Alex's Husband Is Too Straight

Summary

Proxy with Yowei Shaw

Episode: Alex's Husband Is Too Straight

Date: June 2, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this emotionally candid episode, Yowei Shaw explores a highly specific relationship challenge faced by Alex, a nonbinary person partnered with a straight, cisgender man, Henry. As Alex transitions and moves away from traditional gender roles, they wrestle with the fear that Henry’s persistent straight identity may mean he still sees Alex as a woman. To provide insight and support, Yowei pairs Alex with a proxy couple: Elvis (a trans man) and his straight-identified husband Ryan, who have weathered similar terrain. Through frank conversation, the two couples unpack the complexities of gender, attraction, identity labels, and trust in long-term relationships that don’t fit neatly into conventional boxes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Alex's Conundrum: Nonbinary Identity in a Seemingly Heteronormative Relationship

• Alex’s Situation – Assigned female at birth, now identifies as nonbinary and uses they/them pronouns. Married to Henry, a cisgender straight man.
  • "My conundrum is working to understand and come to terms with what it means to be a non binary person who is assigned female at birth in a relationship that appears heteronormative." (04:17, Alex)
• Their Relationship's Evolution
  • Started as friends and roommates; became a couple on a bonding backpacking trip (05:29).
  • Alex describes Henry as deeply supportive throughout all transition milestones—pronouns, binder, testosterone, and top surgery.
• Support vs. Engagement
  • Henry’s unwavering support sometimes feels emotionally flat and unengaged:
    • "Cool. You do you. Doesn't question it. Just like, 'I’m on board. Whatever works for you, man.' ... Sometimes can be a little—I don’t know if jarring's the word—but ... you kind of expect... some kind of engagement." (07:25, Alex)
  • Alex doubts Henry’s ability or willingness to deeply reflect on or articulate his own feelings.

2. Internal Conflict: Gender, Sexuality & Dysphoria

• Straight Label Discomfort

  • Alex is stuck: If Henry identifies as straight, does he still see Alex as a woman?
    • "If you’re straight, then you’re attracted to women and I’m not one, but you’re still attracted to me. So...doesn’t that mean you see me as a woman?" (08:36, Alex)

• Sexual Intimacy & Dysphoria

  • Traditional sex positions trigger gender dysphoria and feelings of unwanted femininity.
  • Loss of sexual activity for a period; polyamory improves things by relieving pressure (10:22).

• Fear of Rejection

  • Ongoing anxiety: "What if Henry meets a woman who meets all his straight guy needs?" (10:35, Alex)

3. Meeting the Proxy Couple: Elvis and Ryan

Elvis's Story

• Met Ryan in middle school and came out as nonbinary in college (17:00).
• Gave Ryan a "get out of jail free card," but Ryan remained and later proposed.
• Elvis transitions to male, both socially and medically (testosterone, top surgery).
• Navigated family skepticism—Ryan’s family supportive, Elvis’s not (19:42–20:11).

Critical Conversations in Their Relationship

• Open discussions about what Elvis’s transition would mean, including bottom surgery and whether that would affect Ryan’s attraction.
  • "He was like, I love you more than I love random body parts. ... I value your happiness more than I value my own desire for random body parts." (22:03 & 22:27, Elvis quoting Ryan)
• Elvis shares fear: Would transition push Ryan away? Is attraction conditional on certain body parts? (21:39)
• Validation: Both express the process wasn't always smooth—trust, communication, and learning to take each other at their word were essential.

4. Labels, Attraction, and Navigating Identity

• Elvis & Ryan’s Labeling Dilemma

  • Ryan still identifies as straight, but is only attracted to Elvis as a man:
    • "I do still consider myself straight, and I absolutely do not see Elvis in any way as a woman. ... Elvis is just the only man I would ever be with." (34:28, Ryan)
  • Elvis jokes Ryan is "gay by proxy or gay by accident" (33:02, Elvis).
  • Elvis: "If I’m gonna get hung up on labels, that’s a me problem." (35:30, Elvis)

• Perceptions & Social Navigation

  • Both couples face assumptions and awkwardness from friends, family, and strangers—about sexuality, gender, and what their relationship "should" look like.
    • Elvis: "People are like, oh, I have this perception of you ... And then this little green goblin rolls up and is like, oh, hey, by the way, I'm his husband." (18:13)

