A (3:08)

It is one of the saddest things I see in management and leadership. I think people forget that leaders were. Most leaders at least were once individual contributors or they were once people maybe doing the job. And the second they become a leader, it's almost like there's this unspoken rule that we don't know where it comes from. But apparently once you're a leader or a manager, you can no longer say things like, I don't know, you know, I'm not sure I need help, I made a mistake, I was wrong, I'm sorry. All of these things get thrown away. And you are kind of calling out this idea that most leaders may not even have the answer. Now, many people might confuse this idea of coaching up to managing up. And I want to make sure we are clear about the intent of coaching up and the absence of the politics or the influence or you're not doing this for a promotion or to look good. Do you have any thoughts on, like how you differentiate your managing up versus your coaching up?

B (4:04)

Coaching up is definitely not associated with any kind of career progression or anything like that. You're not trying to influence necessarily a particular action from the person. But what you are trying to do with coaching up is inform and expose information to that individual that might be helpful so that their behavior could potentially change. Right. It's also a matter of coaching up to help them understand what they might not necessarily see. That has nothing to do with career progression, has nothing to do with influencing. It has nothing to do with making yourself be seen in a better light. It's actually about helping someone get exposed to information that they might not be open to.

A (4:47)

I like that we have this Bill Campbell quote we talk about now, which is you can no longer be a good manager without being a good coach. It's not a specialty in that way. And one of the things we want from our managers is to coach us. And by coaching this means getting us better at our job. So maybe my obvious question here. I think many people will argue that they are actually not getting coaching from their manager. So maybe let's start there. What do you do if you're not getting coaching or feedback from your manager?

B (5:16)

Well, I mean, first and foremost, and sounds very obvious, but you need to ask for it if you feel like you're not getting it. You just need to be really direct and ask for it. And I think that there's that myth in coaching that, you know, if I'm asking for help that might be viewed as I'm not qualified for the job or I'm not able to perform the job without that kind of help. And I just don't know anyone who's in a position who knows absolutely everything that they need to perform the job. The same holds true for the leaders. In fact, I recently just did an anecdote for you. I recently was working with a team, and the leader of this particular organization was new to leading this part of the organization. They had been at the company for a long time, and they asked me if I wanted them to say a few words to the organization before we went into the workshop. And I said, yeah, I think it would be great. And it was abundantly apparent that the leader really had no idea what the function of the organization was all about. But, you know, they stood up, they said their words of wisdom at the beginning of the session, and I thought to myself, I'm like, this is going to be someone who's going to need a lot of coaching. They're going to need a lot of coaching from the people who have been in the organization for some time, who are tenured, who understand all of the context. And the biggest question and concern I had, Christian, was, is this person going to be open to being coached? Are they going to be open to being coached by the people that report to them? And it's an open question. We'll see how that plays out. But I don't know that everyone's actually open to that, which is another concern that we should talk about.

A (6:49)

We should definitely get into that, you know, and I love your first point is actually, first of all, ask for it. If you're not getting coaching from your manager, I always say, well, you need to be curious before you get frustrated because you may not understand why you're not getting coaching. I have seen people frustrated with their manager for so long, and when they ask their manager, manager, like, you're a rockstar, I didn't think you needed help. And Sometimes I have to coach a manager because people always say, you told us to hire rock stars and a players and great people. Why do they need coaching? And I'm always like, so why does Usain Bolt need a coach? They say, what do you mean? I'm like, he's the fastest man on the planet. There's nobody faster than him, but he still has a coach. And I always have to explain to people that doing the job is actually different than getting better at the job. You need somebody outside of you to see where you can improve. Whether it's improving your stance, your running, your breathing. All of those things are hard for you to do because you don't see beyond your view when you're on the field of play. So I often have to coach a man. Like, coaching is not something preserved just for the people that are not good. I want to get people better.

B (7:55)

Yeah, I think it's the opposite, actually. I think the people who are the most receptive to being coached are the ones who are the rock stars. They are the ones who are constantly refining their craft. They constantly want to get better. And the same holds true for leaders. Right. When you have a rock star leader and they are open and receptive to feedback and they want to constantly learn more about how to be a better leader, that's really where the spirit of coaching up. You know, assume that your leader actually wants to get better at their position as well. And, yeah, I think it's the rock stars that actually want the coaching.

