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Prophecy Watchers
From Megaliths to Revelation | What the Stars Reveal About the Last Days | Mondo Gonzales
00:58:39
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- [00:00]
Interviewer
So I wanted to talk about a few things today, and probably what I want to concentrate on, to start with, is your understanding of astronomy. The San19 project. Before I get into any questions, perhaps you could tell our audience a little bit about that.
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Dr. Michael S. Heiser
Oh, for sure, yeah. The, as you mentioned, the. In the intro there, which I appreciate have a lot of background, again, in archeology and biblical archaeology. Dear Eastern archeology, it's been. It's been a passion of mine for a long time. And then, of course, I've had a passion for astronomy. And the Lord has allowed us to create a Psalm 19 project, which the heavens declare the glory of God and the skies above show forth his handiwork. And so we have a very nice observatory. We actually have several now we have several people in our group where we have nice equipment and we take photographs of the sky and in Idaho and Oklahoma here, and then also in Virginia. And then we're just getting ready, honestly, to move some of our best equipment to New Mexico up on a remote observatory site, 7,500ft elevation, which is better for skies. The seeing is there is phenomenal. I was there a few weeks ago to check it out, and we're going to be moving against some of our best equipment there. So perfectly dark skies, which are very rare anymore. But so our ability to do more research and to take photographs is. Is going to be enhanced, which we're excited about. But I love the idea, too, of. Of really what's known as archaeoastronomy, where you look at, you know, archeological context, but looking at how ancient cultures examine the skies. And so I, I love seeing that come together, which is two of my loves and passions. Well, we.
- [01:44]
Interviewer
I remember we were doing research, it was actually for Elie Marzulli when he was about to do a documentary over here. And we were going around the megalithic structures in Ireland, of which there are a lot. You know, throw a stool and you hit one. And one of the things, we had a guide taken us and shown us these things. And one of the things that he pointed out is that they are all lined up in an astronomical fashion. Obviously, you have things like Bruno Boyne, which is lined up for the direct line of the sunlight to come in and open up the cavern. But interestingly, he noted that all of these. There's sort of a valley in Ireland that has all of these megalithic structures, and they're all lined up, excuse me, to the constellation Cygnus, you know, the. And I'm wondering if there's anything sort of Maybe ancient world. In times I look at Cygnus and I know that in the Egyptian mythology there's a connection there with Isis and the Thoth. And I wonder if there's anything to say that, you know, maybe the, there's been a route across this sort of plane, you know, across the Earth from sort of some sort of exodus that has allowed for that, I guess, ideology to continue.
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Dr. Michael S. Heiser
Yeah, I think that's, it's 100%. There's no doubt when you look almost anywhere, they're these. It's again, it's almost ubiquitous that these ancient sites are often or most often connected with some elements of the sky. And there's obviously religious connections for sure, Mesoamerican archeology, again, even down in South America, Peru, of course, into the Middle East. The, the challenge that you, that you come across in all this is the connection. So within astronomy, because this is a very interesting point, is because of what is known as the procession of the equinoxes, which is very well known. It's this cycle of 26,700 years, 25,700 years. It's right in that range that the skies shift a little bit because the idea of is the, what's known as the, the, the north celestial axis. So it's this. Imagine a long pole going through the Earth's thing going north, pointing north and south, and then the Earth is spinning on it. Well, that point going north, because of the wobble of the Earth, you're seeing that point shift. And so, like, for example, I do this and I have to be very, very precise on it because I take astrophotography. There's something called having your telescope to be polar aligned. So when you're, when you're polar aligned, of course, then everything is, is visually is, is circling like this. Well, when I go to polar align it, it has to be very precise. And so you always have an offset because you don't just go look at the North Star, you have this offset. And so the offset is different than from the year 2000. And hey, it's only been 25 years. But it makes a difference in the precision of your photographs with how good you are. Polar line. So all that's to say is that the North Star hasn't always been directly north. It has been shifting like this. And it's well known. And so what that does is it's not, it's not, it's not like completely night and day is like a pole shift, but it's enough to change in certain locations. You might not see Sirius as an example because Sirius will be below the horizon depending on your latitude. Um, so in that sense you have several things. When we talk about any of these celestial comparisons or correlations, the sun is the same. So if you're talking about a, a summer solstice or an equinox or even the lunar sandstile schedule, which is 18.62 years, those are going to change. But if you're trying to match it to the heavens or a constellation, you gotta know what's your latitude and what's your time, because that is going to be a change. So the archaeological site is going to be what time did they match this up? And that's very cool because if you can match up, for example, we see certain things within the Great Pyramid, it'll match up with looking out towards Orion or the belt of Orion very specifically, or to a certain star series as an example. And it'll be at a certain latitude, at a certain altitude, at a certain time only. So that'll help you kind of pinpoint some of the, some of the clocks.
- [06:25]
Interviewer
Do you think then if we go back a few thousand years, or even if we go back 5,000 years, you know, we look at some of these megaliths, did they have knowledge of this? Like, was this. Because you look, one of the things that's coming to mind at the minute is Go Tefe and Go Te is obviously, you know, know their dating is a little bit longer and it seems to have been in terms of the lining up of things and, and the structure, build, that there was some sort of advanced awareness certainly of building, but also of the stars. Would they have had this kind of knowledge?
