Martina Luchenko (3:13)

Yes. Well, I will say part of why I'm such a fan of this conversation, I'll say first, I think anyone that wants a guidebook, literally the book on this is radical candor. So I can't recommend that book enough. That being said, I was introduced about 20 years into my career into a really instructive framework that helps you have any kind of feedback that might be challenging. And the very first thing, and this is the most important thing, is to establish the context of why you're having the feedbacky conversation. Christian, I really value our working relationship and I want to talk to you about the last meeting we just had that actually felt uncomfortable. Here's my experience of it. Then I tell you my version of it, acknowledging that it was my experience. Christian, when you said this about the product decision I had made it. It felt like you were judging me and that you had felt like I'd made a really bad decision even though I'd really researched it. I'm sure that wasn't your intent, but it made me feel like shit in front of all of my peers. Then here's the key. So number one, establish context. Number two, say your side of the story. But number three, and this is the important thing that all of us miss, is ask for the other person's version of the story. Christian, I am curious what your experience of that was. And then you might explain to me, oh my gosh, Martina, I wasn't even thinking about it. I just made that comment completely off the cuff. I had no idea how it might come across. You were right. I should have thought more about the context of how that might land in your peers. I trust your judgment and 99% of the time you and I are aligned. So I was surprised that we worked. And so that's why I brought voice to it so quickly and in that tone. So I'm really sorry that it came across that way. Thank you so much for alerting me that that's how it came across. Then at that moment, everyone has this g. You, as a manager, had a gift that you made a quick decision that to you meant something completely different that was experienced by your employees so differently. It creates peace and alignment between you two, and the context was understood. I'm not criticizing you. I'm not judging you, but I need to let you know what happened for me. And that made me feel kind of bad. And it's these kind of small conversations that, if we have them all along the way, keep our collaborative relationships healthy. And this is what tends to break down, particularly in the world of product, where we have so many relationships that people start to mistake a comment here and a comment there for a behavioral shift or, oh, now this person doesn't like me, or I just can't work with this person anymore. We presume that these little things added up to something that might be entirely wrong. The more you can, like, let these things, instead of popping the balloon little, have a little pinhole moment here and there. And that just keeps things much healthier. So that was my huge epiphany, that. Man, I wish I had this tool way earlier in my career.

Christian (6:02)

You know, when you started describing that scenario, you know, I felt uneasy or you made me uncomfortable in that I could see that being the place in which most people get defensive and they might not even let you finish.

Martina Luchenko (6:15)

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Christian (6:16)

What do you mean in that kind of way? You know, I wasn't trying to do that. But you called out a couple of things that I think are important to reiterate in how you're describing this framework. You're saying the first thing you want to do is kind of establish the context. In some ways, there's maybe some reforming the trust of who you are and they are and building that safe enough place to do that. You are telling what you experienced and also talking about how you felt in that experience, and you're asking them for their experience before you're giving that feedback. And I like that a lot, because it's almost like if someone understands that, they know they'll get a chance to narrate their experience and being defensive about the experience, because it is absolutely fair and valid for you to feel what you feel in an experience. And in some ways, you want to assume positive intent by asking for the person's version because you don't want to say you were trying to make me feel this way. You were Trying to do this to hurt me. And that is a very powerful tool. I wish I had this last night when I was having a nice conversation with my daughter. You know, it's kind of like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, I am. Dad. I am not saying you're bad. You know, kind of like, let me seek to understand before you're understood in some interesting way. Now, people have had situations where leaders don't have a framework like this. They don't have a way to communicate it, or they haven't taken the time to figure out if there's a better, healthier way. And so this often doesn't come across this nicely. This structured, this well, thoughtful. I mean, you were giving me that feedback. I didn't have a meeting with you, but I was like, yes, patina. I'm like, very receptive. I can see the effectiveness of it. What do you do when you don't have that? How do you receive the feedback? But still maybe try to help that leader or manager present it in a manner that is better or sticks.

