← Prophecy Watchers
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Nearly 800 fellow believers from across the nation will gather in Colorado Springs this June for the world's premier prophecy event, Rapture in the Rockies, for one focused purpose. To hear from 16 of the most trusted Bible experts and speakers committed to teaching prophecy with clarity, accuracy and conviction, covering a wide range of topics, everything from Israel to the Dead Sea Scrolls, UFO disclosure, AI and the coming Antichrist, the fast approaching Rapture, and so much more. Don't wait. Register today at raptureintherockies.com and be a part of this life changing event.
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I'm with my good friend Graham Keelan all the way from England and we are going to continue our, really our discussion and thoughts about the 144,000. I know many of you have been joining us for the first two sessions. It's been a great time. Again, we're thinking outside the box here, which is what we like to do. There is no dogma. Well, maybe there is for some people as it relates to tradition about who the 144,000 are. Certainly we know in Scripture, Revelation chapter 7, Revelation 14, bring up very specifically the labels. But Graham has been sharing with us some thoughts and ideas and we've again, lots of good feedback so far. So Graham, welcome. Always good.
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Thank you, Monvo. Good. Yeah, looking forward to doing the session three.
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B
One of the other things as we get into this, let's kind of maybe summarize where we've been and, and maybe where we're going. We, we are, we are trying to take our time because we want to provide a certain level of, of understanding and background. But you know, some, some people may be a little bit impatient. They want to know what's this guy saying? What's this guy ultimately saying? What's the conclusion? Give me the Cliff Note version really quick. So maybe provide that for us and then we can again talk about some more background material.
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Yeah, thanks, Mondo. Yeah, I suppose that's the problem with dealing with a topic like this. So you know, if you want the Lord of the Rings version, you know the, I remember reading that now as a kid. If you want the book version, it's going to take you longer than the film version, right? Something like that. So, so I just think for me it's, it's taking the time to do it because we're not, I'm not really into sensationalism and I figured this out. I, what, what I'm trying to do is, is, and this picture is just, is. So, you know, people, we could think it's a five piece jigsaw puzzle or 100g piece jigsaw puzzle, you know, know. Or you can get the thousand piece jigsaw puzzle. We're kind of like looking at the thousand because the more intricate this story is, and I think the more that we, for me, as we understand the narrative, it suddenly then you realize why they, these guys get two chapters in the book of Revelation, you know, centered. Centered around them. So for me, it's not just a. It's not just a case of guessing, you know, I think I know who the 144,000 are and just putting it out there. So that's what I want to do. And like with any jigsaw puzzle, you know, as your kid, you empty, you empty all the pieces of the table and you're completely overwhelmed, right? And then, and then you have to separate the blue bits. That's for the sky, right? And then you, okay, they're the sky bits. Move them over there. Then you get the, the green, the green bits. Maybe they're the trees or the grass, you know, the leaves on the trees. And so they're going to be over there. And then maybe you'll get the. What's it, what's another color? The brown bits. Maybe they're the tree trunks. And that's how you put them over there. And then you look at the picture and you realize, oh, somebody's painted a cabin in there. They got a river in there. So now you're going to take some of the blue bits from there and move it down here and, you know, separate. And once you've separated all the pieces, it's still overwhelmed, but it's a little less overwhelming now. My, what I'm trying to do is separate all the pieces. It's taken me 10 years to get here, right? So it's to separate all the pieces and then sort of try and help it. We put the picture together, which is why we're taking our time. You know, we're doing. I mean, on our last session, we've taken the story back, haven't we? We mentioned those at the tomb, at the resurrection. I made a categorical statement that they look to be the 144,000. Then I said, well, they have to have lived sometime before that to fulfill whatever. And then I explained about it really comes how you understand the book of Revelation and how you read it. Do you read it always in the future, or is it thematic? Is there a story, a narrative unfolding? So that's kind of what we're doing, Mondo. So I want to thank people for their patience. And, you know, I do read the comments like you do. So I try to get, you know, the negative as well as the positive. So, you know, I'm trying to refine how I present this. But theology takes time, as, you know, you know, so this is kind of, you know, what we're sort of doing. And then when we've got this picture in our heads and this narrative in our heads, when we go to that. And if people could say, oh, yeah, now I see how that fits with that, because I'm getting pieces to this all the time, even as I'm preparing this. You get more pieces when you're actually preparing it than you do when you've actually just studied it out yourself. So it's. For me, it's very fascinating. Well, so what are the pieces? The blue, the green, the brown? And maybe you could talk more on this session, because I think what we need to do is we need to consult. I need to consolidate where we be, because there's a lot of information on the first session, a lot of information on the second session, and to really understand their story as I think it's being revealed or hidden and revealed in Scripture. So I think we can maybe this session, maybe look at that. So certain things that I've made, I said that if we look at certain things a certain way, it helps the story, it helps putting the pieces together. So the first thing I said that particularly the woman in Revelation chapter 12 has the crown of 12 stars. Now, a lot of people see that as Israel, and that's fine. There's nothing entirely wrong with that. But I think when you see that, when you see the woman as Jerusalem, the story then begins to take a different shape because the story is about Daniel's prophecy is about 70 weeks are determined upon your holy people and your city. And. And the time that Daniel gets that prophecy, we'll touch on that in another session. The time he gets that prophecy, Israel is long gone. And the only thing that's left is Judah, the kingdom of Judah. And that is. That is. And that Eve, they have gone into captivity. You know, we'll talk about the beasts and when the winds begin to blow and all that sort of thing. And it all really ties in with seeing Revelation, the one in Revelation is 12. We discussed the idea that there's no such thing really as the 10 lost tribes in that sense, that there were always a remnant of the tribes that came down to Jerusalem. They saw what had happened to the kingdom of Israel. We'll read some of that scripture now and I think it's good to get back to scripture. Cause people think, you know, I might be sucking this out of my thumb, you know, but it's actually all there. We'll read all this. So Jerusalem. And so they come down and they form part of the kingdom of Judah. They're returning to Jerusalem. And so that's why when we see again the woman in 12, the 12 stars represent the 12 tribes. Which 12 tribes? Because there are actually 13 tribes. We discussed how two tribes are not in there. Ephraim and Dan are not in there, are not named. Dan is completely removed. And there could be reasons for that. Thing is mondo. You can just go off and tracks just by saying that. Yeah.