5. Dealing with Sexuality and Sex Life Post-Transition

• Redefining Sex
  • Both Alex and Elvis describe difficulty feeling authentically themselves during sex, wrestling with internalized gender roles (27:18–30:29).
  • Elvis found it helpful to see trans men in affirming sexual roles—even when those acts challenged his own preconceptions about what "gay sex" or "manhood" looks like:
    • "It doesn't take away from the fact that I'm a man. ... When I do what feels good for me, my partner also enjoys it more." (28:03–28:58, Elvis)

6. Trust, Change, and Navigating Uncertainty

• Trust as a Foundation

  • Both couples wrestle with fear of abandonment or loss of attraction, but repeatedly circle back to the vital role of trust and believing your partner when they express love or commitment.
    • Elvis: "... He told me, he showed me who he was. And it was up to me to believe him." (50:04)

• Handling Uncertainty

  • Ryan is comfortable with ambiguity: "It's not a problem until it's actually a problem." (42:54, Ryan)
  • Alex expresses envy and aspiration towards that attitude.

7. Communication Differences & Cultural Context

• Communication Styles
  • Alex notices cultural gaps: Henry, like Ryan, uses direct, minimal language—while Alex is used to more emotional, reflective conversation (49:04).
  • "If this is the same way that Henry is, sometimes you do just got to take the two words that you get as truth." (48:52, Ryan)
• Correcting Pronouns in Public
  • Ryan is comfortable with confrontation and handles pronoun corrections with brevity and normalcy (45:40).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• The Sound of the Problem:
  "[It’s like] a really weird noise coming from the bottom of your car ... where you're like, what was that? It keeps happening. ... Oh my God. What?" (00:15, Alex)

• Fear of Being Seen as a Woman:
  "If you're straight, then you're attracted to women and I'm not one, but you're still attracted to me. So therefore doesn't that mean you see me as a woman?" (08:36, Alex)

• On Transition and Trust:
  "He was like, I love you more than I love random body parts." (22:03, Elvis quoting Ryan)

  "It's like, if you want to play the what if game ... are we going to be married to someone who was like, 'Oh, you've changed because of this tragic accident, I'm no longer attracted to you?' ... That's not a marriage I would want to be a part of." (24:49, Elvis quoting Ryan)

• Navigating Labels:
  "If I'm gonna get hung up on labels, that's a me problem." (35:30, Elvis)

  "I appreciate you being honest ... the labels just mess everyone up so much of the time." (36:04, Alex)

• Ryan on Sexuality:
  "I do still consider myself straight, and I absolutely do not see Elvis in any way as a woman. ... Elvis is just the only man I would ever be with, and I still view Elvis as a man, but at the same time, I don't view myself as gay or bi or anything like that." (34:28, Ryan)

• On Trust Lessons:
  "Over and over and over again, he told me, he showed me who he was. And it was up to me to believe him ... that's that he loves me and that's not going to change." (50:04, Elvis)

• Comic Relief & Humanity:
  "Would you love me if I was a worm?"
  Elvis: "Yes, 'cause then I could go fishing." (26:40–27:02, Elvis quoting Ryan)

• On Sex & Gender:
  "Now we make jokes where, like, no matter what type of sex we're having, it's gay sex." (29:58, Elvis)

• Post-surgery advice:
  "Dude. My nipples only just turned pink again. So if that's happening to you, don't panic." (55:04, Elvis)

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Important Timestamps (MM:SS)

• 04:12 – Alex describes their relationship concern and how their transition has changed things.
• 06:14–07:52 – Yowei and Alex discuss the emotional complexity of Henry’s supportiveness.
• 08:36–10:00 – Alex articulates discomfort about the straight label; explains how it impacts sex and intimacy.
• 15:35 – Introduction of the proxy couple, Elvis and Ryan.
• 17:00–22:27 – Elvis recounts the challenges, trust conversations, and family dynamics during his transition.
• 24:49 – Elvis discusses marriage and trust with Ryan's analogy about change and attraction.
• 27:18–30:29 – Alex and Elvis dive into the intersection of gender, sex, and redefining intimacy post-transition.
• 33:02 – Elvis jokes about Ryan being "gay by proxy or gay by accident."
• 34:28–36:58 – Ryan joins, offers his perspective on sexuality, attraction, and labels.
• 38:47–41:49 – Ryan describes his journey through confusion, finding support, and coming to love the "real Elvis."
• 45:40–46:15 – Ryan explains his method for handling pronoun corrections.
• 47:16–49:04 – The couples discuss differences in communication style and emotional expression.
• 50:04 – Elvis shares his final insight about trust and believing a partner’s actions and words.