Martina Luchenko (8:05)

Well, two things. One, this is why I wanted to do this podcast with you, Christian, because I'm like, man, this framework is so valuable. And if you become an evangelist from the framework, you're just spreading the toolset, and it's just going to make everyone's workplace better. So if you are listening to this and you think, man, this would be really valuable for our team, go back to your team meeting and just say, hey, guys, I just learned a really valuable, valuable framework that can help us give feedback in those moments where we accidentally step on our toes. Let's. Let's try it. Let's deploy it. So thing one, give it a try. If you think this will work and helping your environment introduce it to others, it will only help everyone. But thing two is sometimes you'll find yourself, I'm not in a feedback arena, or this person doesn't know the framework, and you start to feel someone escalating or being defensive or rising to challenge you more, and you're like, okay, this person's totally not hearing what I'm saying. Instead of challenging back. So that a way of. Of getting toward this outcome without having the framework is to lead with where you agree. I actually am agreeing with everything that you're saying. You're. You're giving them something that lets them hold on to, oh, we're. I'm not being challenged. It helps to de. Escalate things a little bit and not just have the person focus on where there's difference or disagreement. So lead with where you agree. I actually agree with everything you're saying. The one point I'm just trying to make is this. And I. I hope you hear, my intent here is not to change. Lead with where you agree, clarify your intent, even if you're. It's not going to be this beautiful framework you exchange, have your intent included there. And then also really focus on I statements. Here's what I'm trying to do. Let me just clarify where I am coming from here. So it's not viewed as a challenge, I will say, for myself and as a woman, as a strong woman, both in product and many other environments, it was. And here's where feedback is really valuable. I would look at my reviews and I would say, wow, people sometimes experience me really differently than how I intend. Like, when I put forth a strong opinion, sometimes people view it as challenging. I'm not challenging them. I'm literally just saying, like, hey, I wonder if we've thought of this. So I have two words or two phrases that have been game changers for me in my career. So, again, just passing the toolset along. Number one is leading with, I'm curious if. Or have we considered. And so it's not diminishing. A diminishing statement would be, this is probably a stupid idea, but. Or I'm sure you've already considered this, but it's just saying, have we considered? Which is just saying, like, maybe we have or maybe I wasn't there.

Christian (10:33)

Yes. But there's.

Martina Luchenko (10:34)

There's a tiny way of softening it so that it's not perceived as a challenge. So those are some additional tools.

Christian (10:42)

You are full of tools in this toolbox, Martina. We are coming to your playground more often because I love the tools you have in here. I mean, look, just the. I'm curious if. Have you considered just your word choice? You called out a couple of things here that I thought were just pure gold kind of leading with where you have common agreement. I learned from a coach very early in my career, kind of a technique to get people to agree with you in difficult conversations. And, you know, so if I know Martina, and I'm like, oh, you know, Martina, you love baseball in some ways. Okay, Martina, you love Coca Cola. Like, these are just things I know you love. If I wanted to get you to agree with me on something, I will come to you and say, you know, Martina, love baseball. What I'm doing is I'm finding the things you love that I love. And you're shaking your head, I love baseball, too. And you Say, you know what? I also love Coca Cola when I'm hanging out. That's my drink of choice. You're like, me too. That's my drink of choice. And now I throw in the other thing too. And I'm just like, I would like us to make a decision on what we do with this product. And the other person is also thinking, if they love the things I love, I must also love this decision too, as well. And he said, the more you can get people to get into a posture in which they can see commonality, the more receptive they are to new ideas and feedback. And there's kind of this FBI technique of what they say, the difference between a perspective and perception. And that, you know, many people get into arguments because they cannot see another person's perspective, and they are fighting for people to see theirs. And that, you know, the kind of more evolved technique is when you can place yourself in people's perspectives and create the perception that you are them. It's like this magical trick they use in interrogation and in the work they do. And. But some of that requires an absence of arrogance, of ego. This requires people to feel very secure. Humility. I mean, maybe talk to me a little about this, because are we raising the bar? Because there's almost some patience moving towards your choosing. I feel in several cases or instances, maybe most managers or leaders maybe not even having the patience, but do not believe it's warranted to try to do it well. Meaning they're just like, why do I have to use an inclusive choice language? Something that makes you feel good, you know, why can't I just say, martina, you suck? You know, that was terrible. I hate it. Never do it again. Why do I have to try to work hard to explain it? Like maybe say more about what it requires in a leader to actually do good feedback?

