← Provoked with Darryl Cooper and Scott Horton
Provoked with Darryl Cooper and Scott Horton
EP:7 Who Watches the Watchers? Intelligence Agency Overreach
01:16:04
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- [00:00]
Scott Horton
Sam. Hey, welcome to the show. I'm Scott from the Things and Easy Daryl from some other stuff. How you doing, man?
- [00:39]
Daryl Cooper
Doing all right. I just got out of a three hour visit with the dentist, but I'm not doing too bad, dude, I gotta say. Like, I know your thing is anti war, and my things kind of become anti war too. That intro makes me want to go start a war.
- [00:55]
Scott Horton
Intro. Listen, I. I told my buddy Josh to write us a new song, which he did, but he's waiting on the guy to do the drums, so it'll be a little bit different.
- [01:06]
Daryl Cooper
All right. Nothing wrong with wanting to start a war.
- [01:08]
Scott Horton
About the intro. I got a real good intro guy too. Or a couple of them. So we're gonna see we got a good start, but we're gonna. I think we're gonna end up changing it up a little bit. It's a little too intense for my tone. My. My idea of the show is really just more you and me shooting this. A little less and tense though, you know, the subject matters, important stuff. But yeah, speaking of there reminds me more of like breaking news. More like, man, remember that one thing I'm still mad about.
- [01:37]
Daryl Cooper
Yeah. Anyway, speaking of subject matter, what are we talking about?
- [01:43]
Scott Horton
Well, so first of all, we got to talk about the great Ron Paul, the greatest American who ever lived and is still alive and is turning 90. And we're celebrating his birthday this weekend in Lake Jackson. And so me and Dave Smith and Keith Knight and Dan Sanchez and of course Tom woods and, you know, all kinds of great libertarians, Josie, the redheaded libertarian, and I'm sure Clint Russell's going to be there, Dan McKnight from Bring Our Troops Home Us and, you know, a bunch of people are going to be there celebrating good old Ron and his birthday and eating barbecue like we like to do. And it reminds me about how 20 years ago I caught the tail and just, you know, you know, you picture that hurricane, those. Those arms. I caught the tail of one of those arms on the way home from Hurricane Katrina on the way home from Ron Paul's birthday and damn near drown in my little green truck, man, trying to make IT home down 71 there while then, you know, Katrina got hit hard and, and that was right after, you know, the Cindy, she hand Camp Casey thing was going on at that time and all that. So finally confidence in Bush broke after five days of not doing a damn thing to help the people in New Orleans. And people like, wait a minute, this guy might not be the most competent administrator in world history. After all. So that was kind of a big deal. But yeah, so I love Ron and he really is the very best of us. And so we're all going to celebrate that and do some live stream podcasts and hang out and give a little five minute speeches and have a good time. So that's, yeah, standing room only, I guess. If people want to show up and like, look through the open doorway, I think they're sold out. But yeah, that should be fun.
- [03:22]
Daryl Cooper
And then somebody who like, you know, like you was like on the raw ron Paul train in 08 in 2012, like, it's so, it's so nice to see like kind of what he's become in the culture. You know, he definitely did not sort of show up and then fade away. I mean, his, you know, he got older, so his political career came to an end, but he's just universally admired now, pretty much. I mean, they tried to dismiss him, insult him everything they could. And in the end, I mean, he's, if you took a poll, I'll bet you of even like MAGA people, he'd probably stand up to Trump in terms of approval. I mean, he's just universally admired. Even people on the left, Democrats and stuff, even they like him. Everybody likes him and they should. And I'm glad he, he got to, he got to live long enough to kind of see that vindication in the culture, you know. It's awesome.
- [04:09]
Scott Horton
Yeah.
- [04:10]
Daryl Cooper
Gives me a little bit of faith.
- [04:11]
Scott Horton
And look, I mean, anybody. Oh no. Daryl just turned into a JPEG again. Oh, there he is. Hey. Yeah, no, you're right. And look, I mean, there's a reason why, I mean, check the archive, 555 articles or so there@antiwar.com Paul, dating back to the 1990s, talking about Mr. President Clinton. We should not be doing this. This is the kind of thing that's going to cause terrorism against the United States. Come home right now. You know, all this time his book A Foreign Policy of Freedom is all like concerns his. Or much of it concerns his first term in Congress or first terms in the 70s and 80s before he went back to be a baby doctor for a while and then finally came back in 97. And there he is warning Reagan about going into Lebanon. Don't do this, Mr. President. And then now that we're there, get our Marines out of there before something bad happens, Mr. President. And then, see, I told you something bad was going to happen. Now get him out of there, Mr. President. And then, congratulations, Mr. President. Finally doing the right thing. And not doubling down on the war in Lebanon, but instead getting the hell out of there instead of making things much worse and all that. And that's the kind of guy Ron Paul is. And dating back to those times, and even when you could tell he's more right wing and more cold warrior when it comes to China and Russia back then, his prescription is always non interventionism. Shore up freedom and prosperity here. That'll show those commies. And he's just, man, he's always so good. I love him, man. And honestly, like, the only things where I ever disagreed with him things were like he was more conservative than me on immigration. Well, yeah, but that's because he was right and I was wrong. Of course, you know, he's absolutely, you know, a doctor, not a lawyer. Great on Covid. From the very beginning, what they say is the infection rate and the fatality rate and whatever. Let me set these statistics straight for you, okay? Let me tell you how a virus works, okay? Blah, blah, blah, blah. Perfect. From the very beginning. You go check his record from the beginning of 20 with no flaws, right? With now error from the very beginning of that. From on everything. On everything. Check his archives@lourockwell.com and of course at the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity. But you know, the archives@lrc and antiwar.com go way back to the 90s. And it's just, dude, you can't beat that. You absolutely cannot beat that. And by the way, on the personal level, like, the reason the guy is charming is because he's not at all like a charming guy. He's like for real, legitimately charming in his just decency, still married to his high school sweetheart since they were 16 years old and with no scandal or hint of that whatsoever, deliver 4,000 babies and just has. He's just a country doctor who understands Ludwig von Mises economics and, and you know, his own, you know, Rothbardian foreign policy and you know, that anti government spirit. One of the first things I ever heard of him was on Washington Journal. Well, the first thing I ever heard of him was him accusing George Bush of selling chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein. Big. Probably the second thing I ever heard of him was on Washington Journal. They said, man, guys like you blew up Oklahoma or whatever, people who are anti government blew up Oklahoma. He goes, my constituents are a lot more afraid of getting blown up by the government. Like what happened at Waco? And they freaked out. But he, and he wasn't being a tough guy. He was just saying, I have paintings of Ron in the background. I have a bust of, I have two busts of Dr. Paul on my bookshelf behind me.
- [07:32]
Daryl Cooper
You know, he, you talk about him being right about all of these things from COVID back to Beirut, and he's just a shining example of how, you know, if you start with the right first principles, it's easy to be right on almost everything, you know, and he, and he's just, he doesn't deviate and he, you know, he sticks with that. And you know, I think also it's that just his, he's very gracious. You know, it would have been a different experience, maybe more satisfying to you and me and a lot of people, but I think probably would not have gotten the long term traction that it did if he had come out in that 08 election in 2012 and was just breathing fire on Bush as a war criminal and we need to just all that kind of stuff. It would not have, it really would not have resonated in that environment with the Republican audience or even conservative leaning people who weren't necessarily Republican. But he wasn't that type know, like you said, like he might say, I told you so, but it's really to say, look, we knew this was going to happen. We knew this was coming. It's not to be like, nah, nah, I told you so. You know, it just doesn't do that. He's very gracious and, and it's just, you know, you don't want to confuse the man in the message too much. But in this case like you know, the two, that both of them are just exemplary. Really admire him.