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Key Takeaways

• Identity and attraction are messy—and that’s normal. The show demonstrates how deep relational security comes from open communication, trust, and a willingness to accept paradox, not from perfectly matching identities.
• Labels are limited tools. Rigidly applying identity labels (like "straight" or "bi") often fails to describe the full reality of fluid, evolving relationships. It’s okay not to have all the answers.
• Vulnerability builds connection. Both couples reveal fears of rejection, being misunderstood, and the struggle to trust that a partner means what they say with minimal words—but, over time, actions create reassurance.
• There’s no “right” way to have intimacy. Redefining sex on your own terms—outside gendered scripts—can be empowering and lead to greater mutual satisfaction.
• You’re not alone, even in the weirdest, most niche emotional struggle. Someone out there has navigated something similar, and their story can help normalize and guide yours.

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Proxy with Yowei Shaw continues to foster a space for the emotionally ambiguous, the niche, and the unresolved—a place for stories that don’t easily fit a script, but still matter deeply.

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If this episode resonated with you or someone you know, follow, rate, or share. Find more stories at proxyhq.org.

Transcript

[Yowei Shaw]

A quick note. Today's episode discusses sex explicitly, so do with that what you will. If you had to vocalize the sound of this niche emotional conundrum, what would it sound like?

[Alex]

Let me think for a second. Okay. I think it's like a really weird noise coming from like the bottom of your car when you like are going around turns and stuff where there's so much dread, where you're like, what was that? It keeps happening. Oh my God. What?

[Yowei Shaw]

Hey everybody, it's Yowei. On Proxy, we believe no one is ever alone with their problem because statistically, somewhere out there is somebody who gets it. And through the powers of reporting, we find them. Today's case what do you do when something big about you changes and you're not sure if your partner will be able to catch up? That's after the break. Okay, so this is for those of you in the New York City area. Proxy was selected to be part of the Tribeca Festival Podcast Showcase this year, which is very exciting. And it also means I will be in New York City to do a live panel discussion on June 13th at 2:30pm it's gonna be extremely nerdy. If you're someone who likes getting the behind the scenes of how podcasts get made, this is for you. Also. I would love to meet you. Tickets are $16 and you should also check out just like the whole slate of Tribeca Podcast. Radiolab has a live show, Fashion Neurosis has a live show, and there's also gonna be a concert and conversation between Hriikesh Hirway of Song Exploder and Adam Scott. You can get [e-mail] festival podcasts. This episode is brought to you in part by Quint's. Right now I am sweating in my recording booth because summer is here and this time I am equipped with a quince swimsuit that I don't have to worry about fading or pilling like my other swimsuits. I just got the Italian V neck bikini in cherry, which is made with recycled materials and has removable padding, adjustable straps, and a hook closure for a perfect fit. This is what you can count on. Quince high quality essentials for every season, like soft organic cotton sweaters for layering on cool summer nights and breathable 100% European linen pants, dresses and tops starting at $32. Everything at Quint's is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They're able to do that because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you are paying for quality not brand markup. Quint doesn't just do clothing. They've become a destination for elevated essentials across the home. Kitchen, bedding and beyond. Elevate your summer wardrobe. Go to quint.com proxy for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N c e.com proxy.

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[Yowei Shaw]

Well, so yeah, tell me, tell me why you wrote in what's your. What's your conundrum?

[Alex]

Okay. My conundrum is working to understand and come to terms with what it means to be a non binary person who is assigned female at birth in a relationship that appears heteronormative. So with a straight cisgender man, where I'm often perceived as the wife or the girlfriend, you just shrugged. I don't, I don't know if that captures it well enough.

[Yowei Shaw]

This is a listener who's going by Alex. And that, I don't know, shrug is a good image for what their conundrum is all about. Alex met their husband Henry when they were roommates and when Alex still identified as a woman. And Alex swears there were zero vibes until they went on a backpacking trip together. It was the first time they'd spent so much alone time together. And at first Alex was just charmed by how Henry took everything in stride, how hilly the path was, how heavy their backpacks were.

