A (4:31)

Oh, I love that a lot. I was just kind of explaining that to my kids in terms of you trying to be the hero versus helping somebody become the hero of their own journey. The idea of the coaching mindset behind that, as a mentor, you can only mentor somebody on something you've had direct experience in. You know, the idea of mentorship is that I have developed expertise in a field and I can share my expertise or my guidance to prevent you from maybe making the same mistakes that I made or learn from my success. And that's the core of sharing my experience and my expertise in mentorship. I think management, I love that framing of, you know, guiding someone's career path. You're maybe guiding even their performance in their current work. You know, where I see coaching, you know, you've kind of called out drawing out someone's thinking, but your singular goal is getting people better at their job, in their role. You're bringing out the best in people, and there's something about you kind of call it skin in the game, kind of. You know, if I mentor you, if I say, gabby, go do this and I'm mentoring you and you don't do this, I'm like, well, she didn't listen to me. It's kind of this, so advising thing. If I advised you in something when you said the best coach is your manager, I think Bill Campbell kind of calls that out like it's not a specialty anymore. It's because of this idea that a coach has a winning record and a losing record, like you do. They may not be actively playing the game with you, but your win or your success is their success. They measure their success by your success. And I love that you're kind of exploring that. All right, well, walk me through your journey of how you got into coaching and why this is a place you like to stay.

B (6:24)

I just want to tap into something that you said around, like, letting the client be the hero. I actually have a lot of clients. They. They come to me and they're like, oh, yeah, you're, like, now part of the team. I'm like, no, no, no. You're the team. You all are the team. And I tell them, like, I love your team. Your team's amazing. But you're the captain of your ship. You have your crew. I'm here to help you navigate. Like, that is where I thrive, and I don't want you to need me. I want me to be, like, a great resource to you, but you are really the captain of your ship, and I want you to take the reins of wherever we need to go on this journey together.

A (7:03)

Okay, you are going to tell me your story of how you got into coaching.

B (7:08)

Honestly, it starts with my mom. So my. My mom's an amazing psychologist, and as a kid, I got to see her build a really thriving, awesome business, and just got to see an incredible woman who I love and really admire change people's lives. Literally, like, every single time I'd run into a client of her, she. They would be like, your mom's amazing. She changed my life. And I'd be like, yeah, she is amazing. I get that. So I think she really inspired me in the beginning. Then the other thing I often say, like, looking back, everything makes sense when you're at the stage. You could never have predicted it, and that's how I felt. But I became a manager super early, and I was both excited and also terrified, I think is the right word. At the time. I knew great managers were great coaches. I had had really Good managers and really bad managers. And I was like, I want to be closer to the good ones, ideally. So I decided to take a coaching course, and I invested in it. I was like, this is the best thing I can do for me and for the people on my team. And after that course, it was so impactful to me, and I kind of felt so guilty. Cause I was like, I came here to learn stuff for other people, but I feel like I'm developing so many things in myself. And they were like, yeah, that's what coaching is. This is why it's so powerful. Like, you change every time you help someone else. And after that course, I was like, you know what? I want to do this one day. And I honestly didn't know it was going to be this. This early. But I think when you're meant to do something, things just kind of happen. So I started meeting all the right people. I met Marty really early on in my career, and he became a really good mentor and a really great friend. Then I got to meet you, I got to meet some of the other partners, and it just all kind of like started forming as, like, a constellation of possibilities. And when I left my last startup, I was running product design, and I wasn't falling in love with any other products or any other honestly teams. And I was like, this job is hard. Like, I'm only gonna do this if I'm in love. Like, I know how hard this thing is. And I had a really meaningful conversation with Marty, and he's like, you told me you wanna do this thing, so I don't think you're gonna fall in love again. I think you're gonna have to do what you told me you wanted to do. And it was beautiful. And it's. It's almost been three years now, and I think it's. Or I know, like, I have the best job in the world, at least for me.

A (9:31)

What a lovely story. And I want to flip to the other side of the argument from people that might say, well, Gabby, I get it, you're a coach, but why do I need a coach? You know, I am an experienced executive. I am a leader. I have been in my career for 10 years. Why do I need a coach? Kind of. What's your response to that?