- [08:45]
Scott Horton
Exactly. Yeah. He does the message a lot of justice, you know what I mean, by being the, yeah. The leading guy standing behind it. So anyway, that's great. And we gotta always mention, I mean I, I would hasten to mention maybe people don't know this well enough, but of course, you know, from the Liberty Report, everybody knows that Ron's co host is the great Daniel McAdams who's the director of the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity. And he gets a lot of credit for being, you know, he was Ron Paul's foreign policy advisor from at least like 2000, maybe even 99. I'm not sure if it was after Kosovo or before, but he's been you know, obviously extremely reliable for Ron to work with on foreign policy this whole time. So if you ask him, I mean, read his articles@antiwar.com, it's all substantive stuff. This is not ideological like, you know, by the, the Austrian axiom, deductive Principle of praxiological whatever. No, no, no details about everything that's going on everywhere. Whether we're talking about North Korea's nuclear program or the latest from Gaza or whatever it is, he's always 100% on it and sets a really great example in that way too. And, and Dan gets a lot of credit for that as well.
- [09:57]
Daryl Cooper
Yeah. Speaking of presidential candidate foreign policy advisors. I told you that. Oh, I didn't. I don't think I told you who it was that invited me, but it was RFKJR's foreign policy advisor invited me to go on a trip to Damascus and meet Alshara. And the, the funny thing is, universally my wife, everybody that loves me. I mean, this is a guy, former ISIS, quote unquote, former quote unquote, former Al Qaeda in Iraq, now the President of Syria, overseeing butchery after butchery, you know, in that country that's been happening since the takeover. And universally everybody that cares about me said, no, no, no, no, no, don't go. And I said, well, I expected that because the Israelis might kill you. And they were dead serious, dude.
- [10:48]
Scott Horton
I mean, hell, even if Al Qaeda kills you, it might because the Israelis asked them to. You know what I mean? Hey, this guy, he's not a friend of ours. See if you can maybe, you know, sleep him with the fishes there.
- [11:00]
Daryl Cooper
Yeah, you know, the serious situation, like I, I'm trying to be as open.
- [11:06]
Scott Horton
That was just such horrible grammar there. I apologize to everyone. Go ahead.
- [11:11]
Daryl Cooper
I, I don't want to suck us too much down this rabbit hole. I know we got a different topic in mind, but the, you know, the serious situation, like I'm trying to be as open minded as possible in the sense of, you know, look, there's obviously like just the hardcore Zionist types who just want to see that country destroyed and in chaos so that they can't mount a threat to Israel and, and all that kind of stuff. I think there are well intentioned, generally well intentioned people in, in the US government. Not, certainly not all of them. But there are those people who, they just look at the situation as, you know, that war, that civil war was never ever going to. After everything that had happened and all of the hatred that had built up against Assad over the course of that war, which of course we had a huge hand in prolonging and intensifying, don't get me wrong on any of that. There was just, there was never going to be peace in that country as long as Assad was there and Assad wasn't leaving voluntarily. And whether we like it or not, or anybody likes it or not, this group of people is the only force around that, that had the numbers, the, the, the military capability, everything else to go in and actually take the country. And then once that happened, you know, like the way that I've had it explained to me by people who are not necessarily sympathetic but who are, who are kind of taking this as facts on the ground and that we just have to work with and deal with and they're trying to do that in good faith, is that, you know, they, they tell me they think and they could be totally wrong about this, but they're not lying to me. I know these people pretty well. So they might be wrong. They're not lying. They think that, that Alshara is, is by no means a moderate, but a pragmatist. And he's somebody who wants to put Syria back together and be in charge of it. But because of just the loose nature of the forces that he led and the outside interference by Turkey and you know, everybody else with those forces, he does not have full control by, like, barely has any control really over all the guys with guns in his country. And so he's walking this kind of tightrope where, you know, on one hand, look, you have to make certain compromises if you're going to figure out how to keep the trains running, if they even have any of those left in Syria, but just get the water running, make the sewers work, collect the garbage, all that, I mean, the daily tasks of governing, really the only people who know how to do any of that stuff, at least at a national level or provincial level or probably former members of the Assad government. And so, you know, do you have to like walk this, this sort of tightrope if you're, if you're him, between seeming to compromise too much maybe with the, for members of the former regime or officials or even employees of the former regime or being, you know, because you know, that, you know, America could snap their fingers like as a lot of Israel could snap their fingers and you get vaporized in an instant if they, if they, you know, decide they don't like you anymore. So, you know, you have to kind of reach out to the Alawite population, kind of reach out to the Druze population and so forth. But then the other side of that, of that high tightrope, tightrope is he's got these guys got these like real deal, hardcore head chopping jihadists who have all the guns and who brought him to power. And if they think that, you know, he's being, he's being too accommodating or he's not going hard enough and not turning Syria into enough of an Islamic republic. You know, he could end up in his own Gaddafi video. Which given his past, you know, might be, might be, you know, poetic justice. But you know, in terms of like, I guess, I guess here's the thing and I'll stop ranting, but, and again, don't get me wrong, you and I agree on this. Most of the people out there who are listening, like, we all agree on this situation. I'm just kind of playing around with it, with the, the situation as it stands. You know, one thing I do see is that, and this is mostly with like left wing anti war people, although you see it on the right sometimes now too is, you know, it's easy to be so against US intervention and Israeli belligerence and all these things to the point that you're almost rooting for the axis of resistance. Right? And I understand that. Like, I understand the desire. Like, it's just like with Russia and Ukraine right now. Like, you feel like the empire needs to get checked. You know, the empire needs to like, know that there's a limit out there to what it can achieve and that it's going to hit its head against the wall if it goes too far. The problem is like that I see is like, you know, people, even if the regime that's in Syria right now, and I don't think this is going to happen by any means for a number of reasons, but even if it was the best chance for that country to be put back together and become a non failed state, I think there's a lot of people see out there who like, they don't, they almost don't. It's not that they don't want that, but that's a secondary consideration to Israel getting theirs, you know, and the resistance axis showing, you know, the empire that like, they're not going to back down all that. And it's, you know, it's easy to get caught up in that. And I totally, I sympathize with, with that tendency. But we do have to kind of watch out for that because the goal should be that like all of the normal people in Syria, which is most of the people there, can wake up tomorrow and not worry that their kids are going to get killed or raped or, you know, that a mob's going to come destroy their village. Like that's what we all want. That's the point, you know, and anyway, rant Over. I just. Yeah, I've been thinking about it a lot lately, so.
- [17:13]
Scott Horton
Yeah. Well, look, first of all, this is our brand new book. Our 17th book just hit, like within the last couple of hours here. The Libertarian Institute's 17th book. It's by the absolutely heroic William Van Wagenen, who is an incredible investigative journalist. He's been writing deep, deep dives on Obama's dirty war in Syria for years for us at the Institute. And this, his book, long promised, is finally unleashed. And it's the CIA's covert war, creative chaos. The CIA's covert war to. I'm sorry, what was it? Overthrow God. I can't see it from here with my old eyes.
- [17:59]
Daryl Cooper
Government.
- [18:00]
Scott Horton
Yeah, there you go. So just hit. It's on Amazon.com right now. You'll be able to find a link from the Libertarian Institute very soon. And there's just nobody better on this than William Van Wagenen to explain. And you know when you say the axis of resistance, what that really is? It's the Shiites plus Hamas. Right. But that's what it is. And, and the Alawites were very close to the Shiites. And some consider, you know, their group to be kind of an offshoot or like a combination of whatever, but close enough. And they were tied to Tehran. That's the important part. And now that's over forever. Now the whites aren't taking Damascus back. I mean, it's a super majority Sunni Arab country anyway. So the relative extremism of the dictator or president going forward remains to be determined. As you say, this guy is a bin Laden, leader of the suicide bomber brigades with John Brennan. Right. So we can expect the worst from him. Or as you said, is what I've been saying since he took over, he's really going to kowtow to the US and Israel that bad, his own guys are going to cut his head off and replace him sooner or later anyway. So they have really made a deal with the devil here. I mean, this guy, look, he's clearly been to Turkish Intelligence finishing school, so that he's not. They told him, stop cutting people's heads off and doing suicide attacks. Okay, we can't spin that. So just knock off that. Right, so in other words, don't throw gays off the roof and don't look like Baghdadi and we'll let you live, we'll let you take over and we'll even back you. Just don't be a Shiite. And that's the deal. Right. And so they're willing to tolerate them, but I Mean to me it just portends chaos. There's no way around it. Like we're just in the in between time before things get much worse over there. And it's of course already you've had all kinds of Alawites and Christians being slaughtered as well as the Druze, which gives the Israelis an excuse to intervene and take even more of the southern part of the country in the name of protecting the Druze there. It's just a disaster. You know, not that I care at all. I don't sympathize at all with the Axis of resistance.
