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Are We Watching Ezekiel 38 Unfold Now? | Mike Spaulding | The Week in Bible Prophecy
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- [00:02]
Mondo Gonzales
The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
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Gary Stearman
Hello, I'm Gary Stearman. Welcome to Prophecy Watchers. We have, of course, with us today, Mondo Gonzales. But in addition to that, we have a very special guest. And Mondo, you can introduce our guest.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
Yes, we are going to be discussing some fun topics today, Ezekiel 38, 39, as well as Jeremiah 49 with Dr. Mike Spalding. So you've written a lot about this, talked a lot about it, and so it's good to have you here.
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Mondo Gonzales
Thank you, Mondo. It's a pleasure to be here.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
Yeah, it's going to be good, Gary, with all the things that are happening. We thought since Mike was here for some other interviews that it would be good to sit around with all the wisdom right here and talk about this. What's your, you know, what's your immediate response to all that's happening in the Middle east right now? You got any quick thoughts before we dive deep?
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Gary Stearman
Well, I think my thoughts are just like everybody else's thoughts. Somewhere in the back of your mind you've got Ezekiel 38, the first three or four verses, and you've been reading about this for years, and you've been thinking about it and saying, no, no, no, I don't think that's it at all. And then you come back to it once again, and what you have in Ezekiel 38 is what appears to be a narrative for a Middle east war. And there are a lot of details that we have and we've all tried for years, and I know you have tried for years, just like the rest of us, to place this in context. How are we doing?
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Dr. Mike Spalding
You know, we're doing our best to try to place things in context because it's. And I think the one thing I appreciate about both of you guys is that, is that we're not here to sensationalize anything. You know, we're not here to try to make something fit that doesn't. The scripture says what it says and we anticipate it being a future event. But we're not here necessarily to do newspaper exegesis, which is often the case of people who get accused of. But let me ask you this, Mike, in the sense of the I read, I interacted with somebody recently through social media, and they were making the strong claim that Ezekiel 38 and 39 has often the case has been fulfilled in history. And so which we'll get to Jeremiah 49 as well. That'll be interesting. But right out of the gate, what would be your response to someone claiming that, no, no. Ezekiel 38, that's. I mean, this was written basically 600 BC and this is over. Nothing to see here. Definitely not future. What's kind of an immediate response. We know that's out there.
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Mondo Gonzales
Yeah, yeah, so you triggered me when I heard 600 B.C. okay, now you're talking Nebuchadnezzar. So. No. So if that's your argument, we've never seen a coalition of nations like this that has come against Israel. And, and I point people to verse four, especially where God says, I'll turn you about and put hooks in your jaws and I'll bring you out in your armies. We've never seen that God's going to be in charge of this situation. He is orchestrating this and he's bringing this for a reason. And that is so that he can magnify his own name and he can deliver his people. So this fits in with a lot of other prophecies that we like to talk about. But anybody that would make that claim that this has already been fulfilled in the past, I wouldn't take that seriously.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
You know, and with the twice in the passage, you have the phrase in the latter years, you have the phrase in the latter days. How does that. You know, you've written a huge commentary on Ezekiel, which is great. And how does Ezekiel 38 fit within the sequence of chronology? Well, from basically Ezekiel 33 on, and we know Ezekiel 36, 37 is the dry bones vision, does the chronology fit here? Does the theme of the flow of the passage lead us to this idea of restoration? I mean, that's kind of where I see it, but maybe outline that for us in the sense of where it's at.
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Mondo Gonzales
Yeah, that's exactly where I see this leading. And this fits very nicely with passages in Zechariah. It fits, in my view, passages of Joel. These things are going to transpire. And again, the goal is, and this is a point we need to make today because of anti Semitism, the goal is that the Lord is going to deliver his people, Israel. That's the bottom line we talked about in an earlier episode. We talked about the Great Commission and the Gospel being a picture of God's care and concern for his people, Israel. Well, that's what God is bringing to fruition. He's bringing all of the nations together and he's delivering Israel in the midst of that. And all of the nations then will magnify his name. And that's when I read Ezekiel 38 and 39, and I know the players and the names, countries There's a lot of stuff going on here, but the bottom line is that God is going to magnify his name through his people, Israel, as he delivers them.