B (9:51)

I have a couple of responses because I've gotten this question a lot right, and I like to coach awesome people. So I think all my clients are really, really awesome. And I think my. My core realization, when I left running product and I started coaching, I realized how little perspective I Had. I was like, whoa. I was way more in it than I thought. I used to say, like, oh, yeah, I can see the forest. I can. And I was like, no, no, no, no. I'm, like, physically invested. I'm friends with these people. I'm financially invested. I have equity in this company. I was like, there's no way I could have really gotten perspective. And I think that's one of the beautiful things a coach can bring you because they do have skin in the game, but they're seeing things from a different vantage point than you can ever see because they're not in it. You are. And then the other one, that is, like, shorter answer. I tell people, like, the blessed players in the world have a coach. Actually, they have multiple coaches. I like, started getting into, like, basketball when I was in the States. And like, Steph Curry, who I love, I think he's just, like, so awesome. He has, I think, like five or six coaches. He has one that is just does, like the light thing and he goes back and forth. I've never been, like, a super sports person. I danced my whole life, and I like to surf, so those are, like, my true passions. But I see the coaches and I see how amazing they are to their players, and I'm kind of like, everyone deserves that at work. I think it's less about a needing and more about a deserving it.

A (11:22)

I have never framed it like that in, like, I need a coach versus I deserve a coach in that career. And, you know, I often get that question too, particularly success, very successful environments. Why do we need a coach? Why? Why do I need a coach?

B (11:37)

And, yeah, and what do you tell.

A (11:38)

Them to the arguments you make about sports? I'm. I, on the other hand, probably love it. I'm like, thinking to myself, who's the fastest person in the world? You might say Usain Bolt. Or you might say, who's the best shooter in the world? You might say Steph Curry, like you said. I said, by nature of them being the best, that means there's no one better. And then you ask yourself, well, why do they have a coach? And I often have to describe to people the two elements. Doing something is different from getting better at something. And I always kind of describe, you know, it's like Steph Curry. Shooting is his game, is the sport he plays. Getting better at shooting is a different skillset. We have to kind of recognize this, that the idea of coaching is really determining how to get somebody better, pro, more proficient, or to a level of competency that they are Executing at the best that is already within them. You know, it's often an interesting dynamic to kind of shift this thinking, particularly in our product field. When I try to explain to people, when you become a manager, when you become a leader, when you become your products are no longer the things you build, but are the people under your care. That is what your product is. And the same way we iterate and get better at the product, we try to improve it. That's the same thing you do with the people. Look, I have had the fortune of working with some phenomenal companies all around the world. If you are asking me what did I see consistently true about how they unlocked some of their success is because they recognized the importance of coaching. To put it very plainly, if you want better product management in your organization, don't work on products. If you want better products in your company, don't work on the products, work on the people that build the products. If you want better engineering in your company, don't work on some engineering process, some engineering framework, work on the people that are doing engineering. This is how the best companies scale. You know, they make the investment in unlocking the best in the people. And when you realize that everything, I mean literally everything can be coached, you know, in terms of mindsets, behaviors, competencies, thinking, decision framework, you start to kind of say, okay, whatever outcome we want, whatever environment, because products are built by people, you make an investment in the people. And I don't know how to sugarcoat this. You don't get mastery at anything by avoiding it. You don't get better at anything without the reps or the practice in some ways. And I think the core mentality around coaching is that it's the single most important job of a manager to get their people competent at the job they are meant to do. That's the different mindset. So I love kind of how you've kind of framed this out. Maybe let's talk about that mindset. I would love to know kind of your mindset of what makes a good coach. I know you like the idea of coaching starts with listening or how you kind of step into a conversation. Maybe walk me through two elements of coaching to kind of help me understand your philosophy. How do you build trust? How do you create a safe space to have a healthy dialogue? And then kind of some of the idea of what listening plays in. In this dynamic.

