← Prophecy Watchers
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- [00:01]
A
Hello everyone. Mono Gonzalez here in studio. And we have a special program today. We're going to be talking about something that many of you might have heard or hopefully have heard or maybe you haven't. A very serious situation that has been happening in Nigeria and other places in Africa. And we have with us Clint Lyons today, who's gonna, who's gonna join us to kind of unpack some of this stuff because it's important for, for us not to be unaware of what is happening to our brothers and sisters around the world. So, Clint, welcome.
- [00:30]
B
Thanks. Great to be with you, Mondo. Appreciate it.
- [00:32]
A
Yeah. And we, we've, we've done another, we've did an interview a while ago as well. So for those that our audience that might not know about you introduce yourself to them and kind of talk about what you do and what you have been doing.
- [00:43]
B
Thanks. Well, I run an organization called Ireach Global and our mission is to empower persecuted Christians through gospel centered care, spiritual growth and immobilizing them ultimately to impact their communities. And one of the areas that we've really been involved is in Nigeria. So we've, you know, our, our staff and our team have been on the front lines of responding to much of the tragedy that you may have read about. And so yeah, it's, it's a joy to be able to serve these believers and, and to stand with them and to continue to empower them to let the love of Jesus shine even in this unfathomable darkness.
- [01:22]
A
If we've been seeing, you know, and as we were talking a little bit before, some of the, the news has, you know, you hear these, these moments, these intense things with, with that is happening there in Nigeria of a lot of slaughtering and happened and other things and then of course other news items come in. But talk about what you've seen and, and maybe if it's not just in Nigeria as well, but maybe enlighten us on like really what we see is the pattern of violence that is happening all in, really anywhere in the stuff that you're doing.
- [01:52]
B
Yeah, yeah. So the, the global news is kind of a roaming spotlight and so it'll, it'll shine light on something for a little bit and then you know, the mainstream news will move on to, to things that are, that are good. But the truth is that Nigeria is just as bad as it's ever been. And when I say Nigeria, I'm talking about Nigeria proper. But the nation surrounding Nigeria, what we call this Sahil region, which is, you know, if you, if you were To. To take the Sahara Desert and kind of draw a line under it. That's what we call the Sahil. It's a. It's a place that is responsible for more deaths in the world than anywhere in the world. Right now. Nigeria is. Is the epicenter of persecution that's happening in the Sahel. And I would say it's the epicenter of persecution for the world. More Christians are dying there than anywhere else in the world right now. I think last year, around 90, 85 to 90% of martyrs in the world were Nigerian. And so as we are working on the ground and interacting with believers there and seeing what God is doing, in some ways it's disheartening because we've been through this before. We continue to see that tragedy after tragedy piles up into patterns of. Of hate. That's happening against our Christian brothers and sisters. But I would also say at the same time, it's encouraging to see their faith and how resilient they are even in the midst of it. Maybe you've seen pictures of Nigerian believers gathering and burnout churches to worship Jesus. And we continue to see that over and over again, that despite the fact that they are being persecuted more than anywhere in the world, God is still sustaining them. He is still breathing life into that church. And the gospel and the good news of the kingdom continues to move forward.
- [03:44]
A
Yeah, you know, I want to. I want to circle back to this, you know, as we get farther along. But right now, you know, people, here we are at the kind of the beginning part of the conversation. What. What can people do? What can people do? Certainly pray, but what. What else can people do to help this situation?
- [04:02]
B
Yeah, I would say it's. It's. It's very tempting to watch the news and to say, oh, I feel sorry for those people and to feel pity, and that's the right emotional response. But our response should be more than that. It should be to actually stand with them. You know, whether it's through I reach Global, going to irishglobal.org and sending a survival kit to a persecuted believer or through another great organization that's doing work on the ground there. The church needs us to stand with them. As I look back to the New Testament and look back at the persecution that was breaking out, there was this just this constant ask, you know, in the Epistles of Paul to stand with churches and to, you know, to help in distributing food when these types of things happen. And so I think that remains our job today as believers who are blessed. We live in a blessed Part of the world, most of us who are watching and we have the ability to help and it is incumbent upon us to do that where we have the ability to do so.
- [05:08]
A
Yeah, and you're going to be, you mentioned that you, you're going to be heading to Nigeria here. I mean, tomorrow's July 1st, and so really pretty much next month in August. And what does that, what does that look like for you? You know, going there on the ground and obviously maybe give us an understanding of how safe or not safe it is or what precautions you have to take in order to go there and administer amongst the people.