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Gary Stearman
Now, you said that you recognize a lot of these countries and so forth. I have a question. Ezekiel 38 does something that. It's sort of rare in the Bible. And in verse six, it says Gomer and all his bands. The house of Togarmah of the North Quarters. Oops. What is North Quarters, by the way? This suggests that an invasion is coming from the north into Israel.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
Well, let's get into it, because the outline here again for those that are watching, is Ezekiel 38. And we'll get to the players, because this is one of the few places where you have a whole host of ancient names. Just remember that these are ancient names, these are modern names, but you also have ancient names. And it's not just names of individuals, it's names. It's also geographical locations. And so when you're trying to puzzle out what these names mean in their modern counterparts, you have to look at where the names are and their timeframe. Because Chuck Missler used to say, and still sticks with me from the 90s, is he'd say, well, if I said to you, I'm going to Leningrad, you'd be like, well, where's Leningrad? Well, in the Soviet era, that's St. Petersburg. Right? Or if I say, hey, I went to Constantinople last week, you'd be like, Constantinople? You mean Istanbul? Yes. So the names often change for a specific geographical location. And Ezekiel's using names from 600 B.C. looking at his counterparts. So, you know, if you were 400 AD and you were talking about Constantinople or the Bible used that term, you'd be like, well, clearly we understand that today to be the ancient name for the modern city of, you know, Istanbul. So in the same way you have these players here, I'll just read them and we could talk about them. Because you brought up Gomer, which I know you've written, Gary's actually written, has a DVD on Gomer, which is pretty fascinating, talking about its connection with Germany. But it says here, gog of the land of Magog, Prince of Rosh, Meshech, Tubal. I'll just list out the names. Gog, the prince of Rosh, Meshach and Tubal. I'm reading the new King James here. I know it gets a little bit different. And he says you have Persia, Ethiopia, Libya are all with you, Gomer and his troops. So in the sense of the players here, I know even amongst prophecy guys, There's a lot of differences of opinion. We all love each other, we get along, we have different minor nuances. We all agree that for the most part. Gomer, as an example, I mean, Togarmah, where is kind of the base here?
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Mondo Gonzales
Yeah, so to answer your question and yours at the same time. So. And I think this is a very important phrase in verse six when it says that from the remote parts of the north.
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Gary Stearman
So, yeah, that's always interesting.
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Mondo Gonzales
Our challenge is to not limit ourselves to a modern Western Christian prophetic mindset and to understand that term, how they would have understood it, how would the Israelites of Ezekiel's day understood that? And I appreciate the work that Derek Gilbert's done in this area. I appreciate Mike Heiser's work in this area. And their suggestion is that that phrase would refer to the supernatural enemies of God in the remote parts of the north. So we're pointing towards Mount Hermon, and, and we know the story surrounding all of that. So I, I appreciate that work. I think it has great explanatory power. But I take it physically, geographically, it's as well as.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
Well, it might have both. I mean, it could it very well.
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Mondo Gonzales
So behind the enemies of Israel are the supernatural powers. I mean, I, I agree with that.
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Gary Stearman
Well, everybody says Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia do use an old phrase when you open to Ezekiel 38. This is God telling the Russians to go south toward Israel now. And I'm making it very simple, but I am willing to be refuted by men of great knowledge like yourself.
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Mondo Gonzales
Well, I'm not so sure about that, Gary, but thank you. What I do appreciate is I was reading Bill Salus recently, and Bill came up through the same kind of prophetic writings and scholarship that I did and you did. And so we know what's out there and we know what's said. But he also admits, and this is something that Heiser pointed out, you cannot get Russia from Rosh.
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Gary Stearman
Okay?
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Dr. Mike Spalding
You can't get that grammatically, etymologically, linguistically, it doesn't work.
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Mondo Gonzales
That's right.
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Gary Stearman
But everybody does.