B (15:13)

I tell people, like, without trust, you don't have anything. And a lot of people think a lot of these things are like small talk. They're like, oh, why do you care about this person's cat or whatever? And I'm like, because they care about their cat, and it's important to them, so I care about the cat, too. And I want to know, like, how many kids do they have? And I think it was Shreyas. We were. We were having a chat, and he was just like, yeah, you know what? Like, we need to get to, like, 10 years of getting to know someone in, like, an hour. And I was like, yeah, that's right. That's what you need. I tell people, like, I'm here to get to know you. Like, I need to know everything that you love, what you don't love. And I actually changed my intro quite a bit, because in the beginning, I used to talk a lot about what I did for work, and now I share a lot of how I live my life and what I love and what I'm passionate about to encourage them to do the same with me. I focus a lot in that. In the beginning, I really believe in meeting people in person. So any sort of, like, big transformation, big engagement, like, I will fly to meet people. I'd be like, this is important. Like, they need to. You need to know me for who I am, and I need to know you. Um, and if we spend two days getting to know each other, those two days are going to yield so much in the future. So I think it's about investing and knowing that trust is your biggest currency and really what you need. For me, it's genuinely caring about people, which sounds really basic. Uh, but. But I think it's very, very important.

A (16:48)

So. And I love that quote of, people don't care how much you know until they know that you care. How do you demonstrate to somebody that you care?

B (16:57)

I think one of. One of the things is you. You remember things that are important to them. I. I think that's. That's a core thing. There's that quality of, like, it feels like the conversation never ends. You're always kind of, like, picking up where you left off. I think that's something that I always try to do with clients, is feel like, okay, I know so much has happened in their lives. And when we coach product leaders, like, the world could have changed for them in a week, but they know that this is, like, that same place they can get to. I think you also talk about things that are big. You talk about their dreams, you talk about their fears. You talk about the. How hard it is right now, you know, and you draw out this plan together of how you're gonna make their vision a reality. Like, I asked people, like, if you could wave a magic wand in like, six months to a year, like, what does that look like? And then I'm like, how committed are you to getting that? Let's, like, figure out how we get there. I think that there is, like, the deeply knowing someone and then this sharing of a purpose so that they know that you know and they know that you care and that you're here to help them. I think that makes every single kind of, like, harder conversation that comes along afterwards grounded in this deep place of them understanding that you're doing it from a place of care and from a place of you knowing what it takes for them to get there.

A (18:22)

Oh, I love that a lot. You're actually framing some of the aspects that builds vulnerability to accelerate trust. I understand your fears, your frustrations, your dreams, and your goals. When I kind of think about people are more actually attracted to your vulnerability and your anti bio than your bio. You know, when I even talk to people and I share a lot of my failures, I share a lot of the challenges I have been through, it actually sets the stage for what this is. You know, I'll typically even ask people, you know, tell me about the day you joined this company and what excited you. I'll say, well, why are you still here? What motivates you? What's expected of you? What are you most afraid of and your anxieties, and I will share mine, too. And when I try to frame what coaching is, I tell people, this is designed to get you better. It is the place for practice. It is the place for reflection. But in the heart of what you're describing is truly your most vulnerable space. Because if the goal is growth, we all always want to have an honest, candid conversation about where we are. If not, we cannot grow this false idea that I am where I or bigger or higher. This is not the environment for ego, the environment for, you know, I am better at something that I am. This is the only avenue designed for your specific growth. And so I love, love, love kind of how you've kind of framed that. How do you differentiate or how do you set the stage for what they should expect out of coaching? Maybe if someone said, okay, Gabby, I'm in. What should I expect out of my time coaching? And are there any rules I should follow, any rules of engagement in our conversation?

