Provoked with Darryl Cooper and Scott Horton

Episode 31: Middle East Wars & Prospects for More

Date: January 24, 2026
Hosts: Darryl Cooper & Scott Horton
Guest: Joe Solis Mullen (Libertarian Institute)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Darryl and Scott dive deep into the complex landscape of Middle East conflicts, U.S. foreign policy, and the evolving psychology of war both abroad and at home. They discuss the interplay of propaganda, shifting sentiments among America's political right, and intersecting economic crises. Later, they bring on economist Joe Solis Mullen for a detailed analysis of Trump’s economic record, monetary policy, inflation, and the broader implications of America's mounting national debt.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Debating Interventionism vs. Non-Interventionism: The Israel Conundrum

U.S.–Israel Relations Post-October 7th:
- Scott and Darryl critique the kneejerk, open-ended support the U.S. has given Israel following the October 7 attacks.
- Scott challenges the logic of supporting "America First" policies that are essentially driven by Israeli priorities, particularly in Syria, where the U.S. has ended up siding with bin Ladenite elements because of Israeli influence.
- Notable silence from pro-intervention debate opponents when these contradictions are pointed out.
- Scott:
  
  "Our loyalty to Israel's goals ends up putting us on the opposite side of our own damn terror war… And then he did not have an answer to that at all." [08:14]
Rise of Anti-War Sentiment on the American Right:
- Darryl observes the hardening anti-war stance among conservative Americans, especially those in military-supplying regions.
- Darryl:
  
  "If it happens, we’re the ones that are going to fight it... [the] right wing in America, you know, Appalachia, all these red states… the right wing is anti-war now and they're staying that way." [15:47]

2. Cycle of Foreign Policy Blunders & Manipulation

Reflections on Policy “Sell Jobs”:
- Lack of honest debate or adult explanation for military interventions since 2001.
- Darryl:
  
  "They want somebody to treat them like adults and actually make a case... But they don’t do that at all." [17:53]
Perennial Bullying in Foreign Policy:
- Darryl highlights his foundational principle: a dislike of bullies, which extends to seeing America acting as a global bully, especially toward states like Iran that blatantly wish to avoid war.
- Darryl:
  
  "I don’t like my country acting like a bully... if you’re trying to pick a fight again and again with a country that clearly doesn’t want to fight you." [19:41]

3. Shifting Powers in the Middle East: The Saudi–UAE Split

Background on the Yemen War & Intra-Gulf Tensions:
- Scott sets up the context: previous Saudi-UAE alliance unraveling due to proxy splits in Yemen, with both backing different factions (e.g., Saudi-backed Muslim Brotherhood vs. UAE-backed Southern Transitional Council).
Darryl’s Analysis of Gulf Realignment:
- UAE ambitions have overextended, and Saudi Arabia is asserting itself independently for the first time in decades, perhaps even militarily, as evidenced by Saudi strikes against UAE-supplied forces.
- Emergence of new regional Sunni axis: "Saudis, Egyptians, Qatar, and Turkey, plus Pakistan."
- Darryl:
  
  "You're starting to see Saudi become a lot more assertive in the region… and take more of a leadership role that they really haven’t in a long time." [28:57]

4. The Gaza Strip and Geopolitical Chess

Who Will Govern Gaza Post-War?
- Speculation over whether Turkey and Saudi Arabia's involvement in Gaza is actually a ploy to counter Netanyahu’s preferences, and what roles Qatar, Egypt, and Turkey (with ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaeda) will play.
- Scott:
  
  "This is not what [Netanyahu] wants… to have the Turks and the Saudis come in and have anything to do with the administration of the Gaza Strip." [31:44]
Analysis of Trump’s Maneuvers:
- Citing D.C. sources, Darryl recounts how Trump supposedly “called Netanyahu’s bluff," by delaying direct action against Iran, letting Israel burn intelligence networks before refusing the immediate war option.
- Darryl:
  
  “Now he can be like, hey, look, I was ready to go, I had planes in the air… and you told me to call it off, so stop bothering me.” [34:54]

[38:05] Scott & Darryl Interview Joe Solis Mullen: Trump’s Economic Record, Monetary Policy, and the National Debt

A. Monetary Inflation and Illusions of Growth

Joe:

"Monetary expansion is still going on... that's quite normal" [39:32]
- Inflation is far from licked. Much of today’s “growth” stems from expanding the monetary base, not actual productivity.
- U.S. still leads Europe in deregulation, but even pro-Trump outlets (WSJ) now note popular discontent: rising prices, collapse in affordability.

