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What the Dead Sea Scrolls Reveal About Jesus | Doug Van Dorn | The Week in Bible Prophecy
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The Week in Bible Prophecy, a Prophecy Watchers podcast.
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Hello everyone, Mondo Gonzalez here in studio with Doug Van Dorn. And welcome to the podcast today. And we are going to be talking about his brand new book, which again, I think is just so phenomenal. Talking about a conspiracy. We love conspiracy here. I know most of you, do you listen to this channel, but this is a conspiracy that actually is real. And he proves it in his brand new book, the Battle for the Bible's Truth. And this is we're going to be getting, getting in to discuss the a second century conspiracy by the Jewish rabbis against Jesus Christ, which no surprise on that. And we'll unpack that here in a minute. But I do want to remind everybody about a couple things. Consider joining US in August, August 22nd through the 29th, we are going to be going on a prophecy cruise to Alaska. And bucket list item, we're going to see God's glory. It's pretty phenomenal. I've got to go one other time, I think for a prophecy cruise. It was great. And again August 22nd through 29th, go to prophecywatchers.com check it out. Doug, welcome.
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Yes, sir.
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And for those in our audience that we've been at this table before, but it's been a couple years, kind of introduce yourself to our audience. Who are you and what do you do and why should people listen to you?
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A
I don't know why they should listen to me. I have no idea. For some reason some people do. But that's good, I guess. I've been Pastor pastored for 25 years, actually in some ways for 30 years because I was a youth pastor before that. I still don't know how I ever got to be a pastor. It just kind of happened, I guess that's God's will for my life. And yeah, same church for 25 years in the Boulder area called the Reformed Baptist Church of Northern Colorado. And yeah, I've started writing books 15 years ago, something like that. Actually 17 years ago, first book on baptism. I wrote a book and been doing a lot of podcasting and just, you know, I think I have a unique perspective on the way I approach most subjects that I think through. And people like to hear it. So I keep talking about the things.
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B
Talk about your, your podcast. Where do people find that at?
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So the one I'm doing right now is called Reformed Fringe and that's on YouTube, it's on Apple, whatever. So we're doing both the video and just audio. It's everywhere you can find podcasts. We actually have A community called the Reformed Fringe. Just ReformedFringe.com, which is where I'm so I'm a Reformed Christian. I'm trying to bridge this weird gap between Reformed people who are known for they really love theology but not fringy stuff, and then the fringy world, which really doesn't know a lot of theology, but they love the fringy stuff. And I am kind of right in the middle and I think that both sides need each other. And so I am offering a community on the Internet free from trolls and free from the crazy people that are out there. And it's been fun and it's a good place to kind of come and learn about both of these things. Feel free to talk about the weird stuff, but also you'll get some good theology in the meantime, you know, you
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are my brother from another mother, because that's my life is. I love precision, I love theology. I mean, I guess if I was to define myself I would call myself a systematic theologian because that's just, that's where my brain is. But then, but yet throughout my life I've always been drawn to, to fringe. You know, I mean it's just jfk. Did we go to the moon? You name it. Everything was like oh, Bigfoot, you know, all the whole.
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Again, you've seen In Search of with Leonard Nimoy way back in the day and I just found out, I guess Shatner's been doing one on History Channel for like seven years and I didn't know about it until just recently and I'm like, this show is awesome. And 95 year old William Shatner taught. I mean the way he delivers his performance is just awesome. So fantastic. I'm so glad he's still around and
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B
he's, he's doing it. I, I've seen many of those episodes. You're like, oh man, good job. And as you know, the topics are, are fun and. But here, you know, again, you, you obviously knew Michael Heiser. You know, there's a, there's a whole group or all the stuff that, that Heiser brought out which is so important. And again, you don't have to agree with Heiser on everything in order to appreciate the stuff that he did, especially with his PhD dissertation kind of blowing the world out of what I see this very sanitized view of the Bible, a non supernatural view of the Bible and he's like, can we just get back to the Bible? And of course he got his PhD in the old Testament in Wisconsin, which is, was great. And but he's, I think he, he's reminding people and he'll, he'll say this, you've heard it. He goes, look, I have nothing original. I, I just the stuff that was in the academic literature for, for centuries in the Old Testament world, my, my academic background's in the Old Testament. And, and so to see all that, he goes, I just brought it out. And, and he, he kind of, he certainly tied it together. I think he's being humble there. But so within this comes your book. On the back of the new book, you say this is probably the most important work that you've written. What makes you say that?
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Because I think it's true. That's a simple of it. But it's because it exposes a plot that helps me make sense of how it is that you can have a modern day Jewish person. And this goes back now 1900 years. Jewish person that is essentially Unitarian in their belief about God.
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Explain for people that don't believe.
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So a Unitarian would believe that there's one God in one person. So there's no such thing as a godhead.
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Very Islamic.
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Yeah, very Islamic, very deistic. I mean, there's all kinds of Unitarian religions that are out there, but Judea, modern Judaism, that's what it is. And yet there's all this scholarship that Mike was helping people, acquainting them with that shows from Alan Seagal's book Two Powers in Heaven to Daniel Boyaren, who's over, I think he's in Berkeley or something like that, writing on the Gospel of John as a Jew, talking about how the first century Jews had an ability to understand that there was essentially a Godhead. Now it might not have been as fully developed as Christians in trinitarianism, but they call it binitarianism. So bi would be two instead of tri, which is three. So you'd have two persons of a godhead idea that was very comfortable for a lot of the rabbis to believe this. And then you, you find authors like John in his gospel, who, you know, I heard that John is writing to proto Gnostics, Christian heretics, that kind of a thing. And it's like, no, actually he was writing to Jews, his fellow Jews, about an Old Testament reality about Jesus that we have lost and so we can't even get the setting of his gospel right. That's wild to me. So I think it's that this is so important because it explains to me why Judaism shifted because there was a deliberate plot to subvert Christianity, which was originally just kind of considered a Jewish heresy and not its own religion or even just the Jewish sect.
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It was a Jewish sect for sure. Even in Roman.
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Yeah, not even a heresy. It was just. Okay, so that's what some of the Jews think, is that this is their Messiah. And then it gives you the tools and the power to be able to show a Jewish unbeliever from their own scripture what happened and why it is that they're actually not believing what they used to believe.