- [07:03]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
You know, it's, there's no doubt. You do see, Gobekli Tepe is a little bit longer in the sense it's, you know, it's, it's 8,000 to basically 9,600, you know, B.C. so quite a bit, quite a long time ago in the sense of at a couple thousand years and now you're up to 12,000 whether they understood fully the procession of the equinox. That's, that's, how do you know? That's hard to know in the sense of the archeology there, because the archeology there, there's not a strong consensus that it is specifically aligned with the heavens. There's, there's even some debate between the archaeologists, different, different ones about how much it has even with the, the sun and, and, and maybe the, the lunar standstill schedule. So that one's kind of an outlier. But there is no doubt when you get to Egypt in some of these other ones that they understood the procession. Now how they understood this 22nd 6000 year cycle is really, they would have just had to examine the way that things shifted over millennia. So they would have to keep various records. Maybe it's in their folklore or whatever. But because Egypt especially has a lot more writings within hieroglyphics and stuff, there's more records or Gobekli Tepe is like the snapshot in time. There's not any written records. Even the glyphs that are there are very primitive. They're very limited. Again, as in comparison to even Mesoamerica. The Mayans, the Aztecs, they, they had a lot more sophistication, but there's a lot more records. So within that, either way, if you go back to 2000 BC, 3000 BC or earlier, and they understood this stuff, which is phenomenal. And so they were able to see how again the, that the wobble. They realize there's something going on here as it relates to the north because they could easily see, hey, things are shifting. You, you go back to, you know, 2000, 3000 BC and Thuban of, was the North Star or even Vega, so they could see those things.
- [09:24]
Interviewer
The Draco constellation, isn't it?
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Dr. Michael S. Heiser
Yes.
- [09:26]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [09:27]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
Yeah. So it's pretty. That to me is, is, is outstanding. But you know, in our world we, unless you're into really, I would say probably astrophotographers are probably some of the best because even PhD astronomers and astrophysics, they don't. I remember being in college and I was, I was, you know, very, very much into the constellations and out visually looking. Well, I remember going to my astronomy professor at the time and we had a planetarium show. And so I was talking to him and he goes, as I was telling him all the stuff that I was doing, you know, and he goes, would you mind testing the other students in the planetarium on the constellations? Because I don't know any. And I was like, really? And he goes, I don't, we don't. We just point there. We, we go there. We look. We don't, we don't go out and look at the stars much anymore. We know the names of the constellations. But going out there and pointing it out, I go, oh man, this is great. He goes, I'll give you an A.
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Interviewer
You.
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Dr. Michael S. Heiser
And then you could test everybody else. It was a lesson learned in the sense that even the, the professionals today, they don't often do That, I mean, they've heard of all of them. But so the average person today we don't go out. I mean, the most average person doesn't go out and look at the stars. But back then there's no light pollution. So everything. Everybody understood and you couldn't. It was overwhelming. Right? You have your children, whatever. And, and of course they had the astronomers. Everybody's out looking at the stars every night. So you would say, oh, what's that? That's different. That wasn't there. That's something new planet or whatever.
- [11:01]
Interviewer
Well, let's start a fight in the comments, right? If they are understanding this wobble in this Earth, this cycle of 25,000 years, does this point to an older Earth? Right, so this is rather than, you know, the, the 6,000 years, obviously, Ki. Tepe. And that kind of throws a spanner in the works anyway. But does this put onto an older Earth?
- [11:29]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
You know, there's no doubt that the, if you look at the archeology. Well, let me say it this way. So let's talk about the, the, the options. You have some that are like Hugh Ross as an example. He's a, he's a Christian astrophysicist. Reasons to believe is his, I think his, his ministry. He believes in billions of years. Okay, well then on the opposite side, you got all the young Earth creationists, which are basically 6,000 years only. And then you have others that are in the middle that are. Well, it's maybe not billions, but it's not a hard fast 6000. And so when you have, let's say that most of that would be like carbon 14 dating as an example has at the max 50,000 years, where it can be registered as being accurate within archaeology. So Gokli tepe's example is 12,000 years ago. Well, well, that still fits in the realm of, of a younger Earth scenario. And so that doesn't really violate or doesn't promote evolution or billions, billions of years. Okay, so people can fight about that, but there's no doubt at, for example, Echobekli Tepe, one of the strongest, and it's not perfect, but one of the strongest dating methods that they use There are is carbon 14 dating. They're looking at bones, they're looking at other organic material. You need carbon. So you can't really date a stone, but they'll look at any other. You know, you see this in Israel a lot of times they love olive pits, you know, olive pits, because they'll find those and they can date those, etc. So that's what you have at Gobekli Tepe is a very strong archaeological dating with. Through carbon 14 dating. And then they'll connect that with other surrounding area sites that have an insistent and those, I would say, stratigraphy, the layers that you have. And Gobekli Tepe is very clear as well in that it has layers, it has primitive archaeology, has primitive practicing where some of the stones were, you could practice, some of them are left undone. So you could tell it wasn't just this perfect site. So in that sense, people, people that are hard and fast to 6,000 years, they're going to have a trouble with that, because in the Bible, they're going to assume a lot of things in the Bible that the Bible's genealogies are. There's no gaps in them. And so again, there's, like you said, let the fight begin. But nevertheless, there is at least there in most of the stuff in the Middle East. Gobekli Tepe is very specific because it is considered one of the oldest sites for megalithic structures that exist in the entire world.