- [05:31]
B
Right. Well, where we land is the capital of Nigeria. It's fairly safe area. But very quickly you get outside the capital and we go to an area in, in Nigeria called Plateau State. And Plateau State right now is one of the epicenters of persecution in Nigeria where a lot of these attacks from these, these people called the Fulani ethnic militia are going into, into villages, into Christian villages shouting Allahu Akbar and slaughtering people, burning homes and leaving them homeless and many leading widows leading, leaving orphans behind. And so we go into these areas, you know, we're, we have to be really careful about where we're going as well and how we go in and we're serving people. We're. We're giving them what are called survival kits which are. Contain food supplies and necessities to help them survive. And we always give them a copy of God's word. And I would say, in fact, that's probably what is requested most. You know, are you bringing Bibles? Are you bringing Bibles? Because without God's word to comfort them, you know, the food they have, that will go away, the supplies they have, they will diminish. But God's word is eternal and it lasts forever. And it gives them an eternal hope that they can continue to strive and continue to believe and continue to have faith even in the midst of the unspeakable circumstances that they find themselves in.
- [06:56]
A
Yeah, I mean, if people are willing to watch some of the videos, it's quite disturbing, for sure. And of course, the news doesn't share half of it. And you know, is there, do the Christians there. You know, there's always theological backdrops of different things. But do the Christians have a way to defend themselves at all? Or does, you know, as.
- [07:19]
B
Yeah. Right now? They don't. When you look at the people who have the weapons, it's the law breakers. They're the ones who are well resourced. You, you've probably heard or maybe you've heard the, the media describe the conflict as a farmer herder conflict. Well, it's actually, you know, doesn't really do it justice because, number one, these aren't just herders that are coming in. These aren't just nomads coming in with knives and machetes on foot. These guys are well resourced who are doing the attacking. They have trucks, the big trucks where they pile in. They have AK47s that they are shooting into these villages and slaughtering people. And so they are well resourced, while the Christian community there typically abides by the law, which is you're not allowed to have guns. And so the result is they're left as sitting ducks, for lack of a better term for attacks like this.
- [08:21]
A
Has the, you know, we talked a little bit earlier. Maybe you can share what is the, what has the Nigerian government itself and maybe describe, you know, its constituency, what has it done and then how has the United States government, if it has helped at all?
- [08:36]
B
Well, right now in Nigeria, it's a, it's an unfortunate situation. We have what is a. Between the president and vice president in Nigeria. We have a Muslim, Muslim ticket. And I'm not saying that that's the reason these things are happening, but it does, does raise a lot of eyebrows that typically in Nigeria you have what is a Muslim Christian ticket where either the president or the vice president will be a Christian while the other one's a Muslim. And so there's, there's a lot of speculation that, hey, maybe that's why they're turning a blind eye to a lot of this. I will say in this, there was a recent attack that happened just a little over a week ago in an area called Bokos, a town called Mushari that we are very acquainted with. And one thing that was most tragic about this is there was a army, a Nigerian army that was a platoon that was stationed about a mile away from the attack. And it took them two hours to respond, two hours to come in. Meanwhile, shooting was happening, death was happening, believers were being driven out of their homes while the Nigerian government didn't. Did nothing. And so there, it does raise a lot of suspicion. I would say at the very least, corruption has taken over in this area where the president and the vice president are catering to the more extreme side of their country in order to gain political clout and hopefully secure future office.
- [10:08]
A
Yeah. And I mean, and you know, it is what it is. And so, I mean, this is, this, this is a religious. This is a religious violence, right? I mean, this is Islamic violence against Christians. I mean, it's. Is it, is it, can we say it's that simple or is it more complex?
- [10:26]
B
You know, anytime you have a conflict in Africa, it's, it's multi layered. I would say the Christian Muslim dynamic is the strongest, but there is also a competition for resource dynamic that is happening. Competition for resources. When you look at the, the, the, the history of these people groups, I'm talking about the Fulani and the people and the farmers in this area, you see in the past they have coexisted peacefully. There was a time when they did, you know, you go back 20, 25 years and they were coexisting peacefully. And so the, the tension, the religious tension was there, but it didn't result in this big persecution, this mass persecution and slaughter that we're seeing. So you add on top of that religious element, also competition for resources. You add tribal, tribal complications and that, and that just adds kindling to the fire until eventually you see, boom, we have this, this big mass persecution breakout. But without a doubt it is Christian Muslim, because how else do you explain that the Muslims who go into slaughter are shouting Allahu Akbar while they're slaughtering? That's, that's undeniable. And it's undeniable that they are being resourced by bigger groups who would love to see Christians driven out of the middle belt of Nigeria.
