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Are We Forcing Prophecy to Happen? The Zionism Debate Explained | Mondo Gonzales
00:53:35
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- [00:06]
A
I'm just blown away at some of the things that are happening right now. And so when we planned this conversation a month ago, I don't even remember when the Epstein files were released, but I think that might have been part of why I wanted to have you on here, because that happened. And, you know, the Internet just seemed to go haywire with the fact that, you know, Israel is involved, Mossad is involved, all those things. And then we know that that's true, and that's not a surprise to me. I've known that for a long time looking at this stuff. But in saying that, what Lance and I were talking about at home is that when the Epstein files were released, it almost seemed like Satan's winning again, because instead of the. Everyone looking at the fact that this is Luciferianism in real time, they are missing the mark and they're blaming a group of people and a race of people and all of that, instead of looking at Luciferianism, Israel is not the tip of the spear. And I think that that's the big thing that I want to help get across to people, because that's what's being shoved out everywhere right now. So then you tie in this war that kicked off on 28 February, and there was a story that hit the news cycle, I think it was last week at some point, and somebody in the military had come out and basically told their soldiers. And I wrote down this quote from the article. Military leaders allegedly told troops that the Iran war was all a part of God's divine plan and specifically referenced numerous citations out of the Book of Revelation referring to Armageddon and the imminent return of Jesus Christ. So that was like, oh, wonderful. You know, this is good times, good times, good times going on in the Internet, right? So out of that Mondo. And I know you had so many things going on last week, but the Internet erupted in a firestorm of reels, YouTube videos, and all of these, you know, social media experts. Right on just what this really is. And somehow, some way dispensational theology and. Or. Or call it God's plan of the ages, whatever you want to term it, as we have now been roped into that, that we are somehow pushing prophecy and we are the ones creating it. And the wild one that got me was that Trump's cabinet is also a part of this. And I'm going. Do y' all not know they're Dominionists? Most of them believe in like. Like bringing the kingdom to Earth. That's what they're about. So out of Hearing the stuff about Epstein, out of hearing that we are the ones that pushing prophecy and we're self fulfilling it essentially to make our eschatology come true, I just was like holy cow, we have a lot to cover today. And so what I wanted to do is you had a teaching a while back that I saw a long while back. And then prophecy watchers, they reshared it like four months ago. And I think it was called Walking into the Antichrist Trap. And it's such a great video, it's linked down for people below. But I wrote down a lot of questions that I have for you that I want you to answer and stuff that I thought was so well worded in your teaching of that that we can pull out. And I wanted to kind of go through those things. And so I figured probably the best place to start is to define the term Zionism because I feel like that is, that is probably like a cuss word now. Like if you were Christian Zionist or as I like to call myself, I'm a Biblical Zionist, I'm not a political Zionist. There is a difference to me. But apparently no one should be any form or have anything to do with Zionism. So I feel like that would be the great place to start is maybe if you can give us the definitions, discuss the differences between biblical and political Zionism.
- [03:31]
B
Yeah, absolutely. I think that that's really is the key. That's what I find is as I mentioned in, in the presentation, just when somebody asks you again a question, you know, are you a Presbyterian, are you an Arminian Calvinist, whatever the word is, you know, my response is you never say yes or no to that ever. The first thing you say is, well, tell me what your definition is. Right? Because even if someone says oh you're a Christian, I know people who are family members that for them, you know, a Christian is Hitler. You know, and so you think, whoa, whoa, whoa. So in this sense what is the definition of Zionism? Well, there's, there is, you know, standard, I would say scholarly or academic definitions that go back historically originally. You know, Zionism really I would say officially began with Theodore Herzl and his book back in the late 1890s. And so here's a guy that's secular, I mean, he's not religious at all. And so for him he defines Zionism is a modern Jewish movement that aiming at resettlement in the land of Israel and the revival of an independent Jewish nation. So that is political Zionism. There's no mention of God there, there's no mention of the Bible. There's no mention of the promises. It's just simply, hey, we want a, a resettlement in the land of Israel specifically. Even though Herzl didn't really care, some of the early Zionists, they, they didn't really care where they were talking about Uganda and other places where they would have a resettlement of really the, the wandering Jewish people that are, were all over the world. Okay, so that's, that would be political. And of course, you know, the history of that goes all the way back. Okay, we won't do that. But in the sense of what about Christian Zionism? Well, Tommy Ice, in his book, he has a book which I recommend in order for people to understand the language and the terminology and the theology. He has a book called the Case for Zionism. And in the book his definition is this Christian Zionism is a religious belief among some gentiles of Christian faith. Not all. He knows that some gentiles of the Christian faith that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land and the restoration of physical ethnic Israel is in accordance with biblical prophecy. Okay, I'll stop there for a minute. 1948, they come back into the land. Okay, so it's this idea that biblical, that the, that Bible prophecy predicted that the Jews would be brought back by God himself. Okay. Ezekiel 36, 37, even into 38, amongst many others. Okay. Then he says, quote, furthermore, it is a motivated biblically based religious conviction that the Jewish people are still God's chosen people and are entitled to possess the land of Israel for all time. So if that's the definition, okay, then yes, I am a Christian Zionist. I believe that Israel came back in the land in 1948 based on prophecies. That doesn't mean that, that they're saved. It doesn't mean anything about that. They're so that they're, they're back in the line based on b. Biblical prophecy. And then the second thing is that they're still God's chosen people. And I think Romans 9 is crystal clear. They are still God's chosen people. Doesn't mean they're saved again, it means that God, in fact, we know that they're very far from saved. But God has a purpose and what he's doing. And God himself is a Zionist. You just read the Psalms, it talks about Mount Zion. God himself will dwell forever in Zion. So this isn't just spiritual mumbo jumbo. God is going to be setting up his kingdom. Psalm 2. Read it. In Jerusalem, in Zion. So that's what's coming, but we're not there yet. And the, and the Jewish people in the land of Israel are not there yet either. That's, that's, that would be the very nugget form.