- [14:11]
Interviewer
Could it be. Because I know that certain people in the community would, and I'm open and I have taught on this, but could it be a Cuckoo blacky tapio itself be a Babel possibility, like the Tower of Babel? Yeah, yeah.
- [14:32]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
Well, the, I think the challenge that you would have with that is, number one, the location. Because the Bible does tell us about the Tower of Babel being over in Shinar.
- [14:41]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [14:42]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
So that would be. If you look at the difference, you're probably, man, you're probably 500 at least 500 miles away, maybe even more. Yeah. Because Gobekli Tepes in what we understand is eastern Turkey today, in, in, in that area. And the distance probably would be so great because you're look, you'd be looking more towards the east and there's no doubt that the, the even idea of the, the etymology of Babel in a Babylon is definitely what we would call into Mesopotamia rather than being up in the, in the Turkish region, because it's, there's just. There is a very clear line of separation within the archeology and even the history there. So I think you'd have a hard time convincing any of the archeologists, biblical or non, that it would be over that way. Because plus you think about the, the, the layer of, or the, the way the working. How do I say it, the structure of the site itself, it doesn't lend itself to some grand, massive building project like what you would have of a normal ziggurat because ziggurats are well known of course in, in, in, in Neo Babylon or even Old Babylonian iconography. So that's well known. But you don't really see that in all of the other, there's other tepes over there. If you say go back, there's other areas. So that would be a little challenging, I think, to, for, for the ak, the location, the dating, even the dating of what you have in secular, I mean we're talking about the Bible, but in secular Babylonian or Assyrian archaeology, those Zigra types or even the Babylonian types, Babel Towers are going to be far later than Gobekli Tepe.
- [16:30]
Interviewer
Yeah. So let me try. This is the way my thinking's going here. So you have in the Irish megalithic structures that we visited and the name of Ishworms as well, a lot of them are pointed towards Cygnus. And then a lot of the ones like you mentioned, Sirius are very Dog star. Is this because both of those constellations in Egyptian mythology are connected to Isis? Cygnus is connected to Isis and Thoth, Sirius is connected to Isis as well. Is this, could this sort of whole alignment, this, you know, this astronomical archeological alignment be based off a religious purpose? Could it be sort of, you know, for the point of like if you take the Northern Cross, you know, and it's lined up there, I know in the new age, it's alone, it's seen as a place of crossing over, you know, to another world. So it kind of gets me thinking that there's a religious element behind this.
- [17:39]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
Oh what? There's 100%. Because there's no doubt that it is just again, it's ubiquitous in ancient religion, almost every one of them, to try to take their religion and associate it, its historical or ancient connections with the heavens. And so as we know, most of those religions worshiped the heavens. This is why in Deuteronomy God was very strict about the Israelites not worshiping the host of heaven. They did it anyway. And so we also know that these fallen angels or other evil non human beings intelligence have sought to associate themselves with specific constellations because it just makes good sense. Yeah. And the amazing thing too is when you look at Cygnus, the Northern Cross, it's also seen as a swan. There are. Cygnus is what we, when you look at it, if you, if you have the right skies, it's, it's within the, the, the plane of the Milky Way. So if you, when you look up and if you can see the Milky Way, Cygnus is right there, beautiful, fully in line with it. And so I am waiting for Cygnus to come up, which comes up pretty strong in about April and, and then comes up because it's, it's, it's rich, it's got a lot of nebulae in it. It's, it's the best place to photograph, especially right around the actual constellation of Cygnus itself. So when you look at that, this very rich, bright, especially in ancient times part of the sky, it looks alluring, there's no doubt about it. And then even if you look at Orion, as we know Orion is filled with a lot of up nebulosity as well. Lots of great images there. And in ancient times, again, very, very dark people with good eyes. It's not as good as Cygnus, but nevertheless Orion is super well known. It's got its belt, it's got the sword, he's a fighter, he's got his bow, whatever. There's no doubt the iconography that you have of the constellations, especially the Zodiac, 100% fully entrenched within all of religion.
- [19:59]
Interviewer
Yeah, well that would be the Maseroth as well. That would have been the sort of gospel story in the stars before it was written. And in terms of this, it's interesting for me because I keep, you know, when I'm looking at the connection and obviously, you know a lot of these sites now have a, I'll say a new age, but certainly a pagan route to it. When you look at the Isis connection, is this like. I'm thinking of Aleister Crowley here Because Aleister Crowley within his Thelema, he sort of focuses on the Isis Osiris horror story, you know, the resurrection, you know, Isis being the, the nature representative to be worshiped. Is this symbolic in terms of. If we talk about this as a spiritual warfare, if we talk about this as darkness feed light. And then you see Aleister Crowley, godfather of Satanism, modern day Satanism. Is this a case of. And this is a way out there sort of theory. Right, but these megalithic structures that go right, that are set up around the world, everywhere around the world. I know Psalm 26 talks about windows and doors from heaven, but if you talk about the Babalut connection of that being a gate of the gods, is this a way in which. Certainly ancient culture we know in Ireland would have used that as a way to get into Tir Nan Og, the otherworld. But is this kind of like a pre planned strategy from the enemy set up like strongholds, physical strongholds across the earth? And then you see a resurgence at end times. And I'm thinking of this because one of the major areas in Ireland for megalithic structures and also the area that is associated with the, is called the Gate of Hell over here. O Nagat. It's the place that Samhain or Halloween comes from. It's also the number one place in Ireland that we see UAPs. And it just, you know, the connection. So I want your opinion on that.
