← Prophecy Watchers
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- [00:01]
A
Hello, I'm Gary Stearman and this is Prophecy Watchers. Mondo Gonzalez is to my far left. And Mondo, we have a very special guest with us today.
- [00:11]
B
We sure do. One of our own, Josh Peck. As always, welcome.
- [00:14]
C
Yeah, happy to be here. Good to be talking with you both again.
- [00:16]
B
We got some good stuff today. Talking about, I think, one of the most amazing archaeological discoveries in history, and that is the Dead Sea Scrolls, as well as all the things that they really, they reference and they discuss. There's so much that you can get from the Dead Sea Scrolls. And Josh, you have a kind of a, what you call documentary that you
- [00:37]
C
put here, like a documentary style teaching. Yeah. Dvd. Yeah.
- [00:41]
B
The Rapture and the Dead Sea Scrolls. I mean, what a great title that is. I mean, Gary, your initial thoughts on all this?
- [00:48]
A
My initial thoughts on all this. You know very well, just as I do, because here we are at Prophecy Watchers. We talked to a lot of people and we have discovered that the interest in the rapture of the church is growing daily. There's a lot of excitement about prophecy and about the fine elements of prophecy. And along comes the Rapture and the Dead Sea Scrolls. And we've got many questions to ask, a lot of learning to do.
- [01:19]
B
You know, Josh, for the audience, maybe give us a. Maybe give us a quick background on what are the Dead Sea Scrolls? Some people, they've heard of them, but what are they.
- [01:30]
C
Sure. So during the time of Christ, there were three major factions. There was the Pharisees and Sadducees. Most people are familiar with those. But there was also this group of Essenes. Now, the reason that we don't see the word Essene in the Bible is that term was developed later, but we do find it in Josephus. But during that time, the scenes would have been of the belief that they maintained the original interpretation of the debt or the Old Testament. So the Pharisees, they had oral traditions, that kind of thing. Sadducees kind of didn't believe in anything. So the Essenes, they were the ones, according to them, that maintained what the Old Testament was always originally supposed to teach. And they had their own commentaries, much like how we have Bible commentaries today. They had commentaries on all the books of the Old Testament. And within the Dead Sea Scrolls, we do find all of the books of the Old Testament except for Esther. And there's a couple theories on why that might be. Could just be that the copies of Esther that they had got too degraded and it could just be that. But every other book from the Old Testament has been found within the Dead Sea Scrolls. But what's really interesting is a lot of other books were found too. So the Book of Enoch, Jubilees, other books that they held in high regard that we might not consider inspired. I certainly don't put the extra biblical Dead Sea Scrolls at the same level as the Bible, but that do add a lot of context for the time that Christ would have lived. So these were written probably two to three hundred years before the time of Christ, and they were kept all throughout. And they were recently. Well, they were found originally. Pieces of them had been kind of all throughout history, but mostly when Israel became a nation again. That's when a lot of this opened up and they were discovered. So it's, it's a pretty recent ish find because you have in the 1940s, that was when they were discovered. It took a while for them to be translated and brought to the public. That happened around the 90s. But then with specific things such as there's actually a Dead Sea scroll calendar, historical and prophetic calendar, way of measuring times that the, that the Essenes had, that really wasn't completed until around 2018, 2019. So. So that's really cutting edge kind of stuff for our time today. So in the dvd, I do talk a lot about the calendar, what it means for our time today, and just specifically how they looked at these ages of human history.
- [03:55]
B
Yeah.
- [03:56]
A
Now, the Dead Sea Scrolls, when we talk about the Rapture, it's our blessed hope. It's something we are really close to. The idea that our Lord will come and take us is just a wonderful, wonderful idea. How did they view the Rapture?
- [04:14]
C
Well, we have a lot more information about it than they did because we have the teachings of Christ and, you know, we have a lot more revelations that came out after that. But they did have hints of it. When we read through Daniel 12, we read about how people that are in the. In the dust will be risen up. And it uses this specific term that there will be these shining ones, these people that shine. Well, we actually find that phrase all throughout the Dead Sea Scrolls as well. And when you really break down everything that it says about them, it really seems to be talking about these are raptured believers. There's times in there where they participate in some kind of end times war. And that sounds like Jesus returning with the saints, which would be us.
- [04:57]
A
It's like an interrupt.
- [04:57]
C
Yeah, absolutely.
- [04:58]
A
Use the term shining ones. My first thought would be angel and angel.
- [05:03]
C
Well, yeah, there's two different groups because it'll it mentions the angels too, but it also mentions these shining ones sometimes with other translations, and it just depends on the translators. But other translations are called famous men because they just kind of don't really know how to, how to deal with what this specific group is. But when you look at all the, their attributes, they're distinct from the angels, they're distinct from just natural human beings. But they seem to be believers that have this shining capacity to them. And to me, I believe that that happens when we're changed in an instant. I believe that we become these shining ones. So it's really interesting that they probably didn't know that the rapture, the way that we know it today, but they definitely had hints of it. So we can go back and kind of add that context to what we already know from the Bible.