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And people have no doubt. There's no doubt.
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Yeah. And it's almost like for me, like all the pieces got to fit. So if that's it, a thousand piece jigsaw puzzle, we might not even get to fit all the thousand together. But at least if I can, we can create a picture where people can then go and put the pieces together and see where scripture fits with scripture. But Ephraim, we mentioned that Ephraim, the remnant of Ephraim, appears to be referred to as the tribe of Joseph because Ephraim lost the crown, the crown of the drunkards, etc, and so Ephraim lost that identity. And then we also look then at the idea of men as stars. So interestingly, when you get to the word in the, in the New Testament ran the crucifixion scene, the resurrection scene, dazzling, lightning flashing, all of that. The Greek words there are astrato and astrape. They vary and they're all related to the word aster, which is, you will know is we get star from astronomy, etc. So there's the idea of men as stars. So again, massive motif in the Old Testament, in Daniel's prophecy as well. Right. Those who lead many to righteous will shine as the stars of heaven, that sort of thing. It's not just, oh, you're going to be looking really good. There's resurrection theme in all of that star language. So when we get star language, we also have to think resurrection. Not just, you know, shining, shining, my little light that was shining, shining our lights. So that sort of. Some of the pieces we're trying to put together, we spoke about Joshua, Joshua, Jesus and the stones of Israel, the whole Joshua theme, the whole Jericho theme, crossing over theme, Gilgal rolling away. Then we, I mean we discussed atonement, which is also vitally important as well to understand that that none of these men can be raised from the dead until atonement has been fulfilled. You know, so it's just, you know, so you just go on all these, all these different rabbit trails. And so we're looking at the work, the person and the work of Jesus and what he is doing and why he is doing it. So why does he raise 144,000 from the dead there at his resurrection? There's a reason for it. He not just, oh, I think I'll, I think I'll raise some people from the dead. There's, there's, there's, there's a, a redemption reason for it. So, you know, and then the idea then is that these men are glowing, they're shining, they're lightning, that they're called flashing, you know, the dazzling whites. The same sort of thing that happens with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, the same sort of language is with the angels. So Jesus says, you will be like with the, as the angels. So the angels are dazzling, lightning flashing the same way these men now are dazzling lightning flashing, you know, so we kind of, I look to that. So I don't want to go too much go back into all that. And then the last set, that was the first session, and then we did the Morning for Zion was our last session. This one, I want to do the Outcasts of Israel entitled. Because I, I, it might have been a bombshell for, for some people, but, but, but I, I, I said I think a case can be made because you, you'd mentioned about, in Revelation 12, they're, they're virgins, you know, and, and that's, that's a bit weird. They have defiled themselves with women. How does that work out with, you know. Cause you're supposed to get married in Israel, right? You're supposed to raise up children to Abraham. I mean. Yeah.
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Revelation 14. 14.
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Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of like, you know, but now it's all suddenly, now they're not defiling themselves with women, you know, so we're going to look at, we're going to kind of like move more into that. So, but I mentioned that I think the case is pointing to them more not just to be celibate men, but they have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven, which Jesus mentions that strange thing in 19.
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Yeah, yeah.
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He says that he thinking, well, who's, and he's talking, they have made themselves. So who's made himself a unit for the sake of the King? Talking about they will make themselves. They have made themselves so interesting. So I want to look here, Mondo, at Hosea's chapter nine. And I want to see how terrible it was for Ephraim. So Ephraim is the northern tribe. It's.