B. The Debt Trap: Can America “Grow Out of” $40 Trillion?

Trump’s Pitch:

"The economy is going to be growing so fast that the… debt isn’t going to matter…"
Joe:
“That’s highly optimistic.”
- With debt growing 6% annually and GDP at best 3%, the math is impossible without severe inflation. Only sustained surpluses and 4%+ GDP growth, paired with 5% inflation for 15 years, could stabilize things – politically impossible. [45:22]
Darryl:

“Is he just… borrowing another $10 million and putting it all on black and just hope that you can do that?” [43:52]
- Joe: Yes, that’s essentially the “Hail Mary” growth bet, but with enormous risks.

C. The Perverse Consequences of Dollar Hegemony

Keynesian Warnings, Bretton Woods, and Structural Imbalance:
- U.S. dollar reserve status artificially props up currency, incentivizing deindustrialization and endless debt.
- Joe:
  
  “Eliminating the dollar’s role as the global reserve currency is the absolutely necessary, critical step for that [reindustrialization] happening.” [49:57]

D. Structural Inequality and the Erosion of the Middle Class

The Illusion of Wealth:
- Median household income has not kept up with inflation—down in real terms from the 1970s.
- Asset bubbles (homes, stocks) driven by monetary inflation benefit a shrinking elite.
- Joe:
  
  "Median household income… in real terms… has actually fallen… from slightly over $11,000 to just over $9,500. We're just getting way poorer." [55:07]
Boomers, Housing, and Government Policy:
- Capital gains taxes and inheritance taxes create massive distortions, trapping older people in oversized homes and blocking younger families from ownership.

E. The Inevitable Reckoning

Kick-the-Can Economics:
- Political myopia prevents any real reform. De-dollarization will be painful but necessary.
- Joe:
  
  “Even if we pursued the most intelligent… de-dollarization strategy… things are going to get more expensive. But that is the right move long term. There's no question that the path we're on is completely unsustainable.” [63:28]

F. Government Bloat & Illusions of Fiscal Savings

Firing Federal Workers vs. Real Budget Cuts:
- Trump administration layoffs were symbolic, but did not dent the scope or cost drivers (entitlements, debt payments, Pentagon) of federal government.
- Joe:
  
  “[Federal layoffs] is not the problem… the purview of the government, the scope of its abilities—has any of that changed?” [86:44]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Scott, on U.S.-Israeli Policy:

"Our loyalty to Israel's goals ends up putting us on the opposite side of our own damn terror war… And then he did not have an answer to that at all." [08:14]
Darryl, on Right-Wing Antiwar Sentiment:

“Out in the country, the right wing is anti-war now and they're staying that way… it's like 70% opposition to starting another war with Iran right now.” [13:32]
Joe, on Economic Reality:

“We're broke. We're so broke. … Since 1974, the median household income has actually fallen in purchasing power from slightly over $11,000 to just over $9,500. We're just getting way poorer.” [55:07]
Darryl, on U.S. as Bully:

“I don’t like my country acting like a bully, which is kind of by definition what you are if, you know, you're trying to pick a fight again and again and again with a country that clearly doesn’t want to fight you.” [19:41]
Joe, on De-dollarization:

“Eliminating the dollar’s role as the global reserve currency is the absolutely necessary, critical step for that [reindustrialization] happening.” [49:57]