- [07:30]
A
No. And that's so well worded. And this is also why I linked JB's. He did a recent My thoughts on this on his podcast. But he gave, he only gave like five differences between biblical Zionism and political Zionism. And it was so good. But he mentioned that like Biblical Zionism is a doctrine, it's future, it's about prophecy. It's perfect because it, it literally comes from the word of God, folks. Oh, I know it's a shock to people, but it's in there and it's often misunderstood. And then, you know, he went through these five items and then he said, you know that political Zionism is a movement, it's present meaning it's about the current time, it's about justice. And oftentimes when it's in the present, it's about peace treaties, land for deals, land, you know, all of that. He mentioned that it's flawed. Like the leaders are not Bible believing, Jesus following people. And anyone who thinks that, you know, everyone or anyone in the Israel, in the government in Israel is, is a Bible believing Christian. If you think that you'. You're grossly mistaken. It's not like that. There, there might be some of them, I don't know. But he was just making these points. And then it's then also that political Zionism is misused. And so I always say that like two things can be true at the same time. And this is where I can hold space for both things. Right. What has really struck me about this conversation lately is just the absolute, just I would say, atrocities of things that are happening. I wanted to show you just a couple of things that I grabbed this week. And I'm not even going to share all the things that people sent me because of the fact that I think that I don't even want to say that I would even be comfortable sharing some of the things that are on the Internet right now. So this is something that somebody sent me. So this is a Twitter user, an X user, and she retweeted this and it says the devil's greatest trick was convincing people he isn't real. But he is real. So it's like everything is being turned to this and I'm going to Lord, people are missing it. They're missing it so very much. And so I see a lot of the other things that I Do see with this Mondo, is that there is this big discussion around the synagogue of Satan. And I was wondering, I thought this is a question I would love to have you answer. Who is the synagogue of Satan? Can you define that for people?
- [09:54]
B
Absolutely. This is. I get this all the time. And I'll just. People if. Well, let me just step back for one second in that we see, as you saw in the, in the presentation, people saying that the Jews living in the land of Israel are not the real Jews. Hebrew is different than Israel. Who's different than Jew? And so if people go to prophecywatchers.com jews. Okay, made it real easy. Prophecywatchers.com jews I have several articles there discussing the Khazarian theory, discussing what's who is true Israel. Even I give a handful of genetic studies that show clearly 100% that the people that you have living in the land of Israel today are connected with historical genetic Jews. Okay, so it's. I have several of them there that people can look these up. So this isn't. If people want to be knowledgeable about it, then I provide the information. But if people just want to spread rumor, which is often what the case is on social media. So anyways, also at that site I have. Someone had asked me about that. They said, I keep hearing the Jews living today are not the real Jews. So because in. In Revelation 2.9 and Revelation 3:9, it makes comment. Jesus said in Revelation 2.9, I know your tribulation and your poverty, but you are rich. And the slander of those who say that they are Jews and are not, but they are the synagogue of Satan. And then in chapter three, verse nine, to the church of Philadelphia, he says something similar. I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but they lie. Behold, I will make them come down and worship before your feet. Okay, so what people are doing then is they're saying, cc, what you see today in the land of Israel is that this is the synagogue of Satan. Well, first of all, Keep things in context. So this was written to the Church of Smyrna and the Church of Philadelphia in the first century in a very specific geographical context and a historical context. And so what Jesus is doing there is he's making a comment. And Jesus has great Old Testament theology background. So In Deuteronomy chapter 10 and Deuteronomy 30, Jeremiah 4, there's these other passages where God is the one who introduces the idea of circumcision of the heart. Okay, so in the Bible we have Circumcision of the flesh, which is external, and circumcision of the heart. And what Moses and Jeremiah are teaching to the people of Israel is, look, it's not simply just about external circumcision. That's not what brings you to a state of salvation. Because just because a Jew was born in the Old Testament as an ethnic descendant of Abraham or Jacob or whatever, doesn't automatically mean they're saved. We're all born unbelievers, whether you're Jew or Gentile. And so in the same way, in the context the Bible was very clear about trying to teach God was very clear about trying to teach them. Your external circumcision, that's a great start. But unless you have circumcision of the heart, you have you as a Jewish person. What does the word Jew mean? It means praise you. You are not going to get praise from God Almighty unless you have list in this case for a male, external and then also internal. So that's the, that's the imagery that Jesus is using here. Because in Romans chapter two, Paul says the same thing in context. He's talking to Jewish people. He says very clearly about them having the law. And he says, for no one who is a Jewish, who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical, but a Jew is one who is inwardly. And circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit. His praise is not from man, but from God. So here again, people say, oh, to be. Then if I'm circumcised of the heart, I'm Jewish. It's like, that's not the context he's talking about that external circumcision for a Jewish person. So anybody that is considered external, only Paul says, you're not a true Jew. A true Jew is one who is physically Jewish, but externally circumcised, but also of the heart. So Jesus is using the language which certainly could apply anywhere in the world, not just in Israel, in any. Any person who is Jewish, physically, ethnically, who is not circumcised of the heart is not following after God and not following after the Messiah. And this is why you see this in John 8. 44, Jesus is talking to Jewish Pharisees. I mean, of the. Of the people. And he says, you're of your father, the devil. First John 3 says the same thing. So in that sense, the synagogue of Satan is not only applicable to modern Israel. No, it can be, but it's applicable to any Jewish person anywhere that is not saved through Jesus, their Messiah. But I think what happens. That's not what's being done here, though. What they're doing is they're simply throwing a label on the modern Israel as synagogue of Satan without understanding the context. It's in the first century. Two specific Jews living where in the. In Turkey. This is all in Turkey. Philadelphia, Smyrna. I've been there many times. So I think there's a, there's a zeal here, an unfortunate zeal to be quick to throw around these labels, that these are all satanic people. Well, if you're living in England and you, you are a English person and you are not following Jesus, you are of your father, the devil. Okay, so, so that's what First John 3 is saying.