Martina Luchenko (13:13)

Yeah, well, like, some might describe your approach like that, the tough love approach. Sometimes people just need tough love. And there are. There are a lot of people who believe that, like in my family directly, we're a tough love family, which was just like, bleh. You just put it out there. And it doesn't matter if you diminish someone, because it's true. And I think the motivation as a leader to turn inward and be a little bit more humble is. And I do think this is a gift of. As we get later in our careers, we realize that there is no absolute truth in a situation. It is each person's experience, and they might feel equally strongly about their version of the world. Both were present Both experienced. It can't be a battle about who is more right. It's how are we going to move forward or how are we going to progress. And then you take it as an opportunity to learn. And so as a leader, it's easy to look at leadership when you're earlier in career and say you just acquire a bunch of skills, you get better and smarter and then you exercise judgment and you adjudicate. Isn't that what a leader's supposed to do? And I would actually say as I have grown as a leader, it has been the opposite. I judge less, I am much more humble, I am much more open. And all of these things have completely next leveled me as a leader. And they were non obvious from the outside.

Christian (14:32)

Wow. As we're describing this, there's the dynamic of as a leader, you can give feedback to someone that you're cool coaching or mentoring or works for you. Does this framework change? Does your posture, your tone, the words you use change when you're giving feedback up? I mean let's go to the highest of cases. You're giving feedback to like a CEO and you're just an employee in the company and you see something in that way, maybe role play, how you will give feedback on some decision you thought was bad or something that affected you to someone that is, you know, you feel has some power over your career or is the most senior leader in the room. It's not like it can be escalated higher than them. Does something change in this framework?

Martina Luchenko (15:13)

Well, it's interesting. Where I learned this framework was we were teaching it to our CEOs.

Christian (15:18)

Oh.

Martina Luchenko (15:19)

And so the specific setup was we did a bunch of three 60s of our CEOs at the coast. So Cos no adventures my day job. We have a lot of earlier stage CEOs and there are many who are CEOs for the first time. So they've been very successful executives in companies before. But being a CEO is very different. The amount of power and authority you have as the CEO is disproportional. And so you might make an offhanded comment as a CEO and it has extraordinary impact to the entire organization. So you have to have this awareness. So we were giving them this framework so they had a tool with which to have more challenging conversations with their executive team. Because a CEO to an executive feedback situation is tough. But we realized in this that it was a powerful tool in both directions. For a CEO to feel challenged is always challenging. And so you want to do the same thing. I like I'm on a Board. I just had a conversation recently with a CEO CEO where I had to give him feedback. I was concerned about what was happening. And so I said, hey, you know, I think the world of you. You know, I think you are a great leader and there's all the stuff that you're doing. Well, let me tell you why I'm concerned and I'm curious how you are feeling. And so it let it be a super productive conversation, even though, I mean, the, the power dynamic is there. But he knew my intentions. We knew that we were trying to drive to the same end, which was we just, we just want the company to be better. I wasn't trying to challenge him or judge him. And I made that really clear right up front. So I think particularly when you are trying to pass feedback up, it's to clarify, I'm not trying to judge you. I'm not trying to diminish you as a leader. We share the same goal, which is wants things to be better. And I'm not sure if we're on the same page about how to get there. And I'd love to understand your thinking because maybe there's stuff I don't see. And so it's an invitation. Maybe as a CEO or as a leader, you might say, like, this person can't know the things. I know it's okay to say there are things that you probably can't see that I can't tell you. But I love your trust that I have that perspective that you just brought to me in mind. That would be the elevated response. So a very elevated leader and CEO, and I would say you're kind of asking this, like, sometimes someone's going to swoop and poop on you, they're going to give you PP back, it's going to totally suck, and they're going to leave the room and there's nothing you can do about it there. I would just say that's part of working in organizations and part of relationships. And sometimes we just have to deal with the suck. So let's, let's call a spade a spade. The world is not perfect.

Christian (17:40)

That's right. You know, the soup on poop is a very common product dynamic in many product organizations. I mean, the kind of the leaving the room type of thing is like, I'm just going to drop the mic. You know, this is what we're doing. We're going to build this. And I often have to coach teams. You know, unless it is pointedly said, it's a directive, it's an idea, but you know, it's just like, how do you re engage and kind of to your framework, people try to be right. Explain yourself, tell me. I always say engage with saying I want to make sure we succeed. So it opens up the stuff of like, you are not here to fight what we want to do, but you want to support it. You know, it's kind of like a posture of saying, what does success look like? Like how we know we are winning at this and you're opening people up to a deeper conversation now. Martina, is there a. Where do you give feedback? Are these private conversations inside from. Is there a place you feel safer giving feedback than others? Like, if it's hard feedback, do you want people around? In some ways, yeah.