- [20:05]
Daryl Cooper
I don't.
- [20:05]
Scott Horton
Whatever. I'm against the US government doing things, but that doesn't put me on the other side of the thing. But I'm saying it's a disaster just because these are guys who sworn loyal to bin Laden and then Zawahiri, which means that sooner or later, potentially now, later because they seem to be so cooperative with American intelligence at this time, but they very well are likely to come back to bite us. We've seen this over and over again. Just because Bill Clinton backs jihadis in one place doesn't mean they won't turn around and hit us in another. And so, you know, these things happen and it's just, and, and honestly, man, we're about to talk about Russiagate and I am so upset about Russiagate still. It's like the Waco fire. So I'm not over, I'm not going to be over it. And yet I want Tulsi Gabbard to simply turn over everything to justice and then get back to keeping Bin Laden nights off of these shores. I want her and Joe Kent all day. I don't want them to wage war overseas and kill people. I am not saying that. I wrote a book about stop doing that. I'm not giving them that mandate. But keeping these guys off of our shores is the absolute highest responsibility. There's just nothing that can that should be taking from their attention to that one and only goal because there's nobody else threatens us in this world then bin Ladenite suicide bombers. That's the threat.
- [21:25]
Daryl Cooper
Yeah, well they, you know, there's the threat of, of an attack. That's one threat. But in a way it's, that's almost the minor threat. You know, just like with 9 11, as tragic as it was, you thousand people killed, it was horrible. The, the real threat was our reaction to it. You know, our predictable and predicted reaction to it. And for some, you know, for people who want to see an end to this, to this style of foreign policy we've been, we've been enacting for decades now. Another big terrorist attack. It wouldn't, it doesn't, I mean, you just, you know how people are. Like when something like that happens, they can be people. You were having a conversation with them yesterday and they totally get it. They're totally down.
- [22:08]
Scott Horton
Live through this.
- [22:09]
Daryl Cooper
My answer happens in the 90s.
- [22:11]
Scott Horton
Some, like real anti government guys, some like real anti New World Order guys sign their son up for the army as soon as W. Bush got in there, even before 9, 11, like, oh, everything's okay now.
- [22:23]
Daryl Cooper
What?
- [22:25]
Scott Horton
It's just, man.
- [22:26]
Daryl Cooper
Yeah, and that's the real concern, you know, because I think I've always thought, or at least for many years, going back to maybe, you know, the early years of the Syrian civil war, that, you know, the real, the real goal was not regime change in the sense that we did it in Iraq or something like that. The real goal was just to reduce that territory to chaos and fluctuating governments and, and rival militias and sectarian factions. Because that just gives you a permanent excuse to go in there and do whatever you want like the Israelis have been doing every. I mean, that's just like a, it's a perfect example. You have this guy who at least in his rhetoric, right. Is talking about. And this is a remarkable thing when you really think about it, given his background and who supports him in that country and everything, but him going out publicly and saying he's willing to talk to the Israelis and all this, like you would think that they would really want to make sure that this guy is long. You know, if he, if he changes his tune, you can take care of it. But at least for now, you'd think they want to keep him around. But the first thing they do when they took power is just blew up his defense ministry, blew up all his military equipment, sank his navy. Sank his navy. Yeah. And like, you know, certain things, like if they think there's chemical weapon stores or if they're just heavy long range missiles or something, you know, maybe that's fine, whatever. But you know, they were destroying APCs and things that you need if you have a jihadist uprising and then you southwest of the country, south country or something. And so like, you know, it kind of just shows you that the goal here is chaos. The same thing they want for Iran. They don't want MEK to take over. They don't really think the Shah is going to go back and be welcomed with roses in the streets. They just want it to be a failed state with Persians fighting Baluchi's fighting Azeris and everybody else just. That's what they want.
- [24:16]
Scott Horton
Daryl, remind me. I'm sorry because I do a lot of shows and I can't keep track anymore, man. But forgive me if I'm being redundant. I'll stop. But did we talk about the Oded Yanon plan on the show last week or in one of these recent times? Okay, so ODED Yannan, I brought this up. Did I tell you that I did a 10 hour interview with Lex Friedman that's going to come out in a couple of weeks? He's got to edit some things together. But one thing is, I told him. Well, look, and one thing he did was he stopped and pulled up everything that I mentioned and then would read a little like the AI summary on Google. What is the Oded Yannan plan? It's O D E D Y N O N. And it's essentially like an insane, paranoid, schizophrenic, lunatic Ludnik advisor to Ariel Sharon. And he wrote it in, I'm pretty sure 81. And the first premise of the thing.
- [25:04]
Daryl Cooper
He was defense minister at the time. Charon.
- [25:06]
Scott Horton
God, was he? Yeah, okay, I had forgotten that it was that bad. I had trauma base block that out, I guess. He says, listen, man, obviously the Soviet communists are about to conquer the entire world and we have only one choice then, which is to secure our regional dominance by smashing every Arab state into as many pieces, the smallest pieces possible and to just so complete chaos. That's the only way we'll be able to survive in the new one world. Communism. And of course the Soviet Union ceased to exist by the end of the decade. But whatever, man. Still sounds good. Way better than making peace, as they put it. Land for peace. Like they're being forced somehow to give up their own land as the price of peace rather than to stop stealing it, which is actually kind of different. But that was the way they looked at it, was, hey man, you know what I mean? A cut in the, in the national government. Well, we just meant a cut in the rate of future growth.
- [26:07]
Daryl Cooper
Yeah, yeah. You know, or they say like, you know, they'll. They'll make an announcement that inflation has been cut in half and people say great prices are going down. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. The rate of rise is.
- [26:20]
Scott Horton
Yeah, the rate of our expansion in the west bank sometimes varies, but it never ends, of course. Anyway, so I think there's a lot of that going on and I need to go back, actually. Daryl Because I don't think I memorized this. But there is at least one sentence hanging in. It's either in the clean break or in coping with crumbling states where worms are. Says something like, well, and if that doesn't work, at least there'll be smaller broken pieces. You know, something like that. I need to get that exact quote. So that would be, you know, Yanon echoed later in the clean break policy, which the clean break policy was, it's going to be great, it's going to be easy. We're going to have our way, which. And then I guess chaos was plan B or C, which is what we're seeing.
- [27:07]
Daryl Cooper
Yeah, but I mean, we're seeing these last couple really. I mean, this last year and a half, two years, we've really seen the culmination of kind of decades of events, you know, taking that have been, I mean, you go back to the 60s and 70s, you know, the Ba' athist regimes, the Egyptians before they made peace with Israel. I mean, they were mortal enemies, not only of Israel, they were mortal enemies of all of the Gulf monarchies, you know, that they saw as standing in the way of this pan Arab dream that they had. You know, of course they all wanted to be in charge of the big pan Arab state, but they all shared that, at least ideologically, but not the monarchies, because the monarchies are like, my family literally owns all of this land. Why would I join some Arab super state now? You know, and one by one, I mean, every single one of those secular dictatorships has been picked off and destroyed. And one thing you got to say, I mean, I, this is like a, this is a macabre sort of admission, I guess. But you know, I was thinking the other day about Obama back in what it was 2011, I guess saying a couple times, Assad has to go, Assad must go.