- [22:10]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
Oh, they, they, when you, when you study again, ancient anthropology, there's no doubt. And, and you said you were, you had an interview with Judd Burton. Yeah, yeah. So is it, is it, it's right
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Interviewer
there in the ether.
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Dr. Michael S. Heiser
Good, because he, yeah, he, he, of course, he's, he's a great scholar on this. And, and so when you look at that connection between what. Let me step back for a moment in that we know the enemy always seeks to imitate or to copy. And this is why you have again, in ancient times like Egypt, you have this idea of this trinity and involved in resurrection, as you mentioned, with Horus, Osiris and Isis. And so many people will try to, to say that that preceded the idea of death and resurrection, that preceded the, the Christian myth. And so the Christian myth is simply just hijacking the ancient Egyptian myth. But yet how much did Satan know before about the resurrection of the resurrection story? That's hard to know. But no doubt you have there a false trinity. Right. We know that in the coming, really end of the age scenario, you're going to have a false trinity with the dragon, the Antichrist and the false prophet. So you have then there's no doubt between ancient history and the modern occult, they are going to seek to res, to resurrect, to bring back a lot of these ancient ideas which when we look at Egypt, think about in the Bible, what we know of Egypt, we know a little bit. We certainly don't have a full comprehensive story. But what we know is that when Moses shows up on the scene to, to, to let my people go, well, he throws down his, his rod, you know, his staff and it becomes a snake. Well, the Egyptians, Egyptian occult leaders are like, big deal and they throw down their staff. So you think about the real power and the real connection that they had with the occult and what they worshiped. So then, then when you look at the grand structures that are built all, all the things around the world, especially in, again, everywhere, everywhere, it doesn't matter pictures, right? They're building these structures in order to glorify and to worship their Particular handlers, which we understand again from, you know, again, even Michael Heiser's unseen realm idea that you have the idea of God at the Tower of Babel, you know, basically abandoning the Deuteronomy 32 worldview, abandoning humanity to these other lesser beings and then they turn and rebel. So what are they looking for? They're looking for worship. And of course they're bringing down their knowledge of the heavens, which is, we know that from, at least from the stories of the Book of Enoch, which I think again is why God in Deuteronomy other passages is trying to tell the people, do not worship them, don't seek them. Jeremiah 10:2, the nations are in fear of the host of heaven. And that's not how you should be. So that that comes from. This is the beauty of going from the ancient religions, okay, to ancient astronomy to ancient archeology, and then fast forwarding that all to the modern occult viewpoints and the resurrection. You see, as you mentioned with Al, are trying to bring back this new age philosophy and of course they've done a great job.
- [25:45]
Interviewer
Is the connection then in terms of these structures which we know are astronomically aligned, but this seemed to be like, you know, you take Go Tepe, there was that knowledge of how to move these stones. You take the pyramids, there was a knowledge of how to do this. And then that knowledge seemed to be vacant, you know, I like historically for so much, so many years later, it just seemed to be put on the scene, then disappear from the scene. And is that, would that be classed as the influence or maybe the impact of higher intelligence such as the watchers, the Vinha Elohim?
- [26:25]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
Yeah, there's. Okay, so that's a good question because many times you see this, this debate and again as you said, let people debate when these structures were built, were they pre flood, you know, does the, does the pyramid have evidence of water erosion on it, et cetera, et cetera? So people fight about that. But what you do see it seems to be that no doubt you have a strong post flood, I would say, immediate into civilization that these cultures go from again, the Sumerian culture, which is at least archaeologically begins right there in, in the, the ancient Near East. What we see is, let me just say it this way, if, if we, if ever, if the whole world died today and there was eight people left and they were, they were on boat again, you fast forward 500 years, like going from right now, computers, technology, rockets, everything else, and you, you brought it down to eight. It would depend, well, which eight did you bring, if it was me and my three daughters and their husbands and us eight, I can't imagine that in 500 years we'd have rocket ships and computers again because that knowledge base is not in US 8. Right. So then you think how much knowledge then was lost pre flood and put into Noah his wife and his three sons and, and their, and their daughters. So but what you, what you do see is Immediately again Genesis 11, you have the Tower of Babel and then you have this explosion, at least archaeologically of all these cultures go, I mean Egypt, Egypt goes way back, I mean 3000 BC plus so and sophisticated building. And of course Gobekli Tepe, that's, that's again hard to reconcile with some of the dating. But it's not that it's impossible. We just, we, we gotta know. So how much of this then is post flood knowledge? Did the angels come down? Did they provide more information? Did they make these swaps? But they obviously had the knowledge of the building of these things. And so I find it very fascinating to go, hmm, they're bringing in. What you do see is an explosion of an, of the occult in, in Babylon with the Tower of Babel, their whole purpose, no doubt, right there immediately. And then it spreads all the way around the world like you mentioned all the different places. How is there this consistency? It's pretty fascinating.