Martina Luchenko (18:36)

Great question. And I would say hard feedback as much as possible privately, but in person and it can be a zoom call. Ideally, it's face to face. Email is the worst place on the planet for feedback and here's why. No one can feel tone. There's no human being like giving an expression or, or, or connection. And so it is experience however you hear it. And like this had just happened to me recently. My boss, who I love, sent me feedback via email that he just, he's like, I just wanted to send this to you on time. And he did the right thing. He's like, you know, context, blah, blah. But then when I read his feedback, I just felt like, oh my God. He totally felt like I did something bad. And I was like, what else? And he sent it to me on a Friday and he' I'm happy to talk with you more on Monday, but for the whole weekend I was stewing over it and going like, oh my God. And then we met on Monday. I fully understood his intentions. I listened, I could appreciate the feedback and take it as the gift of what it was. And he's like, you know, I just, I just wanted to let you know this could have come across this way in a meeting and that might not have been a good look. And I was like, okay. He was doing this from this place of caring and not a place of criticism. But all I saw in the email was criticism, like, oh, human beings. That's why, like take, take the email out. It's. It's terrible most of the time.

Christian (19:54)

That's right. I mean, it's kind of. We always say praise in, in public, criticize in private, but you know, that's kind of like an email. Soup and poop, they just kind of left you hanging and you want more. And you know, people interpret so many different things in Your word choice in, your tone in, you know, caps. You put things in caps. It must be bad. You know, we've talked a little about critical feedback, important feedback to kind of help people. Feedback can also be very positive. And I also feel people can blow giving positive feedback. You know, how someone can try to want to give you good feedback, but you actually feel bad after they've given it to you. You're like, is that a good thing or a bad thing? Help me with a scenario of giving me good feedback in this kind of a framework in your lens and what ideally it should feel like when you're receiving good feedback.

Martina Luchenko (20:39)

Yeah. So this is another place where context and specificity is very, very helpful. So if you just did a presentation, Christian and I thought it was great. Let's say I'm your boss and you've been working your strategic skills and you just did a presentation where you nailed it. And I just said, christian, that was excellent, great job. And I walk away and you're like, okay, great. But you didn't actually learn what advanced my point of view. Were you just, you know, giving me a kudos to make me feel good was what was real there. But if afterwards I went, you know, like, Christian, I just wanted to let you know, I saw how much extra time you spent on the strategy section and when you pointed out how competitor A was really making a difference to competitor B's market and why we needed to respond, that was the real evidence at how much you've advanced your thinking here. So, bravo, Excellent work. Those are to. You are going to take that.

Christian (21:30)

Yes.

Martina Luchenko (21:31)

So differently.

Christian (21:32)

You're kind of differentiating, like recognition, appreciation and what real feedback is. I think part of why this is tough for many leaders is because they are not really coaching. I was coaching a company last week and someone came to me afterwards and said, you know, I'm struggling because my manager doesn't ever want me to talk to his boss. My manager hides all my work from his boss, never tells anything I do. Never. You know, it's like in any meeting, his boss is there, never wants me there. And I don't understand why, you know, and I've asked him to tell me, you know, he's like, no, I don't want you bothering the boss in that way. Just tell me what you need and I'll take it up in that way. And you kind of describe, many managers see their role as delivering the outputs of, you know, we want more revenue. My job is to use all these people to get revenue. Revenue rather than the job of the people at their product in that way. And so there's sometimes this insecurity, like if I expose a high performer or a great individual contributor to my boss, they will outshine me, they will look better than me in some ways, and they stop investing in the person and cannot give specifics. And I often kind of say, if you are coaching someone, if you are invested in someone, you are participant in their group, the biggest credit you get is not the products you build. But, like, this person got promoted, they got better in their career, personally and professionally. And so you start to actually see those little things. You care about how their work comes together. Because the example you gave, I didn't even need context. All I felt in that moment is, wow, you saw me. You understood what it took to create this. You recognize the work or the sweat or the energy that went into doing it. It's beyond you recognizing what happened at the end or trying to, you know, let me plan for you. Great job. In that way, you are saying, this is the feedback I'm giving. Giving you. This equals this result. And I think that is the mindset of coaching that is often missing in many dynamics. Because if you didn't care about how the presentation came together, then the best you can do is watch the outcome and say, oh, that was terrible, or, you know, that was great. Good job. But if you were actually involved in coaching the person, you could actually understand what it took. And so I think there is something to feedback in general that actually requires a mindset shift of what the role of a manager or a person in your life will be like. Participant in helping you get better. That's the idea. You can get better by me just appreciating or recognizing you. You can get better by you calling out specifics.