- [28:20]
Scott Horton
Yep.
- [28:21]
Daryl Cooper
And you go back to 2016, 2017, and it was looking like, wow, you know, I guess he's not going anywhere. The, the empire has to take a loss on that one. But you always got to remember, man, there's people here like behind the scenes who make a career out of this and they do not go to sleep when it, you know, when it, when it fades from the news. They keep on it. And you know, it's one of those things that if you don't have a robust counterintelligence defense and just military defense and a stable enough government and, and civil society to, to withstand that kind of pressure over the long term, you're just not going to make it once the, the eye of Sauron turns on you, you know, and they thought they could do that to Russia. And it's looking like they're probably not going to be able to do that, which is not surprising to most of us. But, but, you know, that's how it goes. You know, you, you have, we, you know, we kind of, we kind of tell ourselves that, or we, we used to tell ourselves this. I guess we came out of the Gulf War, you know, like the, the first Gulf War. And I mean, if you ask, like I was talking to somebody a couple weeks ago, it might have been in, it might have been in a interview actually. But he brought up the Gulf War and he was like, and what do we take? Do we even take any casualties? And I was like, yeah, we took some, but that kind of, that's how people think about it. Like, it was like as if we took no casualties and we just went in there, we saved the day. We don't even know if we killed any Iraqis. Like, you know, most people don't know. It's just, we went in and just by our presence, like the whole thing kind of melted away. And we came away with this idea that like, wow, I guess the US Military with all their fancy new technology and you know, smart guided bombs, everything else, we can just absolutely do anything with the US Military. It's this all purpose tool that we can just apply at will anywhere in the world for any problem that we find. And we thought that and we tried it and it's failed for 25 years. And you know, now I, you know what I, what I really hate. And we should get into this like another time because like, you know, everybody kind of agrees now that nuclear weapons, like, you know, maybe it's not like a war crime on the level of biological and chemical weapons, just because if things go nuclear, then we're just at a whole, we're in a whole new world like that day. But like, everybody kind of agrees. Chemical, biological weapons, that is just off limits. And if you do that, you are a rogue regime and you have no standing, no legitimacy, et cetera, et cetera. I really think we need to apply that same mentality to this, to what has really become like our chief foreign policy tool, it seems like over the last several decades, which is, you know, think about, I was listening to somebody give an interview. I can't somebody give an interview. Who. She lived in the United States, but her family lived in Aleppo when they were taken over by all the, like, not this last time, but like when they were occupied by the jihadists for a while and talking about how, you know, they would go outside and they can't read the spray paint writing on the walls because it's different languages. Because the Chechens own those blocks and the Afghans on those blocks and the Syrians own those. And it's just a bunch of gang territory. They would get into gang machine gun battles in the streets. And these are all a bunch of, you know, 20 year old psychopaths from the slums of Karachi or wherever, you know, from the slums of Brussels. Just put out a call like in the way they did it too, right? Think of how I know we're probably not wanting to get like a rated R thing on this, but think about how fucking evil this is, dude. To put out the kind of ISIS propaganda that was coming out, right? I saw a video. I don't know how many of them you saw. I didn't see very many of them, but I saw a couple. And there was one where they had a bunch of prisoners chained up to broken down carnival rides and they had kids executing them on the carnival rides, right? Just cartoonishly evil. So you put those videos out as a recruiting tool and who do you think you're going to get? You're going to get the craziest dudes in the world who are all going to come to participate in this. And so we, we do that, we like, you know, create this situation where that calls being put out and these people are flooding into the country with no like military leadership or discipline, no, no nothing. It's just a bunch of crazy psychopaths with guns running around this country. And like they would talk about how like you're, imagine you're in Aleppo and you're in that situation and you're in there with your wife and your two daughters and there's just dudes, you know, hopped up on Captagon, just going by, firing their guns in the air. You're just praying they don't come into your house because you know what happens if they do. And you, it's your only option at that point is decide whether you're going to die over it or not, you know, and just an awful disgusting thing to do to another country. I don't care what the government did or what the people did to, to just take a bunch of undisciplined, no military governorship, just young psychos and give them guns and send them into a place and say, go destroy that place and take down the government. You know, like I I heard somebody describe Syria this way. I think it's a great way to describe it. And then I'll stop is they said, imagine if like Russia or China got together with like the KKK, neo Nazi factions, all the craziest hardcore right wing people like in the US who you know, are hiding in the shadows or whatever and they just load them up with heavy weapons and provide intelligence and you know, middle level leadership by bringing other people in from other places that have already kind of done this kind of thing before. And we say, and they were to say, go march on Washington and take down the US government. And on their way to Washington they just stopped by in every town and city and killed all the Jews and blacks and everything else. That's what we did to Syria. And it's crazy and it's evil. And I really hope that one day that, that tactic, that way of waging war against, against a country is really looked at the same way we look at biological weapons because it's just awful.
- [34:43]
Scott Horton
Yeah, no, look, you couldn't be more right about it. Normally I would have just said, yeah, everybody get enough already. But even better get it just hit, I mean two today, this, this evening around dinner time, it hit Creative Chaos by William Van Wagonen. Brand new hot out. He really deserves the recognition and the boost for all you book readers out there. It's such an important book. I've, I'm the publisher of the thing, so I've read it and, and I've supported his work for a very long time. He is such a great guy. He's been kidnapped by Al Qaeda for real, dude. He has done long term investigative journalism including in Iraq and in Syria, camping out with the Yazidis and getting the absolute, the real story on what happened here, man. And believe me, I was good on Syria years before they even launched the thing. And I know what from who was good on it and who was not right and, and yeah, man, this is the best that you can get on the origins. It's, it's not the whole war, but it's how it all started and how it was. The US government, of course, with our NATO allies, Britain and especially France, and then of course the GCC and Israel and Turkey. And it was all about trying to, as I say every day of my life, I guess W. Bush put the Ayatollah up two pegs in Baghdad, so now he had to take them down a peg in Damascus. That's what it was all about. That's what the redirection was all about. And that's the story I tell, you know, in the book and in the, at the Academy and all that. But, you know, even in my book, I'm the very first to give credit to William Van Wagenen for doing so much great research. And I cribbed from a lot of great journalists and I give them all credit too. I read a lot of books about it and I read a lot of journalism about it. But he is absolutely five star, top notch, as good as you could possibly get. I guarantee that Joshua Landis and Charmin Narwani and Moon of Alabama, Bernard and Max Blumenthal and all of the best guys on Syria would tell you the very same thing that, like, this is as good as it gets is creative chaos. Brand new out. But they've all read his stuff. If you, you know, if you look him up at the Libertarian Institute, you can read all his great writing there. And when I say long form pieces, I mean like 50, 000 words. These are the kind of articles that he's been writing for me for years, dude. I mean, it's just incredible stuff. So. And I do have the short version in enough already, including a lot on Israel's role in the thing and all that. So here's the segue because we want to talk about Russia Gate. We've been putting it off. I almost want to just put it off more and talk about other things because I'm going to have Matt Taibi on the show tomorrow, tomorrow, and he's just the best of the best. And I still have not had a chance. I've read some articles about it, but I've not had a chance myself to do the deep dive on the annex to the Durham report or even the declassified version of the House investigation of the.
- [37:40]
Daryl Cooper
Yeah, let's, let's do that next week. That's fine. I mean, I don't mind anyway, because.
- [37:44]
Scott Horton
There'S something really good on the background, but I'm not very good on the new developments and it'd be better maybe to just really nail that down all the way, you know.