- [28:54]
Interviewer
Well, what would your opinion be? I think it was last year, the, the apparent coils or spirals underneath the pyramids. Is that, is that an anomaly? Is it, is it real? Is it, is it a higher technology?
- [29:14]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
Well, okay, that's, that's a great question in that you asked, is it real? Well, in my archeological background I have done some, definitely some work using technology, you know, ground penetrating radar and other forms of non invasive technology. And I can tell you that in my experience, a lot of that technology or a lot of the data that you get from it, again, you're getting a reading on a screen and, and, and, and I find it interesting that if you look at the original readings that they did with this, you're looking, you're like, and then you see the, the, the, the computer generated image that you see all over the, you're like, you went from that to that. So what I would say is right now the, the wisdom of the archaeological method is that's great. I, I, I, I appreciate the, the scans, but until you excavate and you, you can correlate or corroborate something that in with, with a shovel, I remain very, very skeptical because What I've seen in my own, like we, we've had things where, oh, this shows that here it is. There's, there's a structure I dug down. Nothing there. Whoa. And so again, there's anomaly. And so they've done several repeated scans and they're, they are dog. They're being actually very dogmatic in saying no, but to show these 2,000 foot plus long cylinders with coils around them, all super real nice, again, computer generated along with a building on the bottom. Listen, I, I'll tell you what, I'd be the first one to go there and help excavate, okay? I really would. But I am extremely skeptical because, so, so that's, it's hard to answer the question, except theoretically or even hypothetically that if that was the case. I'll tell you what, if that is the case, this is, this would blow the entire world of archeology and history completely. It's not even a paradigm shift. It's a complete 100% rock our world shift. To have that level of sophistication and structure building to go thousands and thousands of feet down below. And the pyramid is just the pyramids, which are pretty amazing sitting on the top. That again, there's no words to describe what that would do to our understanding of humanity in history.
- [32:01]
Interviewer
Well, to go a different rate. Do you think that in terms of if there is like a global elite, if there is a cabal of sorts, do you think that there's a belief in all of these things? Like we know if we go back and we look at the likes of Madame Blavatsky, she, yes, Luciferian, but also an ancient alien believer, and that continued, you know, into the rest of theosophy. I would argue it would continue, continued into Heinrich Himmler's view of Ariosophy, but very much dominated on like an Atlantean myth and all of that, do you think that there are those in power who have the mindset that all of this is real and why we're looking to the sky is for this extraterrestrial visitor, this archon, this, you know, these, these groups of higher beings, this externalization of hierarchy, as Alice Abili says, you know, what are your thoughts?
- [33:02]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
Oh, 100%. In those of us who are Bible believers, we understand that the scripture is true. The scripture is limited. We understand that it doesn't give us a play by play of all of the cultures of ancient history or even all of the machinations of the enemy and what he's done. Okay, so we have a certain level of anchor in the truth of God and that it's not meant for deception. Well, I mean, enter in the enemy. And so even though he has his deception disciples and, and, and how much truth does he really give them versus how is he using little, little bits and pieces in order, in order to frame a narrative that he wants them to believe. And so for the most, I guess what I'm saying is that if you look at most of these occult leaders, we would say they're deceived. They're deceived in so many ways, right? So they're deceived in their ancient astronaut or ancient alien theory or narrative, they're deceived. But however, what they're not deceived with is the reality of their connection with these players, with these evil entities. So when they channel, they're getting something. So it's actually they will strongly believe that Lucifer is the hero. Right? Again, the whole world is turned upside down. And so in their mind, those entities have proven their existence to them. And therefore they are not wrong in their experience in that they've experienced interacting with something and even being a medium for presenting that information. However, the information that is being presented, they're completely have bought into it 100%. So and this is why, and no different in ancient times, this is why they would, they would. Again, when they're, when the Egyptians are throwing down their, their staff and it becomes a snake, that's real thing. So then when they go out and produce these, these megalithic structures, whoever to worship, they're thinking, man, this is awesome. We are connecting with these, the gods, and it's real. So in the same way today when you look at these elite, what are they after? They're being given a narrative in order to seek to implement in the global world with the idea that they are being, that they're tools and they're bringing about whatever age this is. And, and so in that mind, 100% do these people believe. And I would say, and they have real evidence to show that they are being led by genuine entities.
- [35:40]
Interviewer
Well, in that case, let's bring it around to the end times, because obviously Alice A. Bailey's take is that in the Externalization of Hierarchy, 2025 was pointed out as the year. From that or from that year, you would see the externalization. By that we're talking about archons, principalities, powers, rulers of the age. In our opinion, the hierarchy or the B' Naiha Elohim on the se. Yet whenever I look at signs in the skies, as in the Genesis 1:14 signs and times, and it centers around the last days. I always see that in line with the second coming. And the reason I say this is because I know that people a few years ago were looking at the Revelation 12 sign. Yeah. And they were getting fixated. But whenever I read Joel 2 or when I look at Matthew 24, 29 and 30, I associate that with the second coming as opposed to pre tribulation moment. Is there a danger of people being deceived in the Christian world if they don't assign the right significance to the signs in the heavens?