B (20:10)

I like to play the rules of engagement back to them. Like, what is helpful to you? What do you want from me? Right? Like, how do you like to be kept accountable Are there any things I should know that are going to be harder for you or any tone that I should be aware of? Like, I think that there is, like, a beautiful design that you do together, and there isn't that upfront. If there isn't that upfront, you're kind of discovering that along the way. And I like efficiency. Like, I like things that work. So I'm trying to move this conversation, like, as early as possible. So I like to ask people that. I think a core one is what you mentioned Christian around. Like, this is your avenue to really be you. And it's not your avenue to be the one that you are at the all hands meeting, the one that you are at, like, with your team, with your CEO, with the board. Like, you have to be that for them. Here. You can be you. And I should be the person that you're like. You can tell me, like, gabby, I'm terrified. I'm, like, super scared of this thing. Or like I said, I'm going to do this presentation. It's nearly like, I've done zero. Like, I. We're at zero now. I'd be like, okay, well, you can tell me that. Don't tell your CEO that, like, two days from now you're delivering this thing and you haven't done it. But, like, let's figure out how to get you there. So I think that vulnerability, that space is really important. And I also tell people, like, this is a place that, like, yeah, we're going to design what that future looks like. But I always tell my clients, like, let's leave some space for magic, you know, and there's been many times that they told me, oh, I want this thing. And then they actually got it a lot of the time. And then they're like, actually, I think I want something else. And I'm like, well, great. Like, let's figure out what that is. Or like, this awesome opportunity comes their way and we kind of shift our plan. So I think that there's that beautiful, like, flow that can happen, too.

A (22:09)

I love this a whole lot, you know, kind of how you're. You're narrating the expectations ally of being a coach. You know, it's often I spend a lot of time with very senior executives at some companies, and I have to explain to them, like, look, I'm. I'm not teaching you how to be an athlete or even a leader or even an executive. The whole idea is that in many scenarios, you're using new muscle. You're playing. You know, if you want to get promoted. You know, the idea is that you're not promoted to a place to land a job. You're promoted to a place to do the job. And the best place to lend the skills are when you're not in the job, because everybody gives you the grace to fail when you're not doing the job you're supposed to do. But the idea here is that really my value is that I'm outside the field. You know, And I tell people, when you are playing on a sport, you don't see all the variables outside. You don't see how your actions affect you, your stance, your posture, your stuff. And I say, you know, the benefit of me being outside the field is I can see you within context. I can see the blind spots. I can kind of bring that to your attention. But my goal is not to please you. That is a very different dynamic. You know, there are guarantees about what this is going to do. But if you truly understand, my singular goal is to get you better at whatever you're doing. You know, someone said, oh, you know, so busy. I have a presentation with the CEO tomorrow. And I said, okay, have you practiced that presentation? I'm like, well, well, I'm gonna get ready in the mirror. I said, well, let me play CEO. And, you know, we're gonna talk about your CEO. We're gonna talk about how he responds or how she responds. There's the kind of value you get when you see an executive have one rep, just one rep of practice. Not the one in which they hold a note card in the mirror and practice to themselves. But when they are standing in front of somebody trying to practice something, what that does exponentially in the things they bring in the environment. And I said, this is practice space. This is where we do the homework. This is where we are vulnerable. This is where we freeze. Try again. Okay, stop. That didn't look right. All right, let's do that again. Okay, let's try this different approach. You know, and when you think about, how can we help? That's the core of it. And I think it's often missing. And I say, every day you're at work is game time, is show time, is deadline time, is I want the best of you time. So I ask people, where did you have a chance to practice? And I think that's the real essence of what this is.

B (24:51)

And you talked Regine about, like, being on the sidelines. I also think I. And I tell my clients this all the time. They like, very senior, very accomplished, awesome people. They place themselves in these, like, Imaginary limiting boxes. And they start believing stuff that they tell themselves or that other people told them or that they told about other people. And then it starts to kind of like, become a crowded and crammed little space. I think as. As a coach, a lot of my job is to ask them, like, is that true? Like, is this thing true? Sometimes they're like. A lot of the time, actually, they're like, no, not really true. And I'm like, okay, well, what would you do if it wasn't true? Like, you just told me it's not. So, like, what are the other options that are available to you? Quickly, they start to break down these walls that they built that weren't really even there, and they start to see kind of beyond those limitations that it's like, oh, as at this row, you're only supposed to do X. Or at that thing, we have those expectations from you. Or. And I'm like, okay, are those the expectations that you want? Or do you want something else? Do you want more? And I think that's, like, a really beautiful thing when you get people to see that those limitations they actually place on themselves and that because that's the case, they can get out of them.