- [37:52]
Daryl Cooper
Yeah. And you know, it's connected to this serious stuff for sure. I mean, in the sense that, you know, if you think about it like there were, there were, I think, probably, probably three real purposes to Russiagate, right. To that whole effort that was put out there. One, of course, like the initial one maybe was to muddy the waters with regard to the DNC emails and the Podesta emails, because those were going to be so damning for Hillary Clinton if people just focused on what they did to Bernie Sanders. That was going to be a huge problem. Then it was to just. The Trump focus was. I don't, you know, they knew. We. We're kind of finding out now that they knew from the beginning that Trump was not colluding with Russia. They knew from the beginning that Russia probably didn't even hack those emails. But if you can use that as an excuse to go through his whole life, talk to everybody he knows and everybody they know, and put pressure on every single person that has the slightest little taxi cab medallion scandal or whatever else it is, threaten them all with prison, bankrupt them by bringing them in and making them pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to lawyers like they did with campaign volunteers. Michael Caputo, this dude was just a campaign volunteer, and they, I mean, he had to sell his house because they just. He had to pay lawyers hundreds of thousands of dollars. This was not some rich dude or anything. There were a ton of people in the administration who left the administration, not because, you know, they were getting all kind of fed up with things. They're like, dude, I can't keep getting pulled in for these DOJ interviews. You know, this is like costing me hundreds of thousands of dollars. I can't afford it. And so they would leave, and it kept a lot of people from even joining the administration. And so I think that, you know, the. The goal really, with the investigation part of it was really just them thinking that Trump, this guy, the. Grab him by the pussy dude, like, this dude, give us all of his email. Give. Give us all of his people around him and like, dude, by the time we're done piling up dirt on this guy that we're going to find, people aren't even going to remember Rush again. Like, that's going to be like, it's just a long. And it's amazing to me, actually, that that turned out not to be the case. And I don't know if that's just because Trump's lived his life in the tabloids, so it's all in public anyway. But the fact that they didn't. I mean, imagine, like, if they were to go through Hillary Clinton's whole life with the same fine tooth comb they did with Trump, dude should be getting the electric chair. You know what I mean? And that's true of a lot of people. And so he's relatively clean in that sense. But then as it relates to this, you know, I think. And this is probably why a lot of the deep state kind of went along with it, as long as they didn't as hardcore as they did. Is that because at first this was just a Clinton problem.
- [40:43]
Scott Horton
If we can't remove him through the 25th amendment, at least we can rein him in with this special investigation.
- [40:49]
Daryl Cooper
And specifically, specifically rein him in on Syria and Ukraine. Those are the two things that implementing.
- [40:57]
Scott Horton
Minsk do most of all now. Yeah, hold on one second. Because two things. First of all, I wrote 75 pages on Russia. It's the longest chapter, kind of sub chapter, chapter type section thing in Provoke. That I did. I debunked every single lie about Russia gate that I could possibly remember because I was terrified. Someone say, oh, yeah, but what about. About this one? And I'd miss it. But you just got me. And I realized this a couple of weeks ago, too. I miss Caputo. I do not have a section on Caputo in my Russiagate section, and curse me for that. Will you please tell us about him?
- [41:30]
Daryl Cooper
Oh, I don't know a whole lot about him. I've talked to him a few times. I've mentioned him before in. In articles and interviews in his story, and just in sympathizing with them. And he reached out and just because he saw. He saw or read something and. And said thanks, and we kind of corresponded a bit. I don't know a lot about him, just that he was. He was just a. I mean, there was never even an accusation against this guy. There was never even an implication that he was accused of anything. This was purely just lawfare. This was taking this dude, who is a normal guy. This is not some rich dude. You know, a lot of people for some reason, think that, like, if you're working for a presidential campaign or something, you got money to press. Not the case with a lot of these people. And he was a volunteer, and they just kept pulling them in. And every time you do it, I mean, you gotta hire good lawyers to go in there with you because, you know, they're really, really good at manipulating people and getting you to trip up and contradict yourself. And if they're going for blood the way they were during the Russiagate thing, I mean, them tripping you up, that could be a jail sentence. I mean, that's. That's where they were going. That's a perjury felony jail sentence. And so you gotta hire these lawyers. And it's just every time they call you in, it's 30, 40, $50,000. Do it again in three months, do it again three months later. And they're doing this to regular people, campaign volunteers, you know, and it's just it's one of those things that is just emblematic of how, you know, they are in their minds. And they. Somebody as sanctimonious as Komi might even believe this about himself. Hillary doesn't believe it. But, like, Comey might that what he's really the patriot here. He's the one who's trying to step in and save the republic from itself. It's like, well, yeah, but you guys are going out and just destroying the lives of random campaign volunteers, American citizens, the people you're trying to protect. Right?
- [43:21]
Scott Horton
Yeah.
- [43:21]
Daryl Cooper
And there's just no concern for that. They didn't care. They were just.
- [43:24]
Scott Horton
You're so right. And listen, as far as I know, I always sound like I'm probably spinning for these guys, like rationalizing their behavior in a way when I talk about how they rationalize their. Their behavior. Just what you just said, that they know that they're the patriots here. So there's a great clip of John McLaughlin, who had been the acting director of the CIA. And they asked him, oh, Trump says it was at a. Some think tank event. Trump says it's the deep state acting against him. And he laughs and he says, thank God for the deep state. And the whole audience laughs and applauds and he says, now let me tell you something. The problem is not at Langley. It's not at the Hoover building here in D.C. and it's not at Fort Meade is NSA headquarters. The problem is at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. So you could see how if Donald Trump was a Manchurian Candidate blackmailed slave of Vladimir Putin, then John McLaughlin might have a point that these men are sworn to uphold the Constitution and protect it from all enemies, foreign and domestic. And so even though these are all three completely extra constitutional, post republic, national security, you know, agencies of the government, and they're coming at the President this way, maybe they'd be heroes if it was all true, Right? But it wasn't at all. They were the ones framing them. It was all just a giant hoax and they were punching far above their weight when in fact, he literally is the one and only elected member of the executive branch and the chief executive, the boss of those departments, the boss of them. And they just got no right whatsoever. And by, you know, January 20th, they should have just been saying, oh, well. And that's the way it goes. The people did elect him. And again, they knew they were lying. So let me go back because I want to clarify something that you said that because about covering up for Hillary's emails. A big part of what was going on there was. It was not covering up for the leaked emails that didn't come until later. It was covering up for the missing emails that they were already investigating. The 30,000 emails that she had deleted from her own private server, which were obviously regarding her corruption and taking millions of dollars from foreign governments while she was Secretary of state. And in the meantime, in between the first Obama term after she resigned and then the lead up to the election campaign of 15 and 16 where they're pouring all this money into her campaign and she had deleted all those emails and that was the big scam. And it's so funny because if you think back to all the times that the liberal Democrat Russiagate believer said, oh, but her emails when like. Yeah, no, exactly. That's why they came up with the Russiagate thing in part was so that you would say that, so that you go, oh my God, here's this true gigantic conspiracy about Trump and Russia. But you're upset that her emails are missing as like this tiny little thing. Well, that was the manipulation there and how successful that was. But stop and rewind, because there's a very important story. In fact, I have it here. Let me get the title right for everybody here. This is a story that came out last year and it's by our heroes over at Racket News, the great Matt Taibi, who, as I said, is going to be on my show tomorrow. And God dang me if I can't find this. Oh, no, it wasn't him. It was at. Oh, it is him. But it was at public because he wrote it with Michael Shellenberger. Okay, so this is public news is their substack. Okay. The article is called, it's a long headline, FBI helped Clinton campaign. This is not it. Is it? Wait, nope, this is not it. I'm sorry, I'm looking at the wrong way and I'm going to find it. This is it. This is it. CIA had foreign allies spy on Trump team triggering Russia collusion hoax. Okay. Now sources say so this part of it is not fully, fully documented, but I totally think that this is clear because there are many parts of it that are documented. Okay? And that is that John Brennan, the leader of Jabat Al Nusra suicide bomber brigades in Syria, committer of high treason against the United States and his support for Al Qaeda there, who framed Trump, that he started this in the end of 2015. And we have two different sources that say that it was GCHQ that started it. But I think it's pretty clear that he contacted them and this is, I think, what the source is telling Taibi and Shellenberger here, he contacted them and said, listen, I need you guys to pretend that you had a reason that you tipped me off that I need to do this, whatever. And then he went and he had like a whole swarm of informants bump, as they called it, into Trump campaign people in order to try to frame them. And I think that it's just perfectly. Well, no, no, no, it's not perfectly clear, but it's in this article that this is what their source says. And I think it's very, very likely. And you know, it is still in speculation, but it seems very clear to me, seems very likely to me that this is the origin of the actual framing of George Papadopoulos. When you had this so called Russian spy who was actually a Maltese professor who was working for MI6 leave information with him. Mifsud, yes.