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Hold on, hold on, hold on just one second. So that I'll just jump in for a moment and then release it back to you. Just in the sense of. For my own summary for people. And some of the things you and I have talked about is so people. People can do their own homework. If you go to Revelation 7, you can see there that these 144,000 are mentioned, as you said, as the text says, clearly, they're Jewish people. 12,000 from each of these tribes. You have really, you have the 12 tribes, the 12 sons of Jacob. And then. But you have a total of 14 names, because in Joseph you have Ephraim and Manasseh that are added in. So it's interesting, as you said, there's a total of 14 names you can choose from. And if you look at all the different lists in the Bible of the. Of the 12 tribes, they all come in different flavors. Revelation 7, as you mentioned, it says Joseph there and Ephraim and Dan are out, but it replaces Ephraim with Joseph. So he's still kind of mentioned in it directly. So it's kind of strange. People. What I encourage people to do is, you know, when you're doing your own study, go to each chapter 7 of Revelation and 14 and write down all the descriptions. 8 Jewish, 104. There's the number, their ethnicity, here's the tribes. It's kind of like Hermeneutics101, simply, just write down what you see. You're not interpreting anything yet. You're simply making notes.
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And.
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And then when you go to chapter 14, see the descriptions here again, you see these men, you see the. The virgin idea. You see not defiled with women, you see white, you see Mount Zion, they're with Jesus. People can. Those are all puzzle pieces together. And then the idea that, again, to be really blatant is when Jesus was resurrected, you also see the word first fruits there. So you think, okay, write that down. And then in First Corinthians 15, the resurrection chapter describes first fruits. Using that language, Jesus is first fruits. So the idea is that when Jesus was resurrected, According to Matthew 27, he resurrected or raised up others that. That were there. And the idea would be that they. These would be the 144,000 that he resurrected. We see, for example, in. If you do a Harmony of the Gospels which again there's many books, there's many harmonies which are very, very good. I strongly recommend as well Arnold Fruchtenbaum's in his Life of Yeshua, Life of Yeshua, he has a four volume commentary. He does a phenomenal job of harmonizing especially the resurrection scene, you know, Matthew 28, you know, Luke 24, Mark basically 16 and John. So but the interesting thing there is, and this is what when you brought it up the first time the I thought this was very important that when you analyze that scene you can see that it'll say very specifically there was an angel sitting on the stone. And then over here you have. And I would tell people again when you go see whether it says angel or see whether it says men or see whether it says young men also see whether what they're saying, there's specific quotes that this over here, this is a trip. This quote is attributed to the young man over here. It might be attributed, I think to one of them was. Was the angels. And you're like, okay, there's a similarity of phraseology but put down all the different people that are representative in glowing dazzling thing again make all these notes. These are what's going to contribute to them trying to fit the puzzle pieces together. So that's the idea. And I thought if you look at the harmony there all it's very easy for people simply just to go oh well this there it calls them angels and here they're just young men. Well that's reading into the text. That's assuming then now that just because they look like young men that they, this, this one, they say angel, this one says young men. So they're the same. Well, I wouldn't necessarily assume that. And if you look at that you will see again, the language gives very clear evidence that at least a couple of those figures that appear at the tomb were resurrected in dazzling white similar language as again Jesus showing up or other angels. So there is similarities. Luke 20, like you mentioned, we will be like the angels. So we just encourage people to instead of reacting because there are some reactions is actually do your own homework and the data points and then go huh? Because it is very possible that there's this mysterious phraseology in Matthew 27 which has been always the question. That's one of the questions I always get. Honestly. If I do a Q and A, people ask who are the. Who was raised from the dead? This is all we got. But if you go to the next chapter and you do the harmony, you'll see, huh. There's some figures in white here where these guys come from. And the assumption is you just throw an angel label on them. Well, I think that's unfortunate. So this idea, again, the language, first fruits all is very, very interesting. And this is where it gets us to. Now is that okay, if these are people that were people of Israel, of the, of the tribes, they lived prior, obviously, if they were resurrected on resurrection morning, then they were dead sometimes prior. And so that's really what you're doing now saying, looking at all the characteristics. If we go to the Old Testament and look at some of the characteristics, can we find similar language? So just as a summary.