[Alex]

The funny thing about Henry is that he actually gets happier the more things get hard. So we're both like, maybe this was a huge mistake and freaking out. And he just thought that was hilarious.

[Yowei Shaw]

But then Alex realized they dropped their bear spray in grizzly country and they had to backtrack and hustle to make it to the campsite before dark. Luckily, they made it.

[Alex]

And because of the relief from the bear spray, I was like, let's bring it in. And I, like, initiated a hug. And then the hug was like way longer than I anticipated and I was like, oh, we're feeling something right now. And he like, nestled his head into my neck a little bit more than I anticipated. I was like, oh, intimacy.

[Yowei Shaw]

Since then, they haven't stopped hugging. They've been together for five years now, married for two. When I asked Alex what they love about Henry as a partner, it was a flood of things. Really sweet, adorable things. Like, Henry's a great listener who not only wants to put the work in to make the relationship better, he gets excited by that work. He frequently tells Alex that he's glad and grateful after they have a hard conversation. And he still gets excited by any time they spend together. Like, he'll sign up for races that he's not in shape for just so he can get more training runs in with Alex. In short, Alex is grateful to be with Henry, especially when it comes to their transition. At every stage over the last couple years, no matter what Alex brings up, they, them pronouns, a binder, testosterone, top surgery. Henry has been unquestioningly supportive. So much so that Alex has started to find it hard to believe. Can Henry really be so cool with all these changes?

[Alex]

I don't think any of these, like, small milestones. Henry's reaction was very different. Like a shrug and like, cool. You do you doesn't question it. Just like, I'm on board. Whatever works for you, man. Kind of. Which is like awesome and supportive, but sometimes can be a little. I don't know if jarring's the right word, but I don't know, you like kind of expect questions or like not pushback, but like some kind of engagement with the topic.

[Yowei Shaw]

Alex knows that Henry isn't the type to use filler words, that he means what he says. But still, transitioning is a huge deal. What if Henry just doesn't know how to talk about what he's feeling? What if Henry doesn't know how he feels? Do you feel like he sees you for your gender?

[Alex]

I don't know. How do you know that? Yo A. I can ask him and he can say yes and I can say, how do you know? And there's never really clear answers.

[Yowei Shaw]

And Alex finds himself wondering, but Henry, if you really do see me as non binary, why do you still identify as straight?

[Alex]

I mean, in some ways I think it's good to accept contradictions in our lives. But at the end of the day, it still feels weird to be on this other side of it of like, well, if you're straight, then you're attracted to women and I'm not one, but you're still attracted to me. So therefore doesn't that mean you see me As a woman, or do you just see me as how you used to see me when I was, like, presenting more as a woman?

[Yowei Shaw]

I can see why it's very easy to get in a loop.

[Alex]

Yeah, it feels kind of dysphoric, just kind of, like, icky. In general.

[Yowei Shaw]

This anxiety. Does Henry still see me as a woman? Has made sex with, not surprisingly, really difficult for Alex.

[Alex]

Well, traditional, like, missionary sex. I feel like there's a gender dynamic of, like, I am a piece of meat you are enjoying for yourself. There's just something about, like, being on the bottom, being, like, trapped. Yes. But then on the reverse side, like, if I am on top, it's a very, like, breast forward position to be in. I feel like. Yes. Look how, like, sexy of a woman I am. Which is, like, not feelings. I have.

[Yowei Shaw]

Almost anything Alex does in the bedroom makes them feel like they're performing as a woman. So a few years ago, they started having a lot less sex. Things are better now. The testosterone has made Alex a lot hornier and they opened up their relationship, which Alex says has actually been really nice for both of them.

[Alex]

It sounds so counterintuitive, but being poly is great for our sex life because, like, our needs can be met in other places. And then I could feel relief and not the pressure.

[Yowei Shaw]

But even though Henry insists that he's committed, that he's here for any version of the relationship, Alex can't stop worrying. What if Henry meets a woman who meets all his straight guy needs? Why would he want to stay with me? Do you think he's suppressing feelings that he's not telling you because he doesn't want to hurt you?

[Alex]

I think he could repress feelings of doubt because he's afraid of their consequences. Doubt about, like, oh, am I still going to be attracted to her when, See, look, I just, like, mispronoun myself from his perspective. Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Yowei Shaw]

Wow. It's so meta.

[Alex]

I know, right?

[Yowei Shaw]

I'm sorry.

[Alex]

That's okay.