A (8:28)

The second point you probably called out, and it's important to emphasize, is that most managers don't give good coaching because they haven't experienced good coaching themselves. And I see this pattern over and over again with people not being able to give that experience. And so I always say, you know, I love your point. Ask for the feedback explicitly or ask to be coached. But you probably need to model out coachability or coaching. You can actually bring to your leader the framework you want to be coached with and say, look, you know, you are the closest person to me. You see things I will not see. You probably have more perspective. Where do you think I can get better? And if you were to come up with a plan for it, what do you think that could look like? Many people kind of say, I can do that with my manager. They should be doing that on their own. But just imagine one, you're showing an openness to reflection and to getting feedback, and then you're modeling out a framework that you like to actually get that from your leader. And I always Tell people, you know, it's not kissing ass. Give your good celebrate. Like when your leader does it. Be like, that was absolutely awesome. Even if it wasn't, because what they are doing is they are taking a stab at trying to give you what you want. Say, wow, I got tremendous value from your feedback. I really felt it was clearer to me how I could get better. I felt encouraged by it because you are trying to plant the seeds that this is positive for your career and healthy for them to do so. I'm kind of calling this out because this is a very common question I get, what do I do when my manager sucks? You know, do I go outside? I say, and I love your point. Did you ask your manager for coaching? If your manager is not giving that, did you model out what you love to receive from them? And it's also fair. You know, I tell people, sure, not all managers are great coaches, but at the end of the day, you are still responsible for getting better at your craft. It is their job. They actually don't know in some cases that that is their job. Okay, let's play on specific types of managers because we love that Netflix mantra of lead with context, not with control. And we've kind of used this as an anchor in empower teams to define what good leadership is. It's this product sense plus coaching. But you see two extremes of managemental leadership. The micromanager on one end and then the professional manager. The delegation, hands free, I'm not going to touch you type of manager. These are real management types. But I want to play on a couple of management profiles here. You know, those kind of managers that always feel like they're right, they never take feedback from anybody. They always have all the answers. They are the know it all type of manager. You cannot come to them with an opinion or an idea if it's not theirs. It doesn't see the light of rube. Okay, let's. Let's play on that one. The always right manager. How would you coach someone who is convinced that they have all the answers?

B (11:13)

This is a tough one, Christian, because in some ways this particular manager is almost, I don't want to say uncoachable, but it's definitely a challenge from a coaching perspective. Just because as a person, if that individual believes that they're always right, that's usually based on some level of, I would think, insecurity. Right. Because they were probably in a situation where they were measured on being knowledgeable about absolutely everything. So being able to coach this person and expose new ideas and Insights to that person is going to be absolutely critical. And so one way that I used to always do it with a manager who believed that they were always right is I would always, and it's almost like a jujitsu move, I would always go and ask them for help. So if they were absolutely convinced that they were right about a situation, I would always ask them to help break it down for me because I needed more insight and understanding. And then you can get into a deeper conversation and it's in a safer way than challenging that particular individual. So if you can ask them for help, it tends to open them up and allow them to be more vulnerable because they believe that they're helping you. Where in turn you can ask questions that can help get to a much deeper level. Understanding which will expose where they might need some additional information that you might be able to lend them.

A (12:32)

What a magical technique. You know, I always say asking for help or asking to learn are the most vulnerable aspects in building that dynamic. But I think you're calling out something that I want to emphasize, which is ego. There's a lot of ego management in what you're describing, which is their ego and actually even your ego. Because asking for help is like, why it's their job. They are the manager. They should be the one self correcting. I think so many people struggle and it probably hurts the discipline a lot with this goal of trying to either prove somebody wrong or prove that they are right. In any company I work with, I always tell people there's no price for being right in product work. There's just zero price. I've not found one that rewards you just for being right. That's not what the discipline is around. The humility of, like, there are things we don't know. Our job is to tackle them. You are calling out, I need to shift the conversation to where we can share learning. And maybe the idea of the ego aspect, if you have someone that is always right, you kind of went to the root source of that. It was what was expected of me. It may be riddled by an insecurity. It may be driven by imposter syndrome. That fear of like, if I I'm not right in this setting or in this context, I will be looked down or judged as a manager or that's what's expected of me. Managing up. And you kind of said, hey, I like that framing. How can I help? I think more curiosity led questioning is really the tactic to do. Yeah. Which is like, how would you measure success with this? What outcome are you Trying to drive, you know, how can I help you be most successful? I want to make sure we do a good job on it. You know, you go beyond the right answer to the understanding of their thought process and the mechanics behind it, because there is probably something right in what they are saying.