- [05:50]
B
Yeah, I find it. That's a passage in Daniel 12 that I have long found interesting because in Matthew 13, in Jesus is given a parable and he talks about at the end of the age that those that are faithful will shine like the stars, shine like the sun. So you have in Matthew 13 again that imagery. And then I'm thinking he's quoting, he's quoting Daniel. He loves Daniel. No doubt Jesus does. But that Daniel 12 passage, that many in the dust will rise up and they will shine like the firmament, like the stars in heaven. So I find that really fascinating that you have this tradition that goes back a bit really eschatology tradition. But the Essenes and the Dead Sea Scrolls, they certainly believed. Talk about that. What being Sons of Light. We see that imagery as well by Jesus in Luke 16.
- [06:36]
C
Yeah.
- [06:36]
B
So talk about their, their view of, of eschatology and how there's the connections that you. We would have again with New Testament ideas.
- [06:44]
C
Oh, for sure. Well, mostly they were concerned with the first coming of the Messiah, which is. That would have been in their age. So just talking about ages, so people know what we're talking about. The Essenes believed in basically 7,000 years of human history. And it was split up into three and a half ages or four ages. Each age is 2000 years with a thousand year Sabbath age at the very end. We would look to that and say, well, that's the millennial reign of Christ. So before that you had the first age, which was from creation to the call of Abraham. That would have been called the age of creation. After that you have from the. Roughly the call of Abraham to the destruction of the temple. Roughly. It was probably, it was a little after that, probably about 76, 80. But that would have been the age of Torah. And then our age they refer to as the age of grace. And that would have started in 76 and go to 2076. And so they, they had a, they had a lot to say, mostly about their own age and the first coming of, of Christ. But this is also interesting why in the New Testament, specifically in the Gospels, when, when Jesus will, you know, prophesy to some people, sometimes it's like no effort at all. He can just get people saved like that. You know, they just, they just immediately go along with it. And then other times, no matter what he says, no matter what miracles he does, they won't do it. That's the difference between Essenes and Pharisees. Pharisees were looking for something completely different than what Jesus turned out to be. But the Essenes actually knew enough to recognize Jesus for who he was when he came. They even had a document that actually told the specific time when he would arrive. And we actually have access to that. I wrote about that in my two volume book set, Forgotten Prophecies of the Dead Sea Scrolls. So they knew exactly what to look for. And so with as accurate. So it's kind of said today it's a little bit of a misnomer that no Jew in Israel had any idea what to look for when Jesus, he surprised everybody. No, he surprised the Pharisees and the Sadducees. He didn't surprise the Essenes. They became believers immediately and then were beneficiaries of that. So to me it's like if they were that accurate with his first coming. Well, what about his second coming? And they don't have as much to say, but there are still some really interesting things there. Something else that is interesting to me is Jesus first came pretty early in their final jubilee. So their final jubilee would have been from our year A.D. 26 to 76. Well, between 3033 A.D. everything was pretty much wrapped up. That's Jesus whole ministry, everything was done. That makes me wonder, well, during our final Jubilee, which is 2026 to 2076, according to them, according to their calendar, could it be that Jesus will show up the second time for his second coming early in ours? And I sure hope so. Yeah.
- [09:34]
B
Amen. Do they have any? I know in, especially in Pharisaical Judaism, they talk about the Messiah Ben David, the conquering Messiah and the Messiah Ben Joseph, the suffering side. So for them they saw two different Messiahs. Did the scenes have an idea of like a singular Messiah in two different, I don't know, Advents Advents.
- [10:01]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they did. And this specifically is why when John the Baptist, when he was in jail, he asked, are you the one or should we wait for another? What he's really asking is which interpretation is right? Are the Pharisees right? Are we supposed to wait for another or are you the one? And so that shows us kind of that. That dichotomy of these two main different beliefs during that time. And of course, so we know that Jesus was the one. So, yeah, that's. That's what they were looking forward to.
- [10:31]
A
Now, let's. Let's take this a step further and fill us in a little bit on who in the world were the Essenes and what were they connected to? In other words, what was the basis upon which they wrote what they wrote?