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Yeah, no, that's good, that's good. Somebody did ask you, asked me to, to, to, to dumb me down. So that's good. You put it perfectly. That, that's, that's, that's great because it's, and I think, yeah, it's deconstructing and reconstructing. Because if, if, when you hear this, you're trying to squeeze it into. No, I'm not. I'm not going to let go of this thing that I've got here. You tend not to hear. So I'm always of the, okay, Lord, just abolish, just demolish the whole thing and teach me line upon line from scratch. Because I've got nothing to protect. I don't have anything. You know, I just desire to know the truth. So, yes, but what I want to do is just here, look at Hosea, chapter nine just to show us how bad this was for, for Israel. Okay, Hosea, chapter nine. The Lord will punish Israel. Rejoice not, O Israel, exalt not like the peoples. For you have played the whore, forsaken you. God, you have loved a prostitute's wages on all threshing floors. Then threshing floor and wine vats shall not feed them, and the new wine shall fail them. They shall not remain in the land of the Lord. The Ephraim shall return to Egypt, and they shall eat unclean food in Syria. They shall not pour drink offerings, wine to the Lord. Then the sacrifices shall not please him. It shall be like mourners, bread to them, etc. And then it says in verse five, what will you do on the day of the appointed festival, on the day of the feast of the Lord. For behold, they are going away from destruction. But Egypt shall gather them, goes all the way down. Verse 7. The days of punishment have come, the days of recompense have come. Israel shall know it. It talks about foolish prophets. It says here The Prophet, verse 8, is the watchman of Ephraim with my God. Yet a foul snare is on all his ways and hatred in the house of his God. They have deeply corrupted themselves. As in the days of Gibeah, he will remember their iniquity. He will punish their sins. It just goes on. Ephraim's glory shall fly away, verse 11, like a bird. No birth, no pregnancy, no conception. So remember, we mentioned about. Ephraim is not represented in the crown. In the crown. And you know, again, what we're talking about here, Mondo, is it's all harmonizing, even with Paul. You know, it's the glory to the Jew first, not the Gentile. Right. It says Romans, chapter one.
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Yep.
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Yeah, it's a glory. So, you know, we can't violate those sorts of principles. But here, Ephraim's glory is taken away. There's going to be no birth, no pregnancy, no conception. Even if they bring up children, I will bereave them till none is left. Woe to them when I depart from them. Ephraim, as I've seen, was like a young palm planted in a meadow. But Ephraim must lead his children out to slaughter. Every evil of theirs is in Gilgal. So remember, Gilgal is the place of the monument of all the tribes of Israel with the stones. And it says, God says there, I began to hate them because of the wickedness of their deeds. I will drive them out of my house. I will love them no more. All their princes are rebels. Ephraim is stricken. Their root is dried up. They shall not bear fruit even though they give birth. I'll put their beloved children to death. My God will reject them because they have not listened to him. They shall be wonders among the nations. You go into chapter 10, and it just goes on and on in terms of this pronouncement of judgment of Ephraim. And Ephraim is the tribe which heads up the Northern Kingdom. It's the largest tribe. So Israel is often known as Ephraim. I just wanted to just again, just to sort of. There's a scriptural precedent here or to understand why Ephraim is not in the crowd, because Ephraim's glory has been taken away. Now, what's interesting, Mondo, is that, is that raising up sons, because I mentioned that we could quite possibly looking at eunuchs here. But it's a strange thing, because how would you make yourself a eunuch in Israel? And what would that mean? It's a covenant requirement for them to raise up sons. And There's a reproach if they don't. So we read that with the women, right? Hannah, Your Lord, you take away my reproach, et cetera. If a woman is not giving birth to children, she feels that the Lord, she's under the reproach of the Lord, the Lord has shot her womb, that sort of thing. I look at the first one here. In fact, we can't go down this rabbit hole. But I was listening to Michael Heiser on this and nobody could figure out why Judah is listed in the first. In the first list there in Revelation chapter seven, because he's never mentioned anywhere else. But I think you get the story here and it's the reason why. But anyway, a Judah took a wife for his firstborn and her name was Tamar. But Judah's firstborn was wicked in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord put him to death. Then Judah said to Onan, that's his second born, go into your brother's wife and perform the duty of a brother in law to her and raise her offspring for your brother. Weird, right? The owner knew that the offspring would not be his, so whenever he went into his brother's wife, he would waste the semen on the ground so as not to give offspring to his brother. And what he did was wicked in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also. Now think about that. God puts Onan to death because he won't take, he won't impregnate his dead brother's wife. Considering that Onan is probably already married, it's just a weird arrangement, right? This is like. But this was a requirement. And Judah initiates this in Israel and it becomes part of the Mosaic law. So you have the principle called the Levirite marriage. And this is in Deuteronomy 25, it says, if brothers dwell together, one of them dies and has no son. The wife of the dead man shall not be married outside the family to a stranger. Her husband's brother shall go into her and take her as his wife and perform the duty of her husband's brother to her. And the first son whom she bears shall succeed to the name of his dead brother that his name may not be blotted out of Israel. So what's that language? Where do we find that language about being blotted out? The name being blotted out? Book of Revelation. And if a man does not wish to take his brother's wife, then his brother's wife shall go up to the gate to the elders and say, my husband's brother refuses to perpetuate his brother's name in Israel. If your name is cut off from Israel, you're cut off from Israel. It's the worst thing that can happen to you. And he will not perform the duty of a husband's brother to me. Then the elders of his city shall call him and speak to him. And if he persists saying, I do not wish to take her, then his brother's wife shall go up to him in the presence of the elders and pull his sandal off his foot and spit in his face. And she shall answer and say, so shall it be done to the man who does not build up. The word there, build up is bana. Build up his brother's house with what? With offspring. So the idea is he's building up with sons, not just building up with stones, but there we know stones and sons are kind