- [37:03]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
Oh, that's a beautiful question. And I would say let's rewind. You know, we're, we're in, we're in January of 26. So let's rewind to January of 2024. Well, what was happening in January of 24? Well, previous to that in, in, in August of 27 or in August of 2017, you had the first eclipse. That was the solar eclipse that was coming across the United States. And then I'm speaking about from America. And then, and then of course, in April of, of 2024, you had the other one coming up. And what did it make? It made an X. Right. So X marks the spot the United States is being marked. And so if you go to January 24th, I remember, man, I was, it was pretty constant where people were making predictions, they were making associations. These were all the signs. This is it. The Bible says, don't. Haven't you read Luke 21? There's going to be signs in the sun and the moon, the stars, heavens. It's going to be. This is it. These are all omens of what's coming and the predictions of, of what would happen and what the, the eclipse of April of 2024 would, would be producing. This is it. And you know what? It's millions upon millions of Christians sadly, sadly gullible. Gullible. They, they believed every word of it. I mean, some. And I was trying to give warnings and man, people are upset. Know they were calling me a naysayer and a nonbeliever. And I'm like, all right, well, I'm just telling you, you know, from what Scripture says. And so, and many of them quoting Genesis 1, 14, 16, these are signs, sign signs. Well, in fact, I wrote a lot about this in that that's not what the Hebrew says at all. It's not a signs that they're not omens at all. These are very natural events. They're not signs of judgment. But so when you ask, I like what you said that same thing. I got a cough. Is that when Jesus is talking about Luke 21 in, in the. Or in all the discourse, most of those soup, most of those heavenly events are going to be inside the tribulation period. And no doubt read Revelation 8, read Revelation 16, you can read over and over and over how God is going to shake the heavens. The heavens. And this is the interesting thing that most of those things, like for example, you'll hear about the, the blood moon, the moon turning to, to red. And we see there's gonna be one here in March next month for us. But other things you'll see but this in order for a lunar eclipse to happen, which is where you get a blood moon, that's a normal natural event. The sun is there, it's shining and the light is circling around the Earth and it's causing that red hue on basically the eclipsed moon. Other things you have what, the sun is dark, the moon is dark, the constellations are dark. Isaiah 13, Revelation 6. So these are not normal. These are 100% supernatural. So I think I agree with you that if that's what you were saying, that I think most of these things are not going to be pre Trib events. Yeah, they're going to be inside. And therefore, I think as a Christian who believes and is waiting for the Lord's return, we, we should not give in to the, the sensationalism and the hype that we saw. I saw within again, as, as I mentioned, the, the 24 eclipse because all those predictions, none of them came to be zero. It was a normal, beautiful eclipse. I got lots of pictures of it was awesome and it was to the glory of God, but it was not meant as an omen at all.
- [40:55]
Interviewer
Well, what about the thing that was sensational of recent times, atlas 3i. So what's your opinion on that?
- [41:05]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
Well, it's interesting too that, you know, it was discovered not too long ago in, in basically July, June, July of last year. And man, the ancient alien theory, the New Agers, they are jumping on the bandwagon of this baby like Dodomora. Well, it has now. It started coming in, it went through Mars and then it came around the sun and then now it's on its way towards Jupiter and which will happen probably around March. And then it's, you know what it's doing after that, it's leaving, it's setting out. And so you have a lot of the sensationalism hype, primarily from Avi Loeb, he's a Harvard astrophysicist. You know, but, but he, he was very, he was pushing the envelope. If you asked him again, even on his scale, do you believe this is, these are aliens, he'd say, you know, four out of ten that it's, that it's natural. So he wasn't even leaning towards that. It, it was 6 out of 10 being that. And so, but what he simply was doing and he's, he's the, he's the director of the Galileo project, which is, is a project that is meant to be scanning the heavens for anomalies, hoping that there'll be some sort of connection. So he has a little bit of bias, there's no doubt about it. But the question is, what happened to it? Well, it's leaving, it's on its way. What happened? Well, nothing.
- [42:28]
Interviewer
I was talking to Pate Pete Garcia and I was, he was sort of saying that the thing that he was looking for was kind of the pull ball effect that on its exit, that if it hits a, you know, one of the asteroid belts that does that knock something off course? Would that be a pos. A possibility? I have to keep muting myself because I keep going.
- [42:54]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
The. There's no doubt, there's always a possibility of an asteroid hitting another asteroid, especially one that is, let me say it this way, the solar system, of course we have the asteroid belt. They've been around for a long time, so they have. There's always things that are still bumping in all their, their orbits, but for the most part it is very stable. But you bring anything in comet or an asteroid like this pretty big one too, into the solar system and you have the potential of disrupting something. Now it's not going to change off the whole orbits of planets, that's for sure. These things are small, but could it go through and interrupt enough that would then make their way around in order to come later to Earth? 100%, there's no doubt. I mean the, the solar system as we know has been a violent place. Just look at the Moon. You can see all the craters there. There's craters on Earth going back to 1994. You had a comet, Comet Levy hitting Jupiter. That was pretty cool. Watch. So there's no doubt that the solar system, even though it's a relatively stable place and calm place, it has the potential, especially when you have something like that coming in to disrupt 100%.