- [10:46]
C
Yeah, so there's some really interesting history here. They would have been the sons of Zadok. So the way that the Pharisee, basically, this. From. From what we can tell, some of the history is a little sketchy. But from what we can tell, all of this kind of happened around the time of Antiochus, probably Epiphanies. And he was, of course, the one that infamously desecrated the temple. But it seems like what had happened was at that time, he told. He told the Jews in Israel, like, okay, you're still allowed to do some of your Jewish things, but you have to adopt our lunar calendar. And there was a group of Jews that said, no, we're absolutely not going to do that. They left. Those would become the Essenes later, or at least those would become the sons of Zadok, and they would eventually end up in Qumran and settle there later. But the ones that said, okay, we'll make that deal, those would later become the Pharisees and Sadducees. There was more splits that happened later. But what's interesting, the reason why the. What who would become the. The Essenes, the reason that that was so important to them was because God specifically gave the original calendar, which was solar, according to the Dead Sea Scrolls. According to Essenes, it was a solar calendar, originally gave it to the Jewish people and said never to change this. And we do see that in the Bible that it was really important. They do certain things on certain days in the exact, certain ways. Otherwise people could die, like with their temple duties and stuff. And the way that the Essenes would explain it is that the reason for that is time operates the same on earth as it does in heaven. So while priests and people are doing temple duties on earth, you have Angels doing their heavenly temple duties in, in heaven. We even get allusions to that in Revelation 8. We actually get the, we get a glimpse of what the heavenly part of the, what, what one of the, one of the feasts, one of the festivals would have been, and specifically the day of atonement. And so we see a little bit in Revelation 8 what the angels are doing. That's why there's the censor, the, the smoke, the prayers, all of that. So it's supposed to be done in tandem on heaven and on Earth, which makes sense because we read in the Bible that, like, the temple on earth is just the shadow. So that's why that group said, absolutely not. We cannot accept a lunar calendar. We're. We're going to stick with our solar one. We're going to leave. But then the ones that became corrupted, the Pharisees said, okay, we'll do that, just don't kill us. And so they adopted the lunar calendar. Did not, did not go very well. They couldn't perform their duties correctly. God didn't honor that. There's even some Pharisaical writings that said that once they did that, a lot of, like, wait, there was a big increase in how many priests would die every year, and it was because they weren't doing it on the right days anymore. That's also why throughout the Dead Sea Scrolls, you mentioned the sons of light, sons of darkness imagery. That's where that originally comes from. It's. They, the Essenes would call themselves the sons of light because they maintain the solar calendar, whereas the Pharisees kept the lunar calendar from Antiochus, Epiphanies from the Seleucid Empire, which. That's probably where it came from. Because when you look at what the Pharisaical calendar was, it doesn't really match anything else except that. But they would call them the sons of darkness. So when you read through the Dead Sea Scrolls and you see that imagery, that's what they're talking about.
- [14:17]
A
Now, when we read Paul's descriptions of the rapture of the Church in his Epistles, we develop a kind of a concept of the rapture, what we think it looks like, when it's going to happen, why it's going to happen, and so forth. Did they have that kind of a structure in their thinking?
- [14:34]
C
No, I think that got, that got developed a lot more during New Testament times with the, with the revelations that Christ brought to people, and then also the Holy Spirit.
- [14:43]
A
That's interesting.
- [14:44]
C
Yeah.
- [14:44]
A
They really didn't connect it with anything.
- [14:47]
C
They had an idea that it had something to do with end times, because they did specifically speak of like, some end times war, which to me sounds like Jesus returning with the saints. And they did refer to the Messiah quite a bit as one figure. So they knew that there would be these, these two advents or two comings or however we want to. However we want to phrase that. So they, they kind of. But they didn't have the full revelation that we have now. That would, that would come later, specifically with the Book of Revelation and other things that preceded that. But, yeah, it's interesting to see how they had the pieces. They just didn't know how they all fit together just yet.
- [15:25]
A
Well, Mondo, the Blessed Hope has a long track. It's been a while. And when we think of it, we think of something that Paul wrote down and it fits in with this, this, this and this. Looking at the other view, the Rapture, you know, and the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Essenes and so forth, you get an entirely. You get the desire and the belief in a rapture, but none of the understanding. This is fascinating to me.
- [15:59]
B
Well, I just heard, you know, somebody had asked me just this week, and they said, you know, I don't know if I. I don't know if I believe in the Rapture anymore. And I'm trying to find a way to falsify the Rapture. And I said, well, you can't remove. There's a lot of people, let me just say this way, a lot of people surprisingly don't like the Rapture. They have their own views of it, or definitions would be better. But you can't just get rid of the Rapture because I said first. Thessalonians 4:17 is so crystal clear using the word harpazo. The idea of catching up. Now, granted, all of us, you know, we have, with our brothers and sisters, we have different discussions on the timing, but the idea of removing the doctrine of the Rapture out of the Scripture altogether is completely a violation of the text. But I find it interesting, if you look at some of the, I don't know, maybe some of the more liberal scholars, whether they have saving faith or not, I don't know. But if you ask them, do you believe in a Rapture at all? They would, they would deny, even anywhere, anywhere along the line, which I find it is the Blessed hope, Gary. It's, it's that. It's the time when we get to be with the Lord, when he. It's the fulfillment of John 14, where he says, I'm going to receive You, I'm going to, I'm going to come back and I'm going to come again and receive you unto myself so that you can be with me in my Father's house.