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Mondo Gonzales
But everybody does. But my point about Bill is he was gracious enough to say we can't get Russia from that word. Nevertheless. Okay, that's the argument.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
All right. And I think too, what I, what I heard years ago, I know many of you might have read Chuck Missler's book on Gog and Magog, and I'm not saying that he necessarily believed it, but he would mention, you know, who really did this was going back even earlier to Jack Van Impeach yes. And I used to watch Jack Van Impe, which loved inspiring guy. But he would talk about Meshech being connected through linguistics to Moscow, which again, that's been refuted. He would talk about Tubal being linguistically connected to Tobolsk, which is another city and which has been refuted. Okay, so, but for me, one of the interesting things, so you have these kind of, I would say, superficial associations like Rosh. Rosh is a Hebrew word. It means chief. It's like Rosh Hashanah, if you. That means head of the New Year. Chief of the New Year. It's a Hebrew word. And bereshit in the beginning, Rasheet comes from Rosh. So you have these Hebrew connections which it doesn't work from Hebrew to these other linguistic names. But one of the things that I would be one that I don't get to Russia through Meshech, Tubal or Rosh. I see potentially or likely Russia is somehow involved because of the connection that you see from, from Magog. Magog, at least according to Josephus, according to Jerome, they very strongly connect Magog with the Scythians. Scythians appear in Colossians 3:11, so it's in the Bible. So the Scythians, if you look at their history, they basically go from eastern Ukraine, across the southern steps of Russia, down into basically everything north of the Black Sea, so down into all the stands in that area.
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Gary Stearman
So.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
So that's pretty far north. And I would say that today, I mean, if you looked at it, let's say 50 years ago, you'd be like, oh, well, that's the Soviet Union. But there doesn't necessarily need to be absolute Russia, but there's no doubt, at least geographically, Magog goes there. So to me, I still think I'm still open minded. That's why even with stuff with Ukraine, you think, was Ukraine involved in this? Because the Scythians were there and connected with Magog. So you have players.
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Gary Stearman
Would that be north of the Black Sea, where there is war today?
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Dr. Mike Spalding
Yeah, there's a lot of. And as we know, those are a lot of the previous bloc countries of the Soviet Union for sure. But what we will say at least, and I know what you have in the commentary which is helpful, is the key player is not necessarily Russia. The key player is Turkey. Almost all these names go to Anatolia, which is basically what we understand as modern Turkey.
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Gary Stearman
Now everybody is talking about Mr. Erdogan of Turkey.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
Yes.
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Gary Stearman
And his intentions. So you might want to elaborate on that at your, at your freedom.
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Mondo Gonzales
Well, It's a very interesting relationship, if I can define it as that, that, that Turkey Erdogan has with the US with NATO.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
NATO, that's odd, isn't it?
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Mondo Gonzales
Very odd thing for me. How in the world did they ever admit Turkey? Because he's not been silent about what his intentions are and he says some very antagonistic things about Israel or vitriol.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
I mean, vitriolic.
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Gary Stearman
Yes.
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Mondo Gonzales
So I'm not sure how that. But I mean, that's my take. That's where we need to be watching is Turkey. Will they break away from NATO soon?
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Dr. Mike Spalding
Yeah. See, this is kind of the fun thing is because I remember even in the early 90s where Erdogan came on, what, 2002, roughly 20 years ago. And before then Turkey was very Western minded, kind of a secular Muslim country. People would love to go there. I've been to Turkey, actually. I love Turkey. I've been there to seven churches and the people that are phenomenal. It's not. We weren't in Ankara, which is, you know, the capital, which is a little bit more of a, I would say Muslim radicalism there. But we were on the beautiful coast and it was much more secular on the coast. And so we're, I mean, it was great. The people were wonderful. Go to Turkey. Just don't go to the capital. Okay, but, but then you see. So this is where you, if you look at Turkey's history, they come along with NATO, you know, certainly during the time of the Soviet era and the Cold War. And they're very Western. And then Erdogan appears. Yes. And people are always wondering, well, how is Ezekiel 38 going to happen? They're friendly. They're friendly with Israel, they love Israel, they do things together. But then this one guy comes and it's in the last 20 years, he's completely revamped at least, especially the vitriol and the spoken words against Israel in context.
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Gary Stearman
I'm looking at this again. It talks about the House of Togarmah, north quarters and all his bands and many people with thee. Now, who would these bands be?
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Mondo Gonzales
I think it would be his fellow Jihadi Islamists.
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Gary Stearman
But they're getting very powerful
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Mondo Gonzales
and they've got wealth. They have world that always goes a long way toward encouraging people to do stupid things. And then I hear Trump talking about NATO's leaders being a bunch of cowards. And so, you know, he's putting it out there that he's not enamored with NATO at all.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
Their commitment level is pretty weak. Pretty weak.
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Mondo Gonzales
And what would happen to NATO. If Trump said, listen, we're done, you guys protect yourselves, well, that would be all the Excursion would need to say. We don't need that either. Now let's get down to real business.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
Make the break. Because there's no doubt he's going to Turkey, because they're part of NATO would be at the present moment, I imagine, extremely reluctant to attack a NATO ally leased through the United States, which would be Israel. So that's something. It sure seems as we're watching, things can happen fast. As we know geopolitically, something has to happen there in the next who knows how long. But to modify that relationship.