B (14:18)

I think a lot of it, though, is very similar to the work that we do in product discovery. And if you think about product management and why I decided to have my entire career be focused around mostly product management is it takes a level of curiosity and openness. If you assume that you're right or you know the answer or that your manager knows the answer before you even get started, the likelihood of being wrong is really, really high. With product, we know that over 90% of ideas are going to fail.

A (14:48)

Right.

B (14:48)

We just know that that's part of product. A lot of times in coaching up, you know, you have to ask a ton of questions, just like you have to do in discovery. So I think questioning, asking for help, trying to understand the deeper understanding just opens the door for more knowledge around that. So I think it's just super helpful.

A (15:07)

I love that mindset, the discovery mindset around it with your manager, it kind of helps you avoid defensiveness instead of challenging like authority. That's. That's a great way to frame it, you know, And I often have to coach people all the time. I'm like, confidence does not equal clarity. Managers may be operating from fear, not certainty.

B (15:26)

Very similar to stakeholders. Right? So you and I have spoken in the past about partnering with stakeholders, working with stakeholders. I think it's very, very similar because quite frankly, your manager a lot of times is a stakeholder. And so getting what you need out of that stakeholder, it's just a different context, but the same techniques I think apply.

A (15:45)

And to your point of stakeholders, I kind of. I'm imagining in my head, many people don't see what rooms or battles the managers are coming from before they come to them. The manager may just have been coming from a stakeholder meeting where they were trying to defend the right decision that they just made, and then they haven't pulled off that hat to come into a meeting with you where they don't need to be defending that decision, but helping you gain context and clarity. And so the idea, you know, I think the summary in my sense is you want to influence the decision, not the ego.

B (16:16)

Yeah, I'm glad you brought up ego. Just real quick on that. Anyone who has that insecurity or that imposter syndrome, I think they fall in that category. Of the difficult to coach because they don't know what their role is yet. Right. And I think especially when you have a manager who's new to the organization, like the scenario I just talked about, that's really intimidating. When you're going in and you're now all of a sudden being charged to lead an organization where everyone else has the tenure and you do not. That's scary. That's intimidating. And I think old school thinking is you were hired into the role because you have this unique expertise. I think new school thinking is you can unpack a lot of information very quickly, make decisions, but to do that, you have to have the willingness and openness to being coached by the people who are there.

A (17:05)

We've kind of talked about this always, right. Know it all manager. On another extreme end, we have these managers that are disengaged or reluctant to any type of feedback or coaching. What do you do about the manager that is checked out or not engaged?

B (17:21)

How.

A (17:21)

How would you respond to that?

B (17:22)

Yeah, I mean, even in the work that we do around product leadership coaching, this is a really important one to tackle. And as an external coach, it's a little bit easier, quite frankly. Again, recently had a situation where the leaders and the teams came together and we were together for a workshop for a few days, and the leaders stood up in the beginning of the workshop and talked about how important this was going to be for the organization and the transformation that they were going through, which is great. We always love it when leaders are engaged like that. And then the leader was seated in the front row and they decided to leave. They left the workshop and then they would come back in. And then they would leave again. They'd come back in, they'd leave again. And to me, that's an example of that checked out leader that you're talking about, right? Like this disengagement, you know, not paying attention to the task at hand. The problem is most of the time giving them the benefit of the doubt. I don't think leaders realize that everyone watches a leader, right? Everyone watches a leader and mirrors and mimics their behavior. And so as a leader, you need to be mindful of the fact that your engagement absolutely matters and that people are watching that engagement. And the detriment that you can have in the organization, I think is really important. So my first session with this particular leader, to my point, was on this topic. And when I was working with this leader, it was kind of an epiphany. And he was like, I didn't even realize that that Action actually had the impact because now everyone was questioning and I got feedback after the session, everyone was questioning. I thought this was the number one priority and this was important for us to focus on. Yet our leader opted out. And again, I think it's this, that level of disengagement. People are watching. And so coaching that leader on, you gotta walk the walk and talk the talk, so to speak, and be present for the people in the organization. They're dependent on you.

A (19:15)

How do I say that to my leader, though? Like, you could say that, Leah, you are outside, you are the expert, you know, but I'm inside the company. I saw the leader checking out. How do we say this to that leader?

B (19:27)

If I were working for that leader, what I would have said is, hey, what was going on on that such and such a day? I noticed that you had to leave the room. Was there a fire do? Was there something going on where you pulled into another meeting? And I listened to the response for the leader because you're right, giving the benefit of the doubt, it might be that they were pulled into a higher priority thing that gives the leader an opportunity to be like, yeah, actually, you know, the executive committee or there was an outage or what, whatever it was. And then if the leader says no, I just had some things I had to go take care of. And I would use that as an opportunity to say, oh, but when you kicked off, you said this was the most important priority. So I'm confused by that.