Selected Timestamps for Important Segments

[08:14] Scott's exchange on Israel, Syria, and "America First" manipulation
[13:32] Darryl analyzes the right-wing antiwar shift
[15:47] Working-class burden of U.S. wars; demand for adult explanations from leaders
[24:32] Darryl’s deep dive: Saudi Arabia, UAE, shifts in Gulf alliances
[31:44] Gaza governance speculation: the Turks, Saudis, and regional chessmanship
[38:05] Guest: Joe Solis Mullen joins (economics deep-dive begins)
[45:22] Can growth save us from the national debt?
[49:57] “De-dollarization” explained – and its necessity for U.S. reindustrialization
[55:07] “We’re just getting way poorer” – the gutting of the middle class
[63:28] The unsustainability of the current fiscal path, risk of default
[86:44] Symbolic vs. actual cuts to government size

Language & Tone

The conversation is candid, at times blunt, and blends dark humor with world-weary realism. Scott's sardonic outlook is countered by Darryl's military-influenced skepticism and Joe's academic, data-driven analysis. All three cut through elite narratives, focusing relentlessly on how policies play out for regular Americans and their real-world consequences.

Summary

This episode of "Provoked" is a panoramic, unvarnished survey of U.S. foreign and economic policy from two of the most unsparing critics on the political right—with a rigorous detour into economic realities courtesy of guest Joe Solis Mullen. The message: America’s cycle of endless wars and economic self-sabotage is unsustainable, and the default political answers—more debt, more propaganda, more war—are running out of road. On foreign policy, the hosts dissect the narratives, interests, and regional dynamics entangling the U.S. in a forever war posture, while on the home front, they expose how financial engineering, government growth, and geopolitical hubris are eroding the American dream for ordinary people.

Provoked with Darryl Cooper and Scott Horton

Episode 31: Middle East Wars & Prospects for More

Date: January 24, 2026
Hosts: Darryl Cooper & Scott Horton
Guest: Joe Solis Mullen (Libertarian Institute)

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Debating Interventionism vs. Non-Interventionism: The Israel Conundrum

U.S.–Israel Relations Post-October 7th:
- Scott and Darryl critique the kneejerk, open-ended support the U.S. has given Israel following the October 7 attacks.
- Scott challenges the logic of supporting "America First" policies that are essentially driven by Israeli priorities, particularly in Syria, where the U.S. has ended up siding with bin Ladenite elements because of Israeli influence.
- Notable silence from pro-intervention debate opponents when these contradictions are pointed out.
- Scott:
  
  "Our loyalty to Israel's goals ends up putting us on the opposite side of our own damn terror war… And then he did not have an answer to that at all." [08:14]
Rise of Anti-War Sentiment on the American Right:
- Darryl observes the hardening anti-war stance among conservative Americans, especially those in military-supplying regions.
- Darryl:
  
  "If it happens, we’re the ones that are going to fight it... [the] right wing in America, you know, Appalachia, all these red states… the right wing is anti-war now and they're staying that way." [15:47]

2. Cycle of Foreign Policy Blunders & Manipulation

Reflections on Policy “Sell Jobs”:
- Lack of honest debate or adult explanation for military interventions since 2001.
- Darryl:
  
  "They want somebody to treat them like adults and actually make a case... But they don’t do that at all." [17:53]
Perennial Bullying in Foreign Policy:
- Darryl highlights his foundational principle: a dislike of bullies, which extends to seeing America acting as a global bully, especially toward states like Iran that blatantly wish to avoid war.
- Darryl:
  
  "I don’t like my country acting like a bully... if you’re trying to pick a fight again and again with a country that clearly doesn’t want to fight you." [19:41]

3. Shifting Powers in the Middle East: The Saudi–UAE Split

Background on the Yemen War & Intra-Gulf Tensions:
- Scott sets up the context: previous Saudi-UAE alliance unraveling due to proxy splits in Yemen, with both backing different factions (e.g., Saudi-backed Muslim Brotherhood vs. UAE-backed Southern Transitional Council).
Darryl’s Analysis of Gulf Realignment:
- UAE ambitions have overextended, and Saudi Arabia is asserting itself independently for the first time in decades, perhaps even militarily, as evidenced by Saudi strikes against UAE-supplied forces.
- Emergence of new regional Sunni axis: "Saudis, Egyptians, Qatar, and Turkey, plus Pakistan."
- Darryl:
  
