Podcast Summary: Product Therapy – "Coaching Product Career Advice"

Host: Christian Idiodi (A)
Guest: John Moore (B), SVPG Partner
Date: October 24, 2024

Brief Overview

In this episode of Product Therapy, Christian Idiodi and SVPG partner John Moore dive into the often-unspoken aspects of building a successful career in product management. They share candid personal stories, discuss the role of coaching, the importance of life and professional experience, and provide practical advice for both prospective and seasoned product professionals. Central themes include the importance of mentorship, emotional intelligence, culture, and value creation over process.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Non-Linear Paths into Product Management

• Neither guest began in product:
  • John Moore started wanting to be a journalist, worked at the BBC, and shifted into digital projects (product-like roles).
    • “It was of course a leap in terms of career change because what I'd moved into...was really a product role.” [02:37]
  • Christian aimed for medicine, detoured through sales, and entered product through an innovation competition.
    • “I was going to be a medical doctor...I actually got into product by winning like an innovation competition at a company.” [03:35]
• No one is born a product manager:
  • Formal education in product rarely exists; most learn by doing or by failing.
  • Two common roots to competency:
    • Learning from great product leaders or teams.
    • Massive failure: “I cost the company like $26 billion...I have seen my career as a little of both.” [04:46]

2. Coaching, Mentorship, and Self-Education

• The critical role of coaching:
  • Early career exposure to strong mentors (like Marty Cagan) creates a lasting impact.
    • “My first reaction...was, I'm not doing any of that. And that was okay. Now if I'm going to get real about my career...I need to learn.” [06:42]
  • Many PMs and leaders are uncertain what “good” looks like; self-education remains necessary, but reliable sources are vital.
• The historical importance of coaching:
  • Example from HP in the '60s: dual-track formal coaching for engineers and would-be product people.
  • “A return to that would be quite something, right? Oh boy.” [13:54]
• Mentorship is vital at every level:
  • John describes reaching out to Marty Cagan at a moment of doubt for support—tough love made the difference.
    • “If you don't believe in yourself, no one else is going to.” [25:38]
• Coaching vs. self-taught:
  • Christian: “Imagine going to like a self-taught dentist...There is some technical aspect to the product work that require a little more.” [14:29]

3. Education and the Value of Diverse Experience

• Diverse backgrounds enhance PM effectiveness:
  • Don't just follow one path; life experience matters.
    • “What I'm saying is the experience you have outside of product...is going to be the thing that really allows you to fly.” [10:24]
• On university programs:
  • Exist in the U.S., not much in the UK/Europe.
  • Not one program creates great PMs; real-world changes outpace academia.
    • “I've not found a singular program that puts out great product managers…I audited a class once...by retired tobacco company executives from the 60s...” [11:20]
• Culture over frameworks:
  • The best products come from intentional company cultures with psychological safety and collaboration.
    • “It comes from a culture...you get to fail. We don't like failure, of course, but we know that it's a part of our world.” [12:35]

4. Hiring & Human (“Soft”) Skills

• What makes a great entry-level PM:
  • Use real-world problems in interviews to assess approach and thinking, not just knowledge.
    • “Listening someone think is one of the world's most amazing things...it allows you to understand whether they know how to deal with problems...” [16:06]
  • Key traits:
    • Coachability, humility, ability to synthesize information, communication, bias to action.
  • “I was constantly on the lookout for individuals that could show a level of humility...it allows us to adopt some pretty fundamental principles.” [17:18]
• “Human skills” over “soft skills”:
  • Skills like emotional intelligence, collaboration, and perseverance are central to PM success.
    • “I've moved calling it soft skills to calling it human skills...emotional intelligence, collaborative problem solving, critical thinking...” [18:03]
• Relationship-building as a PM core competency:
  • The capacity to form strong relationships and empathy makes or breaks success.
    • “If I find someone that...can make good relationships with new people, that is going to be incredibly helpful in a product career.” [20:52]

5. Emotional Intelligence Breakdown

• The four domains of EQ in product:
  • Self-awareness, self-management, social awareness, and relationship management.
    • “That's part of the whole emotional intelligence quadrant...these are the things we do not learn in school and we should.” [21:58]
• Self-management in high-stress environments:
  • Must be able to deal with stress, frustration, and bias in decision-making.