[Yowei Shaw]

Is that a real question for you? Like, will he stay attracted to you?

[Alex]

Yeah, it is. If I, like, actually grew, like, a full mustache, would he still be attracted to me? I don't know.

[Yowei Shaw]

Alex and Henry are in couples counseling. They're working on all the things. But Alex has never talked to someone who is in a relationship like theirs. Specifically a straight CIS dude and a partner who's transitioned. And they love to. After the break, we meet that couple. If you haven't heard of Ear Hustle, my fellow radiotopian show, you are missing out. Ear Hustle Shares stories about what life is really like in prison, both inside and after you get out. Right now, they have some amazing new stories. There's an episode called My Favorite Color where we hear the conversation between a father and daughter who haven't seen each other in 26 years, partly because the daughter followed in her dad's footsteps and paid a heavy price for it. In another story, we meet a guy who, at the age of 13, got a tattoo job on his face that would influence the course of his life, and he has no regrets. And there's another story that explains how to hug someone when hugging itself is against the rules. These are the kinds of stories you hear on Ear Hustle. They're raw, they're deep, often very funny, and what Ira Glass called decidedly untragic. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. And for those of you in the Northeast, Ear Hustle has a live show that is swinging through at the end of May. Details [e-mail] Tor. After that first call with Alex, the proxy assignment was clear. We needed to find a straight CIS dude and his partner who transitioned, who were both willing to talk about the messy, confusing parts of that transition and how they managed to make it to the other side, still together and in love. And this time, I gotta say, I had a moment where I was like, will we find them? Why, oh, why, yowei, did you create a show that is so hard to report? And then two months later, we found the perfect couple and they said yes to a proxy conversation. I connect first with Alex.

[Alex]

Hello.

[Yowei Shaw]

How did the surgery go? How are you feeling?

[Alex]

It was good. Thank you. Yeah.

[Yowei Shaw]

Alex has just had top surgery, and Henry's been taking good care of them, Walking the dogs, cooking the meals. Henry's even started broaching the subject of his sexuality with his therapist, which Alex was hoping he'd do but didn't want to force.

[Alex]

But it didn't get very far because Henry was like, yeah, well, like, I am attracted to non binary people. And I asked him, like, oh, well, are you attracted to any AMAB assigned male at birth people? And he was like, oh, I'm not sure.

[Yowei Shaw]

How does that answer make you feel?

[Alex]

Oh, it just feels more affirming of the same worry that I had before, that he's just aggressively straight and trying to give me answers I want to hear.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, so the proxy's here. I'm gonna let them in. You ready?

[Elvis]

Ready.

[Alex]

Hello. Hello.

[Elvis]

Hi, Alex.

[Yowei Shaw]

On the screen, a guy with facial piercings pops up with short green hair tucked into a backwards Baseball hat. HE INTRODUCES HIMSELF so my name is Elvis.

[Elvis]

I actually, I live in PA and my husband Ryan and I have been together for about ten and a half years. We've been married for almost five.

[Yowei Shaw]

I asked both Elvis and his husband Ryan to be Alex's proxies, but wanted Alex and Elvis to have alone time first so they could openly dish about the dudes and their lives. As Elvis explained, he met Ryan way back when they were in seventh grade.

[Elvis]

We were in the same homeroom, and, like, the moment I saw him and he was this skinny little green bean with a bowl cut, I was madly in love. And he, like, he played baseball. He was super smart, like, very golden boy in my eyes anyway. And I was kind of this little, like, ragamuffin who did not have a great home life and could not figure

[Yowei Shaw]

anything out when they finally got together in high school. Back then, Elvis had long blonde hair and wore dresses. But then in college, Elvis came out to Ryan, and as non binary, I

[Elvis]

basically gave Ryan a get out of jail free card where I was like, hey, man, this is. I'm figuring out this is who I am. You did not sign up for this. You might not be attracted to this. Let me know. And that's okay. That doesn't make you a bad person. Like, you have a get out of jail free card right now. Just let me know what you're thinking.

[Yowei Shaw]

Ryan let Elvis know he was down, and a few weeks later, he proposed. After graduating from college, the two eloped and got married. That was five years ago. Today, Elvis is out as a trans man and he's medically transitioned with testosterone and top surgery.

[Elvis]

There's sometimes confusion when someone meets one of us and then meets the other. People assume that sometimes that either, like, I'm a lesbian or they meet Ryan and they're like, this is not who I imagined you would be with me 100%.