A (20:06)

Yeah, start with positive intent, but acknowledge the impact. When I'm coaching individuals around your managers, I say, you've got to name the pattern you're seeing to that leader. You know, you gotta say, hey, I've noticed you were not able to stay present with us during this session. I've noticed we didn't have time to review the feedback. I have noticed that you just kind of call out that pattern because many people don't have that awareness, which again, is a different conversation on emotional intelligence. And then you probably need to probably offer a structured way for them to engage. You know, something like, would it help if I went to that meeting for you so that you could model that behavior of being present. Would it help if I sent a summary like I'm seeing in the way you're describing these things. Some things that people take for granted in their relationship with their manager, you know, this idea of positive intent, helping them see things they may not see. Taking charge of your own thing, but you probably need to focus on mutual goals. Like, hey, you know, if you were Here, present with us, it would have reinforced that this was the most important thing and that you were bought in. And it will help me to work better in getting those outcomes you want.

B (21:14)

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. And you and I have both been in positions where we've given that feedback. And when the leader is receptive to that, it's game changing. And so my hope is that we get more people to be receptive to that.

A (21:27)

Okay, just plain on this, I've said this to the manager. We have the next session, it happens again. And what happens if nothing changes? What do we do?

B (21:34)

I think there's a reason why we have situations where we do skip levels. I think there's a reason why if the team is not able to be successful because of a disengaged leader, you have to raise it to the people who are going to care about that. There's just not enough time in most organizations. So the worst case scenario is when everyone knows it, no one talks about it, and nothing gets done. That just seems like the worst possible scenario. So we want to avoid the worst possible scenario. So it's not going to get fixed if you don't call it out.

A (22:05)

But Leah, I mean, is that not bad? Do I look like I'm reporting my manager now to their manager? That could backfire on me if they go and say, Leah told me that you checked out on meetings.

B (22:17)

Yeah, I mean, possibly. But you know what could be a good outcome from that? Either that manager's like, okay, maybe I need to be present, or maybe we get a manager in there that actually is supporting and helping the team succeed.

A (22:31)

I think, you know, there's some ways of protecting your own growth because you're kind of saying, we need a good outcome and we need leaders that lean in. You're escalating up. And I think if you do it in the same way. We've been talking about assuming positive intent, asking for help, asking to let that. Like, I'm going to go through my manager under the bus because I found something bad. You're kind of saying, look, I'm realizing, and it should not be new because hopefully you've said this to your manager before. I'm kind of saying, you know, a disengaged manager is not an excuse for you to stagnate or not grow in a company. It's probably like a reason for you to take ownership of your own development, a reason for you to step up.

B (23:09)

Totally agree with that. I mean, I was in this situation myself and Marty actually coached me directly on this particular scenario. And he was really clear with me. He's like, I'm surprised that you have waited so long, you know, and you're right. You have to take control.

A (23:24)

All right, give me tools. Maybe there are tools you have for coaching up techniques. You've seen structured things that may have helped you coach up in the past or I did things, you know, in any of these situations, you know, people like something that helps them. I. I have my favorite tool of a user manual, but I don't know if you have other tools that you've seen that have helped.

B (23:44)

Yeah, I mean, again, I am not a big fan of hacks or specific tools or silver bullets or anything like that. I think that the most important tool is just your honesty and your integrity and your ability to actually communicate clearly, which I know. I wish there was a silver bullet for me, but that's my best tool. But I want to hear yours.

A (24:06)