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Mondo Gonzales
Yeah, yeah. And that goes back to what you started us on, gary, with Ezekiel 38. Six and I pointed to four, where it says God's going to turn them around. He's going to put a hook in them and draw them. So whatever designs he has, I think that Turkey is central to what we're reading.
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Gary Stearman
The idea of a forceful turning about by the hand of God.
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Mondo Gonzales
Yes.
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Gary Stearman
And so God. And of course, we always assume this. We know this as Christians, we understand that God deals with the nations in ways that we can't possibly understand. We have no knowledge of what he's doing. But the Bible gives us these guideposts from time to time and I believe they're there for a reason. I believe God wants us to do some thinking about this because we have a rather dramatic series of developments in the Middle east right now. Everybody with even the slightest interest in Bible prophecy is scanning and re scanning Ezekiel 38 to try to put it all together. And I think you two have made a good start.
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Mondo Gonzales
It's our commission, I think, that we're supposed to understand the times in which we live. We know that passage in scripture.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
Absolutely.
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Mondo Gonzales
And I think that's for all of us. We're to understand what it is we're reading and not just close the book and say, well, that's in the past
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Dr. Mike Spalding
or even the sensationalized things. I think that's one of the challenges is when you look out there, some of the accusations again from our brothers and sisters in Christ who we love, it's okay to be disagree on eschatology. But one of the things that was brought up and I want to read, I'll just read this just because I want to get your thoughts on it, is again, well, this is historical. Well, in verse eight, as I mentioned earlier, it says this, after many days you will be visited in the latter years. You talking basically this coalition, specifically the leader Gog, you will come into the land of those brought back from the sword and gathered from many people on the mountains of Israel, okay, which had long been desolate. They were brought out of the nations, and now all of them dwell securely or with confidence in the Hebrew is with confidence. What I find interesting here is it's a reference to the latter years, but also to the mountains of Israel. So in the sense of. Many people will say, well, come on. No, come on, you're just. This is historical. Ezekiel's doing this. He's mentioning this in 600 B.C. well, we know that in the waves, Israel got exiled to Babylon. And so they were there for 70 years, right? Jeremiah 25, okay, so. But I think in 70 years, okay, they're brought back after. Were the mountains long desolate in 70 years? I mean, that's actually not even true at all, because as we know that when the Assyrian captivity happened, the mountains there going all the way from Samaria down into Judah, it was filled with, you know, other peoples. But then Judah got. Judah got basically exiled. But is this. So here's the question. Is this long desolation of the mountains of Israel, So there Israel's coming back after a time of absence. Is it 70 years or is it 1878 years? You know, where is this 1948? Or is this basically 536 BC? Which one fits the text and the latter years better?
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Mondo Gonzales
Yeah, yeah.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
Okay.
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Mondo Gonzales
48.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
48, right.
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Gary Stearman
Yeah, sure.
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Mondo Gonzales
Yeah.
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Gary Stearman
And, you know, this is interesting. When I read this, it always takes me back to a trip to Israel. When we went up, we climbed certain of these mountains and saw everybody, all the tourists who go into Israel go up into the north parts and some of the mountainous territory, and the guide takes you through, and you go through and see ancient ruins. And the Bible says here these mountains, which I think maybe are the mountains in Israel, have been desolate. And when you're a tourist, you go up there and you see this desolation, and your first thought is, wow, when are they going to rebuild all this? You know? Now is this what we're talking about?
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Dr. Mike Spalding
Well, when you go there now, like it said, I just think of Mark Twain's comment, right? He's in the land of Israel in the late 1800s. Like, who would want to live here? It's a disgusting wasteland, which is exactly what Ezekiel 38 says, that this war is going to happen in the latter years, and they're going to come down to the mountains that had long been desolate and now are repopulated by a group of people through that God's people, the Jews who were scattered amongst all the nations, not just Babylon, but God has brought them all back. And this is, to me, what I find interesting here is Ezekiel 38. I'm going to make a profound statement. It occurs after chapter 36 and turn to 37, which I think most scholars would say is clearly a reference to the regathering of of Israel from the nations of the world back into the land in unbelief currently. And so it sets the stage for Ezekiel 38 happening, because you can't come against a land where the Jews aren't even there.