6. Strategies for Career Growth and Leadership

• Planning deliberately:
  • “You’ve got to approach your career like you're building a product—you have to have a career vision.” [26:55]
  • Map out visions, strategies, and competencies for future roles.
  • “We don't want to promote people to lend a job. We promote people to do the job.” [27:57]
  • Practice higher-level competencies before seeking promotion.
• Don’t rush progression:
  • Deep experience at team level leads to better leadership later on.
    • “The more time you spend solving problems with great folks in great teams, the better you will be as a leader.” [28:57]
    • Quoting his father: “The worst teacher assumes they are the smartest person in the room...The best teacher knows they aren't.” [29:34]
• Patience and humility lead to richer leadership experience.

7. Staying Relevant: Creating Value

• Focus on outcomes, not process:
  • “Create value and create a lot of it. Right. There's kind of a debate...where your product teams have really not been focused on creating sufficient amounts of value.” [32:17]
  • Revenue and customer outcomes are the true measure; product is a commercial role.
    • “This job is about solving problems in a way that works for our business in a way that brings customer delight. Outcomes are really what it's about.” [34:26]
• Don’t over-focus on frameworks or techniques without business impact.
  • “If you as a product person cannot tie your work into a dent or impact...you're probably not in the right role.” [34:51]

8. The Importance of Practice

• Practice trumps theory:
  • John's surfing analogy: “How much are you surfing? And I was like, oh, an hour a week....you can't learn to surf unless you surf.” [35:53]
  • Christian: “There's no substitute for practice. There's no substitute for doing...If people ask me they want to be a product manager, I say go be a product manager.” [36:11]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Christian:
  • “I have not met in today's world many product people that have an educational background in the product discipline...that actually has made them a good product person.” [05:12]
  • “Emotional intelligence for me has probably the hardest to evaluate in its own right, but probably the most critical because...your work, your decisions impact people.” [19:33]
  • “If you don’t plan for anything, then anything will happen. And that’s okay. That is actually part of your plan.” [27:07]
• John:
  • “Listening someone think is one of the world's most amazing things in terms of truly helping you understand, because it allows you to understand...how they approach the problem is critical.” [16:06]
  • “If you can't create strong relationships with others, you are going to struggle.” [20:49]
  • “Sometimes you can’t get that from someone that’s in your company, of course. And so that role of your mentorship was fundamental.” [25:52]
  • “You can’t learn to surf unless you surf.” [35:53]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–03:19: Personal journeys into product; career demystification.
• 05:38–07:58: The value and challenge of self-education and the need for coaching.
• 09:03–11:02: Advice for those starting out; the importance of diverse backgrounds.
• 12:16–14:29: Product culture vs. process and importance of coaching.
• 15:51–17:52: Hiring approaches and the human skills that matter.
• 21:58–23:32: Emotional intelligence and its domains in product work.
• 23:32–26:42: Mentoring, leadership transitions, and strategic career planning.
• 28:57–30:28: Don’t rush to leadership; deep experience at team levels.
• 32:17–34:26: Staying relevant by focusing on value creation and outcomes.
• 35:53–36:44: The necessity of practicing the craft.

Takeaways for Listeners

• Product careers are rarely direct—embrace diverse backgrounds and experiences.
• Seek mentors and coaches; prioritize learning from those who exemplify good product work.
• Focus on developing “human” skills—emotional intelligence, collaboration, resilience.
• Be deliberate: Build a career vision, develop strategic skills, and don't rush progression.
• Above all, focus relentlessly on value creation for the customer and business.
• Theory and knowledge matter—but practice, real-world experience, and continuous learning make the product manager.