  "You're starting to see Saudi become a lot more assertive in the region… and take more of a leadership role that they really haven’t in a long time." [28:57]

4. The Gaza Strip and Geopolitical Chess

Who Will Govern Gaza Post-War?
- Speculation over whether Turkey and Saudi Arabia's involvement in Gaza is actually a ploy to counter Netanyahu’s preferences, and what roles Qatar, Egypt, and Turkey (with ties to the Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaeda) will play.
- Scott:
  
  "This is not what [Netanyahu] wants… to have the Turks and the Saudis come in and have anything to do with the administration of the Gaza Strip." [31:44]
Analysis of Trump’s Maneuvers:
- Citing D.C. sources, Darryl recounts how Trump supposedly “called Netanyahu’s bluff," by delaying direct action against Iran, letting Israel burn intelligence networks before refusing the immediate war option.
- Darryl:
  
  “Now he can be like, hey, look, I was ready to go, I had planes in the air… and you told me to call it off, so stop bothering me.” [34:54]

[38:05] Scott & Darryl Interview Joe Solis Mullen: Trump’s Economic Record, Monetary Policy, and the National Debt

A. Monetary Inflation and Illusions of Growth

Joe:

"Monetary expansion is still going on... that's quite normal" [39:32]
- Inflation is far from licked. Much of today’s “growth” stems from expanding the monetary base, not actual productivity.
- U.S. still leads Europe in deregulation, but even pro-Trump outlets (WSJ) now note popular discontent: rising prices, collapse in affordability.

B. The Debt Trap: Can America “Grow Out of” $40 Trillion?

Trump’s Pitch:

"The economy is going to be growing so fast that the… debt isn’t going to matter…"
Joe:
“That’s highly optimistic.”
- With debt growing 6% annually and GDP at best 3%, the math is impossible without severe inflation. Only sustained surpluses and 4%+ GDP growth, paired with 5% inflation for 15 years, could stabilize things – politically impossible. [45:22]
Darryl:

“Is he just… borrowing another $10 million and putting it all on black and just hope that you can do that?” [43:52]
- Joe: Yes, that’s essentially the “Hail Mary” growth bet, but with enormous risks.

C. The Perverse Consequences of Dollar Hegemony

Keynesian Warnings, Bretton Woods, and Structural Imbalance:
- U.S. dollar reserve status artificially props up currency, incentivizing deindustrialization and endless debt.
- Joe:
  
  “Eliminating the dollar’s role as the global reserve currency is the absolutely necessary, critical step for that [reindustrialization] happening.” [49:57]

D. Structural Inequality and the Erosion of the Middle Class

The Illusion of Wealth:
- Median household income has not kept up with inflation—down in real terms from the 1970s.
- Asset bubbles (homes, stocks) driven by monetary inflation benefit a shrinking elite.
- Joe:
  
  "Median household income… in real terms… has actually fallen… from slightly over $11,000 to just over $9,500. We're just getting way poorer." [55:07]
Boomers, Housing, and Government Policy:
- Capital gains taxes and inheritance taxes create massive distortions, trapping older people in oversized homes and blocking younger families from ownership.

E. The Inevitable Reckoning

Kick-the-Can Economics:
- Political myopia prevents any real reform. De-dollarization will be painful but necessary.
- Joe:
  
  “Even if we pursued the most intelligent… de-dollarization strategy… things are going to get more expensive. But that is the right move long term. There's no question that the path we're on is completely unsustainable.” [63:28]

F. Government Bloat & Illusions of Fiscal Savings

Firing Federal Workers vs. Real Budget Cuts:
- Trump administration layoffs were symbolic, but did not dent the scope or cost drivers (entitlements, debt payments, Pentagon) of federal government.
- Joe:
  
  “[Federal layoffs] is not the problem… the purview of the government, the scope of its abilities—has any of that changed?” [86:44]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Scott, on U.S.-Israeli Policy:

"Our loyalty to Israel's goals ends up putting us on the opposite side of our own damn terror war… And then he did not have an answer to that at all." [08:14]
Darryl, on Right-Wing Antiwar Sentiment:

