ProductLed Podcast – Episode Summary

Title: Disrupting a Red Ocean: Clarify.ai’s Strategy to Beat Salesforce and HubSpot
Date: January 6, 2026
Host: Wes Bush
Guests: Patrick (CEO, Clarify), Espen (Userflow)

Episode Overview

This episode explores how Clarify.ai, a newly emerging autonomous CRM, is taking on entrenched incumbents like Salesforce and HubSpot. Host Wes Bush, guest Patrick (Clarify’s CEO), and Espen (Userflow) discuss how to identify and execute on meaningful product-market opportunities in established (“red ocean”) markets. They unpack Clarify’s strategy, share hard lessons from years of customer discovery, and address both product and business model innovation aimed at disrupting legacy players.

Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. The Real Work Behind Building a Successful SaaS Product

• Patrick stresses the importance of customer discovery over code (00:00, 04:50):

  “Writing code these days is not the hard work. It's actually talking to customers, making sure you have good product intuition and product sense to build the right thing.” – Patrick (00:00)

• Clarify spent six months on discovery before building their MVP, ensuring they were solving a core customer need.
• The MVP was quickly built and led to early enterprise traction and successful fundraising, culminating in an acquisition by Amplitude.

2. Choosing the Right Problem in a Red Ocean Market

• Red ocean: Espen argues that entering a saturated market (with proven demand) is far easier than creating a new market.

  “Going into Red Ocean is actually everything I recommend any founder should do…In a Blue Ocean you have to educate the market. It's 10x if not 100x harder.” – Espen (06:41)

• Both founders deliberately targeted established categories (CRM, onboarding) but aimed for clear differentiation through UX, automation, and simplicity.
• Naming matters: Leveraging known terms like “CRM” for SEO and buyer recognition (07:34).

3. Standing Out with Execution, UX, and Business Model

• User Experience is the foundation: Both Espen and Patrick emphasize building “a product that people actually want” by living the pain themselves and making ease of use a differentiator.

  “You don't need to bring something super amazing to become a competitor and become a successful business. You just need to bring something that makes you unique and attracts the market.” – Espen (09:56)

• Business model disruption: Lower, fairer pricing, self-service free trials, and ease of onboarding were key to both Userflow’s and Clarify’s approach.

  “We're not just trying to build a better product that uses AI that's more intuitive and modern... The other thing that we think quite a lot about is just business level disruption, right? Like if you look at tools like Salesforce or HubSpot, like they get really expensive even early on for a startup.” – Patrick (11:37)

4. Moats and Counter-Positioning

• Undercutting incumbents on price and simplicity builds defensible moats (13:41).

• Incumbents are often unable to drop prices without hurting their core business—Clarify leverages this by focusing on value and automation.

  “I love counter positioning for that. Especially when...the incumbent can't change the pricing because it's going to erode all of their existing value.” – Patrick (14:58)

• Pricing caution: Don’t underprice to the point of signaling low quality.

  “We have a tendency [in Europe] to price ourselves way too low and that just makes your product look low quality. There's this balance...” – Espen (15:21)

5. Early-Stage Go-to-Market in a Crowded Category

• ICP (Ideal Customer Profile) definition is the starting point (18:17).[21:29]

  “Figuring out one, who do we love? Who do we want to solve problems for?... Like ICP definition is step number one.” – Patrick (18:17)

• Channels: Find out where your target customers “hang out”—online communities, Slack, WhatsApp, etc.

• Brand and customer discovery loop: Embed yourself in communities, provide value, and use this feedback to improve your offering.

• Sales vs. discovery: The lines between understanding customers and selling are very thin—giving value builds loyalty and insight.

6. Making Onboarding and ‘Aha’ Moments Easy

• Users rarely want to rip out existing CRMs, so removing setup friction is critical.
• Clarify offers one-click imports from tools like HubSpot to reduce migration pain (28:05).
• Human support: Early on, supplement with onboarding help until automation can take over.

  “…our product's only gonna get better every single day from here on out, right? So, like, right now is the actually hardest...point in time for a customer to actually adopt...If we can use humans to help alleviate some pain...the plan is to help then automate everything...” – Patrick (32:25)

7. Continuous Customer Connection and Feedback Loops

• Talk to customers constantly, especially early; passive and active outreach via Slack, direct messages, and word of mouth are vital (35:48).

  “I can passively look at who's signing up for our product and I reach out...and just like hey thanks so much for signing up. Let me know if you ever want to jump on a call.” – Patrick (35:48)

• Share customer insights and feedback internally so teams build context and empathy.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Customer Discovery Over Coding:

  “Writing code these days is not the hard work. It's actually talking to customers…go do the hard work upfront, validate what you’re building.” – Patrick (00:00, 04:50)

• On Red Oceans vs. Blue Oceans:

  “Going into Red Ocean is actually everything I recommend...Blue Ocean...you have to educate the market. It's 10x if not 100x harder...” – Espen (06:41)

• On Differentiation:

  “You just need to bring something that kind of makes you unique and attracts the market.” – Espen (09:56)

• On Pricing Moats:

  “The incumbent can't change the pricing because it's going to erode all of their existing value...” – Patrick (14:58)

• On Customer-First Product Building:

  “For me, like give more than you take...my goal at the end of a call...is actually make sure that they have more out this call than I do.” – Patrick (18:17)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00 – Patrick on why the real work is customer discovery, not code
• 01:36 – Clarify’s journey: from acquisition to attacking CRM with AI
• 04:50 – The scientific approach: Six months of interviews, three months to MVP
• 06:41 – Espen on why entering “red oceans” is smarter for founders
• 09:56 – The role of UX in building winning products
• 11:37 – Leveraging business model and pricing as a wedge
• 14:58 – Counter-positioning: why incumbents are stuck pricing high
• 18:17 – Early-stage go-to-market: Focus on your ideal customer and channels
• 23:12 – Channel performance: Product Hunt, LinkedIn, Google Ads, word of mouth
• 28:05 – Reducing complexity in migrations and onboarding
• 32:25 – Temporary high-touch support until automation matures
• 35:48 – Scaling customer connection and sharing insights internally

Practical Takeaways for Product-Led Founders

• Spend more time talking to customers than coding early on.
• Red Ocean markets aren’t a curse—if you can out-execute on UX and business model, you can disrupt.
• Build for users, not buyers: Unique UX, fair pricing, self-service.
• Define your ICP ruthlessly and find where they congregate online.
• Make onboarding as frictionless as possible; supplement with human help while product matures.
• Keep the feedback loop rolling—your product can only improve if you’re close to your customers.

Where to Find More

• Clarify AI: clarify.ai
• Patrick’s Substack: “Founder Therapy”
• LinkedIn: Both guests are active and share tactical PLG content

This episode offers a tactical blueprint for product founders eyeing a challenge in a crowded SaaS market: Start with discovery, differentiate on execution and UX, disrupt on business model, and above all, keep talking to your customers.