyer
Don't tell anyone. Yeah, two weeks ago we had a conversation. Oh, so how do you find dispatch? Oh, it's absolutely shit. It was, it was, but now it's, now it's just fragile. So I think another couple of weeks go by and by the time this video is published it will be probably reasonable and then another few weeks and it will be, oh my God, this is the best thing ever.
- [128:16]
Akash
So you mentioned a PM portfolio and I actually want to triple click on that. How do you create a PM portfolio that really helps you crack into the top tier of jobs and faang companies?
- [128:29]
Gabor Meyer
I'm not sure if I have the right answer for it, but I do have an approach for it. So as you could see in the app that we built today, I added an observation mode. And the reason why I added that, because if I would ever want to show this app to anyone, I would turn on that observation mode and I could walk through the listener. What I built in the background, how those things are working, what are the knowledge bases. I can tell an interesting story about the calibration of the scoring. When I was putting together the. When I found actually a bug in the app where it didn't identify the correct section of the rulebook, I started to troubleshoot why and I found a fascinating story about it and I actually documented it here. So there was a problem in there where the scoring, which is a multi component scoring that identifies whether the rulebook part is relevant for the query or not, did not understand the difference between penalties and penalty or boarding and board. So I had to add this. And also some of the thresholds were just too strict. So when I would say this story and I would explain how did this impact the actual user experience? This would be a really good not portfolio, but like a demonstration story. So while I cannot necessarily advise you on how a really good portfolio look like, I would say that if you have a couple of stories like this about how you build and fine tuned AI, that is definitely a useful story to tell.
- [130:45]
Akash
Awesome.
- [130:46]
Gabor Meyer
All right, this is what we've been waiting for. So let's now distribute the app and we can put it into test flight so now it's going to prepare the upload, it's going to do the signing and then uploading. So in probably like three to five minutes, we will have our first test flight build in the App Store Connect Test flight section. All right, so it seems that we finally managed to upload our app to the test flight. Let's refresh. Yes, there is the build. So now we just need to wait while Apple processes it. This usually takes a couple of minutes and once the processing is done, we can invite our internal testers to start testing the application on their devices and they will be able to download it anywhere in the world as long as they are invited as testers. And after that, you can just launch the product. Wow.
- [131:55]
Akash
So now we actually have the app in testflight.
- [131:57]
Gabor Meyer
Yeah, it took us a while, but it is there. And again from here, it's only the question of uploading all those screenshots and filling in the different distribution details and phone numbers and descriptions and keywords. And in a couple of days, you will be in the actual App Store. The one thing I would warn everybody that given that the barrier to entry for building apps is now lower than ever, suddenly the App Store reviews, especially for the very first submission, they are just stretching over many days. Like I expected based on Apple's documentation, that it would take one or maximum two days, but it took more than a week to get the first review done. So just brace yourself for that.
- [132:51]
Akash
That sounds exactly like how it was when I was building apps back in 2012. So good luck, guys. Gabor, Today's class has been just that, a masterclass, I think, in how a PM can potentially put on that founder hat, start to make themselves become a product builder, start to embrace the new way of product management. And like you said, the gap between you and the other PM in two years, it's going to be huge. So make sure to use the time to do a similar activity to what we've shown in today's episode. If people want to get started, where should they go?
- [133:25]
Gabor Meyer
If people want to get started, the best place to start, if you just want to do it for yourself, pull up your favorite AI ChatGPT Gemini Cloud code and start asking questions how to do things. If you have time, this is the cheapest way to get started. If you want to accelerate your journey and you want some structured information to start building and kind of shortcut your way from idea to build to actually doing it, then you should ask for some help. I, amongst many others, can help you. If you want to check out how I help folks building their own apps. Just go on Maven and you can find my AI builder course there.
- [134:18]
Akash
So check out his Maven course and I think he's a great follow on LinkedIn as well. Gabor, thanks for being so generous with your time. I know preparing this episode itself probably took 10 plus hours than doing it. Really appreciate you.
- [134:30]
Gabor Meyer
Thank you so much.
- [134:32]
Akash
Bye everyone. I hope you enjoyed that episode. If you could take a moment to double check that you have followed on Apple and Spotify podcasts, subscribed on YouTube, left a rating or review on Apple or Spotify and commented on YouTube. All these things will help the algorithm distribute the show to more and more people. As we distribute the show to more people, we can grow the show, improve the quality of the content and the production to get you better insights to stay ahead in your career. Finally, do check out my bundle@bundle.akashgi.com to get access to nine AI products for an entire year for free. This includes Dovetail, Mobin, Linear, Reforge, Build, Descript, and many other amazing tools that will help you as an AI product manager or builder succeed. I'll see you in the next episode.