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Mondo Gonzales
That's right. That's right.
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Gary Stearman
So does that make this Ezekiel 38? Does that make this contemporary? In other words, here it is in the Bible. We've got it right before our eyes. Are we reading about something that is a contemporary event to us today?
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Mondo Gonzales
I absolutely say yes, we are. This is coming to fruition right in front of our eyes. And this is a good reason, as we understand Ezekiel 38, 39. This is a good reason. That's exciting. Well, it is exciting. And that's what I was going to say to keep your eyes focused on. You know, I've got some friends that have made this statement and I never quite understood it. And it's this. Well, I don't get involved in politics, I don't want to talk about politics. I don't say anything from the pulpit about politics. And my response is always the same. Well, if you're not going to take time to understand what's going on geopolitically, how in the world do you think you're going to understand any of this? I think you have to speak to the things that we're seeing, not be dogmatic about some of the things, but saying, this looks a lot like this right here and keep an eye on that, which is what we're supposed to be doing anyway.
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Gary Stearman
Let me make a remark, and it may be slightly out of tune at this moment, but watching international television and watching the Israeli television output, what you find is people standing out at night with microphones and pointing the cameras up into the sky and seeing the rockets fly. Here's a rocket, here's a rocket. Everybody's going to the shelters. And that has taken many of us back to Ezekiel 38, because we're looking here and we have an invader. In this case it was Iran. But it looks like somebody else is getting ready, perhaps Turkey and some of the cohorts of Turkey. But what I'm saying in response to what you said. I'm thinking, I'm seeing this on TV right now. I'm seeing rockets come into Israel.
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Mondo Gonzales
Yeah.
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Gary Stearman
And I'm thinking about, do I dare say that we're this far into Bible prophecy that we can say this is happening right now?
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Mondo Gonzales
Well, love him or hate him. We were talking about this the other day, Mondo love him or hate him, and we did in your office just not too long ago. God's got his hand on Donald Trump. And the reason that I say that is because of things that come out of his mouth, the things that he says that caused me to pause. Because what he says isn't really his intention, but he's putting it out there to get people and then he's doing something else. So it's like, what is the something else he's doing? Well, if you know your scriptures, boy, he is. The Lord is using him to pave the way to bring these things to pass. So it's very interesting to me right now, the days in which we live.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
You know, and I will say that, you know, what we aren't saying is that what we're seeing right now in Iran is Ezekiel 38. What we're saying is looking at what the description is here and how it's playing out, it does contribute ultimately to Iran's weakness. And then that where Iran fits, Persia fits in the coalition here. It's not the leader. Some, you know, basically, I think I would imagine that Turkey's the leader. What? Let me summarize something and get your guys thoughts. Because what in my mind, Ezekiel 38 presents this scenario where Israel is alone. Okay, you have Shiva and Dedan making a protest, which most likely is Saudi Arabia, at least supporting the ancient language. So Saudi Arabia or other peoples, maybe the Gulf states, are making this protest about this coalition that's coming up. What prevents Turkey right now from coming and joining with Iran against Israel?
- [26:56]
Mondo Gonzales
The supernatural hand of God. Okay, timing. Yes, timing.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
More practical. You're too spiritual for me for a moment. In a practical sense, what would prevent, in a geopolitical sense right now? Who's the biggest?
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Mondo Gonzales
Well, Israel really has. Has flexed its muscles right now. And I think that that has put Erdogan, Turkey and anybody else who's in the background with designs on Israel, it's given them pause because they understand as the status quo right now is they don't stand a chance.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
But think bigger. Think bigger. Well, I'm leading the witness now in my mind. The United States. Yeah, the United States is the big brother with all of its things out there. If the United States wasn't there, then they would be a little bit more tempted, potentially true. To have a coalition because they could overwhelm little Israel by just sheer numbers. Yeah, but what we see is what. That's why we're saying this isn't happening right now because Israel's alone, but they're not alone right now. And so Ezekiel portrays a future where they get attacked by a huge coalition. Right. All your bands. And Israel will not have the big brother of the United States there. That's kind of where I was thinking.