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They used to believe. You know, just for those that you know, the clarity here is that in the first century we know this from the Dead Sea Scrolls and even primarily from Josephus. But you have the Essenes, which were everywhere, not just down in the Qumran. And then you have, you know, Joseph is talking about the Sadducees and their particular theology and philosophy, as well as the Pharisees. You might, if you throw in the Zealots or the Herodians, it's very diverse. But 70 AD comes, the Sadducees are eliminated, the temple's destroyed, the Essenes scatter. And so you have this group, the Pharisees, which certainly they were rabbis. Jesus himself was called a rabbi. But you have the Pharisee group, which of course were primarily responsible for, for killing Jesus and persecuting Paul. Many of the Pharisees got saved. We see that in Acts 15 and others passages. So it's not. This isn't a wholesale condemnation, but after 70 A.D. talk about the. They shift over to, you know, today you'd call it Yamnia, you know, on the coast, it's post 70 A.D. they get an opportunity. The Roman government allows them to have this non Jerusalem centered community. And there they begin to establish this, their own monolithic view of Judaism now turning into rabbinic viewpoints. But they also need to say, hey, we're still dealing with these Christians. Well, these Jewish, remember these are messianic Jews. We're still dealing with them. But we need to find a way to subvert or diminish the persuasiveness of this. And so they began to, I would say, have their own canonization kind of program, their document, which books do we have, which is, which is authoritative. So with that as a backdrop, then how does that play into the, the, the intentions which again, this conspiracy and, and maybe even again, take some time here, bring up the lxx, what that even means. Imagine, you know, give us the background there of the timing of all this.
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Well, the timing is not coincidental. They've lost their temple in 70 A.D. and so they're Scattered. And they're not able to have centralized worship, they're not able to offer sacrifices, all the things that they did. And then furthermore, there's revolts that are taking place later in the early second century that's just, I mean, it's splitting and ripping the entire religion apart. There's a diaspora, so they're all over the place. These guys are able to have a centralized power, control. But like you said, there's all these Christians. And I think probably part of it also had to do with the fact that it wasn't just Jews converting. It also starts to be Gentiles too, once Paul goes out. And so here you have, as Paul talks about in his letters, out of two people, you have one people that are made, which are those who are in Christ. There is no distinction between Jew and gentile for them. And, and like this is a major threat not just to the religion in general, but to their power and persuasiveness over the people.
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So, and, and I would say let me just add this and over the understanding of the Old Testament and over the other, because you have this other group, these Christian groups now saying, hey, that's our book too now. Well, of course there's Jews and Gentiles, but they're saying, no, our New Testament scriptures are based on that book. And they obviously.
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Yeah, exactly, because like you said, it's a, it was a Jewish sect. And so I call the New Testament a commentary on the inspired commentary on the Old Testament. It's all it is.
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Yep.
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It is how you're supposed to be reading the Old Testament. This is not just words drop from heaven that all of a sudden magically people just start believing things that are just being made up by the disciples. No, they're quoting the Old Testament all the time because this is their authority for where they get what they believe. So. And it's not. I get that there's gentiles that are, you know, helping to develop the theology, but in the first century Judaism, you had disagreements within, within Judaism itself over the nature of a Godhead, over the nature of what, what Segal called two powers in heaven. In fact, the rabbis called it two powers in heaven.
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It wasn't their language.
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Yeah, I mean, yeah, they're using the language. And so you had, I think Sehgal says that it was kind of a undercurrent and it wasn't the mainstream to believe in two powers, but it was an undercurrent that was very powerful that a lot of people said, yeah, this makes a lot of Sense.
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Let's define the two powers for a moment. I mean, unpack that just a hair.
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Yeah, so two powers, it's a. You use the language of power instead of gods. So you're not saying two gods because we're Jews, we only believe in one God.
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You can't say that.
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Right, but you don't want to say gods because if you say gods now, that lessens the second power to some sort of a created entity. And the problem is, like, how do you talk about the way that this second figure in your Hebrew scripture is being talked about? Well, you can use the biblical language, like the name of God or the word of God or Yahweh. Sometimes he's just called Yahweh and you'll have two Yahwehs in one verse, or sometimes you have two Elohim in one verse. They're both clearly the same God. And so this was very confusing to the rabbis. And they're like, what are we to make of this? And some said, well, it's a mistake. And some said, just move along, don't pay attention to it. And some said, there's something to see here. We actually think that God is revealing himself in two powers, both good powers. They're equal. They're equal. This isn't Manichaeism. It's not Zoroastrianism. It's not dualism with good and evil battling it out or something. And that was a big discussion happening in the first century.
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So just so people understand that you have Jews Orthodox, not in the modern orthodox sense, but you have good Jews in the time recognizing, hey, we have Yahweh and we have the angel of Yahweh. The angel. Lord, that guy, that guy seems to be all. He seems to have just as much authority. He's claiming things that Yahweh said. And so they're recognizing, wow, we can't get around our own scriptures. The scriptures teach. And that's what Alan Seagal in his book the Two Powers of Heaven, there's a few other books too that describe this from a non Christian perspective. This is just what the Jews were doing. So there's this discussion, and then here enters Jesus right in the midst of these discussions that are happening, claiming to be ultimately this second figure. This second figure, the second figure.
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And using language like this, in Genesis 15:1, it says, the word of God came to Abram in a vision. There's something wrong with this sentence because words that we're using right now don't come to my vision. You do. Because you have body, but your words are coming to my ears. They're not coming to my eyes. So how can the Word come to your vision? Well, there's. Because it's a second power. Here's another good one. This is Isaiah 30:27. Behold, the name of the Lord comes from afar, burning with his anger, and in thick rising smoke his lips are full of fury. The name is a him. What?
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Personify.
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Yeah, I think it was more than personification. It's like. It's a literal personification. Yeah, there's a technical term for this, like a subsistence or something. Like there's something that's. That's a. It's personal. So you. You find John's gospel actually writing about this very thing. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Well, what word? It's not some Gnostic, Platonic, dualistic Greek thing. It's the person that was in Genesis 15:1 who came to Abram in a vision. Or. You'll see that John goes on to talk about how the true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. That's talking about the incarnation. He was in the world. That's talking about before the incarnation, and the world was made through him. That's Colossians 1. Language. The world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. When. When he was a little kid walking around Galilee. No. In the old covenant. But. And then. Listen to this. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name.