- [17:18]
C
Yeah, if there's no Rapture, when does that happen? Because the millennium happens on Earth. On Earth. So when could that possibly happen? You know, another thing, and I do talk about this in the dvd, one of the biggest, and I think easiest to understand proofs of specifically the pre Trib rapture, because you could look at John 14 and you could say, well, okay, sure, maybe that's still mid Trib or pre Wrath or something, but specifically the pre Trib is the identity of the 24 elders. And I dedicate a whole section in the DVD to this because it's so important and foundational to really understand if the 24 elders are, as I, as I posit they are glorified believers. And the reason I believe that is when you look at the first three chapters of Revelation and all throughout the rest of the New Testament. But we as believers are promised a lot of things. Once, once we're, we're out of here, once we're with him, you know, crowns, garments, like really specific things, we get to rule and reign with him, we get to sit with Him. Things that are not promised to angels or any, any other being except just human beings. And chapters one through three, Jesus himself is telling these churches you're you. It's like reminding the churches, this is what you're. This is what you have to look forward to. So hold strong to your faith. And then we come to four and five and we're introduced to the 24 elders that are described the exact same way as what glorified. So either either John's being really confusing here and not, not explaining himself, or the text just says what it means. It means what it says. Those are glorified believers. And if that's the case, they're there in heaven before Jesus starts breaking scrolls, before he even enters the scene and takes the scroll. That has to be a preacher of rapture. There's a lot more to that, but I dedicate a good portion of time in the DVD to specifically that. Because it's so important.
- [19:10]
B
Exactly. Because when you look in, when you look In Ephesians chapter 3, Ephesians 2 and 3, Paul introduces this idea of mystery and he talks about the mystery of the church. And we see that in First Corinthians 15, the mystery of our change. We're going to, in a moment of time, we're Going to change. So, you know, there's eight mysteries in the New Testament. And the mystery, by definition, at least not. Not modern. This is a mystery. I don't know. No New Testament theological mystery is this idea that I'm revealing something to you that has been unrevealed in past ages. And that's Ephesians, chapter three, and that's the church. What I find fascinating is if you look at the various throne room scenes, you could be Daniel 7, Isaiah, chapter 6. You don't see, you see, you see living creatures or you see seraphim or, you know, cherubim, you see these other images. But what's missing there is this group. And then you come to the New Testament and you come to the Book of Revelation, and what do you see? You see living creatures, you see angels, you see the throne, and they're like, hey, there's this group of 24. Where these, where'd this group come from? You didn't see them in the Old Testament? Well, that's the reason it was unrevealed in the Old Testament that you had this group that would eventually be there, because they weren't there in the Old Testament. Right. But when you come to Revelation 4 and 5, as you said, you have this group that is there on thrones, garments, everything, you said. One of the things I find interesting is that in some of the descriptions of the 24 elders, you see, sometimes the living creatures are mentioned first and then the 24 elders, and then sometimes the 24 elders are mentioned first and then the living creatures. But what you see is the throne. You see the Lamb and you see the living creatures, but you also see the 24 elders right in the midst. I mean, they're right up in the business, which is exactly what Jesus said, that you'll sit on my throne. Yeah, with what you mentioned in chapter two and three. So I find it. I'm so glad you spent the time on it because it's so amazing. And you, you bring this up in the, in the dvd. Is there a connection with the Dead Sea Scrolls?
- [21:25]
C
Well, with the, with the Shining One specifically that we talked about earlier, I think that's a big one, because when you look at how the 24 elders are described, it's pretty much the same exact thing. And so again, they had, they had like, they didn't have the full thing like we have today. They couldn't have possibly pieced it all together with the limited information they had. But what's interesting is we, with the understanding we have now, what's been revealed to us, we can look back and actually see they were on the right track. It does. It does connect exactly with what we're seeing. Another thing too, with the 24 elders is the new song that they sing. Yeah, they say one of, one of the most. I mean, it says, you have redeemed us from. By your blood. Who else but human beings could that possibly be?
- [22:07]
B
Not angels. It cannot be angels.
- [22:08]
C
It can't.
- [22:09]
B
It. It.
- [22:09]
C
It can. And you know, there's. There's some textual criticism with that because some people say, well, in. Some. In.
- [22:15]
B
Some.
- [22:16]
C
It says in.
- [22:16]
A
In.
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C
I think, I think it's like. I think it's only one ancient version out of like 20 some odd ones that we have. But it. People will say, well, in this one it says you redeemed them by your blood. And, and I don't think it's a strong case because it's like, why are you picking this one and not these 20 others? But even if, even if I granted that. Well, when Israel sang their new song, they used that language. Yeah, yeah, exactly. They use the third person as well. So either way that you look at it, I think it's a really strong case that these have to be raptured believers. They're already on the scene by the time Jesus comes to grab the scrolls. So we have already been given our gifts. Some people might ask, well, why 24? Well, in the earthly temple, there was a smaller number that represented a larger number. There were, you know, it wasn't just the priests in the temple. There were also like tens of thousands of people that had different jobs, you know, musicians and, you know, different things. Well, such is the same for us. You know, Jesus says, you know, to. To one will rule five cities, to one will rule, you know, one or whatever. Some people, according to Paul, some people won't really even get any rewards even if they're saved, just depending how they live their lives.