- [48:55]
Daryl Cooper
Yeah, he actually had some kind of a tie to the State Department, I think too.
- [48:58]
Scott Horton
Yes. And MI6 and I show all this in the book thoroughly, that this guy had no ties to Russia whatsoever except he had one friend at a think tank there. But that was meaningless. And he was palling around with MI6 and CIA and military officials all the time and including at this spy training academy in Italy and all of these things. So it seems, emphasis, but it seems as though he was meant to put something in Papadopoulos's ear. And then Downer, the Australian diplomat was made to try to take the garbage out and get him to say something to him. Popped off of swores. He never even told that guy anything because he was such a jerk to him. He never said anything to him at all. And then Downer later backed down from the New York Times claims that he had said that Papadopoulos told him that the Russians told him they had all this dirt on Clinton. It wasn't true. And in fact they didn't even use that as an excuse to take it to the FISA court to try to get their FISA warrant against Trump or any of the team because they just didn't even have the courage to take that lie. And in fact, McCabe, I believe it was, the FBI official said that there was just nothing enough to it to even pretend in, basically that.
- [50:05]
Daryl Cooper
Yeah, yeah. And that's when they switched over to Carter Page.
- [50:07]
Scott Horton
Yeah. But see also there's this really important article by a guy named Stephen Schrage. S C H R A G and he wrote a thing, maybe not ch maybe it's just sh R G and he had been a foreign policy adviser to Mitt Romney. He's like a Heritage foundation type, I think. And he was studying at Cambridge under Stefan Halper, the Walrus, they called him, who was this longtime Republican fixer. He was the one who stole Jimmy Carter's debate talking points and gave him to the Reagan campaign back in 1980. Was known as being very close to the Bushes and so forth.
- [50:43]
Daryl Cooper
And we get Tank, right, that recently got disbanded.
- [50:46]
Scott Horton
That's right. The Office of Net Assessment in the Pentagon, which was previously known, famous for Harold Road, the neocon, coming in and firing everybody who knew anything about Iraq in the run up to that war. Anyway, that was like the cutout where they would pay him $30,000 for an article supposedly that was actually for dirty work he was doing. And so he had SHRA was studying under him. And so he was like eyeball witness to what he called the Cambridge Four, which was. And he took responsibility in an accidental kind of a way for the framing of Carter Page, because. So here's the Cambridge Four was Christopher Steele, from the Steele Dossier, the former MI6 officer Richard Dearlove, the former chief of MI6, who you might remember him from the Downing street memo that said that the intelligence is being fixed around the policy to justify the war with Iraq from July of 2002. He was the head of MI6 for Tony Blair at that time. Then there was a academic from Cambridge named Christopher Andrews, I believe was also former MI6 or MI5. And then was Halper. And Halper was there, had a visiting professorship of some kind or whatever at Cambridge as well. And these guys were all tight friends and they got Schrage to like, organize the event. And he is the one who decided to invite Carter Page because they just want to have someone from the Trump campaign. And the way he described it was that Halper was really rude to Paige and paid him no mind until Richard Dearlove showed up and whispered in his ear or took him aside and talked to him. And then all of a sudden, Halper wanted to be best friends with Paige and Sidle up to him and offer to, you know, work with him and whatever. And it was after that that Paige turned up in the Steele dossier and that and Danchenko told the FBI was one of the sources for the Steele dossier. He told the FBI that he got Paige's name from Halper and then he recycled the name and gave it to Steel when Steele was there. Anyway. And so this was, you know, part of the thing where they framed Carter Page. Carter Page Being a advisor to the Trump campaign, foreign policy adviser who had some business ties to Russia, but was a loyal American patriot and a CIA informant. Whenever he went to Russia and did any business or met any man in business or politics over there, he would always come back and debrief the CIA about who he met and what he was doing. They knew him to be a loyal asset. And when the famously now, kind of infamously, the CIA sent a memo saying exactly that to the FBI, and the FBI censored that out of their submission to the FISA court asking for a warrant against this American citizen. No probable cause here. Now, it's an objective, reasonable belief that this guy is a foreign agent. So we get to go fishing on him all day. And two hops from him, anyone he calls. And anyone they call, we get to surveil all them, too. Now, because this guy, we're accusing him of being a foreign agent and, and he ended up being the lawyer Kevin Klein Smith ended up, is the only one convicted for Russiagate so far who was sentenced to a slap on the wrist, a year probation for doing that. But they framed one of their own loyal assets and went along and let him be framed. And even though he wrote a letter to the director of the FBI saying, please interview me, I want you to interview me, and they refused to interview him for months and months and months because they knew how innocent he was. And when they finally did interview him, after Trump took office, after the ICA of January 2017, where they made all these accusations and everything, they finally interviewed him. He went down there with a PowerPoint presentation. He went down there and met him five times, and no lawyer. Maybe he had a lawyer, but just spilled his guts the whole time. Of course, he had nothing to hide whatsoever. It was a total frame up job that they were doing there. And then. So this poor guy's Christopher Strange. Pardon me, Stephen Schrage says, ah, Gez, like, I'm sorry, Carter Page, I think I got you into this, right, by inviting you to this thing. And now I realize you were set up by my boss and his buddies in Cambridge. 4. And that same guy, Schrage, he says he recorded not. He says he proved he recorded all of his conversations with Stefan Halpert. And so he has. And they published this at Racket News. They published the audio of Halper talking about how they were framing up Mike Flynn and how they're going to get him in so much trouble and then he's going to lose his temper and freak out. And that's what's going to get him fired. You watch. That's why he's so ill suited to this job. And then what they do, this is right at the same time that Obama is ordering the intelligence community to explain how Russia did it. Right? In other words begging the question, assuming the conclusion not find out if they did it and assess what they did, but how they did what they did and right at that same time is when they're framing Flynn. They have Mike Flynn who is a three star general, retired former head of intelligence for JSOC in Iraq, former head of intelligence for and right hand man to General Stanley McChrystal in the Afghan surge, who then goes to be the head of diagnosis. He is now the designated. And by the way, why was he fired? He was fired, Daryl, because he was passing secret intelligence to the Germans as DIA director. He was heroically insubordinate passing intelligence to the Germans to pass to Assad to use to kill Al Qaeda in Syria. And there's a Seymour Hersh article about this called Military to Military and it's about that the. This heroic insubordination where the military is helping Assad kill the CIA suicide bomber squads. Tough, right?
- [56:28]
Daryl Cooper
So that whole crew are so nasty, man. Didn't they. They. They invited Flynn to a dinner at one point that he attended and there was a woman there. I can't remember her name now but I would have known it back in 2016, 2017 when I was obsessed with this story.
- [56:43]
Scott Horton
But Lokava, she was. Lucava was her name. And this was another thing.
- [56:49]
Daryl Cooper
This is trusted Albert, like she knew him and trusted Halpert.