That's a great tool. We probably have to do a whole episode on, like, honesty and integrity and clarity in the workplace, because, you know, people are terrified about that environment, what candor is. And then people take it to the extreme, and maybe there's some healthy middle ground on it. I have found user manuals to be very effective. And by user manual, I kind of want to explain what I mean, you know, and when I try to explain to people, I say, look, every electronic in your house has a user manual. Most of us don't look at the user manual, but when something breaks, if somehow your TV doesn't turn up, what happens? You go to that user manual and you're like, digging in to find if there's some way to fix it. And I try to explain to people. Many people might have many direct reports, but most people in a corporate environment have one boss. For some people, it's like that one boss for like 10 years, 20 years. Like, you blow your mind. And I'm like, so you haven't taken the time to deliberately, intentionally understand that one person that is not going to change? And I'm like, to be clear, you know, when I think about a user manual, I'm talking about a personal playbook that outlines how that person works, how they make decisions, how they like to communicate, how they receive feedback. I am one of those very weird person because, I mean, I've had like a. A boss in like, two different companies, and he can probably post, like, oh, he understands me. I'm like, look, I wrote a playbook. You haven't changed in, like 50 years. You know, the idea of being like, if you take the time, I go to you. People don't understand how I do a user manual. It's as simple as hey Leah, like hey, let's talk about, you know, thanks for taking the time but I just want to get to know you better in terms of your goals, what is important to you in some ways. And I'm writing these things down. I mean today you could probably even have recorded with AI. You're probably a great idea. I should probably design a user manual with AI, but I want to know everything about Leah, Leah's family, Leah's spouse. I want to know what incentives you have. I want to know how you're bonus. I want to know. It sounds very weird, but these are the things that drive your decision making, affect your relationships, your dynamics. I want to know your strengths, your weakness, your development plans, your OKRs. People often think it's such a weird conversation and I say you only do it once. It feels weird once. But the application of that knowledge in your day to day or when something breaks is the difference between longevity and success in a company or a very frustrating environment. People downplay it. I say think about it. If the number one reason you are going to leave this company statistically is this person, like it's already predicted, like your future in this company is going to be determined by your relationship with this person, why not take time to understand this individual? Now I'm extremely my user manuals you can probably Google. There are many different user guides in some ways but I'm the kind of person that I like to understand every area or boundary. I want to understand like my manager gets their goals. I go in and I want to understand what goals they were given by their manager. Because the best compliment I can give my manager is me helping them hit their goals or making them look good. Many of us don't know that. We don't even know how our managers get incented, what they get rewarded for, where their bonus plans are. We don't know what drives them crazy, what stakeholder battles they find, what meetings they find. I don't need the credit. I need a healthy environment for me to go deliver outcomes. You know the politics of it is like the people try to either outshine their manager, try to take credit or they get upset. Oh, the manager went up and he took credit for all of our work, all of those things. And I'm like, have you taken the time to kind of understand they might be fighting for their job? There's politics to it. So user manuals. For me, there are many Guides, you just need a way to kind of have a working agreement, expectations or communications. You want to know the style. You've seen those leaders that are like, I sent you 20 emails about this. They're like, I didn't guide. They don't read the emails unless you say something to them. In a one on one, it will never stick. I would have a leader once, like, unless you took him for lunch and had that conversation, any meeting, he just was there shaking his head, nothing stuck. Once you know that if you have something important, you're like, it's a $10 lunch away from getting buy in. It's cheaper than fighting all of these things. So I know it sounds crazy, but like, you need a one on one guide. You need a communication, a feedback framework. For the most part. You might not even need this throughout your journey. But when things break, things become challenging, you go back to that guide.

B (28:36)

I love the idea of being intellectually curious about who your manager is, who your leader is, and understanding what motivates them. The only thing that I will say, and I love your analogy around user manuals, but one thing I will say is what happens if you have a user manual for someone that you worked with at version one and now they're version five? Because that's another thing. Because I've been in a situation where I knew version one and then I worked for version five of that individual and I needed a completely new user manual, which is great.

A (29:11)

But you are also changing too.

B (29:13)

That's right.

A (29:13)

You are mad at your manager for not evolving their management style to respond to your changes.

B (29:19)

Yeah. And we actually even have a situation with us that, you know, I have, I worked for someone when I was version one and he was version one and you know, now 20 years later, we remember each other as version one. That's a very different world. Right.

A (29:35)

We probably do that with our kids. You know, like, you're not my baby anymore. It's like, mom, I'm a grown adult. You know, and it's kind of because you had that manual as a parent for like, oh, but you always like chicken, you know, And I think, you know what I'm calling out here. It feels like work, but for me, managing up means I am not think about the manager that has 10 people on a team or five, 10, and they have to try to know those people and manage them. Well, imagine for you, you probably have this one manager. What I try to do when I'm a manager is I create my own user manual. I proactively do it and Give it to all my direct repl.

B (30:08)

Oh, that's good. Yeah, like that.