- [11:51]
A
How are the other, you know, Christian communities and churches, you know, maybe in the surrounding areas? How are they, are they able to help or to handle some of this? Or does it require a little bit more like yourself, an external organization to come in?
- [12:09]
B
Yeah, so the, there is, there are eight initiatives that are happening in the country of Nigeria. The, the problem is that the need is so overwhelming to the ability to meet that need. So you may have churches there who are in a position to help, but they need, the, the need is so great that they need people who are outside of the country to, to help and to, to bring a.
- [12:38]
A
And so when you think about that, like on your trip kind of refreshes, you know, in the sense of what are you, like, what do you bring, what do you. You talked about some kits and stuff, but you know, is there a team like 10, 15, 20 of you guys?
- [12:55]
B
Well, there's a few of us from the US who will go and we will partner while we are there with our, our folks on the ground. So we have a staff on the ground, a team on the ground. We call them our frontline workers who, their job is to, to, to be the front line to, to respond when things like this happen. And so we will partner with them. And so one thing we love to do is, is go in and we like to meet immediate needs, right? So immediate needs are going to be people, going to be the people who were displaced, people who have lost their loved ones, widows, orphans and those types of people who we are, we're giving these survival kits to. And it's going to help hold them over at least for a while until we can get back maybe, or until they can find something that's more long term sustainable, which is one area that we want to help in as well. And then second, we want to help them grow spiritually. So we actually have a six week discipleship curriculum that we sit down with them and we talk through who is Jesus and what does he want us to do and how do we as Christians respond in love into people who want to kill us? And so because that the mandate to love your neighbor, to love your enemy, doesn't stop even with those who want to kill you. And so our goal is to help them do that, to walk them through that. There's also a trauma counseling element that we bring in and help them kind of heal from that. And so there are myriads of ways that we help not just in the short term, but long term. Sustainability and hope and forgiveness.
- [14:35]
A
Is there, like, is. What are the, what are the, I guess you would say denominations, I suppose would be a fair way to say it. Are there, what's the segment or of the Nigerian Christian population? How is it, how is it aligned? Is it aligned with any specific larger denominations or is it just kind of sporadic?
- [14:53]
B
Yeah, there's, there's definitely a sporadic element. I would say there are some larger denominations. You have your Baptist, you have your Pentecostals, you have your. Also there's, there are some distinctly African denominations there called Ecwa Coken, those types of denominations that are also there. And so, so some of them are international, some of them are national to Nigeria. And but the, the, in a lot of these communities where we're working, what's wonderful is that you actually see denominations coming together and that's one area that we want to help as well is to bring pastors of different denominations together to help the people respond. Because you know, when, when, when the bullets start flying and when people start dying, little denominational differences, they tend not to matter as much that the church tends to unify.
- [15:43]
A
Yeah, that, that, I mean that makes great sense in so many ways. You know, the, as a pastor, you know, no doubt in my life, trying to teach and other things as it relates to just the nature of evil and other things and suffering. No doubt, as you're there and certainly you've been there many times and other places. How do you know, you talk to people. How are they, you said they're praising Jesus. I mean, that's amazing. How are they generally responding to theologically, I guess to the suffering that they have?
- [16:20]
B
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think they remember where their hope lies and that it's not in this world. You know, many of them love the help that we provide, but like I said, they, more importantly than the physical help we provide the food and the supplies, they love having that copy of God's word in their hands because it reminds them that this world is not their home, that ultimately their hope is in the kingdom that's coming. And as we speak with them, that's a constant refrain that we hear over and over again, is that Jesus is real, Jesus is good, and we, we trust in him. We, we, we love him. And, and they're looking forward to the kingdom to come, not, not trusting in their, their circumstances that they find themselves in today.
- [17:09]
A
You know, it's interesting that I don't know if there could be a bigger contrast to what you just described and us, you know, myself included, living in, you know, we get distracted by so many things and you know, there's a lot of good work and stuff, but yet there, it's just daily survival.
- [17:28]
B
It is, it is. And I would say, you know, most of all, you know, you think about like, what are the future implications of what they believe? You know, we see persecution increasing in this area and they see it as a sign that the Lord is coming and they believe that Jesus is coming. And I think that that's, we could really learn a lesson from that when it comes to our day to day lives.