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Mondo Gonzales
And I agree with that, Mondo. And just one other thought I want to throw in there, talking about this coalition. I think what we're witnessing right now is the fact that Iran cannot take out Israel by itself. It has tried. It has proxies in Hamas and Hezbollah and the Houthis, but they've learned we don't stand a chance. They're going to be driven to be a part of this coalition because they know they can't do it on their own.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
They're obviously eating crow right now. And imagine here where they see another coalition that, that is seeking to come down at a future time and they're like, we want a part of that. Because that revenge that they are looking to. Well, obviously they hate Israel. That would be sweet, sweet revenge if they could jump on another bandwagon led by Turkey or others. They're not going to forget what's happening right now.
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Mondo Gonzales
Yeah, that's now.
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Gary Stearman
Gog says, I'll go up to the land of unwalled villages among the people that are arrested, well, safely. You know, Israel has until very recently dwelt in great safety. Tourism exploded and businesses of various kinds blossomed in Israel. Everybody was saying it's full speed ahead for Israel, except Islam hates the very sight or the thought of Israel. And you go down to the 13th verse here, it says Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish will all the young lions thereof shall. Well, let's just say this group looks and says, can I get something out of this, too? So what we've got here is a picture of a gathering storm. It starts in the north, it comes down, and now it goes to Sheba and Dean and. And there's a gathering of invaders all around Israel. Do we see something like that shaping up?
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Mondo Gonzales
Well, Israel has become by God's grace.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
They don't deserve it. Let's just be honest. They don't deserve it.
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Mondo Gonzales
That's right. They have become a jewel in the midst of Barbarism. And all of those eyes are envious eyes. They're looking to come and capture spoil. They see Israel as very attractive to them and they don't understand what's behind it.
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Dr. Mike Spalding
And the hooks in the jaws as they're drawing us down. Yeah, they get. They get drawn. It's interesting too, that, you know, if you get our magazine, the upcoming magazine, I talk about this particular passage in the sense of without walls. And if you go to Israel today, Israel, there's. There's a very small border wall. And then the rest of it is just fence. But Israel is a. It says unwalled villages. And if you go to any village in Israel, it's not walled. I mean, especially if you think about, in my mind from Ezekiel's day, that in Ezekiel's time, context, right, if you. If your village wasn't walled, you were sitting duck. And so today that's not how we do war. And so the wall, they are. At least that verse is true. They're unwalled villages. But the second thing as I highlight in there is the Hebrew word batak and the Hebrew word shachat, you know, that they will be dwelling. It doesn't say peace. Some versions will say peace. That's not the word shalom. And so it says they'll be dwelling confidently and quietly. Shakat is the idea of, like I would tell my girls, I know some modern Hebrew, and I remember when I was in Israel doing some excavations, there was a woman there who was the leader of some of the younger students. And I would hear her say, shack it, shake it, you know, And I was like, I think I know what that means, you know? And so it's like, shut up. It's quiet. It's be quiet, settle down. And so you have this idea that Israel is going to be dwelling confidently over. Confidently, I would say, especially what we're seeing now. I mean, Israel is. They're flexing, like you said. So they are. Right now, as we watch after this, they're dwelling confidently and relatively. Again, most likely two groups will go back. This idea that this requires some peace, universal peace agreement. I don't necessarily. That's not required by the text that might happen. But so people say, oh, this will never happen until there's comprehensive Abraham accords. I go, I know that's not what the text is saying, but nevertheless, they are dwelling confidently for sure.
- [32:48]
Gary Stearman
I have a question for both of you. Having gone through the verses that we have so far, there's been a thought in the back of my mind all the way can we depend on our interpretation of these verses to the extent that as Christians witnessing to those who do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, can we use this as perhaps a proof that there may not be much time and you'd better make your decision for Christ right now? Or is that overstating it?
- [33:23]
Mondo Gonzales
I don't think it's overstating it, Gary. And I would not hesitate to use it, but I wouldn't be dogmatic about it and say, listen, I'll read this and explain a little bit as I'm reading it. What does that sound like to you? And they're going to say, hmm, sounds like what's going on today? I said, well, that very well could be.