- [23:24]
B
It'll be smoky.
- [23:25]
C
Yeah, yeah, they'll be smoky. They'll barely get in, but they'll get in and just have no rewards. So that's all part of it. And it just fits perfectly and consistently with a pre Trib rapture.
- [23:35]
B
Yeah, I think that language itself and you know, certainly the book of Revelation has numbers in it, and to me it's easy to remember 1 Chronicles 24. So the numbers go together and so there. David divided up the priests in the different 24 courses, and he divided up the worship leaders into 24. So 24 is, is. Is a symbol. It's A number that is. This number represents a larger group, but you're all under this. These specific orders. And so you're like. So if you want to say, oh, there's all the. The worship leaders or there's the priests, you know, in. Like, we know that Zacharias was of the course of. Of Abijah, he was one of the 24. But if you had those leaders, those 24 people standing there of the priest, they would represent the rest of them.
- [24:23]
C
Yeah.
- [24:23]
B
So to me, it's. It's a beautiful imagery that those 24 elders there represent a bigger, larger group, which again, as you mentioned, the songs and everything else are certainly pretty powerful. But you know, the. Sometimes you think that it's pretty straightforward.
- [24:39]
C
Yeah.
- [24:40]
B
Of what it is.
- [24:41]
C
And I've never really heard a good counter argument against that because who else would you identify the 24 elders? You know, I'm curious. Have you ever heard any argument that comes even close to explaining who those 24 elders could be that aren't like redeemed human beings, like somebody from one of the other.
- [24:57]
B
Well, just what you'll hear often is that there. And even, even in many of which people I would respect is they're an angelic class or it's symbolic of all the redeemed of all time, which again, if you look at the imagery, it doesn't. It doesn't fit all the. It doesn't check all the boxes because again, they're new crowns. Angels don't have crowns.
- [25:22]
C
Right. I mean.
- [25:22]
B
Right. And they're laying their crowns down at the feet of Jesus songs. When you look at all of them, it could only refer, like you said, to a newly redeemed group, that this is a new group that showed up in heaven around the throne that doesn't appear in the Old Testament all of history. So phenomenal.
- [25:38]
A
You know, as I'm listening here, what's interesting to me is your studies go back to an era when certain things were known and they were stamped and sealed. This is the way it is. Time rolls forward to the time of Christ. Certain things happen that change every horizon you can think of. And the descendants of these people, then in the church age, they begin refining their prophecies and they give us a little insight into the. The Bible that we read every day. First Thessalonians 4, 17, then we were, which are alive and remain should be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air refines what was already spoken.
- [26:31]
C
And it's so interesting when you read through the dead Sea Scrolls, because the Essenes had their own commentaries on it. The writers, Sons of Zadok specifically, they had their own commentaries, much like how we do today. And it makes perfect sense because when Jesus gave the Great Commission and said, go out. Who. Go out and make disciples of all nations, who is he talking to? Those were mostly Essenes. That, that, it's not like they stopped being Essenes. They were still Jewish, they were still Essenes, but they, they fulfilled their faith by believing in Christ. And then they went and took that out to the world. They, they left Qumran. You know, there were a couple other, you know, there was, of course, some Pharisees that made the switch too, but the Essenes, they were already like 80, 90% of the way there. Then Jesus came and taught them some things, and they accepted Jesus. Well, we come from the Essenes. We are carrying on that same tradition when we're doing exactly what we're doing here today. And to me, that's amazing. So this, this, this goes back all the way from the beginning. So when the Bible says that we are grafted in, we really are grafted in. And that's just amazing to me now in Israel today.
- [27:36]
A
And I'm asking you a question here that I'm not sure I should be asking, but I'm going to ask it.
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C
Go for it. That's what we're here for.
- [27:43]
A
Today's Israel. Are. Is there an equivalent group, equivalent to the Essenes?
- [27:49]
C
That's a good question. See, I've never been to Israel and I haven't studied it, Studied modern Israel as much as Mondo has. I would probably say if they're just whoever the Christians there are would be the closest, because the, like the modern rabbinic and people that follow that would be. Those are following traditions that were set by the Pharisees. So it probably wouldn't be them. But how would you answer that? You might know a little bit more about this than I do.
- [28:15]
B
You know, there's a, there is another group that you have, and they became pretty popular during the Middle Ages, and they're called the Karaites.
- [28:23]
C
Oh, right.