- [15:28]
A
Yes, yes, the devil.
- [15:30]
B
And they're not, not just Jews. So. But in this instance, Jesus was speaking specifically about the Jewish persecution which was taking place of gentile Christians and that. And Jesus was pretty harsh about it, for sure. Yes. So again, let's keep it balanced. It's not just about Jewish. That to me, that's anti Semitism. When you're throwing a label just on a whole group of people and you're not recognizing the theological context that it's simple. It's as applicable to Gentiles as well, who are children of the devil. So.
- [16:00]
A
No, well said, well said. And I think that that's so important because I'm like, well, it can have a dual meaning. It can like. But it, it, it's referring to exactly what you just said. And I think that that's the context that people are missing. So again, you find that extremely. And I see that label being used of everybody, and I'm like, okay, it's not quite what it means. So it's hard because I can see the tension of where people are at, but I can see the misstep too. And one thing you mentioned earlier, you know, God is a Zionist and Jesus is a Zionist too. And I wanted to make sure that people go back and pull these scriptures. But Zachariah 8, 2, 5. And then I have to tell you this. I just finished up the book of Joel again, and I have this open specifically to this. But Joel 3, 17, it says this, Mondo, it says, then you will know that I, the Lord your God, live in Zion, my holy mountain. And then it goes down into verse 20 and it says, but Judah will be filled with people forever, and Jerusalem will endure through all generations. I will pardon my people's crimes, which I have not yet pardoned. And I, the Lord will make my home in Jerusalem with my people. Now that's future, isn't it?
- [17:06]
B
Yeah. Again, when you have this, this language, that. Again, Jerusalem. Look, look, we all understand this, and this is what I think. This is what I would say frustrates me, but it's more shocking is that these people that jump on the bandwagon of. Of calling out modern Israel, you think, have you never read the Book of Judges? I mean, have you never read the Old Testament that, you know, when you think about, like, King Manasseh, they're sacrificing children to Molech. I mean, that you. This guy is the worst king ever. And God is really upset with him, and he's. He's from Judah, okay? So here he is, you know, the father of. Of Hezekiah, and he is bad. And so the point is, is that even in the midst of. Of King Manasseh doing what he did and having all of the, The. The. A lot of followers that were worshiping pagan gods, were they still God's chosen people? Yeah, they were. They. God did not. Did not cast them off. And so even if you go to Jeremiah, right? You go to Jeremiah, which. Same thing in Jeremiah, chapter 11 and 11. 14 and 14. 11. It's really easy to memorize. God says to Jeremiah, do not pray for these people. Really, do not pray for them. I am gonna. I'm gonna annihilate them because of their wickedness. And of course, you have the remnant. Daniel, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, they're all part of the remnant, many of them to Babylon. God has his remnant, of course. But in Ezekiel 8, Ezekiel 16, you see these. What they were doing inside the temple, like in the temple precincts. They're worshiping all these. These things, their sexual immorality. God's like, look at what they're doing, Ezekiel, in the midst of my temple. You're like, oh, yeah, that's no different today.
- [18:48]
A
I mean, that's my point. I'm like, it's the same. It's the same. So I. I really appreciate you bringing that up. So, okay, so one of the questions I wrote down for you, and this is where some of the screenshots that I took from the. The teaching that might come in handy. But before we dive into some of these things, I do want to talk about the Book of Judges. I have all of that for you to just kind of run, Run, Mondo run. But can you share some of the current beliefs that. That the Jewish people do have? And I want to share this because I want people to know that, like, we're not just standing here ignorant as if we don't know where they are and what they need. And they need a savior and they rejected him the first time. We know these things. And so I thought it would be good for people to see, see some of this and hear it from somebody who is a pastor and all the things and still stands, you know, with the fact that Israel is, it has a purpose in the latter days and there is a purpose for why they are to come back and then God's not done with them. So if you could maybe go into some of the current beliefs, that would be awesome. And I'll pull up some of those screenshots that I have.