- [33:45]
Dr. Mike Spalding
And the phraseology, the latter years has twice Latter days. Latter years has the idea that, look, there's an endpoint to God's timeline of history and we are at the end of the age. Using Jesus phraseology, we know that the last days, that phrase in the New Testament began at the time of Jesus departure into heaven. So, you know, Hebrews one, one, Peter, I'll talk about the last days. But that's why I don't like using that term, because some of the people who maybe are partial preterists or others, they'll be like, well, we've been in the last days for 2,000 years. Okay, you know what? So I say end of the age because Jesus used that phrase in Matthew 28, Go preach the gospel, right? Make disciples. And I've been with you always until what, the end of the age. So I like that phraseology better. But here there's no doubt, Gary, that when we look at Ezekiel 38 and we look at the players and we look at Islam, boy, it's. It's sure lining up very, very nice with. And it even says an exceedingly great army in chapter 37. That's after they get re. That's after they get brought back into the land in Ezekiel 37. So the idea that this was fulfilled in ancient history just doesn't work on almost every level.
- [34:56]
Gary Stearman
That's right. Well, then I take it that you gave me the go ahead to go out to my neighbors. Have you seen what's happening on TV to Israel today? Have you seen all the rockets flying and all the ships being sunk and people planting mines in the Persian Gulf and so forth and so on and going into all the things that are happening, what's right in the middle tiny little Israel? And it just, by the most amazing coincidence, we have Donald Trump and the Prime Minister of Israel having a very close relationship. Very close, yeah, Very secret relationship because of all the things that are happening. And I can't help but try to put all this together into. You better make your decision for Christ quickly because there may not be much time.
- [35:59]
Dr. Mike Spalding
It is so true. And I think that's really why we're here. That's one of the reasons why we're always here is to get the gospel and to help people understand that scripture, this book is God's word. He predicts the future in advance for us. Read Isaiah 40, 42, 44, 46. God says, I'm the only one that knows the end from the beginning. And this is God's unique book as we know in the world. And before we depart from really the Middle East, I want to, we have to bring up Jeremiah 40:49 because right now missiles are falling Israel, they're going to the shelters, as you mentioned, gary. So Jeremiah 49, a lot of people, there's this discussion on Elam. Maybe if you will provide for us kind of the intro background for somebody who's watching and that might say, what does this have to do. Pastor Dr. With Jeremiah 49 is what we're seeing. Give us the background there.
- [36:53]
Mondo Gonzales
Yeah, so this is from Jeremiah 49, a prophecy against Elam. And so the current conversation out there today, well, was this is in the past. This is historical event that's already happened. And so there's nothing prophetic to be nothing to see here. And, and my comment is not so fast.
- [37:13]
Dr. Mike Spalding
Yeah. Because who is Elam? Like we read Elam there. What's Elam? And give us the background.
- [37:18]
Mondo Gonzales
Yeah, so that's Elam was an ancient territory within what is now modern day Iran. And so people are talking about Persia and how this fits in. And it says in here, what verse is it?
- [37:34]
Dr. Mike Spalding
34.
- [37:35]
Mondo Gonzales
Their bow is broken at the beginning of the reign. So this was of course during the Babylonian conquest and, and exile and all of those things. And so people, yeah, verse 35, I'm going to break the bow of Elam. So some folks that I respect that have been a great benefit to the body of Christ in the prophetic realm have said, well, this was in the past. And I say, no, I think this is yet in the future. We're still going to see this. And it may be what we were talking about right here in Ezekiel 38.
- [38:17]
Dr. Mike Spalding
That's the question in talking about what's happening right now, breaking the bow, the foremost of their might. And so the idea of a bow is a long range Weapon. Right. So a lot of people are asking about whether if you look at Iran's threat, their greatest threat is their missiles. Right now that's the long range threat. It's really interesting. So, and it doesn't say Persia, but Elam again is on the southwest corner of modern day Iran. And the idea then is, and I like what you said because in my research there's a lot of claims that are made that this was fulfilled historically. You look at the Babylonian Chronicles and you're like, there's nothing even in the Babylonian Chronicles that show you decisively that this passage has been fulfilled in history. Look at any commentary, any technical commentary. Now, could it have been fulfilled and we just don't have any historical record? Maybe I'm not opposed to that. But for someone to say, no, it was fulfilled historically. Here's the thing, it does not fit.
- [39:13]
Mondo Gonzales
Right.
- [39:13]
Gary Stearman
May I just interrupt to read one verse? Verse 39. But it shall come to pass in the latter days that I will bring again the captivity of Elam, saith the Lord. Well, I think we're living in the latter days.
- [39:27]
Dr. Mike Spalding
That's another marker I think that is helpful in doing now. Would you say that what we're seeing right now, rockets falling, basically the decapitation or at least the weakening of Iran is a fulfillment of this? It's very possible, but too early to tell.