- [28:24]
B
So the Karaites are, you know, are scripture only. And so it's interesting because you have, like the Sadducees believed only in the first five books, right? The Pentateuch, the Samaritans were the same, but even though those are different groups, but the Samaritans, then you have, of course, the rabbis, the Pharisees that believe in, in all basically 24 books of the Old Testament in their version. And Then oral tradition. But come along. The Karaites. The Karaites actually were a group that rebelled against Rabbinic Judaism, only trying to, only maintaining the Scripture, the Hebrew, Old Testament. So in that sense, though I would probably say that because of their, they probably would be at least a modern parallel in the sense of post 70ad in that they were antagonistic towards the rabbinic side of things. But yet as far as we can tell, there hasn't been, you know, they're not followers of Jesus or anything, but yet if you're looking for a parallel and there are a few of them still, but they're not a big contingent, there's no doubt that Rabbinic Judaism and Orthodox Judaism in a sense like we see today, or even the Orthodox Orthodox, they really do have a stronghold on what is considered for them. Their idea is there is no other Judaism. This is the only Judaism that has ever existed. And that's what they try to maintain. But it's just simply, it's, it's just simply not true. That's what the beauty of the Dead Sea Scrolls are. Yeah, again, in addition to Josephus, because before, apart from Josephus, you'd go, well, he mentions these Essenes and they're, he mentions them kind of, they have a little bit of everywhere. They're, they have groups all around the whole really place of the land of Israel. So but yet you go, well where, where are they? What do we know from history? And then enter Dead Sea Scrolls.
- [30:21]
C
And the Dead Sea Scrolls bring so much appreciation. I want to ask you too, because have you noticed, and I believe that this is an end time sign. Have you noticed in recent times the enormous rise in anti Semitism, especially among people calling themselves Christians, people online that just for any reason they can think of, they will use to just lob insult and hatred towards the Jews?
- [30:46]
A
Explosion.
- [30:47]
C
Yeah, more than I've ever seen in my lifetime. Are you sure with this?
- [30:52]
B
100%.
- [30:53]
C
What do you make of it?
- [30:54]
B
Well, you know, to me there's, it's, it's, this is where you realize that we've entered into a very unique time frame of the end of the age. Because when you come to the end of the age and you look at the, the characteristics, whether it's Zachariah 12 or Zechariah 14 especially that you're going to have all the nations of the earth gathered against the Jews in Zechariah 14. I mean, so you think really all the nations are gathered against the Jewish people and the Lord comes to rescue them. And no doubt during that end of the tribulation period. The Antichrist is leading the charge, of course, he's seeking to kill all of them. And we know in Zechariah 13, right before Zechariah 14, you're going to have two thirds of the Jewish people killed. So we don't get there in, in a, in a, in an overnight.
- [31:41]
C
Right.
- [31:42]
B
So what we're seeing now after October 7th, all this hatred, I think it is, it is going to accelerate. We're never going to go back to, let's say, 20 years ago. There's always been anti Semitism, of course, but I don't think it's ever going to release. This is a spiritual thing that has arrived because a lot of people say, well, what evidence is there that. That there's this worldwide anti Semitism at the end of the age? Zechariah 14.
- [32:10]
C
Yeah.
- [32:10]
B
I mean, have you not.
- [32:11]
C
How else does that happen exactly?
- [32:13]
B
Again, it does not happen in a vacuum. So it, but it reminds you too that in Revelation 12 where Satan, the dragon, he goes after. He sends, using the imagery, he sends a flood after the woman who's Israel. And yet God raises up a protection, supernatural protection, and he gets so enraged, it says he's enraged because his attempt to go after the woman or the Jews is thwarted by God. God is doing supernatural protection. Right. He mounts like wings of eagles. You see the imagery there? So even there, this is a Satanic supernatural hatred of attack against the Jewish people. And of course, what do we see right now? First John 5:19. The whole world lies under the sway of the power of the wicked one. So when you see this anti Semitism in United Nations. Yeah, I mean, well, it's a spiritual
- [33:05]
C
thing and of course we should, we expect that from, you know, non believers because they, you know, in a sense, they don't know any better. They really should, but, you know, they don't know any better. Of course they're going to be easier for Satan to sway. But you have Christians more than I've ever seen. You know, I mean, throughout my life you might run into one or two every few years. But now, I mean, it's people that I've known personally that it's gotten so bad I just can't fellowship with anymore because just the hatred has gotten so much. And it, it's like you're allowing. Where's the fear of the Lord? You know, because when, when I hear these accusations and read these accusations, it's like, okay, if you're right, fine, but where's the fear of the Lord? If you're wrong. If you're wrong in saying, you know, like, the Jews run the world and all of the, all the, all the stuff that you hear, you're doing Satan's work for you. Satan is a false accuser. That's what his name means. And you're doing that work for, for him against God's people. Why would you ever want to take a chance? You know, at the very least, keep your thoughts to yourself. Right. I mean, what about you? Have you ever seen a time like this in your life where just in the church, this intense?