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Mm.
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Name. The name of God comes from afar, burning with his anger. And John will use language like the Word, the name, the glory, the arm, all kinds of things in his Gospel that these two powers, rabbis, were saying. Well, that's the second person. And what he's saying is. Yeah, and now he's incarnated, and he's this person right here in front of you named Jesus of Nazareth. He's all of those.
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Yep.
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And he's God. And so this, you know, imagine the political context, imagine the religious context now in the second century, you have the power within you to control very tightly the reception of the Hebrew text, but you don't have any power over the Greek text. And that's where you said, define the lxx. That's just shorthand for Roman numeral 70. And that stands for the 70 translators that translated the Hebrew Scripture into Greek in Alexandria, in Egypt. And this had been disseminated far and wide across the Roman Empire. And so it's in Greek. And so now Gentiles can read this too, as well as Greek speaking Jews. And the New Testament authors are quoting from the Septuagint probably more often than they quote from the Hebrew text.
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I mean, I've read 80% of the time.
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Yeah, exactly. It's very high. And so how do you control this? All of a sudden? We're losing hundreds, thousands of our own rabbis and priests to this Christianity thing. We've lost our worship center. We've lost our ability to worship God the way he commands us to. We're losing our power. What do we do? And so a concerted effort was made to change the interpretation and sometimes the words and sometimes sentences were added or deleted from their own text and from the translations of texts that they commissioned in order to change the way people had understood passages universally since they were originally written.
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Yeah, you know, just for, I want to provide a little context here in the sense that when you, when a person opens their Bible up, let's say they're reading, fine, they're reading the King James, let's just go back. They open up the King James, they go to the New Testament. Maybe they're reading the book of Hebrews and they're going, oh, okay, I'm reading the book of Hebrews. Of course we know the 2 test was written in Greek and the Old Testament translated in 1611 basically finalized. The Old Testament was translated from the Hebrew. It's from the Hebrew Masoretic text. The oldest text we have is basically a thousand A.D. the Leningrad Codex. So that's, that's not very, that's not very long ago. So the, the King James Tranter, Geneva, you know, even go back to Tyndale that they were looking at these Hebrew texts that were basically late. So they translate the Old Testament in from Hebrew. It wasn't translated from the Greek Old Testament, so they were translated from the Hebrew. Like let's do the Hebrew going back to Jerome even. Right. Use Hebrew for the Old Testament, which again makes sense. But then I just encourage people that if you read the book of Hebrews and in Hebrews Chapter one, it's talking about Jesus being superior to the angels. And then it's quoting Deuteronomy 32 and you see the quote, let all the angels of God worship him. I encourage you find the link right there. Deuteronomy 32, go to your Old Testament and read that and you're going to, and I did this as a New Christian. So I'm like, wait a minute, why is there a difference here? I'm reading this quote, but when I go back to looking in my Old Testament different. And so explain what I was experiencing there.
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Yeah, that's a great. It's one of the. It's one of the central texts that they were manipulating. This is Deuteronomy 32. 43. Yeah. So what you're pointing out is the fact that Hebrews. It's amazing because they didn't have control over Hebrews. That's a Christian text. They had control over Deuteronomy in the Hebrew, but not in the Greek. Because there were so many copies of the Greek, they couldn't do anything about it. So when you read the Hebrew, today's Hebrew Masoretic text, it will say, rejoice, O nations, with his people, for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and he will render vengeance on his adversaries. Okay, nothing to see here.
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Yeah, they're dead.
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So where in the world is Hebrews getting that quote about the angels? Well, when you go and you read the Dead Sea Scrolls, it says, rejoice with him, O heavens. Bow down to him, all gods. And then there is that. Become all gods. In the Septuagint, the Greek translation, rejoice, you heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him. Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him. That completely drops out of the Hebrew text. Gone. Vanished. They literally erased it from their own Bible.
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Okay, this is what I want people to understand. Here you have in the New Testament, Hebrews is an inspired book by the Holy Spirit. It's quoting an ancient text here, in this case, the Septuagint version. And then when you go. Even if you're. Maybe you're not even reading, maybe you read Hebrew. Fine, read Hebrew. You go to this masoretic text from 900 AD. You know, the Aleppo Codex is, you know, mostly there. That's the oldest. Okay. You go there and you're like, I don't see that. And then you open up the Dead Sea Scrolls and you're like, whoa. If I compare the Hebrew, Dead Sea Scrolls and the old Septuagint, Greek, those match up. But when I get to this 9th, 10th century Hebrew, Masoretic, Jewish, rabbinic text, it's gone. And you go, what happened? What's the original? Well, certainly the older is better, and the older matches with the New Testament, which we trust.
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Yeah, that's a major point on this one. So I'm glad you actually used this verse, because we actually have an inspired New Testament. Use of angel, which originally would have been Elohim in the Hebrew. And there's no way, if you're a Christian, sorry, you cannot argue your way out of that unless you want to deny the infallibility of the Book of Hebrews.
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Yep, 100%. So what, you know, for those listening, what Doug is showing in this book, which is so phenomenal, is, hey, everybody, pay attention. This is just one example, and you unpack a whole bunch. This is just one example that these rabbinic Jews, because of their hatred for Jesus, again, we're not, this is not anti Semitism. We're talking about a very specific group for control, for power, for other reasons they chose. We have got to minimize. We have got to remove things from their own Hebrew text for the sake of, like you said, Judaism. And to minimize the power of the message that Jesus certainly fulfilled. And we're going to forever Change this. That second century, let's just say, was solidified in 200 A.D. from that point forward, anybody that would read the Hebrew Old Testament as a Jew to be mostly Jews, I imagine they are now not going to see.