- [39:53]
Mondo Gonzales
I like that. Yeah, it's very possible. We'll see what happens. We'll see what happens with, with Iran.
- [39:59]
Dr. Mike Spalding
They're not done yet, right?
- [40:01]
Mondo Gonzales
They're not done yet.
- [40:02]
Gary Stearman
I think we're seeing the, the bare beginnings, what it's been four weeks. Almost four.
- [40:07]
Dr. Mike Spalding
Almost four weeks.
- [40:09]
Gary Stearman
That's not a very long.
- [40:10]
Dr. Mike Spalding
I'm supposed to go to Israel, Gary May 1st. I don't think it's going to happen.
- [40:16]
Gary Stearman
I'll call somebody and see if we can get that war stopped.
- [40:19]
Dr. Mike Spalding
Yeah, I got a, I got a trip planned. I was planning on going to Mount Hermon, up to the Lebanon border, you know, now there says Malawi. Got that. I'm like, I don't think I'm going to hang out at the Lebanon border up there.
- [40:29]
Gary Stearman
Yeah, yeah.
- [40:30]
Dr. Mike Spalding
The whole thing is. But it's not done yet. Four weeks in. And so the rest of these things we know any down in Elam or in the southwestern part is where a lot of the nuclear reactors are. And that's been the main issue. Right. The nuclear capabilities of Iran. So what we're seeing, I would say that there's probably been no greater geopolitical developments in my lifetime. That would even connect as closely to what we're seeing here as now. That's for sure. But I'm not ready to say fulfilled, because we're not there yet.
- [41:04]
Gary Stearman
However, and again, we're talking about exegesis here based upon subjectivity, what we think this might be saying. And our desire is that the Lord come back as soon as possible. As Christians, we're looking up, we're watching and waiting, and we're keen to understand things like this as pertaining to us. And we would love to think that they do pertain to us, but we have to be careful. And I sense from you that note of being very, very careful about what we're reading.
- [41:45]
Mondo Gonzales
Try to be cautious.
- [41:46]
Dr. Mike Spalding
That's called wisdom.
- [41:48]
Mondo Gonzales
That's called wisdom because when you're not, you get nailed down and then. And it's like, see, you said that. Yeah, it's like. But to your point, Gary, is there's a whole segment of the church, sadly, that's not tracking with any of this.
- [42:06]
Gary Stearman
Yeah.
- [42:06]
Dr. Mike Spalding
Because they're being told. They're being told.
- [42:08]
Mondo Gonzales
Correct.
- [42:09]
Dr. Mike Spalding
Nothing to see.
- [42:10]
Mondo Gonzales
And we are supposed to be curious. We are supposed to be hearing from the Spirit as we study the Scriptures. That should should be the goal of every believer. But again, a large segment of the body is not doing that without being
- [42:26]
Gary Stearman
dogmatic and looking at the scriptures that we've been talking about in this session. I'm excited. I can't escape that feeling that something is about to happen. And as a believer in Lord Jesus Christ and one who looks toward the rapture of the church, I can't help but try to see something there. But I have to watch it. Right. I have to be careful. I have to be grammatically correct when I interpret it, historically correct. And that's a real responsibility.
- [43:01]
Mondo Gonzales
Well, the Spirit of God will not lead us into error, but we can run ahead.
- [43:08]
Dr. Mike Spalding
That's true.
- [43:09]
Mondo Gonzales
So we need to be careful about allowing the Spirit to take us on this. This journey of understanding the Scriptures. And that's why conversations like this are so important and valuable.
- [43:20]
Gary Stearman
Well, I've enjoyed this a great deal. It's very exciting to me. If I went through these same verses tomorrow, it was very exciting then, I'm sure, because we are looking for the Lord.
- [43:32]
Mondo Gonzales
We are. Amen.
- [43:34]
Gary Stearman
Well, Mondo, do you have any closing remarks?
- [43:37]
Dr. Mike Spalding
Nope. I. You. You guys said it. Well, I'm just. I appreciate it.
- [43:41]
Gary Stearman
Well, it's been great. I. I've enjoyed sitting here with these two gentlemen who know a great deal more than I do about the fine points of exegesis. I'm. I'm a good listener. I'm a good listener, and I hope you have been a good listener. And I pray that the Lord will touch your heart, open your eyes, open your mind to the prophetic scriptures that we have in the Bible. And we just pray that in Jesus name.