- [19:46]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Because if you, if you think about Modern Israel, there's two things. Modern Israel is about 75% secular. Okay? It was founded as a secular nation. And, and again, this is just well known. So it was not even though God brought it back. God is sovereigns. He got even. If you think about Israel becoming, coming back to the land after the Babylonian captivity, he used Cyrus, you know, Isaiah 44 and 45, he used this, this, this pagan Gentile who he calls Mashiach, interested Messiah. He uses this guy, this world ruler to bring them back. So God is sovereign and God, God will use unbelievers to accomplish his will. I mean, look at, look at Nebuchadnezzar. Nebuchadnezzar was a, he was a, of course we know he's pagan king. And he judged his, he judged Judah. So God used this pagan king. So all that to say God will use unbelievers to accomplish his will. And that's exactly how he established the, the land of Israel was through these unbelievable, unbelieving secularists. Okay? So to say that God wasn't behind it, again, what I say is, haven't you read your Bible? Seriously? Now, that doesn't mean that God is blessing them because of their righteousness. And that's why I asked one of the questions, do they deserve to be in the land? They've never deserved to be in the land. Deuteronomy 9. So I think this is where again, precision, nuance, theological understanding is very important. And so as you have this slide up here, we all recognize this, the Bible never says that God is going to bring Israel back into the land because they're righteous or that when he does bring them back, we are to look at them as some epitome of righteousness. That is not the case. In fact, Romans 11:26, talking about their future says all Israel will be saved and he will remove ungodliness from Jacob. So right now in the land of Israel, he brought them back in unbelief. This is well known. Not, not. And I don't even see people like to pick on dispensationalism. This is in the Bible. Who cares about a dispensational system? If you read the Bible, Romans 11:26, it's crystal clear. Ezekiel 30:6, you see the passages there, verses 24 and 25, he brings them back and then, then later, at some subsequent time, he gives them his spirit and they come to place of salvation. So this is where I think the passage talking about God, they're going to be saved and he's going to remove ungodliness. Well, that implies that there is. And so as you can see there, this is the case now. So what I, what I try to talk about is, look, we recognize that 75 of Israel is secular. They don't really care about religion or they're agnostic or atheist or whatever. So yes, they're not in a state of salvation. Why? Because they don't believe in Jesus. Whether you're Jew or gentile, you have to believe in Jesus. End of story. John 14:6. So the other thing that I discuss is, well, what about the religious people? You know, you see again, Judaism, religious Judaism, you know, they're there, they're praying against the wall. Some of them have the long, you know, curls coming down. They got their hats. I know others that are very, they, they believe the Bible, they believe they're living in, in a time of, of Messianic fervor. So what does that mean? Well, does it mean they're saved? Not according to scripture. Jesus said, you cannot come to the Father except through the Messiah. Jesus. That's the end of. That's true in the first century to the Pharisees that were there. It's true with the modern day Pharisees, the whole rabbinic movement. And so when you look at some of the rabbinic viewpoints of Jesus, I mean they, historically speaking, the rabbis really took root after 70 AD, after the temple was destroyed. Because when the Temple was destroyed, the Zealots were gone, the Sadducees were gone, the Essenes were gone. You only had one real group left and that was the Pharisees, who then developed into what we understand now is the modern rabbinic movement. And then producing their, their oral law, which is called the Mishnah. About 200 AD later, the Mishnah plus the commentary is called the Talmud. About 4 to 500 AD, depending on whether it's the Palestinian or the Jerusalem Talmud or as we understand, the Babylonian. So here you have one of the rabbinic views. This is important too, because look, this is, this is meant just to show fact. I, you know, I'm not anti Jew, I'm not anti rabbi necessarily. But clearly their views, as you can see here, Jesus was a bastard son of adulterous Mary. They did not like Mary. She was an adulteress. It's similar to what you see in John 6 and John 8 when they accused Jesus of being born of fornication. They accused Jesus of being a sexual deviant, like, again, like his mother. He's one of four people never to be saved. Jesus was a magician who seduced Israel. Again, they understood that there was a big segment of Jews who followed after Jesus in the first century, the Messiah. That's why they talk about him seducing Israel. He was a magician. They recognized that he did miracles. So. But he was a blasphemer, an idolater, and a false prophet, and he's in hell forever in boiling excrement. So this is, this is well known. This isn't anything new. So again, I'm not here to defend rabbinic Judaism by any means. Even though there's some elements. There's some rabbis today who actually I really like. Okay, that doesn't mean that I believe they're saved or I believe in their theology, but they are good in the civic sense. No one's good Romans, right, We know this. Okay, so the point being is, I am not here to defend modern Israel's righteousness, whether secular or religious, but my goal in being, in having support for ultimately, people say, do you support Israel? I'd say, well, indirectly and. Well, what do you mean by that? Again, let's define our terms. I support the promises of God. That is what I support. And the promises of God. This is why Deuteronomy 9, God tells them, you, you don't deserve to be in the land. But I made a promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It's not because of your righteousness, but because of my oath to them. Jeremiah 31, 35 and 36 says, God says. I mean, I don't know how much clearer. He says, if you can get rid of the Son and the moon and the stars and the cycles, then Israel will cease to be a nation before me forever. It the only way. Anybody who is maybe all millennial or post millennial or covenant, they have to spiritualize that. They cannot take that straight forward because it says they will never cease to be a nation. So that means when Israel was wandering in 200 AD or 400 AD, they have scattered all over because as Jesus said they would after. After the thing, they're still a nation. They're just a scattered nation. Okay. Scripture is meant to be taken in a normal, literal way. And, And Lauren, that's really what it comes down to is.
- [26:52]
A
Yeah, it is.
- [26:54]
B
One group, they take all the promises, all the messianic prophecies of Jesus's first coming, they take them literal. And then when it comes to these other ones, Isaiah, chapter 2, Isaiah 11, talking about the future kingdom, the. The lion eating straw, the wolf laying with the lamb, they say, oh, that's spiritual. And you go, you guys change the rules. We aren't the ones changing the rules. You. You guys agree that Jesus was born in Bethlehem? Micah 5:2. Literal or figurative? No, that's literal. But. But Bethlehem means house of bread. Shouldn't that be something figurative? No, it's literal. Okay, Right. But they change in the rules. This is why I think they end up. They're forced to look at these passages and they make them spiritual or they transfer them over to the church, or they're fulfilled in Jesus only as if they are going to be filled through the person of Jesus. But it's as if, oh, well, they're fulfilled to Jesus. Now, now we can just take away the original meaning. That is not what the Bible ever does. Ever.