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Right. They will have no idea that it ever was anything different. And in fact, that actually gets into. Into how much you can trust the Scripture because they knew, and rightly so, that the rabbis would never do anything to alter the text. This was their entire mission, was to preserve the text as faithfully as they could. And we know from like the Isaiah scroll at the Dead Sea Scrolls, comparing that to what we have in modern Isaiah, it's almost exactly word for word. So it is incredibly trustworthy, which all, all that does, it's the trustworthiness of the Hebrew text that we have today, that is what makes this all the more powerful. Because when you see that they did this with at least four different sons of God texts in Deuteronomy 32, 43, Deuteronomy 32, 8, Genesis 6, 4, Psalm 82, verse 1. And there's only 10 of these in all of the Old Testament. It's like something, something is afoot here, right?
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B
Yep. And so, so again, the what, what Doug has done and again, which, you know what, I've, I've read other, you know, books because you go back to talk about Trifo or, you know, Justin Martyr, to Trypho the genius. Yeah, because Justin makes a claim and he makes this claim and you're like, that's been there for a long time. I mean, you're talking 150ad he makes this claim and you're like, I imagine many Church Fathers, like, what, what, what? You know, what's he saying? Or anybody that's reading him, like, what do they do about the text? So he. He calls them out. He calls, again, Trypho the Jew out. At least whether it's fiction or not, nevertheless, he makes his claim. Talk about what he accused them of.
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Yeah, he's not the only one. There's several Church Fathers around the same time they did this. Justin's so interesting because he's one of our very earliest Church Fathers. Like, we label them disciples, apostles and then Apostolic Fathers, which are, like people that knew them and then everybody else is a Church father. And that goes on for hundreds of years. Justin's one of our very, very first Church Fathers. And he says to his opponent, in his apologetic defense of Christianity, his Jewish opponent, your rabbis have absolutely expunged many passages out of the Septuagint version, as I would have you to know. Still, I will argue with you, even from those received passages, which you still allow, which, if your rabbis had understood, be assured they would have expunged them, too.
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B
I mean, this is like mic drop. Okay. He's saying so crystal clear that even this early. Yeah. So that shows you kind of the timeframe that again, when you see some of the Jewish work, that, again, if you go to Yavne, Yamnia, whatever, there are different ways you can pronounce the languages. On the coast just south of Caesarea, Maritama, there you have this Jewish group that is now again solidifying their religion because, again, as you said, it's chaos. So even then, this is 150. Even there, Justin is able to recognize, hey, when I'm looking at your Hebrew text and I'm looking at the Septuagint or maybe an older Hebrew text like the Dead Sea Scrolls as an example, that new text, they've expunged some things out of there.
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A
They've been taken away. They've been erased. And that's wild because Justin's born in 100 A.D. and he, you know, he's flourishing. 151, 60. And so he's like, this happened a while ago.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Now, how far back do you go? Well, I think you have hints of it even in the first century that Paul knew something was afoot when he's talking to Timothy and Titus in Ephesus. Now, Ephesus is a place that tried to kill him. And it was always the rabbis in every synagogue that he went to. It's not the Gentiles who were trying. It's the rabbis in those cities. That are so angry about what he's saying. And he goes, I want you to beware of Jewish myths, about Jewish myths and genealogies. Effectively, he brings two things up there, and we talked about this on the TV show, that the myths there are not talking about Greek mythology or Nordic mythology or something like that. That doesn't even make sense. What kind of a person would. What kind of a Christian would take Thor seriously and Odin as a threat? Because he says that these things are direct threats to the Gospel of Jesus. And so. Well, what's he talking about? Well, we know that there. That there were other problems not just with sons of God texts, but genealogy. Genealogy texts like the sons of Shem, the son of Noah. He gives a whole Genesis. What is that?
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B
5 and 10.
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5 and 10, yeah. So Genesis 10 gives you this list of all the sons of Shem down to Abram, and it tells you how long they lived when they had their kid.
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B
And Genesis 11.
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11, that's right. 10 is this table of nations. And. And so you find that when you add up the numbers that the Hebrew text gives you a certain length of time that allows, when you draw it on a chart, that Shem himself, the son of Noah, to actually be living in the days of Abraham. I can remember when I was a kid going, that's amazing.
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B
That's amazing. Oh, I thought the same. That's so cool.
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A
It's a here on my graph, right in my study Bible, so it's gotta be true. But then you go and you read the Septuagint and you find out, wait a minute, 650 years of history are gone, Magically erased from the text. They just don't exist. Which means that Shem actually died hundreds of years before Abraham was ever born. Well, why does that matter? Why would somebody do that? That's not an accident that you have the number at 1,000 in six verses in a row and it just magically disappears. Well, there was actually a very nefarious reason why they would do this. And it's because there was all this belief, and we know this from the Dead Sea Scrolls, that Melchizedek, who Abraham meets and gives a tenth of everything he has to which Hebrews spends three chapters talking about this guy and says things like, hey, he's without father and mother. He's without genealogy. He's without End of Days. And you read that and you go, it can't possibly mean what it says it means. It must just mean the Bible didn't record his genealogy. Oh, no, that's not what these Jews thought. They thought that he was actually the angel of the Lord and was God himself. There's a verse in Isaiah 60:1 that talks that Jesus actually opens his ministry in Nazareth, opens the scroll of Isaiah to Isaiah 60:1 and says, the year of Yahweh's favor is now upon you. In the Dead Sea scroll, it reads, the year of Melchizedek's favor is upon you. What? So the rabbis knew that Christians were claiming that Melchizedek is the angel of the Lord and that he incarnated as Jesus Christ and became one of us. And so we gotta stop that nonsense. Everybody knows that's not even possible anyway, so. Oh, I got an idea. Why don't we drop 650 years? Or adds. Yeah, remove. Remove 650 years from our history. That way we can say that who would be a good person to be Melchizedek? Shem? What better person? He's the son of Noah and our great ancestor in the line of Abraham, the Semitic people.
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B
Right.
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And next thing you know, all of a sudden a new myth is born, which is that Melchizedek is actually Shem. And how to get there through a messing with genealogies. What does Paul say? Don't listen to Jewish myths and fables about genealogies. About genealogies like, wow, that was. That was happening in the 50s A.D. so if you have a hundred years to let this kind of work its way into your. You've thought about it a long time and now you have the power. And so you just go about doing it.