of linked together too. And the name of his house shall be called in Israel the house of him who had put. Who had his handle pulled off. In other words, the reproach from the brother's wife and the brother who doesn't have a name on Israel, it now gets transferred over to the man who doesn't. Refuses to take his brother's wife to impregnate her, even though he has other wives. It doesn't another wife. It's in the Mosaic Law. So. So when we get to the idea then, of a man making himself a eunuch in Israel, it was catastrophic. So Here in Deuteronomy 23, it says about eunuchs. No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord. Right? No one born of a forbidden union may enter the assembly of the Lord, even to the 10th generation. None of his descendants may enter the assembly of the Lord. No Ammonite or Moabite may enter the assembly of the Lord, even to the 10th generation. So in other words, the eunuchs are linked in with those of a forbidden union, although they can go into maybe after the 10th generation and the Ammonites and the Moabites. So this is to be cut off from the assembly of the Lord in the Mosaic system is catastrophic. So not only is their names are not remembered in Israel, they're not part of Israel's future. They're not part of its prophetic destiny to the world. Which is why if we have these eunuchs here who have done this, and we're not just people who are not celibate, but even if you just say, well, I'm Being celibate, I mean, you're still not raising an offspring. But I think there's something. There's something deeper in this. So they would be cut off from the assembly of the Lord. Now, if we look here At Amos, Chapter 6, it says, Woe to those at ease in Zion. Woe to those who are easing Zion, and to those who feel secure on the mountain of Samaria, the notable men of the first of the nations to whom the house of Israel comes. So he's talking to both to the kingdom of Judah and also to the kingdom of. Of the northern kingdom in Samaria. And then he mentions some of the other kingdoms that go check in these other kingdoms, do you think you're better than them? Et cetera. And then it comes back to those who the prince of the nations. Woe to those who lie on beds of ivory and stretch themselves out on their couches and eat lambs from the flock and calves from the midst of the stall, who sing idle songs to the sound of the heart, are, like David, invent for themselves instruments of music, who drink wine in bowls. They don't just do glasses, they do bowls and anoint themselves with the finest oils. So these are men living in the lack of luxury. But it says here that are not grieved over the ruin of Joseph. Now think of the northern kingdom there, therefore they shall now be the first of those who go into exile. And the revelry of those who stretch themselves out shall pass away. And God says, I abhor the pride of Jacob and hate his strongholds, and I will deliver up the city and all that is in it. And then if we go here to Amos, 8, 9. And then I'll give a little commentary on this. So it says here, this is what the Lord show. So Amos is the prophet here, the Lord's showing him. And he says here, verse one. The end has come upon my people Israel. I will never again pass by them. The songs of the temple shall become wailings in that day, declares the Lord God. So many dead bodies, they are thrown everywhere. Silence. Hear this, you who trample on the needy and bring the poor of the land to an end, saying, when will the new moon be over that we may sell grain, and the Sabbath we offer wheat? The Lord has sworn. Chapter 7, verse 7. By the pride of Jacob, surely I will never forget any of their deeds. Shall not the land tremble on this account? And everyone mourn who dwells in it? And all of it rise like the Nile, and be tossed about and sink again like the Nile of Egypt? So in other words, what. What we have here is, is an idea of mourning. So let's go on to, to verse nine. And on that day declares the Lord God. Interesting. This one. I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight. I will turn your feasts into mourning and all your songs into lamentation. I will bring sackcloth on every waist and baldness on every head. I will make it like the morning for an only son, and the end of it like a bitter day. So what does that sound like, Mondo? That sounds like crucifixion scene.
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It really does.
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At noon.
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Absolutely. Yep.
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Yeah. Three hours. Cause we tend to think, when we think eschatologically, we're always thinking about sometime in our future. But the eschaton arrives with Jesus, he brings the eschaton. And so you have this idea here of that I will make it like the morning for an only son, and the end of it like a bitter day. And we tend to think we link that with Zechariah. Yeah, that's going to happen at the end of days with Israel. And they're going to mourn for him like one for an only son and that sort of thing. But you get this phrase quite in another place. You get it in Jeremiah, chapter 6, verse 26. It says, oh, daughter of my people, put on sackcloth. Jeremiah's talking to his own people in Judah. This is many years later and rolling ashes, mourning as for an only son. Most bitter lamentation. For suddenly the destroyer will come upon us. So when we look at that and we just take, maybe we take Jesus out of the picture of that mourning for now, whose sons are they mourning for? Well, the idea is God is mourning for his son, Jacob, Israel, my only begotten son. And so God is, when he's pronouncing judgment, he's mourning for his own son. And so if we have these eunuchs who now undertake the mourning of Judah because they have seen what happened in Israel. They saw that. No. Well, they're probably descendants of those who came down from the northern tribes, the refugees, that they are entering this mourning on a personal and in a sacrificial way. In other words, they're mourning for their own son. Right. Because they're not going to have one. So in other words, they know what they're identified. They know what it means to mourn for their only son, because they are not going to have a son in Israel. And so they take upon themselves the mourning of God for his son, Israel and Judah. I mean, that's kind of what's going on. And what's really interesting is that in the Old Testament, sexual abstinence was part of the morning ritual. So you'll find that with David, Bathsheba and Uriah the Hittite, remember, even the holy warrior thing, Uriah wouldn't sleep with his wife. And so when he's off to battle and then David sees Bathsheba, he gets Uriah killed. Well, he makes sure he gets Uriah killed in battle. And then it says it's only after her mourning that David then takes her into. Into his house. So, so sexual abstinence is part of the mourning process. But the same morning that came upon that they were invited to do in Israel, they are now doing for Judah because Judah's going the same way. And Ezekiel chapter 16 says that the prophet says that God says, you've done more, double more than what Samaria did.