- [27:52]
A
No, 100%. And I think that that's the hard part, too, is that what I feel like is happening and we can get to this in a little bit. And I've actually had this discussion with a few friends and then of course, Lance as well, because we spend so much of our time talking about, you know, the times that we're in, is that it's almost like what we're seeing right now, Mondo, is the conspiracy truth or world merging with replacement theology, and it's now creating this monster of something. And I have some questions there that we can dive into in a little bit on that. There was one other thing I wanted you to address. I. When I was watching this video that you did this teaching, you mentioned something about you were. You like to. How did you word that? You. Whenever you speak to someone when you're in Israel, you. You. You know Hebrew and you ask them to read a Hebrew passage with you, and you ask them about Yeshua and they go, who? And so I would love for you to talk about that because some people actually may not know this about the, the translations of the name. So let me pull that slide up too so that you, you can talk about that.
- [28:53]
B
Yeah, this is when you, when you go there, you know, you know, I'm not an expert in modern Hebrew. I used to be really good, actually. I did, actually did a sermon once in modern Hebrew. And of course, as you know, if you don't use it, you lose it. But in my conversations back then, I would talk about, you know, talk about things and then I would transition over to say, well, hey, let's talk about Yeshua, as you can see here. And in Hebrew they would, they would say, me, me, me means who? And they'd be like, who? And I'd say Yeshua. And. And then I would go, they very good in English. So then I'd go to English Jesus. And they go, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you mean Yeshu. And I'm like, so in that entire culture, secular, religious, it doesn't matter. All going back, you know, a couple millennia, they do not call Jesus by his Hebrew name, which is Yeshua, because Yeshua means he saves or he shall save. It's, it's like you, you can see it's, it's a derivative of Joshua, Yehoshua. But you, if you, if you go back and just put in some of the English Bibles, J E S H U A you'll see that name pop up. It was a very well known, it's a shortened form. So anyways, so I would say, oh well, but what's interesting about it is why do they call Jesus Yeshua? Well, a long time ago they began to call him Yeshu because of this acrostic here and it's Yimcho Kshemo ulam. And what, so they say it's, it's Yeshu. And what it means is may his name be blotted out forever. So in the rabbinic idea, or just in that culture, and I think many of the, I would say most of the, the secular people have no idea what this even is. Okay? They don't, they just know that they've always called him Yeshua. They don't necessarily know why. So this is why you have to kind of cross that bridge and to say, no, Yeshua, and they're going to know the name Yeshua. That, that's a very well known name in, in Hebrew, certainly in, in the Bible. But the fact of the matter is, according to the very language going back to the religious, and even again in the secular culture, they call Jesus Yeshu, which has this very insulting wish and this Shows you again, this is un. This is the ungodliness of Jacob that Romans 11:26 says that God is going to remove. That's the whole point. Why would God bring the Jews back to the land of Israel after 1870 years? Just for fun? No, he has a purpose for them. The purpose is called the 70th week of Daniel, the tribulation period. Okay? That's his purpose. Why? Because God's promises, all the promises that he made, which are left unfulfilled, they will be fulfilled through the person of Jesus physically, literally, in the land. God says, well, in order for me to save them, I got. I'm going to get them back into the land. And I want them back into the land, because that's part of the plan. Now, certainly there are many messianic Jews today. Olivier Melnick. We have, we know others.
- [31:58]
A
Yeah.
- [31:59]
B
They don't need to be in the land to be saved. But what we're talking about is right now you have individuals, and this is Paul's whole teaching. In Romans 11, he says the. He talks about elect, and he's talking about the elect of the Jews. And he says, well, the elect have obtained it. And he's talking about himself. He says, well, I'm of the tribe of Benjamin. He says, but the rest were blinded. So right now we're dealing with. There are a few. So that. He says, why? So that the doctrine of election would stand. But the rest were blinded. But there's coming a point where Israel as a nation is going to come to be saved. But in order for them to get to that place where they move beyond Yeshu and they look at the one whom they've pierced, Zechariah 12:10. They have to go through that 70th week period. It's the time of what? Jeremiah 30, verse 7. It's the time of Jacob's trouble. But he will be saved out of it. Yes, by the end, he will be saved. Zechariah 13:8. What does it say? Well, it says only one third are going to end up being the remnant. The rest of the two thirds are not going to make it. So this is why, if you look at all these passages, look, I'm not taking any of that spirit figuratively, spiritually, it reads straightforward. It's just like I would take all the first coming Messianic prophecies. That's the difference. I just, I cannot say it enough. If you want to accuse us of anything, accuse us of being consistent in our hermeneutics.
- [33:23]
A
Yeah, I agree with that. And I. Let me share this one really too, because I told you, obviously, Joel Richardson, we have some differences as far as the timing of the Rapture, but he has been on point lately with his stuff on what he is saying about Israel. And this was so good. I saved this and I even shared it all over my social media. So I'm just gonna read it for everybody. I'm just trying to keep the Candace Tucker storyline straight here. Israel can't have any prophetic significance because it's a secular godless state. And the people there aren't even real Jews anyway. They're Turkic Khazar imposters. But at the same time, Israel is masterminding a global religious war so they can build the third Jewish temple. So the working theory is that a nation of secular atheist Turks are masterminding the restoration of the ancient Jewish priesthood and temple system which requires verifia Jewish lineage to functions. Those sneaky Turks. I just thought this was so well worded. I was like, dang, Joel, it was just it. But it's true because this is what's being postulated all over the Internet. And I'm like, oh my gosh. Like mondo people really just. They don't understand the, the mosaic of scripture. Like, it's just. I don't know why it's so baffling. I mean, other than we know people's eyes are blinded. We know all of that. We get how the end times work. We do, we understand that. But this kind of stuff is just driving me batty because I'm seeing it everywhere without the ability to nuance between some of the things that we're talking about.