[Alex]

I feel that in Henry circles, there's a lot of hetero assumptions about what I will be like, because he's like, I don't know, just like the most basic white man you can imagine.

[Elvis]

Oh, my gosh, that is Ryan. He's fantastic. We grew up in, like, literally the middle of Amish country. And so, like, he's a baseball coach, he fishes, he Second Amendment's really big. Things like that, where people are like, oh, I have this perception of you based on where we live and what you look like. And then this little green goblin rolls up and is like, oh, hey, by the way, I'm his husband.

[Alex]

Okay, well, I Guess Elvis, you started talking about some ways the transition was, like, affecting yalls dynamic and relationship. But I'm curious what, like, the hardest parts about it were to go through together.

[Elvis]

There were a couple, like, like, set bumps in the road. I think the first one being, like, the change in expectation of. I'm going from the idea of a straight marriage to the idea of a gay one.

[Yowei Shaw]

Mm.

[Elvis]

Where like, and his family is extremely supportive. But it started with, like, hey, are you sure? Which was a valid question. Like, especially our age given. Like, hey, do you feel like. I don't know if they ever asked, like, hey, do you feel trapped? But there was a hey, are you sure? And when that was, like, yes, I am, then it's been great since.

[Yowei Shaw]

But Elvis's family, not so much. Elvis is adopted, and his parents were not cool with the transition.

[Elvis]

My adoptive family was like, this is a phase. You'll get over it. And then it wasn't like, I don't know if they thought Ryan would, like. Because they really liked Ryan. I don't know if they thought Ryan would, like, make me straight again. But it escalated where we were like, hey, you guys are being really transphobic. And Ryan called them out, and they were like, yeah, we're done. And, like, cut us off.

[Alex]

Whoa.

[Elvis]

And then I'd say one of the bigger moments when I very first came out, one of the big questions was, like, what do you want your transition to look like? And I did, like, from the. From the beginning. Like, I had a desire for HRT and I had a desire for top surgery. And this was before we got married. We had to very seriously discuss, like, bottom surgery, because that was really his only. I don't want to say hang up, but, like, his only big concern where he's like, hey, like, I don't know that that's something I could be cool with. He's like, everything else I can wrap my head around. Eventually, like, eventually we got to the point where he's like, everything else I can wrap my head around. He's like, but I. I don't know that I can do bottom surgery. And I was like, well, bottom surgery, that is not something I personally have a desire for. For a multitude of reasons. So our desires lined up that way. I treated it very much as, like, the do you want to have kids? Where do you want to live? Just one of those big questions you ask someone before you get married.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Yowei Shaw]

But no matter how many hard conversations they had, Elvis was still worried what Ryan would feel once the transition started. Once his voice Changed once he grew body hair. Would Ryan still be attracted?

[Elvis]

Like, I had a co worker flat out. Like, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm going on leave for top surgery. And I had a coworker flat out be like, is your husband going to miss your boobs?

[Alex]

Oh, my God.

[Elvis]

I know. And it was like, I don't know, but that's one of my worst fears where it was like, hey, I know you've been attracted to me through all these changes, but, like, is this one too much? Like, literally up and like up into the day of surgery, I was like, oh my gosh. Like, not is he gonna stop loving me?

[Alex]

But kind of, yeah.

[Elvis]

There was definitely this fear in my mind of like, I have to choose. Am I gonna keep what I had to keep him? And that was all internal myself. He was super reassuring during the whole process. The way he explained it to me was he was like, I love you more than I love random body parts. And I was like, oh, okay.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Elvis]

And he's like, and I value your happiness more than I value my own desire for random body parts.

[Yowei Shaw]

Well, Alex, I was wondering, like, how is any of what Elvis is saying sitting with you?

[Alex]

I mean, it feels affirming or validating just to hear that there is like a lot of concern about the relationship in context of your transition. Like, I feel like I had a lot of self judgment and projected judgment of others that I was like so much concerned about the relationship. And I felt like I should just be like, I just gotta like prioritize me and focus on what I need and that's most important. And it felt like valuing our relationship a lot in consideration of the transition felt like a transphobic thing to do for some reason. So, yeah, it's validating to hear your concerns going into it,

[Yowei Shaw]

I guess. Alex, do you have any questions around attraction and how Elvis has been able to work through that stuff? Those like hang ups or fears?