- [32:48]
B
Yep. I encourage anybody to get out. You know, you can find the. Usually it's the lxx, Brenton translation, 1850. And just get out the English and look at Genesis 5 and 11 and then get out your normal, your normal Bible. Just get your ESV out. And then look at, in. In at the numbers and you'll see, oh, Adam was 230. And in the Septuagint, oh, he's a 130 year. And then you see it' 100, 100, 100. Wait. 230. 130. And then all of them are dropped by at exactly 100. And you think, how is that? Well, the interesting thing about it is if you go to Josephus, Josephus matches with the Septuagints. And so you have. And you have other versions like the Samaritan, Pentateuch, it agrees. So you have three. You have Josephus, the Samaritan, Pentateuch, and you have basically the Septuagint, all three of Those are in agreement. They're ancient texts. And then you have the Lone Ranger out here, which is the rabbinic text. And they have removed things in order to fulfill this idea that, again, Shem met Abraham, he could not. And if you look at it like as a kid, or not as a kid, but as a young believer, same thing. I drew it out. I drew it out and it fits really, really nice. And then you're like, well, wait a minute. Shem lives way over here and you circle down. But if you follow the Septuagint, he died in the next generation just smoothly. They all died very consistently and normally. But that is undone now. One of the things that you bring up kind of a subtitle here is, and I don't think we established it just quite how does the sons of God play into this? Because you talk about, again, going the root Here is Genesis 6. How does the sons of God language matter here? And in this conspiracy, so to speak, right?
- [34:42]
A
So this was one of the main attacks. So they. They went after certain claims like the virgin birth or the piercing in the hands. But this was kind of a grouping of texts that they could kind of work with all at once, I think. And the reason why is because when you go to your Old Testament and you read the. The 10 or so accounts of the sons of God, you find that every one of those fits a heavenly identity, an angelic identity, supernatural. Supernatural. And we know this from Job, Job one and two, that the sons of God are going with Satan into heaven. That's not humans. They're clapping with joy and singing and shouting at God, creating the foundations of the earth before Adams ever made. That's not humans. So everybody knew. And this was a. We know this as well. There's been dissertations. A guy named Yap Dodens did a dissertation, dissertation on every known commentary among the Jews and the Christians on Genesis 6. And without exception, every single Jewish source that we have into the second century believe the sons of God are angels. And we have like 20 different texts, huge. And in the church, it's every single Christian, without Exception until about 380 A.D. believes that they are angels. So that's why it matters, because the language, sons of God, everybody knows that they're heavenly beings, angelic beings. And then along comes Jesus, who all of a sudden starts calling himself the Son of God, the Son of God. And the devils start calling him the Son of God. And Jesus quotes Psalm 82, 6, One of these sons of God passages, and he says, doesn't your own scripture say that you are gods. And people completely misinterpret that, as if Jesus is somehow calling the Pharisees gods. It's.
- [36:46]
B
Yeah.
- [36:46]
A
No, it's not. That's not what it's saying. He's actually quoting Psalm 82, which says, I said you are gods, all of you. And if you keep reading, it says, sons of the Most High. That's sons of God. Language. Who's he talking to? Not talking to humans. He's talking to the people. In verse one, which is a heavenly divine council scene, God takes a stand in the divine council. The ESV says, how do we know it's heavenly? Go read Psalm 89 and you'll find out. This is an assembly in the sky.
- [37:18]
B
Who in the sky, exactly?
- [37:20]
A
Anybody who denies the. The divine council at this point. Like, I just don't know what to say to you because you're completely ignoring your own text because you're just that mad about the fact that God would have heavenly beings that somehow are rulers, which even that doesn't make sense. He uses human beings to rule for him. So why is that a threat to his sovereignty? It's not. So you have these beings called sons of God and gods. And Jesus comes along and says, yeah, if those guys can be called this, how much more me, because I am one with the Father.
- [37:57]
B
Yep.
- [37:57]
A
Like, it doesn't make any sense for him to go, look, guys, you're a God, I'm a God. Can't we all just get along?
- [38:02]
B
Yeah, exactly. There would be no threat there. And they turned around to kill him.
- [38:06]
A
To kill him.
- [38:06]
B
And it was right. It was. See, and right before that, this is John 10:34. This is probably one. This is probably one of the most misinterpreted, I think, ever in church history of his quotes of the Old Testament and his argument. And right before that, he said, why are you. For what work are you going to try to kill me for? And they said, not for your works.
- [38:26]
A
Right.
- [38:26]
B
But you being a man, make yourself equal with God. So they understood clearly. He was saying, I and the Father are one. I'm part of this. I'm part of this. I'm supernatural. I came and look at his language. I came at John 8. He's speaking this over and over with them. Hey, where I come, where I'm going? They're like, where's he going? Where's he going? And you know John 3, right? Only the Son of man. Like, it can come from down and up. So John is amazing what he's preparing. John has a whole bunch of preparation in John 1:1, John 1:14, John 1:18, all these passages, John 3. I mean, John 1:18, I would love to get into that one day, but that is phenomenal language there. And you think. And then. But so by the time we get to John 10, if we've read the Gospel of John, we go, oh, well, this, this has been here. He's been prepping us for 10 chapters to get to this point, but yet people miss it.
- [39:20]
A
Right. And why this is the key. This is another reason why this is so important, because it's not just Jews who are affected, it's Christians. And they don't recognize that they have actually adopted antichrist, rabbinical revisionist history of the Bible. And they've adopted it as if that's what it always said. And so why would Christians interpret it this way? Well, it's because the Jews, the Jewish rabbis messed with Psalm 81, 82. 1. The Greek says, God takes his place in the midst of the gods. He judges the gods.
- [40:00]
B
That's the Greek Septuagint.
- [40:01]
A
That's the Greek Septuagint. Here's the Nas, reflecting the Masoretic text. God takes a stand in his own congregation. He judges in the midst of the rulers. Now, here's the deal. What's wild to me is that they didn't, in this case, they didn't alter the text like they did in, say, Deuteronomy 32, 43, where they actually erased an entire sentence. They had changed the interpretation of the text. And what they said is, oh, well, yeah, the word Elohim, that he takes his place and he judges the gods. That doesn't mean gods. That means human rulers. And it's like, where does that come from? And so they point to, like, two or three obscure passages in Exodus.