- [34:44]
B
That's the thing, you know, second Timothy 2:15 says, study to show yourself, you know, an approved workman, rightly dividing the word of truth. So this is. And not dividing in the sense of rightfully nuancing. Okay, that's probably the best English translation, right? Rightfully nuancing the word of truth. We understand that these are, these are complex issues. Look, it's not, it's not confusing how to get saved. Jesus said, I'm the way, the truth and life, no one comes to father except for me. No confusion. There it is. Okay, but in some of these other issues, there's no doubt it gets complex. It can become complicated because you have to spend the time to say what. What is the. What is the overall framework that logically fits. And this is, I think again, what Joe said there. Joel said there was perfect because he's like, come on guys, you know, you're Totally double talking here in this conspiracy world, which, again, Candace and Tucker both are. And it's interesting because it's. It's like, you know, any of us, I can go and find the worst English person. I could go find the worst French person, and I could show how wicked and miserable and sexually immoral they are. And then I go, see, look at the French. And then I. What I'm doing is I'm stereotyping now everybody based on me going and picking even a random group, okay, Of. Of English and going, man, look at that. I mean, yes, there are wicked people under every ethnic group, every group, 100%.
- [36:16]
A
And so one of the things that I was thinking about, and you did kind of bring this up, but you can elaborate a little bit more. Why shouldn't it be a surprise right now that the Jews are in unbelief? I mean, you mentioned in the video, and then you briefly mentioned it here, that it's kind of like we're seeing the Book of Judges playing out. And if anybody's read that book, holy smokes, y', all, they were not holy. The only good king was Josiah. Bless his soul for going in and tearing down all the idols and burning stuff. I'm like, Josiah went in there and he said, this is getting done the right way. Like, and. And God was. God gives his whole, you know, synopsis of how great Josiah was. But everyone else, he's like, they did what they did right. Was it what was right in the side of. In their own eyes, however it's worded, what was right anyway? You can word it better than what I just did, but why shouldn't we be surprised that they're in unbelief? And. And how is this the same thing as everyone's doing what's right in their own eyes? I mean, it's kind of related, is it not?
- [37:09]
B
Yeah, because I think so. In. In the Book of Judges, it's, you know, it says everybody there was. It says this several times, especially the last chapter. In those days, there was no king in Israel, and everybody did was right in their own eyes. So you have this centuries long history of God raising up judges. You know, they would come and go, but it was wickedness, of course, and that was a cycle. Wickedness. They would cry out for God for help because they'd be oppressed by the Philistines or the Moabites, and then God would send a judge and then he would rescue them, and everybody would be good for about five minutes, and then they'd go back to their Old ways. And then they would cry out because God would oppress them again. And then when you get to, you know, first Samuel and you begin to see the time of first Samuel and then first and second Kings in Chronicles, those books, you go, wow, okay, there wasn't a single good king in the Northern kingdom. All of them were absolutely wicked. I mean, just wicked. And so that's why they got removed in 722 BC by the Syrians. Well, then you go, okay, what about Judah? Well, heck, when you get to Judah, so that's 722. Well, 100 years later, in 622, you get to 612 or so, which is where Josiah is. And, and, and again, 700, 700 is. Is Hezekiah. Before him is Manasseh. Watch out. Right? So you have all of these, you have all of this horrible thing. So even after, even after the northern kingdom is gone, Ezekiel comes along in Ezekiel 16. And Ezekiel is contemporary with Jeremiah and Daniel, you know, roughly 600 BC to 550. Okay, so God's going, judah, you're worse than your sister Samaria. I mean, I removed them from the land because of their wickedness. And you should have known better. But, you know, certainly the southern kingdom had some good kings. Jehoshaphat was a great king. Hezekiah was a great king. Josiah, certainly David, Solomon, he. He started well, but ended bad in the sense of they were part of the United Kingdom. But if you go to this, even the, the southern kingdom, they had some good ones. Okay? But by the end, wickedness, Josiah was the last good one. And God said, man, you guys have done even worse. And that's why he was so mad that he said to Jeremiah, don't even pray for him. I've pronounced judgment on them. So again, when you look today, is God mad at Israel today? Yes.
- [39:29]
A
Yeah, right? Yeah. I don't know why. Yeah, I mean, again, it's like, I feel like we just need to be able to have the balance and the nuance. And we kind of already hit on this. But I feel like the real problem is Mondo, along with the hermeneutics, that's a whole other topic of conversation. But the other problem is, is that people don't understand the purpose of the tribulation. And when I talked about this, I've just talked about the three main purposes. And I know whenever you did this video, you. You talked about several more. But the three main that I always talk about is the purpose of the tribulation. And I'm not Doing this in the order of importance. But it's to end wickedness. It's to put an end to wickedness. It is to see the most insane revival for Jesus ever. So big that there isn't even a number that is put on how many people will go through that process and become believers in Jesus. And the big one is it is to bring Israel to its knees in repentance, to see that they missed their Messiah the first time. And that is the point of it. And so I feel like if, if people could just understand that. And this is where I kind of get like, wow, okay, so we have all these different views on when the rapture is and all of that, but I feel like that's where that gets conflated because then you put the church and Israel in the same pocket and it doesn't work very well. But my point is, is that Daniel's 70th week is about who go back. And this is for whose people? Who are the people that are being talked about? It is the Jewish people. So that's what the whole 70th week is about. And again, I know you had like five or six other reasons that you had in your. Your slide on that particular part, but would you agree that that's also part of the problem is that people don't understand the purpose of the tribulation. They think it's for us to fight through, for us to fight the Antichrist, all of that. I'm seeing a lot of that too online. Am I wrong?