A (30:10)

And I say, look, this is my preference in communication. I suck at responding to emails. Text me if you need me. I know it sounds weird and stuff like that, but like that way I know the importance of it. Do this for me in this way. Look, you know, my kids drive me crazy. Like I talk about all of these things because I want people to feel safe in understanding my dynamics and the uniqueness. I always say what kind of crazy I am. Like, I don't want you surprised or guessing. You know, I share my weakness. They are always like in my user manual. I suck at this. I am terrible at this. People like, why I'm like, because nobody hired me for my weakness. But you're going to see it. That's what they'll be talking about during the break room. Look, the manager sucks at this, so why not put it out there, Be like, I suck at this. But guess what? I hired you because you are great at this. Those little things change the dynamic. So I tell people it is great if your manager has one, but if you don't, offer to do it for them or write one for them and validate with them. Hey, you know, I took some time for my meeting. Is your preference really email versus one on ones in person? Do you really get feedback this way? Do you like current feedback? Just validate it.

B (31:17)

It goes back to that discovery. Right? Like actually invest the time to do the right level of discovery for your manager.

A (31:22)

Okay, all right. I know I've beat up leisure manuals. I like that. I like working agreements, one on ones. But maybe there's an obvious question as we are wrapping this up here. When should you not try to do this? When should you not coach up? You know, you kind of alluded to when somebody is in open, but kind of explain what that means.

B (31:38)

Yeah, I mean I, I think it's. You're always going to give it a shot and you're going to try the different techniques to try to connect with someone, to try understand them more, to understand their motivations. And a very wise person who you and I both know said to me, the most difficult thing to change in any organization is the culture. If the culture and the environment doesn't support the change that is required, then that's probably time to reassess whether or not you're going to get everything that you need in that organization. That would be when I really consider. But I would try. I mean, of course you're going to try. You're going to try everything that you can to make that connection. I mean, Christian, you're lucky. You are really great at connecting with people. And I think your curiosity about other individuals has probably helped you significantly throughout your career. I think a lot of people have that as well. But it's hard to connect with someone who doesn't want to connect. So when you have that situation, if that's what you need and you can't get it, then you should consider going to a place where you can.

A (32:40)

I love that. You know, I know you meet some managers that just reject feedback or any question. They micromanage, they undermine. They use fear instead of trust. They don't make changes over time.

B (32:51)

Absolutely.

A (32:52)

Yeah.

B (32:52)

They exist. They absolutely exist.

A (32:54)

You started the session today by talking about ask your manager to be coached. You know, challenge them for better. And, you know, if you've done all of these things, you said trying, I think there's a point where it's no longer about managing up, it's about managing risk.

B (33:07)

That's right. I'm a pragmatist at heart, so I think it's just a matter of do everything that you can to try. But maybe that user manual is not. You can't write a user manual for that particular person.

A (33:17)

All right, last question. What is one thing every individual contributor, every employee should start doing today to coach up better? If you were giving one last advice to somebody, you can be a better individual contributor employee with your manager. By what?

B (33:30)

Well, I mean, I think it's two things, actually. I think it's ask questions and then listen. Like, again, the same core skills around product management. It's ask questions and actually listen to what people say. I have a really good friend of mine who says if you listen, people will tell you exactly who they are. But you have to listen.

A (33:48)

That's deep right there. And it's almost a challenge in that question, like you're not actually listening. You know, sometimes managers are screaming their pain, their weakness. They are screaming out, but we are not listening. You know, I think if I wanted to leave people with one pointed thing here because you. You started by saying you, look, it's all about managers providing context, providing clarity. In that way, I will say, yes, your managers and leaders do shape the context, but I will probably challenge every individual contributor to shape the relationship. There is no promise to you when you join a company that you should have a great relationship with your manager. And I think many people harshly judge their work environment by their poor relationship with their manager when they were not intentional about trying to shape that relationship. If there's anything I want people to get out of this today is what the organization should promise you is clarity about where we are going, what we're trying to do, and then compensate you to support helping do that. But like shaping that relationship can be something that we all can start to take some account on. Leah, you know we can talk about any topic for hours. This was absolute fun. I always enjoy this with you. Thank you for the gift of your time, your knowledge and your expertise. Great to have you with us today.

B (35:02)

Always Christian.

A (35:03)

Want to learn more? Until next time, Please check out svpg.com Sign up for our newsletter that Mary Kagan puts out. Join us for one of our workshops near you and get access to all of the articles and content we put out. And thank you to everyone for joining us. Until next time, have a good day.

C (35:25)

A Quick Disclaimer While this podcast is named Product Therapy, it is not hosted by licensed therapists or mental health professionals and it is in no way a substitute for professional mental health services. We recognize the importance of mental well being and encourage anyone facing personal difficulties to seek support from qualified professionals. See www.findahelpline.com.