- [40:48]
B
Yeah. 21.
- [40:48]
A
Exodus 32 has been debunked a hundred years ago by Cyrus Gordon.
- [40:52]
B
Yep.
- [40:52]
A
Not to mention it's debunked by Deuteronomy 15. And. And they just make it up out of, out of nowhere. And they say Elohim actually means the rulers. And so you go to the Brown Driver Briggs Lexicon and you'll see that the first. That blows my mind away. Yeah. They said the first definition of Elohim is human rulers or judges. And you're like, there's like 3,000 uses of Elohim in the Old Testament twice. Maybe, maybe it means humans. And those are disputed. And you're going to tell me that's the first definition of a word that tells you.
- [41:28]
B
And I remember that in 2nd Corinthians 3. Paul is discussing the nature of the Gospel and he says that there's scales, there's blinders on the Jewish people until they see Christ. And so when people say, well, the rabbis say this and the rabbis say that, and I go, why would you care? I'm not trying to be mean, but why would you care what the rabbis say about anything? They are without Jesus. They have scales. It says it crystal clear. If you don't put Jesus, you don't recognize Jesus Messiahship, you're not going to see. I mean, you're blind. But yet we're building. So the church has taken this bdb, same thing where they've taken this rabbinic view, incorporated it into the church, and then later they've incorporated it into the linguistics of, of Hebrew again, like you said with Elohim. You know, like, why would, why would they, why would they take this, why would they embrace it? And that's, that's, to me, is one of the most fascinating things I want you to do. One more is, let's talk about Psalm 110.
- [42:40]
A
Okay.
- [42:41]
B
Because Psalm 110 is another place where Melchizedek appears. Yeah.
- [42:46]
A
It appears only in three passages. Hebrews, what, 5 through 7, Genesis 14, and Psalm 110. There is it.
- [42:54]
B
That's it. But show the difference here because between what we'd understand in the, in the Hebrew Masoretic text, the rabbinic text. I like saying rabbinic text because that's helpful.
- [43:05]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [43:07]
B
The Hebrew rabbinic text. Which again, if. And I encourage people, open up your Bible. You know, it doesn't matter. Almost all of the English translations are based on the Hebrew Rabbinic text. And read Psalm 110, follow along and then we're going to read in the Septuagint.
- [43:22]
A
Yeah. So Psalm 110:1, one of the most quoted verses in the New Testament about Jesus. In fact, Jesus himself quotes this.
- [43:32]
B
Yeah.
- [43:33]
A
The Lord says to my Lord, now this is, first of all, this is one of the superscriptions make a difference because this is a psalm of David. So David says, the Lord says to my Lord, wait, David has two lords. How can that be? And then sit at my right hand until I make the enemies your enemies, your footstool. Okay, so this is well established New Testament. This is Jesus, verse 4. The Lord has sworn that's the first Lord and will not change his mind. You, who's you? That's the second Lord. You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. Hebrews uses that like Four times to say, yeah, that's talking about Jesus and Melchizedek. And we've already talked about him, so we need to rehash that. But verse three is the one nobody brings up. And it's so wild because here's the esv, which is reflecting the Rabbinic text. Your people will offer themselves freely on the day of your power in holy garments from the womb of the morning. The dew of your youth will be yours. Okay, not sure. So what? Okay, here's the Greek. With you is Dominion. That's Daniel 7, Son of Man.
- [44:51]
B
Language.
- [44:52]
A
In the day of your power. Whose power? The Lord's power. Melchizedek's power. You. Your power in the splendor of your saints. What? Your. Your saints. Your. Your people. They're your people. I have begotten you from the womb before the morning star. I did not just read that in my esv.
- [45:17]
B
No.
- [45:17]
A
Or my nas. There's no begotten from my niv. What happened? The rabbis changed the text. And the earliest Christians knew this. And they. This is one of those, I think Justin's. Like, if they would have known about this one, they would, you know, that kind of a thing. Like. And I don't know when it dropped out or when it changed, but this is Psalm 2. Language. And that's a Son of God text. The Lord, you know, the Lord said, what is. What is that? How. Let's get it exactly right. Psalm 2.
- [45:47]
B
And as you go there, remember, this brings us Back to John 3:16. You know where you have again, kind of at least begotten language. Begotten language.
- [45:57]
A
It's coming right from here. It's coming right from Psalm 110. 3 Septuagint. So Psalm 2, I will tell of the decree. The Lord said to me, you are my son, Son of God. Today I have begotten you. That's exactly what Psalm 110:3 says. This is where the church gets the eternal generation of the Son, the eternal begottenness of the Son. How else are you going to say that you are begotten and yet not made, other than say, I begot you before the morning star. Who's the morning star? Lucifer. Like before him. You're eternally begotten. You are my eternally begotten Son. And here's what. So this is the link between these two Psalms, the Psalm 82 and Psalm 8, or 2 to 8, ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage and the ends of your earth your possession. Well, Psalm 82, which is what we've been saying is kind of the epicenter for so much trouble here is only eight verses long. And at the very end it says, arise, O God. Who's God? It's the Son of God who Jesus is claiming, I'm that guy. I'm that guy to the Pharisees. And they know what he's claiming. And he goes, judge the earth, for you shall inherit all the nations. They know exactly what Jesus is saying. It's not just that he's claiming that there are entities out there that are called sons of God, that aren't them, that are heavenly. And it's not even just that. And this is big. Just that he is claiming to be one with the Father. It's also the promise is that he's claiming I am the one who's going to inherit all the nations. And there's not a doggone thing that you can do about it.