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Yeah, your sister Samaria.
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A
Yes. And Sodom. Your sister Sodom. You're worse than all. You're worse than both of them. And so if these men are taking upon themselves the mourning of Israel, sackcloth and ashes, and they go through the process of making themselves eunuchs in a very incarnational way, they're doing the mourning of Israel. And so in one sense, then you can see why Jesus, when he comes into Israel, when he comes into Judah. Sorry, Jerusalem. Getting all my thoughts mixed up there. When he comes into Jerusalem, number one, he's weeping over Jerusalem. Right? He's the man of sorrows. He's mourning over Jerusalem. He says. He says things like, my soul is exceedingly sorrowful unto death. Okay, but we'll kind of. We'll explore that a little bit. There's a scripture here in Deuteronomy 32, verse 43. And I just want to discuss on this idea of the atonement for the land. It says here, rejoice with him, O heavens. Bow down to him, all gods. For he avenges the blood of his children and takes vengeance on his adversaries, who repays those who hate him and cleanses. Now, the Hebrew there is atones. He cleanses his people's lands. Now that's the esv, the Septuagint and the Vulgate says, he cleanses his people, his land. A lot of the times we just think that the people have to be atoned for, but it's not. The land has to be atoned for. So if Jesus is following the mission of Joshua, for Joshua, the land is mission critical. That's the whole purpose of Joshua is to go in, drive out the inhabitants and sanctify the land, right? And there's an interesting prophecy that Jesus gets from Simeon. In Luke, chapter 2, verse 34, he says, Behold, this child is appointed for the fall and the rising of many in Israel. And for a sign that is opposed to. Now, I don't know if I said to make a note of the idea of the ruin. Those who mourn for the ruin of Israel, the ruin of Joseph is the same word. Here, it's in Greek. Here it says, behold, this child is appointed for the ruin and rising of many in Israel. So hang on, he's appointed for the ruin. And Jesus, when he comes in, he's pronouncing the ruin of Jerusalem. He's pronouncing the ruin of the temple. He's pronouncing the ruin of that whole. That whole mosaic structure that they have polluted. My house will be a house of prayer. He comes in. Jesus comes in and he's wearing the mantle of the prophet Jeremiah. Because even when he goes in to the temple, you have made this house a den of thieves. That's the prophet Jeremiah. But he's doing it through sorrow. And when he says, he says, my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. What's the sorrow? Well, what he's doing is he's weeping over Jerusalem's ruin. He's weeping over its sons and daughters. And remember, when the women are weeping over him carrying the cross, he says, don't weep for me. Weep for yourselves and for your own children. In other words, you need to be mourning. And he takes upon himself Israel's sorrows and mourning, because they wouldn't. He is the Israelite who takes upon himself all of Israel's sorrows and mourning. And in that place of Gethsemane, it causes him to sway, to sweat drops of blood, and it causes his soul. He says it, my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even unto death. That is part of the atonement is shedding a blood, right? It's not just Jesus. It's not Jesus sweating because he's thinking about his death. He's got to face, you know, how agonizing it's going to be. There's something deep here which is going on in the soul of Jesus. And if we are linking, if we as sort of understanding, then these 144,000 who have done this thing before in Israel, in Judah, they gave their lives over to mourning, to sexual abstinence, to never raise up a son in Israel, the mourning for their own Sons, the mourning for Israel. This is exactly. And Jesus lives the same life. Jesus has sexual abstinence. Jesus doesn't raise up a son in Israel. But the moment he turns, the moment he comes out of that grave, who's. Who are the first people he remembers. You understand? It's not just. I think if we get the narrative, if we get the story, it just becomes so absolutely wonderful and magnificent. The other thing to understand here is that the earth, as well as Jerusalem, is spoken of as a mother. So when that atonement is complete, the earth, Jerusalem, where are the graves open in Jerusalem? Where do these saints go to spread some sort of message into the city itself, into the city that they had been mourning over. When that atonement is made, only then is the earth able to give birth to the dead. So Jerusalem, spoken of as a Mother. Revelation, chapter 12. Elsewhere, the earth is spoken of as a mother. So Isaiah 26:19. Your dead shall live, their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy, for your Jew is a dew of light. And the earth will give birth to the death, to the dead. He has been appointed at the appointed time. Jesus dies at first fruits. No, Jesus is raised at first fruits. And at that appointed time. He's the appointed one at the appointed time to bring the ruin and the rising of many in Israel. And he fulfills that not everything is just 2,000 years in the future. Jesus is already doing this right from the beginning. And it's interesting here. I know we're going quickly, but again, there's a lot in this mondo. Why 144,000? I thought this was so much fun when I read this. Go here to Psalm 147 says, Praise the Lord, for it is good to sing praises to our God, for it is pleasant and a song of praise is fitting. The Lord builds Bena up Jerusalem. What have we got with stones? With sons? He gathers the outcasts of Israel. Well, who are the outcasts of Israel? Well, those 144,000 are literally outcasts of Israel. They're not in the assembly of the Lord. They're the outcasts of the outcasts. They have no part in Israel's future. They have no family in there. He gathers the outcasts of Israel. He heals the brokenhearted. Weren't they brokenhearted? Of course they were. He bangs up their wounds. And then the next line, he suddenly starts talking about astronomy.