- [56:52]
Scott Horton
Right. And she was the student of Christopher Andrews. And it was Christopher Andrews set up his own grad student who was. She was writing an essay or a book about an unknown, previously unknown secret group of Soviet spies in the United states in the 1930s. And they tried to pretend that she was a swallow and she was a new mother and a new wife and they smeared her as a spy and a whore and said that she had done all of this and had slept with Flynn. He had taken her back to his hotel and all this stuff. It was the same group. It was Christopher Andrews and Stefan Halper and all them that did that to him at the same time that the FBI had the intercepts of him on the phone with the Russian ambassador to the United States where he did absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever. We had every right to be on the phone with this guy. Although he should have known better than to just let set himself up to get screwed by the Obama people this way. But he did not do anything wrong on that call, other than ask the Russians to veto a UN Security Council resolution against Israel, which they declined to do for him. But he did not ask them or make any promises about lifting sanctions against Russia or anything like that. And they lied. They just, I don't, we don't know if they either won. And, and I'll tell you the. One of the very best things on this is a documentary at Tucker Carlson's website that they did about Flynn. They do such a good job of explaining this, how they brought Vice President Pence into the Situation Room and they either read him in on the lie and said, we're going to pretend this says what it doesn't say, or they gave him a fake transcript. Either way, someone was lying. And they said, look, you made all these promises to lift sanctions to the Russian ambassador and you lied to me about it, Mr. Flynn. And so. And then he took that to Trump and Trump fired the guy. Was one of the major successful things of the coup. All this is just completely made up. And I'm not a big fan of Mike Flynn. I wrote about him in Fool's Errand and in Enough Already. And, and yet he was never a traitor for the Russians, for God's sake. And this poor woman Lakova never did anything improper. She. She says she could prove she didn't even sit next to him at that thing. And she sued and sued and sued and sued until the British courts said, listen, lady, stop suing. We already denied your standing for whatever loophole reasons. And so. But there's every, there's zero reason to believe the accusations against her and every reason to believe in her 100 innocence there. And it just goes to show the absolute depravity of these people, what they will do. They're just this.
- [59:22]
Daryl Cooper
There was that other Russian woman, the one who was like a gun rights activist.
- [59:26]
Scott Horton
Maria. Yeah, Maria Butina.
- [59:29]
Daryl Cooper
She like 18 months in solitary and she did nothing wrong.
- [59:36]
Scott Horton
She was, as you say, she was trying to get guns legalized in Russia. She wasn't trying to influence American policy in any way. She was trying to get advice from American Republicans about how to handle the public relations for getting gun rights liberalized there in, in Russia. And then you're right, they just absolutely smeared her. See, there was this woman a couple years before named Anna Chapman, who also who actually was a Russian spy.
- [59:58]
Daryl Cooper
And they deprived her name. Yeah.
- [60:00]
Scott Horton
And see, she was a hot redhead. Well, so was Maria Butina. So they went, oh, look, see, get it. Hot redhead. And Then. So that's all you need to know. Did somebody say sex? And then. So they just got to pretend that she had infiltrated the Republican Party, that she had this relationship with this American Republican activist, and how somehow any of this was nefarious. And then you're right. They locked her in solitary until she would plead guilty to a FARA violation, which 99% of Washington, D.C. is guilty of and is only very rarely and selectively enforced.
- [60:35]
Daryl Cooper
And it's highly of at all.
- [60:37]
Scott Horton
She hadn't done anything to represent Russia's interests in this country. She was trying to represent just freedom's interests in Russia, period.
- [60:45]
Daryl Cooper
She was looking for, like, advice from people over here on, like, how can.
- [60:48]
Scott Horton
I. Yeah, there's a great article about her by James Bamford, the great intelligence beat reporter who wrote all the books about the NSA and everything. And he wrote a piece about her for the New Republic called you People's Shut the Hell Up. You have no idea what you're talking about. Or something like that. That's not the title, but that's what the article is about. I know this lady. You can't push this crap. It's not true. You know, and. And finally some of them back, and. Which, by the way, Robert Mueller didn't get her. Robert Mueller passed and let some lower scum at justice go ahead and try to get, what, a couple of notches on his belt by taking this woman out by. By like, chiming by, like, through adding a couple of. Of bits of loose change to the Russia Gate hoax. You know, just, oh, here's my two cents. And by framing up some poor lady. It's unreal, man. It's completely insane.
- [61:38]
Daryl Cooper
That would have changed nothing if, like, all it did for them, all it added to the Russia Gate thing for them was it, like, provided content for one week's news cycle. That's it. And they just tried to destroy this woman's life, locked her in prison. I mean, like you said, just shows the depravity of it. It, you know, like, you mentioned my origins.
- [61:55]
Scott Horton
So we don't know whether John Brennan and Hillary Clinton went golfing or bowling or smoking crack together or where exactly and how this was hatched, but it looks to me. Oh, and see, one more thing. I said. The Brits pretended that they handed this to him, but doesn't look like there was anything that that was based on. Looks like he just asked them to do that. But then he also confirmed that to Frontline that this begins in the end of 2015. Well, we know now because of all the newly released stuff. And I'm sorry, I'm not 100% on this stuff, but I know a bit of it, that it was at the very least in March that the Dutch dropped, eavesdropped on the Russians eavesdropping in on the Democrats. And they knew that the Clinton campaign is coming up with a story to smear Trump to distract attention from her missing emails and that FBI investigation into her scandal. So it's looking more and more like that was the origin. But I'm saying no, Brennan started it. He came first in 2015, potentially coordinated with her, but then she and the campaign were on it by at least March. They hired Perkins Coy, the law firm, on April 1. And those are the guys who hired Glenn Simpson from Fusion gps, who hired Steel, and they also hired the Georgia check team, the Georgia Tech team that did the Alpha bank hoax and helped with the fake attribution of the DNC and DCCC hack and leak and all of that, as well as CrowdStrike and all that. So that's. And then of course, the FBI, and we know for sure because the CIA covering their ass, or at least, you know, it's, it's, I think what happens is it's compartmentalization. Different desks and different departments and different dudes. So we know somebody at the CIA, and it couldn't have been Brennan, but somebody at CIA sent a criminal referral to the Department of Justice about the Hillary Clinton plan to frame Trump for treason in this way. And so the FBI got that and then quashed it. So, and we know that they knew all along that Hillary Clinton's team has this plan. We don't, I don't know if the FBI, I'd have to go back or maybe look forward and more to find out if the FBI knew that the Democrats were working with the CIA at that point, but we know that they knew that the Democrats were cooking this whole thing up to pin on Trump. And which means that every bit of investigating that the FBI pretended to do was always a hoax and was always in furtherance of the real plot, which was the plot against Trump. And you can see how over and over. And this was already in the Durham Report. It'll blow your mind if you haven't read. I beg everybody, read the Durham Report. There's the new declassified annex. But it is just amazing how many times they pretended not to know things so that they could proceed. Even as everything is coming up debunked, everything in the Steele dossier is coming up debunked FBI doesn't believe a word of it. John Solomon reported they created a big spreadsheet of here's every claim in the Steele dossier, here's everything that's true, here's everything in it that's salacious. And then you can see how everything in it that's true is just open source stuff and nothing that anyone is in trouble for. And then everything that looks like it might be criminal is obviously completely made up and verified nowhere. Right? And all of America's spies in Russia said what? We never heard of any of this. Carter Page and getting some giant kickback for some giant oil deal with rosneft or whatever. $700 million. Give me a break. This is all pathetic. They laughed it right out of the room. They all knew it was fake. The CIA dismissed the Steele report as pure Internet rumor. You know, the professionals doing their job just took one look at it and threw it right out. And yet they included it anyway. And they say, oh, it was just an annex to the most highly classified version of the report for Obama only. But that's not true. Because if you look at the great substack undead foia, he has this great thing where he compares claims in the ICA with claims in the Steele dossier. And you can see where they're just plagiarizing and rewriting like a junior high school student. But they're taking the conclusions out of the Steele dossier, which is totally made up nonsense about Russia's determination to help Trump win and all that, and they're putting it right in there. So, you know, and by the way, one more thing, people can check the record. It was April Glaspie Day, July 25, 2016, that I interviewed Jeffrey Carr, the computer security expert on my show. And he'd been writing about this for weeks. I was late to the game before I finally got him on and I interviewed him and he explained that any company or group of researchers or whoever who claims that they can tell you who hacked a server just by examining it is lying. One organization in the world that can tell you what, who really hacked that server, and that's the NSA. And they can tell you with 100 certainty because they can follow any packet anywhere in the world. They can rewind the whole Internet and watch whatever they want. So if the NSA doesn't know who did it, then it happened on site. Somebody went in there with a thumb drive or something like that. What do we know about the nsa? The NSA would do nothing but give low to moderate confidence behind all of these claims by the CIA and, or FBI and the NSA wouldn't stand behind them because they absolutely were not coming from the nsa. And that, my friend, is four days, five days before they ever launched Crossfire Hurricane. The whole, the core of the whole story was debunked on my show.