- [34:10]
A
As a student of the 20th century and the rise of the Nazis, sure, yeah. What caused that? In other words, go back in your mind. What caused Jew hatred in the 1920s and 30s and then moving up into World War II and the poke ground and the torture and that was hatred beyond hatred. And we ask ourselves, oh, World War II came and went. Or World War I came and went, rather. I was saying, and you would expect a nice peace, you know, people getting along with each other. But in fact, God raised up a system designed to wipe out the Jews. It was headed by Adolf Hitler. And I am sure that God allowed that to happen in order that the following years would bring Israel, the 12 tribes, back to Israel. It was a miracle. Movies have been made about it. And so something tremendously evil, and you were talking about evil, ended up in the State of Israel, 1948. And so we may be seeing another cycle like that. And the Dead Sea Scrolls may be alluding to an idea similar to that. Yeah.
- [35:36]
C
And at the very least, it shows even more, just the time, the season that we're living in, you know, even though we don't know the date of the Rapture, I think we can know the season at least, or at least get a good sense of it. And when we see all of these areas of prophecy ramping up faster and faster, like the travail of a woman, you know, I, I think we know that we're, we're in that season.
- [35:55]
B
To me, it reminds me of, you know, what, you know, like what Jesus says. Well, did Isaiah prophesy of you? You know, right. In this sense, with our brothers and sisters, you go, well, did Paul prophesy of you in the sense of. In Romans 11, encouraging. He's writing to Gentiles, and he says in verse 18, do not boast against the branches, but if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. And so in verse 25, for he says, for I do not desire Brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion. That blindness, in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, and so Israel will be saved. So this is what's happening right now, is they are becoming wise in their own opinion. There's a failure to nuance. Yes. When we look at modern Israel today, we recognize that they are not what they should be.
- [36:52]
C
Of course. At all.
- [36:53]
B
And just like if I read in the Book of Judges, they're not what they should be. We read about King Manasseh. I mean, one of the most wicked kings in Judah, and they're not what they should be. But they didn't negate. Like I asked the question, King Manasseh, he's sacrificing children to Molech.
- [37:13]
A
Well.
- [37:13]
B
And the people were following him. Did that cause them to cease to be the covenant people of God or the chosen people of God? No, chosen doesn't mean saved. It means separated. It means set apart. So they could be set apart and still be wicked in one sense on the way to hell. Okay, so in the same way, when, if we look at modern Israel, there's a failure of nuance here, and they're railing against, they're boasting against this group failing to see what Paul is saying here, that. Hey. And he continues to go on, concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but concerning election, they are beloved for the sake of the fathers, for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. So then he. Again, so he wants us to understand, not to be wise in our opinion, but that's what it is. I see that this increase in the church is because they don't understand Romans 11.
- [38:05]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [38:06]
A
Amen.
- [38:07]
C
Totally agree.
- [38:07]
A
And the Essenes seem to have had a very quiet but very solid appreciation of God's favorite favoritism towards the Jews.
- [38:18]
C
Yeah, yeah. They.
- [38:19]
A
They.
- [38:20]
C
From everything I read, they handled that very humbly. They didn't go and, you know, make a, you know, they didn't show off about it.
- [38:25]
B
They are Jews.
- [38:26]
C
Yeah.
- [38:27]
A
Okay.
- [38:27]
B
So.
- [38:28]
C
So they are Jesus. They're. They're allowed to. Actually. Yeah.
- [38:32]
A
The point I was trying to make is that not all Jews are. Are really excited. Oh, yeah. About the things of the Lord.
- [38:39]
B
Right, True. Yes.
- [38:40]
A
But the Essenes apparently were.
- [38:42]
C
Yes.
- [38:42]
A
And there are groups today that are in Israel.
- [38:46]
B
And Josephus had a lot to say about their theology. I mean, it was kind of neat hearing him describe how the Sadducees are super liberal. You know Pharisees a little bit more over here, but the Essenes were super conservative and especially the sovereignty of God and predestination. They had some very unique views, well at least contrasting with the others. And you learn that from Josephus, of course, reading of course, the Dead Sea Scrolls as well.
- [39:11]
C
And it's amazing how much that falls right in line with what we believe as Christians today. You know, we just have a little bit more of this story post Messiah than they did pre Messiah.
- [39:19]
B
Absolutely.
- [39:20]
A
Well, to sort of conclude our very interesting discussion here, where are we going today? Can you put your finger on a faction of Judaism that is parallel with the essays?