- [41:33]
B
I quote this verse often.
- [41:35]
A
He determines the number of the stars. He gives to all of them their Names. Great is our Lord and abundant in power. His understanding is beyond measure. The Lord lifts up the humble. He casts the wicked to the ground. Sing to the Lord with thanksgiving. Make melody to our God on the lyre. Oh, isn't that what those guys do in Revelation 14? Making melody with. In other words, he's not. He's not talking about astronomy in the middle of that. In the middle of that, he's talking about raising up the outcasts, determining the number of the stars in the crown of the woman. These. These men are now, these men are earth stars. He gives to them, all of them, their names. We saw that in Isaiah. He says. He says, I will give you a name better than those of sons and daughters. And it's just. The story just goes on and on and on. And I don't want to. We need to bring it to an end, I suppose. But again, you know, people just to go and explore this. And I love that I found that verse, weeping endures for a night, but joy comes in the morning. So for the 144,000, joy came on that. First fruits, resurrection, morning at the appointed time, through the appointed sun, the rising of the rising of many is begun. And then, you know, people can go and say, go read Isaiah, chapter 56 from verse 3. Again, we've read that before. And so let me just bring this to conclusion, Mondo, and then you can have it. So in Moses congregation, these eunuchs, they were the outcasts. They were the least. They were the last. Oh, in Jesus congregation, the last will be first. And those cast out from Sinai are the first to be gathered to Zion. Moses is the shepherd of the tribes of Israel. Jesus is the shepherd of the tribes of Israel and the nation. Moses is the shepherd of the living. Jesus is the shepherd of the dead. So Jesus identifies with these 144,000 because he lived the same life. And they are the first men to come to remembrance when he begins to build his congregation from the graves of Israel. And I just think, absolutely. I just think it's mind blowing. So what's happening here? Jesus, Joshua, with all of this? And again, this is going to inform our Israel theology of Mondo. Jesus is legitimizing the covenant, right? He's not just saying, I don't want to be alone. Can I get some more people out of the tomb? He's legitimizing the covenant. You know, he's strengthening it. He's legitimizing the tribes of Israel. He's legitimizing Jerusalem. He's legitimizing the land. That's important because a lot of people think, well, the land thing is gone. No, he's Joshua, he's legitimizing the land. That land, that, that gave birth to the. Has been atoned for, that gave birth to the dead. He's legitimizing Israel and her covenant redemption. And he's legitimizing all that has been written in the law and the Sartre and the prophets. I mean, that's our Savior. That's what's happening when he's raising these men from the dead. He's declaring not only who they are, he's declaring who he is and what his kingdom is, is all about. So I just thought that was very rich. I hope people got something out of that. What do you want to say to that, Mondo?