- [17:54]
A
Yeah, 100%. It's, you know, it's interesting and just, you know, we see in scripture, Jesus said it that, you know, as we get to the end of the age, that persecution would increase and, and no doubt, you know, you have these pockets like this in other parts and different types of persecution all around. You know, as you, as you plan, you know, you, you said you were going, you're leaving here in the next week or so to go to Kenya. What's, what's happening there is that different situation, different, different ministry goals there.
- [18:22]
B
Yeah, I mean, in Kenya you don't have the type of attacks that we're seeing in Nigeria. There is a definitely more subtle type of persecution that's happening. You see pastors who are robbed of economic opportunities and people, Christians who are robbed of economic opportunities. I'll tell you a quick story. We had a pastor we were working with who he was a bivocational pastor. And so he worked as a pastor and then also had another job. And one of the things he did was he had a, a little shop that he ran in the village. And so he rented out this kiosk, this shop, and began selling just daily supplies and goods that people needed. And one day he showed up to his shop and there was a padlock on the door. Well, so he called his landlord and said, hey, I've been paying my rent. Why is there a padlock on my door? And the owners or the owner of the shop said, well, you're right, you have, but the village elders who are Muslim will not allow me to rent this to a Christian pastor. And so you see that type of persecution a lot. And so there's still that animosity, there's still that suspicion of Christians where they are the minority and there's this Muslim majority. And so our goal is to go in and to help them connect and make meaningful connections with their Muslim neighbors. And we're seeing, what's great is we're seeing Muslims come to faith. We're seeing Muslims join discipleship groups and before they even place their faith in Christ. We love seeing that because, you know, a Muslim who wants to know more about Jesus, you know, they read about Jesus in their Quran, but when they open the Bible, it's like Jesus really comes alive to them. We have so many more stories and so much more truth in that and so always love seeing that. And so that's what we're going to be doing. We're going to be training leaders to go out and to, to train others. And we're excited to, to be a part of that.
- [20:21]
A
Yeah, I mean that, that's, that's phenomenal in the sense of, I mean the goal is always to train the indigenous people to, to be their pastors and leaders and, and other things. And a lot of times it's certainly takes organization to, to help them and resources for sure. You know, as, as you going back to Niger for a moment, you know, the. What, what would be, what do you think is a long term solution there? Is, there, you know, what would, I mean, is it politics? I mean certainly preaching the gospel and all that God will accomplish what he's doing, but from a practical perspective, like even from, from us, you know, do we petition the United States government to, to intervene. I know there's been some intervention. Is it enough? Obviously not. What do you, what do you recommend?
- [21:07]
B
Well, there are a few things that I think will help. Will they. Will they ultimately bring perfect peace? I don't think so, but, but I think some things will help. There's a bill in Congress right now sponsored by Representative Riley Moore to hold Nigeria accountable. And I think that's the big thing that we can do as a government that the American government can do is hold Nigeria accountable. And that's, you know, imposing targeted sanctions. That's withholding aid in areas where people are. Government officials are not doing what they should do to protect their people. So that's, that's one way I think that can help. You know, as, as far as, you know, we've done military action which is. Has. Has made a bit of a dent. I think the, that the ultimate onus on this is going to be the Nigerian government. And it could be we're having this conversation ten years from now. We're looking at a Nigeria that split a north versus south with a Muslim north and a Christian south. And that's quite possible. But until then, we're going to keep equipping the church. We're going to keep standing with our brothers and sisters who remain faithful and who are pushing the kingdom forward, who are bringing the kingdom to their Muslim neighbors, even those who hate them. Our job is to stand with them. And that's what we want to do.
- [22:25]
A
Yep. And so again, for those that. How can they. How can they help?
- [22:29]
B
Ireachglobal.org is our website. If you go on there, you'll see a link where you can support Nigerian Christians. And the way you do that is by giving and that, that that gift will send a survival kit to a Nigerian believer, to a family who's hurting many times. These are widows, these are orphans and we get them to in their hands and they are so grateful. And again, as part is there of every survival kit is a Bible so that they can embrace and love and read the eternal hope that they have in Jesus.
- [23:01]
A
Amen. Amen. Well, Clint, I appreciate your time today and I encourage everybody to check out I reach global because I mean, you know, I've seen the stuff that Clint has been doing as well as others, the whole ministry over there. We know that our brothers and sisters need prayer. They need help. They need tangible support, support and just encouragement. So thanks for watching today. We just wanted to get this news to you that again, there's a need at the end of the day, we just want to share. There's a need and God is behind it. So thanks for watching and we'll catch you next time.