- [39:35]
C
The closest we probably have is the, is Messianic, what we would call Messianic Jews today. People who are Jewish and they, you know, by blood and they have the traditions and everything from the Old Testament, but that they have fulfilled that in Christ. But there's that. But at the same time we are also as Gentiles, we're grafted into that as well. So it's really exciting to see that. And that's why just this uptick and all this animosity just kind of blows my mind because it's like you're. These people are missing so much beauty and missing so much of the times that we're living in. I have noticed too a lot of people that fall into that tend to not think that we're living in end times or anything prophetic. Not all of them, I'm sure, but I've noticed that that's a trend that they deny a lot of that stuff. So to me, what's most exciting about the Dead Sea Scrolls, that what is the things that we're seeing today. And by the way, I wrote about this in Forgotten prophecies in the Dead Sea Scrolls. One of the reasons that I wrote those books, it's a two volume set, was that hopefully if you can present the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Jewish people as this is your history, like don't worry about Jesus right now. Just look at the Dead Sea Scrolls and see what it says. See how it interprets the Old Testament. See what it says about this coming Messiah and then who, who, who fulfilled that and when. Because according to Dead Sea Scrolls, they put a real date on it, they put an exact year and it was fulfilled in Jesus. So there's some really amazing opportunities there to, to witness to Jewish people, which I think should be our focus instead of lobbing every insult that, that we possibly can on them. Because I don't know about you, but I'VE never learned from anybody who just insults me all the time.
- [41:18]
B
Certainly not.
- [41:19]
C
So it's like, what a missed opportunity.
- [41:22]
B
So, you know, and kind of go along with Gary with your question. Is the, the modern, the modern rabbinic movement, what's their attitude towards the Dead Sea Scrolls?
- [41:34]
C
I don't know. I don't, I, I honestly don't know. I haven't heard. I. Modern Judaism, I haven't studied as closely as some of the more ancient stuff. So I have. But I haven't really heard a lot of them talk about it. It seems like a lot of them want to go more towards like Talmud and.
- [41:50]
B
Right. I mean, so, you know, it's, it's in my, in my interactions and they, they don't embrace, they don't embrace the Dead Sea Scrolls because it doesn't fit their. There's no doubt they appreciate that. Hey, here's some history. And of course it provides a great testimony to the Hebrew Bible, the Masoretic text. But they, they don't remember the Pharisees hated these things.
- [42:18]
C
Yeah. Oh yeah.
- [42:19]
B
So the modern rabbinic movement doesn't, doesn't just, oh, let's embrace the massless document, let's yell it. No, no, not at all.
- [42:26]
C
But with individual Jewish people who maybe aren't religiously biased, you might have a chance to reach some of those. So, yeah, hopefully. And maybe we'll see some kind of, some kind of revival.
- [42:39]
B
Yeah, that's the hope.
- [42:40]
A
Well, that phrase, very familiar phrase in the Bible, blindness in part keeps rotating through my head and that is at the behest of God himself. He has taken a position relative for Jews. A lot of people say God's against them, we hate them, we're going to wipe them out. But a well educated Christian loves the Jews.
- [43:08]
C
Yeah, of course.
- [43:08]
A
As God loves the Jews.
- [43:10]
B
That's right.
- [43:11]
A
And just say a word or two about there relative to the essay.
- [43:14]
C
Yeah, well, I mean, it doesn't mean that we love everything they do or agree with everything they do. And you know, a lot of people point to that, but there's a lot of things my own country, America does that I don't love or even appreciate. But I still love the country and I still support the country even though I want to see these things change. So like Mondo said, there's a lot more nuance, a lot more nuance to it. And in terms of the Essenes, we carry on that traditions. The Essenes weren't really going after the Pharisees. You don't really see that they wanted to Kind of stick to their own thing. And they even had a process by which. And I wrote about this, too, a Pharisee such as possibly Paul might have actually been an Essene convert. There's a whole area that we probably waited way too late to get into for this. But they actually did have a mechanism in place for people who wanted to convert to the Essene way. They could have done that. And it was a very careful process. It took a while because they wanted to make sure they weeded out people who weren't really serious about it. But it wasn't these scenes going after the Pharisees. I think same with us Christians. Like, it's a waste of time and. And at worst, we're doing Satan's bidding. If we're just constantly attacking and going after the Jews instead of trying to find ways that we might get as many saved as possible, knowing that there is this blindness. We're not going to save all of them, but even if we can save one, it's worth it.
- [44:35]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [44:37]
A
Well, one final question, and you can say either yes or no.
- [44:41]
C
Okay.
- [44:41]
A
Is there a group of quote, unquote, Essenes today?
- [44:47]
C
Well, no. The Essene way. The Essene way really became Christianity. I mean, Christianity is kind of like the completed Essene way. So Essenes were pre Christ, of course, and the. The fulfillment of everything they believed in, because they didn't have everything exactly right either. Jesus had to correct a few things. They were more minor compared to the Pharisees and Sadducees, but they had some. They had some misgivings as. As well.
- [45:14]
B
70 AD changed everything.
- [45:16]
C
Yeah, that changed everything. So, you know, I would say that we. We as Christians, Jew and Gentile Christians, we are carrying on that tradition, that belief, that hope that was laid 2,000 years ago before our time. And that would probably be the group that you'd have to point to today. Just believers in Jesus in general.
- [45:37]
A
Josh, thanks for joining us.
- [45:39]
C
Thanks for inviting me back on.
- [45:40]
A
It's been great.
- [45:41]
B
Always good.
- [45:43]
A
And to all of you, keep watching. We are.