[Alex]

Yeah, I was assuming when you were describing it, Elvis, that it was just like time and communication also. But is that accurate? Are there more pieces to that process?

[Elvis]

I don't know if there's more pieces to the process. It was more like just trusting him that he is attracted to me when he says he is, but also not getting caught up on the what ifs. Like, I'm a big what ifs guy. Like, if this was an alternative universe, we'd never. Da, da da, da da. And then, you know, Ryan being so level headed, he's like, okay, I hear you, but we're in this universe. So we're worried about this one right here. And he's kind of turned it on me when I've come up with this, and he's like, dude, like. Like forever means forever. Like, we could, you know, if you want to play the what if game, what if one of us was in a tragic accident? Like, yeah, are we going to be married to someone who was like, oh, you've changed because of this tragic accident, I'm no longer attracted to you? Like, that's. That's not a marriage I would want to be a part of. Not that being trans is a tragic accident. Oh, my gosh.

[Alex]

No, I told you that.

[Elvis]

But, like, you know what I mean?

[Alex]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elvis]

It's kind of the same question of, like, oh, well, when we get old, are we still going to be attracted to each other? And it's like, it's not just about that at that point. Yeah, maybe if we were two strangers in a bar, we probably wouldn't connect or be attracted to each other on both sides. You know, I can continue to worry about that or I can accept, like, hey, we've. We've grown and changed together. Like, we're. We're both completely different people. That we were in seventh grade, that we were in 11th grade, that we were at the end of college.

[Alex]

Oh, you said that so nicely. I'm glad you named the trust piece of that too, because I think I don't always trust Henry's ability to know himself. And that feels like also just being raised as a cishet guy, you don't get a lot of practice with that. So, yeah, I think leaning into, like, trying to trust his process with that and that if he says it, what can I do except take him at his word? There's nothing I can control about that. And I do feel very hardcore what you described about, like, if it was any other situation, I would trust he would still love and care for me forever. So why is it this one thing that, like, I get stuck on the what ifs for? It reminds me of, like, the. I still do sometimes when we're, like, falling asleep. Like, what if I. If I was a worm, would you still love me? And he has the, like, similar energy you described to Ryan of, like. Of course. Or he'll just, like, poke fun at me or something. Be like, ah, this question again.

[Elvis]

But I asked him jokingly because I knew he was gonna be annoyed. I was like, would you love me if I was a worm? And he's like, yes. Cause then I could go fishing. But that's Been his personality the whole time of. He's like, please, that's insane. Stop it. He's like, no, I would not fall in love with a worm. And he's like, if I did fall in love with a worm, that'd be concerning. And I'm like, that's not the point of the question.

[Alex]

It's not the question. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. I feel like I never really thought about underlying message of that question is like, how much can I change and you still love me for me?

[Elvis]

Oh, yeah.

[Alex]

Okay. Well, I guess. Yeah, I'm curious. Elvis. You referenced navigating kind of gender expectations or vibes with like sex life stuff too, which we've been struggling with, because I don't know what it even means to have like gayer sex. And it's been dysphoric sometimes to have what feels like more gendered heteronormative sex. So, yeah, I was just curious about Yalls journey with that too.

[Elvis]

Yeah, it was a little difficult to be like, oh, is this

[Alex]

gay?

[Elvis]

I would get dysphoric if like, certain things turned me on and certain things didn't turn me on or I didn't want to do certain stuff that like other cisgendered gay guys were doing. But I like read a bunch of stuff and watched some stuff. Not to talk about anything like icky, but just seeing trans guys in porn or whatever do things that didn't take away from the fact that they were guys and were comfortable and happy and their partner obviously didn't think that they were super feminine. And that kind of helped. Like, hey, yeah, okay, this is something that maybe I've seen someone who is feminine do. But it makes me feel good. So I'm doing it. And it doesn't take away from the fact that I'm a man. I'm just doing what feels good. And when I do what feels good for me, my partner also enjoys it more.

[Alex]

Yeah, yeah, I hear you. I definitely still am working through my own hangups about, like, if I do this thing, isn't there an expectation that I do it, like in a feminine way or, like, somehow perform my femininity, like doing this position or something? So yeah, I've been trying to like, grab grapple with that.