“Out in the country, the right wing is anti-war now and they're staying that way… it's like 70% opposition to starting another war with Iran right now.” [13:32]
Joe, on Economic Reality:

“We're broke. We're so broke. … Since 1974, the median household income has actually fallen in purchasing power from slightly over $11,000 to just over $9,500. We're just getting way poorer.” [55:07]
Darryl, on U.S. as Bully:

“I don’t like my country acting like a bully, which is kind of by definition what you are if, you know, you're trying to pick a fight again and again and again with a country that clearly doesn’t want to fight you.” [19:41]
Joe, on De-dollarization:

“Eliminating the dollar’s role as the global reserve currency is the absolutely necessary, critical step for that [reindustrialization] happening.” [49:57]

Selected Timestamps for Important Segments

[08:14] Scott's exchange on Israel, Syria, and "America First" manipulation
[13:32] Darryl analyzes the right-wing antiwar shift
[15:47] Working-class burden of U.S. wars; demand for adult explanations from leaders
[24:32] Darryl’s deep dive: Saudi Arabia, UAE, shifts in Gulf alliances
[31:44] Gaza governance speculation: the Turks, Saudis, and regional chessmanship
[38:05] Guest: Joe Solis Mullen joins (economics deep-dive begins)
[45:22] Can growth save us from the national debt?
[49:57] “De-dollarization” explained – and its necessity for U.S. reindustrialization
[55:07] “We’re just getting way poorer” – the gutting of the middle class
[63:28] The unsustainability of the current fiscal path, risk of default
[86:44] Symbolic vs. actual cuts to government size

EP:31 - Middle East Wars & Prospects for More

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Summary

Provoked with Darryl Cooper and Scott Horton

Episode 31: Middle East Wars & Prospects for More

Date: January 24, 2026 Hosts: Darryl Cooper & Scott Horton Guest: Joe Solis Mullen (Libertarian Institute)

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Debating Interventionism vs. Non-Interventionism: The Israel Conundrum

2. Cycle of Foreign Policy Blunders & Manipulation

3. Shifting Powers in the Middle East: The Saudi–UAE Split

4. The Gaza Strip and Geopolitical Chess

[38:05] Scott & Darryl Interview Joe Solis Mullen: Trump’s Economic Record, Monetary Policy, and the National Debt

A. Monetary Inflation and Illusions of Growth

B. The Debt Trap: Can America “Grow Out of” $40 Trillion?

C. The Perverse Consequences of Dollar Hegemony

D. Structural Inequality and the Erosion of the Middle Class

E. The Inevitable Reckoning

F. Government Bloat & Illusions of Fiscal Savings

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Selected Timestamps for Important Segments

Language & Tone

Further Reading / Segments Mentioned

Summary

Summary

Provoked with Darryl Cooper and Scott Horton

Episode 31: Middle East Wars & Prospects for More

Date: January 24, 2026 Hosts: Darryl Cooper & Scott Horton Guest: Joe Solis Mullen (Libertarian Institute)

Episode Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Debating Interventionism vs. Non-Interventionism: The Israel Conundrum

2. Cycle of Foreign Policy Blunders & Manipulation

3. Shifting Powers in the Middle East: The Saudi–UAE Split

4. The Gaza Strip and Geopolitical Chess

[38:05] Scott & Darryl Interview Joe Solis Mullen: Trump’s Economic Record, Monetary Policy, and the National Debt

A. Monetary Inflation and Illusions of Growth

B. The Debt Trap: Can America “Grow Out of” $40 Trillion?

C. The Perverse Consequences of Dollar Hegemony

D. Structural Inequality and the Erosion of the Middle Class

E. The Inevitable Reckoning

F. Government Bloat & Illusions of Fiscal Savings

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Selected Timestamps for Important Segments

Language & Tone

Further Reading / Segments Mentioned

Summary

Date: January 24, 2026
Hosts: Darryl Cooper & Scott Horton
Guest: Joe Solis Mullen (Libertarian Institute)

Date: January 24, 2026
Hosts: Darryl Cooper & Scott Horton
Guest: Joe Solis Mullen (Libertarian Institute)