- [45:07]
B
Well, I would say when you, when you mentioned that this flavors our understanding of Israel, I find it interesting that here in the modern day, as we're approaching the end of the age, even in the church, you have a lot of confusion about the, about Israel, whether they're still God's people. You know, the know, is modern Israel still. I mean, all this Israel stuff, there's no doubt God has forced this conversation not only on the world, the United nations, et cetera, but he has forced the church now to engage with his people. Israel. Again, when we, when we talk about is Israel still the chosen people, that doesn't mean saved, it just means separate. That's what the word chosen means, especially under the Old Testament. So. But God is forcing. It's interesting that God is forcing the church. Here we are, we're coming back and having this conversation about these 144,000 Jews. And so because why? Because God is keeping them at the center. Now, we know again, we're not. We recognize that modern Israel is not in a place of salvation today, that nationally there are individual messianic believers who are Jews for sure. But God keeps the conversation here. And what I see in all of this as well is even within the church, these are brothers and sisters, but I think they're very confused as it relates to understanding modern Israel. And many of those will say, oh, there's no future for Israel. It's just all the church. It's all the church. Well, what they're doing is. And if you look at their, their. If we were to go to some of these passages that speak about this future restoration, they would just say, well, that's spiritual. They spiritualize everything. You know, again, but when you go to the Book of Revelation, you have this very unique group of 144,000, which, wherever the Lamb goes, they go. You have this. It's almost like this super intimacy that this group has with the Lamb. That's another descriptive factor. But. And also, where are they? On Mount Zion. It's. And that's not just some spiritual pie in the sky symbolism. It's actually the literal place of Mount Zion, Jerusalem, as you mentioned. So what I find, again, in the church today, and not all, but in those that deny any future, essentially spiritualize away all these Old Testament passages, or they're not familiar with them, or when they do get exposed to them, they just simply, again, make a metaphorical or figurative. If you just let the Scriptures speak, there's no doubt In Psalm chapter 2, when the nation's rage in Revelation 16, right before Jesus's second coming, when the nations rage and they're trying to cast off God's restraint or his chains, God says, no. He laughs, I will set my king on my holy hill. Where? In. In Jerusalem, in Zion. So to me, all these passages will absolutely come to pass in a very physical, normal, literal way. And the more that we look at the entirety of Scripture, it doesn't contradict itself. We see the continuity between the old and the new. It's a beautiful flow. It fits great if we just allow it to speak in. In all these contexts. And again, we know in Matthew 19, Jesus, as you mentioned, uses this very interesting phraseology because they were talking about divorce. And he says, some have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom, others have been made eunuchs, you know, again by force, but others have made themselves eunuchs. Again, present tense, past tense. It's already happened. So to me, the fascinating thing about all this, Graham, is, number one, we're reminded that God has an amazing future, that we take the Scripture normal in a very literal way. It harmonizes great when we do it, if we don't come to it with our biases and our traditions and we want to force it to mean what it doesn't mean, here we are. And all this is going to come to a head. No surprise in the Book of Revelation as well, that they appear right there. I mean, it's a. This is why the Jehovah's Witnesses have kind of hijacked the whole 144,000 idea, is because they recognize these are these spiritual people, that they want to be a part of it, because they're the true elect, they're the saved ones. And you're like, no, sorry, which tribe are you from. But nevertheless, this group is very, very unique. It's interesting and to be able to bring all the background to it is phenomenal. So we gotta wrap it up, but any final words you got here?
- [49:28]
A
Yeah, yeah, I just want to jump in there because I thought this is interesting because basically the 144,000 of Jesus resurrection, they are legitimizing the gathering of the tribes. It's the beginning of the gathering of the tribes into the land because the land has been atoned for, et cetera. But obviously they're not living as atoned people. And so we're recording this on the Monday of the weekend, just the weekend has gone. The Americans and the Israelis have launched the attack upon Iran. And it's interesting because I heard the Israeli Prime Minister, when he gave his address, he said, together we will. Because. Okay, but we still got to keep present Israel in a proper context. He says, together we will stand, together we will fight, talk about America and Israel. Together we will ensure the eternity of Israel. Yes, and I'm like, I understand what you're saying, Prime Minister, but that is not within your gift. Nope, it's not your job, within your authority, your prerogative. You haven't made atonement for the people or the land, and you haven't been endued with that much power. And so, you know, the ensuring of the eternity of Israel Mondo was secured 2,000 years ago when the incarnate God Jesus established a new covenant with the house of Israel through his own sacrificial and sacrificial life and death. And he manifested it by raising from the dead 144,000 men of the tribes of Israel by granting them their double portion. Double means second. The second portion. What's their second portion is the second humanity goes to Israel first, goes to the Jews first. But you know, this kind of even this hubris from the Jews and Gentiles is what, you know, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is going to bring to an ignominious end. Right. The blasphemies and the rebellion of Jews and the nation Israel and the nations is finally going to be crushed. And these 144,000 mondo are going to play a massive part in that in the end days. Those are my final thoughts.
- [51:41]
B
That's good because again, when you go to, it's one thing to see him introduced in chapter seven of Revelation, but when you go to 14, it's just so beautiful to see the singing, the description of who they are, their connection with the Lamb, the first fruit language. You're just like, who gets to be part of that group? But it's so fitting again, that God would bring redemption to not only the land, but the holy city and the people. And starting with the Jews first, because again, it's, it's such a reflection of his character, of his glory. This is all Romans 9 through 11 if all these promises are true of Romans 1 through 8, then what about the Jews? That seems pretty weak. But Paul brings up Romans 9. Well, let me tell you, God's promises have not failed. And it's going to. He's going to fulfill it. Romans 11:26 on that future day which was began with the first fruits, all Israel will be saved. They will become the head, not the tail. And it's just amazing to think of all the promises that God made in the Isaiah Micah about this coming kingdom, where the Messiah of Messiah, the King of kings will be there and he will be living in Jerusalem. All those promises are fulfilled. The temple will be rebuilt. Ezekiel 40, 48 all to fulfill Scripture. God is faithful. He'll keep his promises.
- [52:59]
A
And so.