A (26:09)

You are defining coaching as helping people seek clarity or their own clarity, you know, and that's. And even in the mindset, helping them get out of their own way in achieving the goals that they want. And I. And I like that a lot. I wrote down that quote you said earlier of, like, let's leave some space for magic. And maybe that's some part of the essence of what coaching is. You're helping people discover that space for magic in their lives, in their career. And, you know, it's not just professionally, but also personally in kind of what they do. Let's. Let's shift to. In practice of it. Let me start with an important aspect of coaching, which is giving feedback and maybe drawing it out. Maybe. You know, I come to you and I say, oh, Gabby, you know, I was talking to my CEO. I didn't like what he said, so I screamed at him and I told him this was ridiculous right in the middle of a meeting. I know he felt embarrassed, but, you know, I needed to be clear with him about it. All right, Gabby, you're on. Tell me how you. What, baby? What feedback you give me about that and how you pull it out. How. And maybe how you walk me through an alternative.

B (27:18)

I would. I would tell you. So, Christian, what were you trying to do with this statement?

A (27:24)

Oh, that's good. So I. I was frustrated by what he did, and I was just trying to tell him my frustration.

B (27:30)

And what happened from that.

A (27:33)

I could see on his face he didn't really like it, but I think he got my message, Gabby, so what.

B (27:38)

What was the message that you were trying to get him to get?

A (27:41)

I didn't think this was the right decision for us right now, and I didn't like that. You know, I felt blindsided by it.

B (27:47)

What. What action do you think he's going to take after this interaction?

A (27:51)

Well, I don't really know, but that's why I brought it here. I'm not really sure if, you know, he hasn't spoken to me since then, so I just thought I would bring it up to you in our sessions.

B (28:03)

Why would you think he wouldn't speak to you after that?

A (28:06)

I don't know. I'm really trying to understand him better. We just really started walking closely, but I just didn't like the way he communicated that.

B (28:14)

Interesting. Well, it seems like you're bringing a very different intent, which is to understand him better, to work closely with him. Are. Are those the goals that you have for your conversations moving forward?

A (28:29)

I would like that. I don't know if, you know, he wants to walk with me, but I would like that.

B (28:34)

So, coming from that place, how would you actually ask the question? Or how would you say it differently?

A (28:41)

Oh, this is really good, Gabby.

B (28:42)

And.

A (28:42)

And I can see you're leading. And. And. And to be clear, I didn't prepare this with you because what I wanted to try to capture was the posture of the coaching session that you have. And I could immediately say a couple of things. One, there was this very active listening. You. You were kind of listening and shaking and acknowledging you're in the conversation with me. And two, you were kind of guiding me on my own clarity with questions and kind of probing, so I could kind of see that already kind of come true. And you. You reserved judgment. You did not quickly call me out like I did something wrong or that I broke something in there, and you're kind of guiding me to the discovery of an alternative rather than telling me what the alternative is. So that was great. I mean, I. Again, just another way to kind of throw out. I wanted to quickly capture what it looks like or feels like in the coaching section. And so thank you for doing that for me. Maybe I want to go deeper. Now that I've done that, I think you're warmed up some real coaching scenarios, and let's see how you'll approach it. Let's pick A product one. And maybe we pick a human skill one. All right, let's speak. I'm a product leader, Gabby. Ooh. Everybody keeps complaining that I don't have a good vision or I don't have a good Gabby. I've never done a vision before. I don't even know what a good one looks like. You know, there's just so much pressure. Like, I need a vision. I need a vision. I need some help.

B (30:12)

Where do you think that pressure is coming from?

A (30:14)

Well, I mean, I'm seeing that, you know, many teams are going in different directions. You know, my CEO read this book on, like, product vision, and a leader's job is product vision. He asked me about it. I said, you know, I, I, I provided a statement, but nobody seems to feel, like, good about it.

B (30:32)

Okay, so you gave a statement. Um, what is that statement? Tell me.

A (30:36)

Well, I just said we want to be, like, number one in the world in, in this category.

B (30:41)

Okay. Well, I mean, I think that's a great goal. I love that you all want to be number one in the world. I want you to be number one in the world, too. But I think in order to be number one in the world, we really need to think about how can we shape this world so that we actually become number one? So that's my question to you. How do we change the world in the next, like, five to 10 years to get to that desire?