- [47:38]
B
And if you add in. See, again, it's amazing how often we go back to the Gospel of John. So if you were to take John 5, I believe it's verse 22, where Jesus says, the Father has committed all judgment to the Son. And you go, oh. And then here in Psalm 82, Arise and judge. You couldn't miss that connection where Jesus is saying, by the way, all judgment and the nations go Back to Psalm 82. I'm telling you, the Father has committed all judgment to the Son, which, by the way, is me, which would fit right there. So it's amazing that I think of John the apostle, who was probably one of the youngest, and here, you know, he's writing his gospel many, many years later, probably the last gospel, I would imagine. But he's had this time to ponder and to think about all the things that this guy, Jesus of Nazareth, like, wow, I'm still gaining. And as he's studying the Scripture, he's. And then he writes his gospel in the fullness, of course, by the Holy Spirit, for sure. But, like, wow, did I really? Fully. Well, how often did he say, we didn't understand? We didn't understand until this and this and this. And his disciples didn't get it. So he's had time to contemplate all these things and then to write these truths that were in the Old Testament and still are. Well, some Old Testaments. Right. So let's address something here, since we've kind of talked a lot about it, is. So I get out my Bible on my esv. Doug, are you saying that I can't trust my Bible?
- [49:12]
A
Right, Exactly. That's the first place our brains go.
- [49:17]
B
Because it's safe. Let's be honest. It's safe for me to say that I don't know. I just trust my Bible. There's no variance. I don't know what that means.
- [49:23]
A
Well, the question itself comes from a good place because we believe in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scripture. So I understand the question. I understand the fear. But like we said early on in this podcast episode, it's actually because we can trust the Bible in almost every place, that this is what makes these things all the more stark. Because God superintended and allowed for the rabbis to change their own text. But you want to know what else God did? He also preserved the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Samaritan Pentateuch so we could see Josephus so that we would know what they did.
- [50:07]
B
Yep.
- [50:08]
A
Because God's process of preserving His Word was not through Xerox machines or only
- [50:15]
B
one line of text.
- [50:16]
A
Right, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Family trees of text. That's another thing. So there's all kinds of things that that discipline of textual criticism uses as a science to find out what the originals were. But we can find out what the originals are, and we have, you know, yes, no translation is going to be perfect. And not all scholars understand every place that was manipulated or whatever. But we also have many different English translations, certainly. And all you need to do is pull out three different English translations, get an esv, get an nas, and then get like an niv, pull them out, do your little Bible study, and you'll see that two of the three say one thing and one says another. On very few texts are you going to see that most of them, it's going to be in agreement on everything, at least conceptually, you know. But if you see something like this says sons of God, this says Sons of Israel, or one of my favorites is in Jude 5, I read NIV forever as a kid, and it says, the Lord saved the people out of Egypt. And then when the ESV came out, it says, jesus saved the people out of Egypt. I was like, I've never read that before.
- [51:24]
B
Where'd that come from? Jesus. What do you mean, Jesus?
- [51:26]
A
And so, because I knew my NIV well enough, that stuck out to me. And so I went, well, I wonder what happened. So you go and you read the footnote, and it takes. You immediately says, textual variant says Lord. Or in the niv, it will be the opposite. We'll say textual variant says Jesus. Well, you're a translator. You have to Pick one or the other. So the NIV went safe and the ESV went right?
- [51:48]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [51:49]
A
Okay. Because it's much harder to see how some copyist would change the word Lord to Jesus. It's much easier to go, yeah, there's no way it said Jesus. It had to have said Lord, because Jesus isn't in the Old Testament. We all know that. So that's the beauty of it. We actually can trust our Bible, and we can trust it implicitly. And even when it has a difference on this level, as Justin said, it doesn't matter because there's so many more of these that they didn't change that I'll just use those instead. It's like a Jehovah's Witness comes to your door, Right. And you don't want to pull out John 1:1 on a Jehovah's Witness because they've been trained on that train.
- [52:32]
B
They're slick.
- [52:32]
A
Maybe you could go to Romans 9, 5 or something like that and use that against them.
- [52:36]
B
Yep.
- [52:37]
A
Because they haven't changed that.
- [52:38]
B
They haven't. Yeah. And if you look at their. Their. I remember when I was in Bible college, we had. We were studying, we had to do a report on a. On an English translation. And so I went to the professor and I said, you said, this is a report on English translation. He goes, yeah, yeah, just pick one. And I said, I want to pick the New World translation. And he goes like, this was Jehovah's Witness. And I said, you said English. And he's like, I'm going to let you do this. And I said, okay. And so here I am riding the train every day, right? And so as I'm. God was so kind because. So I'm riding the train and I'm
- [53:14]
A
up on this troublemaker, man.
- [53:16]
B
Yeah, I was a troublemaker for sure. And so I'm in Chicago, and I look down below and here's this guy. He's got all of his watchtower stuff out. Like his. His little. He's. He's ready for battle, right? He's ready. And I was like, man, Lord, you provided. So I went down there and I sat down and I said, hey, you know, I see what you got here. And I said, oh, I'm a Bible student. He goes, oh, really? Yeah. And so he was. And I said, you know, I'm doing a report in my class. And he goes, oh. And I said, you know, everybody else wanted to do different versions. I said, but I want to do the New World translation. Can you help me? Can. Can you Help me understand who translated this from Hebrew and Greek into English. He goes, oh, of course, of course. So I, I met with him and come to find out one person and they, you know, like if you open up your King James or esv, it'll tell you the translators and they list them all. You have one person who was not qualified in Hebrew or Greek translating the, the New World translation. And I, I was kind of doing it as a way to him to see that how could you trust this horrible. Because in, again, as you said in, in John 1:1, it says in the beginning was the Word. The Word was with God. The Word was a God. And you're like, well that's, that's not true. And of course if you're in a first year Greek student, maybe you might make that mistake, but generally not. So you're like, it was just interesting to me that they, they're very selective and they obviously were deceiving a lot of people. But in the same way, now I think it's important for us as we look at our Bibles. Yes, it's there. I would encourage people get an English Septuagint.
- [54:51]
A
Yeah, absolutely.
- [54:52]
B
And get an English.