Martina Luchenko (24:00)

So this is something that I actually learned for interviewing product managers, which is where I started my career. And this was a technique that Microsoft taught that I've used ever since. But it's. The interviewer should be as working as hard as the interviewee during the interview. Interview, you're not just there to ask questions and listen. You're there to learn, to engage. And you should be thinking as you're listening to this person talk. Well, how else do I want to understand what am I learning as a result of what I'm hearing? So your brain is working on overdrive as an interviewer. You're not just listening. And I think that applies to leaders as well, to managers who actually want to manage well and for. Who want to grow as leaders. When you're observing people on your team's work. You're not just listening. You are actively processing. Okay, what is this exhibiting? You're constantly coaching and you're finding opportunities for where to give specific praise or what's the little bit of. Oh, and here's this thing that you're working on. You want to be CEO someday. So this is a little thing that you could do that would let you be a CEO, because you won't catch those little things that are the big difference makers unless you're always paying attention. So it's not easy street to be a manager. You're just. That's building a different muscle.

Christian (25:11)

Oh, boy. You know, you started by saying, you know, like, if you are a product, if you want to iterate or get better at your product, you have to be hungry to seek feedback. It's the only way you get better, good or bad feedback. And now you're kind of getting me on. If you're a manager, you have to seek opportunities to give feedback. I kind of call it teaching moments. You know, if you're doing practice of anything, you're looking for teaching moments. And the teaching moments come like, you know, where you can be like, freeze. All right, try this this way. Or this is better. I like that kind of speech. In anything you do do that you want to get better at, it requires you to have opportunities to practice and to get feedback on what is good or what is not working. And I think we all have to come to terms with the reality that we have blind spots, we all have insecurities. There's a vulnerability aspect to us working in an environment. I often have to remind people, you are not hired for your weakness. You are hired for your strengths. No company looks for your weakness. To be like, this is why we want you. So first of all, you need to to be very grounded in why you're on the team in the first place. But if you want to get better, you have to practice. And part of what comes out of practicing the work of doing is that somebody is giving you feedback about what is good, where your opportunities are, about what is not working. Well. This was, as I expected, just a magical, fun episode. Martina, I absolutely enjoyed the conversation on feedback. I love your frameworks and thinking and how you brought real examples into this with really clarifying context as one piece, kind of hearing both sides of the stuff, being this kind of radical candor. Please, with trust. I think this would be such a valuable episode for our listeners. Thank you for being here.

Martina Luchenko (26:52)

It is so my pleasure. I'm just paying it forward.

Christian (26:56)

What a gift. You know, and something I've always challenged many leaders on is that if you have not experienced getting good feedback or bad feedback, whatever the case is, you will not have something to give other people people. And so I think it's an important thing to leave people from this episode is probably the best way to create a culture where there is good feedback is for you to give good feedback. Because in a few minutes of just talking with you, I just love the way even the feedback practice you did made me feel. I'm looking forward to giving that gift to others. Thank you for being here.

Martina Luchenko (27:31)

Oh, it's my pleasure, Christian.

Christian (27:33)

Thank you. Want to learn more? Until next time, Please check out svpg.com Sign up for our newsletter that Mary Kagan puts out. Join us for one of our workshops near you and get access to all of the articles and content we put out. And thank you to everyone for joining us. Until next time, have a good day. A Quick Disclaimer While this podcast is named Product Therapy, it is not hosted by licensed therapists or mental health professionals and it is in no way a substitute for professional mental health services. We recognize the importance of mental well being and encourage anyone facing personal difficulties to seek support from qualified professionals. See www.findahelpline.com.