- [44:05]
Interviewer
Well, to take the theory of the late great Tom Horn and Apophis, could that be a scenario? So obviously the date that everybody centered upon are centers upon is 13-4-2029. But I know that there's a, there's a date in the 2000 and 30s. Is it around 2036? And then there's 2068, I think from memory, could it be, you know, I know that they're all predicting like a what, what I sort of a flyby, you know, that it could knock out satellites and things like that. But could something like that have that pull ball effect if it, if it collides with something else? Like it collides within another asteroid or.
- [44:50]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
Oh yeah. So this is the, this is the fun thing because you know, before, like you mentioned the late Tom Horn, before he passed away, I was able to interview him several times on this exact topic and with his book Orwood and Messenger. And so the fascinating thing about it is when, when you, when I asked him about this is what, I'll give you this. When what he said was that, and he's, he's a man of integrity. I have no reason to distrust what he said. He said the Lord revealed that Apophis is wormwood. Okay, so then, but what I, so then in his mind he, he decided to go look it up and he saw April 13, 2029. But one of the things that I asked him was, did the Lord tell you, did he give you a date? And he said, well, no, he didn't give me a date. And I said, did you know that it's coming back in 2036? And he didn't, he didn't know that. And so what the fascinating thing to me is, is, and you, as you mentioned, a 2068. And it was even, it even had had a, I wouldn't call it a recent flyby, but it was here in 2021, 2013, was discovered in 2004. So there's a variety of, of things. But what it, what we know is, and, and I have, I put a video of this up somewhere. I don't remember where it is now, but people have seen it where Neil Degrasse Tyson is discussing this and he says very clearly early on that when it comes through in 2029, that if it hits a certain keyhole, that it will almost guarantee that on the 20th that it'll hit. Because there's no doubt right now, if you look at the trajectories, Apophis is set to be about 19, 000 miles away. Well, when you look at astronomy, the moon is240,000. Okay, so that's, that's, you know, 8% of the moon's distance. And certainly, for example, James Webb, you know, James Webb is out, you know, at these Lagrange points. Basically a million. A million miles out or what, you know, or not a million. I didn't say million. It's out at these points where you have. Way out there, you have other geosynchronous satellites which are basically 24,000 miles out. So when it comes in at 20,000 below or 20,000 or 18,000 miles, it has the potential to hit all kinds of things. All these satellites that are there, most of the lights that we have are the, the, the LEOs. The LEOs, the low earth orbits, you know, they're up at 200, 250, 400 right around that area, 600. The space station's at 250, 250 miles. So those are safe, but those ones that are the geosynchronous ones. Absolutely. You have all kinds of potential for trouble and to get it off course, because according to what the current trajectory, which they can't guarantee, is that when the next time it comes around, it'll be 20 million. So it'll be way out there. Yeah, 2036. But as Tyson said, Neil August Tyson, you cannot guarantee 2036 because it hasn't come through in the 2029. So any discussion about that second is absolutely worthless. And I think that's important.
- [48:20]
Interviewer
Well, I'm going to go against that and try and pick your brain and just be like, we do not date set. That's, that's a, that's a given. But sometimes it's, it's a little bit fun to have, a bit of fun to conjecture. Yeah, absolutely. I'm looking. If you've got 2016, then the way I see in my head, that would fit the scene timeline in terms of the last jubilee age that Dr. Ken Johnson talks about. If you hit 2036, then that kind of fits the sort of idea that once we get to the 2032, 2033 mark, the time that 2000 years since Christ, Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, that it would hit that mark and then obviously 2020 night kind of. If you're talking wormwood, I would say 2029 wouldn't work biblically now because of the year we're in 2026. So conjecture, nobody's going to hold you to it. If you were to think 2036 or 2068, which one would you say? If that is wormwood, if we take the standpoint that apophisis were wormwood, where would you lean to I certainly, and
- [49:41]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
maybe I'm probably biased because at 2068 I'll be like 96 years old, 94, which I don't know. Will I still be around? I don't know.
- [49:54]
Interviewer
The.
- [49:55]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
I think that based on what we see with all these other events and the, and the progression that we've been seeing really since 2020, or even if you want to add in 2015,
- [50:09]
Interviewer
the
- [50:09]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
edit, of course, if you put it all these together, the, the, the overall globalist agenda, we, we talk about all the time. 2030, 2030, 2030, the agenda 2030. So I think that, that their numbers don't necessarily mean anything because God's sovereign. But to me, the 2033, 2032, 33 range is far more, I would say accurate than a 2068 in my, in my mind, because I think the other thing, the other challenge that we have is. And, and, and you people can go look online where Tom Horn was being interviewed by Derek Gilbert and originally their original discussion of this and Tom is talking and then Derek's looking online and then at the time, this was a few years ago, he's like, I want to say something. And Tom's like, yeah. And he goes, well, if you go back three and a half years from April 13th of 2029, you come into October of 2025 in the, in the, in the potential festivals, the fall feasts. And so they were kind of blown away, which is, you know, what led to Zeitgeist 2025, a lot of his books. So here we are. Right. We're way past that now. So like you said, that seems to be out the window as it relates to having any sort of relevance and, and, but never again, they weren't predicting dates, they were just speculating out loud like we are.