- [67:27]
Daryl Cooper
I remember the, you know, I saw a lot of people, and to a certain extent even myself, which I have no excuse for because I should have known better. But a lot of other people who were Trump supporters who, at first they were like, kind of worried, like, man, they're going so hard on this on every channel and every agency, like, maybe he didn't do what they're saying he did, but he had to have done something right. Like, they wouldn't just, they wouldn't just do this. And as time went on, they start to realize that, like, oh, no, actually he's innocent. Oh no, actually he's being framed. And, you know, one of the mistakes that they made is that they really underestimated the level to which a huge mass of the MAGA people were very plugged into this story. They were listening to Dan Bongino talk about it every day. They were listening to podcast, everything. Like, they were very plugged in. You talk about, forget Carter Page, talk about Igor Danchanko or Joseph Mifsu. They knew all about him. They knew all that stuff. And so it made it so when they came out with these speak and spell, like, kindergarten level lives, it was just, it was doubly insulting because the people were like. Because they knew, like, the lies weren't even meant to stand up to, like, basic scrutiny, let alone you're throwing them out in front of people who are listening to Dan Bongino tell you break every, like, single event down every day or reading every John Solomon article, you know, And I remember myself, like, I was obsessed with this story in 2017. And then the Mueller testimony happened and it was such a total disaster that it was like, you know, it was like, it was the way we felt in 2008 or late 2007 into 2008, being in the space of people that really saw the housing crisis coming and saw the whole, like, subprime just disaster. I was reading blogs called like, Housing Panic and Housing Bubble Blog and stuff back in 04. And so I'm watching this and you're kind of like wondering, like, this is interesting. It all makes sense. That jibes with the economics that I know and that I, you know, that I, that I sort of get on with. But then when it starts to happen, you're still like, no way. You just get the popcorn, you're just watching it. And that's how the, the Mueller report, like testimony was. And it was crazy because like all the Democrats, not just your average like supporters out there, wine moms and blue haired college students, but like you can tell like, you know, David Axelrod, like by the way he was talking about every, they thought Mueller was going to come in there and just freaking light Trump on fire. Like they thought this is, this is going to be the big show, this is it. And it was so bad that people like me who've been following this obsessively are like, all right, finally, here we go. Okay, they got caught. Now we're going to have a reckoning. And it became clear very quickly, just like with the financial crisis that, oh, nothing's gonna happen. And I can't keep reading about this stuff or I'm gonna like, you know what I mean? I'm gonna start Fed posting somewhere if I keep reading this stuff because nothing's gonna happen. So I just sort of backed away from it.
- [70:32]
Scott Horton
Well, you know what's cool now is you can just live all your vicarious rage through the Department of Justice, let them give John Brennan and Jim Comey fair trials and then lock them in the supermax next to the other terrorists like Ramsey Yousef.
- [70:47]
Daryl Cooper
They have to go hard on these people, dude. And I don't say that of partisan revenge or anything like that. This is like republic breaking stuff. This is the kind of thing when the security services take an active role in our politics like that, when they decide that they're the Praetorian guard that knows better and they're going to choose the emperor, what, that's the end of the republic? I mean, to the extent that, you know, one exists now, it's the end of whatever this thing is that we've got going. Once that starts happening and it works and they get away with it, it's never going to stop. And, and so we have one chance to make sure that every future FBI director knows every future CIA director. They're not going to get Obama and they probably shouldn't. There's certain kinds of like, you know, presidential immunity stuff I'm sure Trump doesn't want to mess around with, but they, you know, the president or the presidential candidate like Hillary Clinton can't do this on her own. She needed Comey, she needed Brian. In the future, if they want to try something like that, they're going to need people like that then. And so Those people need to know in the future when they think about doing this again, that when a new Hillary Clinton comes to him and says, hey, I got this idea to stop this monster from winning the election, that they think back and say, you know what? The old Hillary Clinton and everybody else skated scot free while Jim Comey and John Brennan went off to prison. So I am not getting involved with that. That is what we have to do.
- [72:12]
Scott Horton
Yeah, well, and look, I mean, what you say about the counter productivity of locking up Obama, I mean, when Ehud Ulmert went to prison in Israel, everybody knew it was just because he was corrupt and it was the rule of law, it was the federal police who took him down or the, you know, the Shin Bet, whatever. But it wasn't a partisan thing in this case. Just Trump locks up Obama. We could very well continue to do that back and forth and make things really ugly around here. Lower down, guys. Yes, I think at least it's within reason that you could do that. But is that really right that Comey's gonna go to prison? No. So I think here's what we should do. And this is what they really should have done with the torture thing, I guess as well, because they went back and forth, maybe we should do a blue ribbon commission, maybe we should do some indictments. And they end up doing neither. Right. So, but here's what you could do is you have Bongino and whoever and their men, whatever, the, the Pam Bondi's men, I guess, over justice, convene grand juries. Oh, did we lose our guy? Have them convene grand juries and issue essentially formal indictments and, and not ones that's full of assertions, but full of documentation to support the claims, and then just issue the full indictments, but then just don't press charges, don't actually lock them in prison, as much fun as I might have, you know, watching that, but instead truly indict the hell out of them in the public, where even Charlie Savage at the New York Times has to admit that, man, this is some pretty ugly stuff that I went along with here kind of thing, and just, you know, make it the ultimate truth and reconciliation thing. Well, Jim Comey certainly is guilty of felonies, you know, for political reasons. We've decided maybe not to push to lock him in solitary confinement like he deserves, but we all know he deserves it. And go ahead and make that much clear at the very least, because when you're talking about prosecuting people that powerful, the reality is they don't get prosecuted. It's not law. It's, it's policy. It's politics rather than the rule of law that applies at that level. So, in other words, you can make your magic wish, but these guys are going to go to prison, which, by the way, they did try to put Trump in prison. So might he go that far? Like, yeah, we'll see who goes to prison. Like, you know what? I'm not against it. If he wants to go that far, I, I certainly wouldn't protest. But I guess I'm just saying maybe we get the most truth if they would just, you know, persecute them publicly, but without actually locking them up, that kind of deal. I know. Don't. It looks like Daryl's gone and we're overtime anyway. So here's what we're going to do. I'm going to interview Matt Taibi tomorrow, and I'm also going to interview Anthony Aguilar, the Green Beret eyewitness to the war crimes in Gaza as well. And then I'm going to go celebrate Ron Paul's 90th birthday over the weekend with a bunch of good friends. And then we're going to be back here next week. And I will have done a very deep dive, all the newest developments in Russiagate, which I have touched on, at least some of the stuff here today. But we'll be able to really, I hope, tighten down the most important aspects of the latest developments in some kind of organized fashion for you. And we're going to get Daryl an Ethernet cable. It.