- [41:11]
B
No, no, not. You're not wrong in your assessment because this is often the case. And you see some of these, you see a lot of these pejorative terms that us dis. Fees or dispensations, that we just think we're going to get out of here. That, that we're too. That we're too righteous, that we don't deserve to have any tribulation. You know what? Nobody says that John 16:33 in this world you're going to have tribulation, okay? But be of good cheer. And I know a lot of Christians who have had tremendous tribulation in a variety of ways. And so to be a dispensationalist does not ever again. See, this is the slander. It does not mean no dispensationalist that truly understands with nuance what the. That theology and holds ever says. Oh, we're getting out of here. We're never going to have trouble that. See, again, it's slanderous. It's a straw man argument. It Sounds wonderful. Nobody teaches that. But when you look at, again, the purpose of the tribulation period, that 70th week of Daniel, if we say it that way, it is for two things. It's for the Jewish people. You said it. But it's also for the holy city. It's for the Jerusalem. Daniel 9:24 says that. So when it talks about finishing the transgression or the rebellion, it's talking about Jews. And when it's talking about ending sin, it's talking about Jews, it's talking about the holy city, about cleansing iniquity, it's talking about the Jews and bringing an everlasting righteous. Talking about Jerusalem and Jews during the millennial period, you know, there's some scholars that believe that the Jews who are living there will be living in a. In a state of righteousness, of course, being saved. But the fact of the matter, they like under, let's say, Josiah, there is going to be no worshiping of idols. There's just going to be no rebellion. There is going to be no. None of that. They have anointed the most holy place. Now, granted, there might be sin. We certainly see other parts of the nations in Zechariah 14 as an example that they're going to. There's going to be lots of risk and rebellion out there, but not amongst the Jews. That's what Daniel 9:24:27 teaches. You got to keep it in context. This is talking about during, when, when God wraps this up, he's going to finish this for the nation of Israel, for the Jews and for the city. And of course, that's just the 70 Duke of Daniel. But when you think about the other broader theological perspectives, again, the purpose of the tribulation ultimately is Romans 11:26, all of Israel will be saved, and God will remove ungodliness from Jacob. It's going to be his time of trouble, but he's going to be saved. They're gonna. They're gonna be refined in the fire of the tribulation 70th week. But they're going to call out to God and he's going to answer their call. So you see these very. These other passages of Scripture too, that in their distress, it says, they will seek me in their distress, you know, Hosea, chapter five. They ultimately, Zechariah 12:10, they will look upon him whom they have pierced, and they will mourn. You think about that, is that you have this, this group, and they're going to realize by the end of the tribulation period, the seventh week of Daniel, they're going to realize we've been calling our Messiah Yeshu. Yes, we've been saying. We've been saying that he's been in boiling excrement. That's our Messiah, and they're going to mourn like an only son. That's the consistent viewpoint. Again, there's no figurative interpretation here. It's normal, plain reading. The. The Messianic prophecies of the second coming are just as literal and normal as the first coming prophecies. Again, there's no tricks. We're consistent from here to here. The other systems you want to talk about, people say, well, dispensation is a system. Well, covenant theology is a system.
- [44:49]
A
It's right.
- [44:50]
B
It goes back to a covenant of works. Where's that at in the Bible? It's not in the book of Genesis. This covenant works with Adam. Well, they. God had a covenant with Adam. Where's that? I don't see it anywhere. It's complete fiction, which they go, well, we.
- [45:04]
A
We.
- [45:05]
B
We get it by implication through theology. Oh, okay, okay. So if dispensationalists come up with a deduced or an implied theological thing, now they're creating theology where they're doing the same thing. Theirs isn't a system, and dispensationalism is. Come on, guys, let's be fair and honest here, okay? Everybody's reading the Scripture. Look, we. We all love Jesus. We're all looking at this stuff. We're all brothers and sisters. That's my attitude. I love many of my covenant friends, of course, okay? But the fact of the matter is, at the end of the day, where I land is. Look, brother, I love you. You're just not being consistent. You're changing your hermeneutics. And so your accusations against some of this is. Is unfair. It's. It's slanderous. And I'm not a dispensationalist because I learned this at Moody Bible Institute. Okay, that's not.
- [45:54]
A
I'm sure somebody would come and say that, too. I. I've seen mono. I'm seeing it happen everywhere. And I'm like, this is really frustrating because it's not accurate. Go ahead.
- [46:03]
B
You know, I was reading. I was saved for about 10 years before I ever went to Moody. And I'm reading by. And what was I doing? I was reading books on hermeneutics. I really wanted to understand the Bible. So when I finally went to Moody, I was like, I already read that book. I already read that book, man. I already read that book. So actually, my Undergrad was relatively easy because I had read most of the books already in the sense of learning how to read the Bible. And so I came to this conclusion before I ever went to Moody. And what my seminary I went to, they weren't dispensational at all. So you get this implication by some that say, well, all the seminaries, they just indoctrinated people. The Schofield Bible, look, there's a Reform study Bible. There was the Geneva Bible study Bible in 15, you know, 1560. So to just to throw those labels out, I think is a little unfair. Now, granted, there are some people out there that have not nuanced the Bible well enough. And maybe they went to a dispensational school or maybe they went to reform school. I know many people that when you talk to them who are Covenant theologians, they went to Reformed seminary. And you go, well, have you ever looked at any other book? Have you ever read it like a book by Dwight Pentecost? No. Oh, so you got your Covenant theology, your amillennial perspective from the seminary you went to. Well, yeah. See how it works both ways?