A (31:08)

Oh, so is that what a vision is? A vision is not. The goal is how I shake the wall in to get to that goal. I mean, Gabby, can you not just do this for me? I mean, can't you just write the vision for me? I'll tell you what I'm thinking.

B (31:21)

I am not the right person to write the vision for you because you're the one that's thinking. You're the one that's living this every single day. So you're actually going to write a way better vision than I could ever do it. But I'm happy to be your co pilot here and to help you since I love vision and I think it's one of the most, like, heart pulling, heartwarming. It almost feels like you get to be, like, the director of a movie. You know, you're, like, making this beautiful story. So, like, I'd love to be an assistant director to you as you take on this lead.

A (31:58)

Lovely. And are we going to come out some time to work on this together? Like, where will I start?

B (32:03)

I love vision, so I wrote a few things on it so I can send them to you. And then I would love you to read them and tell me which questions you have, what landed, what didn't land, what questions you have. And be super honest. Right. Remember, like, you're talking to me, not to the people that are confused or to your CEO or to anyone else. I think our first step after that is for you to write this beautiful narrative of where you think the product can go from the lens of the customer. Remember, like, customers don't really care about our business. They can say they do. They care about themselves, as they should. So we are changing the world for them.

A (32:39)

Oh, I love. Okay, that's another fantastic example. I could see you were very clear. My job is not to fish for you. My job is to teach you how to fish. You were kind of very clear. Context differentiating, actually allowing me to fail in that I'm doing this deliberately because I want to really get to the essence of what coaching feels like. Because I do believe fundamentally that most people don't get good coaching because they've never gotten good coaching themselves and they've never experienced it. So thank you for kind of playing with this. Out with me. Let me pick. Let me pick another example. Like a human skill. Very annoying. Rowdy stakeholder. You know, I kind of feel everybody has that in their company, you know? Oh, Gabby, I just came through this meeting again with my head of sales. We can never, ever see eye to eye on anything. I keep explaining what is on our roadmap. He doesn't listen. I don't. Like, we can't communicate. People can see this friction. Gabby, everybody says, you know, the communication is all on me, but I think it's him, you know, he just doesn't listen or it's not easy to work with. I don't know how to navigate this.

B (33:46)

I can see that you are very frustrated by this. Why does it irritate you?

A (33:51)

Well, because there's no way for us to accomplish our goals if we cannot see eye to eye. If we can't communicate, team is suffering and we can't get anything done.

B (34:00)

That was just beautiful what you just said. That we can't accomplish our goals, shared goals, if we don't see eye to eye. So what are those goals that you both have together?

A (34:14)

I mean, we gotta grow revenue and we gotta, you know, increase our win loss ratio as a company, and I gotta increase adoption of this product by 20% this year.

B (34:24)

Did you guys talk about these goals when you were talking?

A (34:27)

We did, but, I mean, but I don't know if we did, because I thought I did. I thought you were clear. But you know, I feel we keep breaking down in communication every single time that we have a meeting.

B (34:39)

Have you, have you tried asking him like, hey, like, what would work here for you?

A (34:45)

I've never thought about that. I mean, we only ever meet when we have the sales product alignment meetings or when we, you know, have to work on something together. But that's a good note.

B (34:57)

So you're also telling me that you don't know him very well as a person?

A (35:01)

Well, I mean, I, I, I've, we've, we've been working together for almost two years now. I don't, why should I want to know him?

B (35:07)

What are his kids names? What are his pets names? Where does he love to vacation people?

A (35:13)

Gabby, this is a work environment. We have goals to do. I mean, why do I have to be friendly with everybody?

B (35:19)

I don't think, I don't think you're being friendly with everybody. I think if you have ghosts to do and you're still people, He's a person, you're a person. How might you get to know him so that you can understand what resonates for him?