- [54:52]
A
And then you'll really see some of these different, you'll really see, you know, and also the whole question, the other one related to this is, well, what's the perfect translation? And my answer is there's no such thing as a perfect translation. By definition, translation is interpretive. You're giving me a bunch of words in one language and sometimes in my language I'll have three or four different words that I have to choose to immediately speak what you just said. And maybe you meant it different or maybe you had a double entendre meaning going on or who knows what all happened. But I still have to make a decision. And so then the other thing you reminded me of is that like almost all of our modern translations are done by committees instead of by one guy. There's like two translations. The Message Bible, one guy Peterson, the Phillips Bible, like that's about it. The rest of them are committees. And so they will assign one scholar to one book, a different scholar to another book. And so you can get like, people go, well, which is the best divine council translation? I'm like, there isn't such a thing. Because the ESV is awesome on the Sons of God stuff. It's terrible on Isaiah 34 and 13 when it comes to the demonic stuff. Like they translate every demonic thing that's there completely naturally, which is bizarre to me because we have inspired commentary in Revelation 18 that tells you it's demons getting it straight from those. And that particular translator didn't understand that.
- [56:18]
B
Nope.
- [56:19]
A
So which one can I trust? Trust them all. And also use the tools that you have to be able to find where you might find a little bit different translation. It's not going to destroy your faith on any of these things, but it can enrich the way that you see especially the supernatural realm.
- [56:37]
B
Well, and that's where, you know, as we're running out of time, that's. That's where I want to end is. So you've written this book, you've exposed this conspiracy very, very well. You've given. You got the receipts using modern language. But the goal in all of this is at the end of the day, finalize this for us. That how does this understanding truly exalt the Lord Jesus?
- [57:05]
A
Because Jesus claimed many things about himself that are divine and supernatural, not just human. And those were taken away from, first, the Jews, and second, through osmosis, through cultural integration, the Christians. On many texts that the earliest Christians were using to exalt Jesus divinity, we no longer do that. In fact, we mock, in some cases, the very things that early Christians were using to proclaim Jesus divinity. We say that couldn't possibly be. And we have ourselves become de. Supernaturalized and demythologized in the way that we read the Bible. And it's to our. It's to our own hurt. Because all of these things, they're not just for the sake of fun, supernatural things. It's for the sake of our Savior, who is God in human flesh. And I want as many of those passages that are found in my Bible to be known by Christians as I can because they exalt Jesus.
- [58:13]
B
Yeah, that's really what it comes down to is in many ways, if we have accepted, or let's say, you know, we. Genesis 6. Oh, the sons of Seth theory, which, you know, is taking away. It's taking away from the theological unity of the text. And ultimately it takes away from the exaltation and the victory that Jesus has by again, de supernaturalize. If you get rid of Genesis 6, how do you really understand anything else?
- [58:45]
A
Yeah, you missed the whole war that we didn't talk about in this podcast. But the whole Genesis 3:15, that's a promise of the first gospel. But guess what? It doesn't only start to come to fulfillment in the New Testament.
- [58:57]
B
Exactly.
- [58:57]
A
It starts to come to fulfillment in Genesis 6 and the flood, where King Jesus, who stands enthroned over the flood, by the way, in another sons of God text in Psalm 29, verse 1. And all the sons of God are praising him. He's the one who brought the thing because of the wickedness that they were trying to do. I believe in trying to breed out the possibility that there even would be a seed of the woman that could do anything to these people.
- [59:26]
B
You know, this is where I remember what you mentioned, Jude 5, about Jesus. You know, Jesus bringing judgment, but you go, or saving them. But you go to 1 Corinthians 10, and you go. And Paul uses the language, don't be like them. The rock was Christ. And you're like, wait, what? Where'd that come from? And so you have this. Jesus is extremely present in the Old Testament.
- [59:54]
A
You want to know what's wild about that? Is that there's another textual variant in verse 9 in 1st Corinthians 10, we must not put Christ to the test. That's the esv. But if you go and read like the niv, it'll say, you must not put the Lord to the test. Well, it's like, I can maybe understand the Jude one, but how could you possibly miss this? Because you have verse two that tells you the rock is Christ. He's right there. It's not like it's a leap for Paul to then go, they put Christ to the test. Unless somehow we have missed Christ in the Old Testament and we've become, as Christians, functional unitarians in the way we read the Old Testament, 100%.
- [60:36]
B
And this goes back, you know, again to the rock. How did they tempt him? Well, if in with one of your other books, the, you know, the angel of Lord, the angel of the Lord was sent ahead. He was there, he was present. And God warned him in Exodus 23, don't, you better listen to him, because he won't forgive you. You better. And my name's in him, you know, my power's in him. My presence is in him. So you think, well, that one, I think, ties perfectly together. When was Jesus tempted? When was he, you know, rejected? Or whatever? Like, well, read Exodus 23. So it's, it's. It's pretty amazing.
- [61:10]
A
That's the Sons of God text, too. In the very verse that's right before Exodus 16, which is the whole temptation story, it talks this weird story about how Moses leads him to a place called elim, where there's 70 palm trees and 12 springs of water. And you're like, why do I care? Well, because Elim is a wordplay on Elim, which means gods. And there's 70 palm trees. And throughout, like Ezekiel 31, the trees of Eden are called the gods. And it's like, what's going on here? The number 70. Why 70? Because that's the sons of God. Sons of God. Same thing. Jesus is claiming to be one of those. I mean, there's so many places where this. This worldview is found that we've just. We've missed it. Yeah.
- [61:58]
B
Amen. Well, Doug, it's been good. We could certainly go a lot longer, but, you know, I'm just gonna. The battle for the Bible's truth. Genesis 6, Jesus and the second century plot to deny the Messiah. And this book just came out. I encourage you to get it. We certainly. We have it in our bookstore. But this is gonna. This is gonna rock your world. This is gonna help you understand. And again, to see Jesus to the exalted position that he so rightly deserves, not just under the Old Testament, but certainly we see the New Testament and leader of the whole divine council. And to me, it's phenomenal. So, Doug, thank you.
- [62:36]
A
Thanks for having me on, man.
- [62:38]
B
Yeah.
- [62:38]
A
Thank you, everybody, inviting me out. Yeah. Bringing you out in Oklahoma.
- [62:40]
B
Yeah. Here we are in Oklahoma. Doug's going back to beautiful Colorado, so
- [62:43]
A
you get to stay here.
- [62:44]
B
Yeah, I have to stay here. So thank you, everybody, everybody, for listening today. Again. Hopefully, this is a blessing to you. It's phenomenal. Check out Doug's book and the rest of his books actually, as well, that all kind of tie together. We'll catch you next time.