- [47:20]
A
It does, absolutely.
- [47:22]
B
Works both ways. And I'm not going to slander them. I'm not going to go, well, they're just brainwashed. Hey, you know what? Everybody has the opportunity to read for themselves. And so in that regard, I didn't get it from seminary and I didn't get it from Moody. In fact, I think I took one class at Moody on eschatology, and that was only part of the class.
- [47:40]
A
So that is so well said. And I'm so glad that you brought that up, too, because I didn't get here to where I'm at to on the things that I stand on it. I don't like labels, first of all, because there are some things that I don't agree with that dispensational theology teaches. And I go, I don't really agree with that. I see it this way. Okay, so in saying that, though I did study all the views, I went through amillennialism, I went through post millennialism, I went through pre millennialism, and then all the various things that you could be if you're pre millennialist, and I landed here on the pre trib camp, why did I do that? Because it all answered the most questions that I had, and it was the most consistent. That is how I ended up here. So that's the point is like, I think when people do this and they have not, because I've heard. Heard this lately. Oh, I Used to be a dispy. And by the way, I feel like that is a very derogatory term. I feel like it's used that way. And so when somebody comes at me with that kind of terminology, I can see that they're already on the defense somehow or they want to put me on the defense about what I believe. But when they're like, I used to be a dispy and I left it because of X, Y and Z and you guys are fulfilling your own prophecies, which we do need to talk about that. And I'm going, but the things that you're stating don't represent anything that I believe. I'm very confused by that, Mondo. Like, and I get a little bit, you know, enraged sometimes where I have to just calm it down a little bit. But I'm going, that doesn't represent what we believe. So before we tackle a couple of other things that we have here, let's discuss that because the big thing that is all over the interwebs right now is that you and I, Mondo, we're out here promoting that this is how all this is going to go down. And that is in fact self fulfilling all the we're self fulfilling the very prophetical things that we see.
- [49:20]
B
So, so let me, let's address that. But I'll just one little thing first and that is sure, you mentioned about the different views of the millennium. If you go back to the early church, Irenaeus especially, I mean here's a guy that's, that's. He's basically two people away from John. Right. Polycarp and then John. So these guys, it's called killyism. I mean it's, it's this millennial idea. This isn't does. This didn't start with Darwin. It's not new the, in the first couple centuries. Now granted, again, you can find. Pick a church father and you'll find someone that agrees with you. Okay. It just is.
- [49:58]
A
Sure.
- [49:58]
B
But there's no doubt there were a variety of viewpoints in the first century and even in the second century and into the third. But millennialism, killyism, which is kind of just more of a. I would say it's the same label, but it's just an older label going back to really the, I would say 17, 1800s in theology. Millennialism was absolutely 100 there and evident. Again, Irenaeus is the king and he, you know, he, he, I believe he died around 205. Okay, so he's early. So most of his writings are late. You Know, third century basically, or second century even. So. So you think, okay, wow. So to say that these, these viewpoints are these pre millennial dispensations is. Is something that is late. Because what you'll hear often is. Well, I, My view is that my view holds to what the church has believed for the last, you know, 1800 years. And you go, that's actually not true. Because the fact of the matter is, again, even there's. Lee Brainard has done great work, Tommy Ice has done great work on showing that there absolutely were viewpoints about people being rescued off of the earth. Off of the earth prior to a time of trouble. Okay, yes, that's very dispensational. Didn't start with Darby. No, no. Again, no one's denying that Darby didn't systematize things or in the same way that the reformers systematized things for in the sense of Covenant theology. So again, people, Darby is just as guilty as some of the, the reformers are in. Again, if you look at some of the councils, the councils of Dortmund, the Westminster Confession, that's called systemization. Okay? So they systematized a lot of their viewpoints just like Darby did. Okay. And the fact of the matter is that these people today that are making these comments about, well, Darby systematize this. And you go, you know, that's the same argument that the Catholic Church made against the Protestant Reformers when they were had their Counter Reformation is you guys are systematizing something that wasn't part of the church for the last 1500 years. And you go, well, that sounds awfully so. Again, this is the inconsistency historically. But so with, I think too, one of the other books which is phenomenal is Dispensationalism before Darby by William.
- [52:17]
A
I didn't own it. Yeah.
- [52:19]
B
Yes. Have you never read what the English reformers were doing, you know, in the 1500s and the 1600s? This is well before Darby. So you have again, some of these little, these little pockets of dispensational thought. Again, a preacher rapture, pre millennialism, the idea of church in Israel being distinct, the idea that Israel has a future. Okay, granted, all those little things, no doubt they were not systematized until Darby. I have no problem with that. But they were there. They were there in the first century. Irenaeus. I mean, I have it. People can go. I haven't. I always make things real easy. If they go to prophecywatchers.com temple. Okay, you can go back. I have a whole list of things about the temple because you know, a lot of people ask, well, where's this idea that there's a third Temple gonna happen? I give you all of them. I give you not only from the Bible, I talk about the teak from thing the two from the Bible, but I give all of church history, as many as I could find, about where this idea of a new physical third temple would be rebuilt sometime in the future and it would be done by and with the Jews. Okay, that's in church history. That did not begin with Darby. Absolutely not.