A (35:34)

Oh boy. I love this again. I love this again. This is fantastic. And I know I'm deeply role playing this because what I care about people recognizing in this episode is not even the answers being right or wrong, but really the essence of what coaching feels like. So I love that you started again. This is not something we practice. You started by seeing the person. So immediately you could say, I could see you are frustrated and that set the tone and then you kind of walk through that in some ways again, reserving judgment, kind of helping someone grow into their own clarity in some ways. You know, many people are not self aware of some of these challenges. So, you know, often if I'm coaching someone, some things either are rooted in an assessment, uncovering what these things are and then coming up with a coaching plan to get there. So, you know, I could see you guiding me into awareness that a lot of the work in addressing this is on me. Getting me out of the victim mindset to a place where I am taking ownership around like I can do better in getting to know this person. Understanding we have shared goal, being vulnerable in the. All right, maybe wrap up with giving me a, let's say I've come to that awareness. Give me a plan. I say, Gabby, you are right. I have work to do here. What should I go do? How should I practice if I want to get better?

B (37:04)

Especially with communication. I like to tell People a story about two games that are very different from each other. One is tennis, which a lot of people know. And you play to, like, really beat the opponent. I mean, the US Open just ended. You're just, like, crushing it. You're like, let me crush this. Let me. Whatever. You're playing to win. And winning means the other person loses, right? And then there is this different game in Brazil called fresco ball, which is where I'm from. And fresco ball, your entire goal is to rally with the person. You're hitting the ball so the other person can respond. So I always ask people, like, how do you hit? So that they can respond. And every single time, you're asking yourself this question, like, if my goal is for us to have this dialogue, for us to have this understanding, for us to have this conversation, how do I frame what I'm saying so that can be achieved?

A (38:02)

There is so much to unpack in that one, to kind of paint the picture for people. The goal is to keep the ball in the air. You're just passing the ball over and over. It's like, the more we rally, the more. The more fun we have, the better the game. The point is not to win. And you're kind of calling that. In many cases, we may be approaching conversations in our work environment like we have a goal to win. Like, we're playing tennis to kind of smash them and win them, rather than we're playing fresco ball to keep the ball in the air. Like, the healthy dynamic of our workplace environment to our communication in our workplace environment is that, you know, we're not reacting. We're responding. We're. We're teeing the ball to a place that they can hit it well. We're not trying to make it challenging for them. We're trying to make it easy to keep the rally. And that's the magic of the rel. Oh, my. That is a good one. I wish more people understood this game because it actually changes a lot of the mindset, right? It's the. Are you communicating to win, or are you communicating to keep the rally going, to improve the relationship? You see? But this is why we do these coaching sessions. And I'm going to say this to people because I've done this for so many years. You know, when I describe to people in the mindset of, like, playing chess and seeing the pieces on the board, it takes a while sometimes to unlock something in people. You have. You have to have this kind of patience of taking people along the journey, meeting them where they are, and then trying to Pull out something that unlocks their thinking. And I just liked your example because it kind of unlocked a different way for me to kind of frame it. And there's nothing that makes a coach not go back, like in the example we just used on communication, not go back to that head of sales and say, my goodness, we've been communicating like we've been playing tennis, rather than communicating like our job is to keep this healthy relationship between sales and product going. And what a phenomenal way to do this. Okay, Gabby, we could talk about this all day, but I want to make sure we feel good about a couple of things. And I love how you define coaching. I love why we've talked about why coaching is important to people. We've done a lot of practice in there. Now, are there nuances in coaching? Like, is it different coaching a leader versus coaching an individual contributor? And maybe what are some of those differences?

B (40:23)

Yes, I think that there. There are pretty big differences in coaching a leader than coaching an individual contributor. I think there's like a few different layers there. The, the first one is when you coach a leader to your point, their product is their people, so they become a multiplier. And everything that you're coaching them on then has a separate layer of how are their people getting this? What does that communication look like? How are they being with their people? So they are not only doing the work, they are teaching people how to do the work. So a lot of it is like you're coaching them to coach as well as meta as that sounds. That is a lot of what I do with leaders. It's enabling them to set this context and then also enable their people. While when you coach individual contributors or teams, you're coaching them on the skills to get that product really good. You're like, how do we delight customers? How do we get our business goals? How do we make both of them work? Because that's the hardest thing. How do we. How we find that healthy, tricky balance? So I think that there. That's one of the layers that is. Is different. Then comes the topic. So if you're coaching a product leader especially, you're talking a lot about vision, which we talked about a little bit. You're talking about that strategic context, the product strategy, the goals that they're setting for their teams. You're talking about their team a lot. You're talking about hiring, onboarding, managing, coaching. Those are a lot of the topics. Well, I think when you're talking to ICs, it's a lot about product discovery and product Execution. And those are really fun topics, too. They're just pretty different than the ones that you're dealing with. The leaders.