- [51:28]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [51:28]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
So when you look at that April or the, the March of 2012 of 2036, what we don't know is this. And this is where even at the time, you can't say In Revelation 8, when Wormwood arrives, that it's arriving exactly at the midpoint of the tribulation. Yeah. So that's, that's problematic already. So then simply to try to subtract 1260 days before that is going to lead you somewhere. So we can't do that. But nevertheless, is, does it come like maybe four years into the tribulation, in the seven year tribulation? If that's the case, then you. This, the 2032, 2033 lines up really nice. I mean, it does,
- [52:16]
Interviewer
I would agree in the sense that you're looking at. You know, I've, I've been doing programs and interviews about the World Economic Forum and the pre, the meeting there last week and, and just sort of like going through, because I watched a ridiculous amount, but it was, it was going through some of the stuff and it was like a trailer for what's coming. You know, you have Yuval, Noah Harari talking about AI becoming agents, going from tool to agent being and having agentic AI, in other words, an autonomous decision making process program. Now then it talks about, then he was talking about AI being the master of words and effectively the top theologian in the world. And we'll be able to dictate what religion is and that's when we'll have ecumenalism and we'll have the combination of all these world religions into I believe the harlot system. And then the next thing he brought up was AI could create an economic system that most people can't compute. And then you hear Larry Fink, Ursula von der Leyen, Christine Lagarde, Ken Griffin, all talking about tokenization, saying tokenization is the best thing since sliced bread. Everybody needs to be on a world ledger. We need to have control over everything. And I'm just thinking, have they opened Revelation 13 and thought, oh, one world religion, one world trade system? You know, it's, it's. I, I think that's again, it's conjecture. But in that. Right. If that's the case, this will be my last question. I don't want to keep you. I know you're at work right now. So if the majority of the major prophetic signs in the heavens, all of the ones that we see in scripture are in that tribulation period, is there still a benefit for us to look to the heavens in that way, to look at astronomy from a biblical perspective?
- [54:11]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
Well, because we have some things, again, like Apophis, taking that at straight face value, what Tom Horn said, there is wisdom then in watching it, because why it's periodic, right. We have a time frame on it. But in the sense of, for example, you look in, in again in Revelation 16, where the sun, it looks like it goes nova, right? So it brightens and then as it brightens, that's going to increase the heat and people are burned. And so that's pretty amazing. And, and to watch. But I would say that if we look at the heavens now, again, I can look at, we looked at three Ayalis, we got pictures of it and Apophis, when it comes, we'll get pictures of it. But in the sense of predictive power of anything that we might look in the heavens right now would be a little bit sketchy because we don't know, we don't know how relevant those would be because again specifically. And well here's the other risk that we have is that you have people that believe that the seals are opened, that we're currently in maybe even a gap period of time or whatever. And so they're thinking, they're looking for maybe sixth seal. With the sixth seal there's no doubt is very cosmically astronomical. And they're looking. And so the problem that you have is if you did have something that happened now, they would interpret it as being that the rapture's wrong or the pre trib rapture is wrong or whatever that might be. And we're in it now and let's buckle down. And so I would say that look, I'm going to look at the heavens no matter what. And then, and I would be happy to modify my views. It would be very unusual for me to go off a pre trib view, but I don't think I would need to. But nevertheless there are others. Let me just say it this way. You look at others like Arnold fructum and Arnold, Dr. Arnold Frankenbaum, his book Footsteps of the Messiah, one of the best books ever you could have on, on prophecy. And he certainly believes in a preacher rapture. And but what he would say is that these, there are, let me just say it this way. There's two groups primarily within the dispensational framework. You have those that believe that the, all of the birth pangs that you have in Matthew 24 are only inside the seven year tribulation. You have others like Fructum on that say no, no, no, no, hold on a minute. The, the, the basically kingdom against kingdom, nation against nation. You know, you other those earthquakes etc, Those began in 1917 with World War. Because he's looking at it from a Jewish frame of reference, right, that, that these are footsteps of the Messiah. Because in the language when you have kingdom against kingdom, world wars, not just skirmishes, but world wars, those are going to be the signs of the footstep, of the size. So for him the tribulation, the, the birth pangs that are leading up to the tribulation and continue in, they started in 1917. So for him, if you to take his framework, the idea of seeing signs in the heavens prior to the seven year period, he's gonna have no problem with that.
- [57:28]
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah.
- [57:29]
Dr. Michael S. Heiser
So the real question though is. And here's the drawback, like the eclipse. Well, the eclipse was normal. There was nothing unusual about that. The sun getting hot. That's a, that's, that's a. It could be a natural event in the sense of it going nova part of its cycle. But that's be very unusual. You know, comets, okay, those are, those are usual but them hitting the Earth. So I think when Jesus says it, you see things getting out of the, out of the ordinary, hitting the Earth, causing these things. So that's a long winded answer to say. I guess you could go both ways. Should we. Look, here's the key thing for me though, this is what I would say that even if a comet hit the Earth, okay, the challenge we have is what does it mean as soon as we start assigning meaning to it. I'm not a prophet of God. And have comets hit the Earth in the past that were not part of the tribulation period, clearly asteroids, clearly. So we can't immediately just assign a meaning to it or a direct, direct fulfillment of, oh, that's Revelation 8:5 or 8:7.