A (42:13)

Oh, I love that. All right, couple of last questions. How do you measure your success? How do you know you're doing a good job as a coach and maybe differentiate what makes a good coach versus a great coach in your mind in.

B (42:28)

Terms of measuring success? I think it starts with what we set up when we designed what success would look like with the client and them being able to achieve their goals. That is like, the quickest, easiest answer there. Because ultimately they are hiring you so that they can practice and they can do better when it's game time for them. I also think a more nuanced. Because it's never as simple as that. It's when people start being able to do things that they weren't able to do before, or they start telling you that they've changed in areas of their life that you were even like, wow. Like, I didn't even knew we went there, but it seems like there was, like, a butterfly effect. That, for me, is like, the one that gets me, honestly, like, the most emotional. I think I had actually one a husband of a client of mine contact me on LinkedIn, and he was like, I want to gift my wife you for a month. Like, how do I do that? And I was like, wow, that's epic. Like, I, like, had tears in my eyes, you know, I was like, dad, for me, as like, a measure of. I. I know this is impactful to her because she even talks about it with the people that are most important to her in her life. So I think that there's, like, the tangible and then there's the intangible.

A (43:50)

What a great mindset, you know, to kind of have about what a coach is. It's kind of when people even ask me today what my best products are in the world, I mean, I always say my kids. But besides that, in the product field, it's not the things I have built, but the people. And, you know, are their lives better personally and professionally because of the experience, interaction, and the time that they had with me? And a measure of that may be, you know, hey, Gabby was an intern when I started talking with her, and she's now head of product at a Fortune 10 company. Or, hey, I remember Gabby. She was a product manager, and now she's a founder of a company and a CEO of a company. When I truly think it in my career, kind of how I know, I always call it the grandfather effect, you know, in the sense of as a parent, you kind of measure your parenting not by what your kids take, but by what they take and they give their kids. That is the magic of it, you know, And I, I, I am now old in the profession that I'm starting to see some of those things where, you know, I go to a company and somebody says something and I'm like, huh, where did you learn that? And they say, oh, my manager used to say that to me. And I'm like, who is your manager? And you find out your manager is somebody that worked for you and you're just like, wow, that person found it meaningful enough to pass on those words or those that advice to somebody else. And you know, the graduation gift for anybody that has been coached for me is in what they are able to pass on to another person is to give good coaching to somebody else. Because in the mastery of our discipline, you have to see good work. You have to do good work in order to teach or give good work to others. And that is the beauty of what you're doing. I think you're starting to see that play out where people want you to coach or participate in doing that. Gabby, this was a phenomenal, phenomenal time. I could do this with you all day. I actually think we should do just most sessions of practicing for people to kind of get a sense. I hope people leave understanding what it feels like to be coached, feels like to be seen, feels like to be heard, feels like to be cared for and the dynamic of what happens when that happens in your environment every day. Thank you so much for the gift of your time and for being on Product Therapy.

B (46:16)

Thank you so much Christian. This was amazing. I could also do this all day.

A (46:19)

Want to learn more? Until next time, please, Please check out svpg.com Sign up for our newsletter that Marik Hagan puts out. Join us for one of our workshops near you and get access to all of the articles and content we put out. And thank you to everyone for joining us. Until next time, have a good day. A quick disclaimer While this podcast is named Product Therapy, it is not hosted by licensed therapists or mental health professionals. It is, and it is in no way a substitute for professional mental health services. We recognize the importance of mental well being and encourage anyone facing personal difficulties to seek support from qualified professionals. See www.findahelpline.com.