[Elvis]

It doesn't matter if you're cis trans, gay straight people are gonna get off with different stuff, like whether that's toys, kinks, like sexuality is such a spectrum of randomness that like genitals is actually such a teeny, tiny little part of it.

[Alex]

Right?

[Elvis]

Once we started figuring out the other things that worked for us and made both of us more comfortable in the bedroom or let both of us have more fun, the genital thing kind of just kind of fell to the slide. We're connecting and feeling good in this moment. Who cares how we're doing it?

[Alex]

Yeah, Just being humans together. That sounds awesome.

[Elvis]

Now we make jokes where, like, no matter what type of sex we're having, it's gay sex.

[Alex]

Yeah, that makes sense. Okay. It feels less constrictive, it sounds like. And it's making me feel like there's more options and freedom to just think more expansively. And also, it sounds like it was a process of, like, moving beyond kind of normal expectations of sex.

[Yowei Shaw]

When we return, Elvis's husband Ryan enters the chat. Hey, it's yoe poking in for a second. If this episode made you think of a friend who's trying to love someone through a big change or a family member who needs to hear that relationships don't always fit neatly inside labels, send them this episode. Also, Proxy is a tiny independent show that mostly grows by word of mouth. And that one text helps people find us. All right, ads. So one of the biggest concerns that Alex has is that their husband Henry still identifies as straight, which makes them feel weird. Makes them feel like their husband still sees them as a woman, which they are not. So Alex brought this up with Elvis.

[Alex]

Yeah, I've been definitely still on the journey of, like, Henry identifying as straight and then me doing the complicated puzzle in my head of like, well, if you're attracted to me and you're straight, doesn't that inherently mean you don't see me as non binary? And that's been a little difficult for us.

[Elvis]

That makes sense. Yeah.

[Yowei Shaw]

Elvis, do you relate to that hang up at all?

[Elvis]

I definitely do. It was probably more so in the beginning when I was like, in the very beginning of that pipeline where I still presented very feminine but had come out as non binary. And it was kind of hard for me to wrap around. Just because my gender identity changed doesn't necessarily mean his sexuality changed.

[Alex]

Right.

[Elvis]

But I don't remember too much of, like, a solid period where he was like, no, I am straight. And I was like, well, that's not cool with me.

[Alex]

Wait, can I ask a clarifying question? Does Ryan identify as straight then or something else?

[Elvis]

He has actually started just refusing to answer the question. Not bald faced, but more so, like, it's none of your business. He's like, unless we're trying to sleep together, it's not your business. But we do like we do make jokes. He says he's gay by proxy or gay by accident.

[Alex]

Oh, my God, the name of your podcast.

[Elvis]

But, yeah, you have to ask him. I wonder what he'll say this time.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, well, on that note, Ryan is here. He has arrived in the virtual waiting room. Should I let him in?

[Alex]

He's arrived.

[Yowei Shaw]

Let him in.

[Ryan]

Hello. How are you?

[Yowei Shaw]

Elvis's description of Ryan as golden boy is exactly what I'm seeing. A dirty blonde dude with muscles, and behind him, a shelf stacked with an astounding number of baseball caps. On screen together, Elvis and Ryan look like they would be sitting at different lunch tables. Alex, meet Ryan. Ryan, meet Alex.

[Ryan]

Hi, Alex.

[Alex]

Hello.

[Yowei Shaw]

We do a quick round of introductions and. And then Alex asks Ryan the question they're most curious about.

[Alex]

Well, I'm curious about, like, Elvis's transition, how you think about and understand your own sexuality. And I only ask that because I've had some difficulty navigating with Henry, like, his understanding of his sexuality.

[Elvis]

If.

[Alex]

If he identifies as straight, does that mean that he still sees me as a woman? And that feeling a little dysphoric. So, yeah, I was curious about your own journey with that.

[Ryan]

We have had that conversation quite a few times. I do still consider myself straight, and I absolutely do not see Elvis in any way as a woman. It's confusing. Even when I say by myself out loud, it's confusing. I think the way I like to think of it is Elvis is just the only man I would ever be with, and I still view Elvis as a man, but at the same time, I don't view myself as gay or bi or anything like that. I just. The only man I'd ever want to be with is Elvis. And I don't know how else to explain that.

[Yowei Shaw]

I check to see what Elvis is doing with his face, but he's looking down at his hands. I wonder if he's feeling a bit deflated that Ryan still identifies as straight. I'm just curious, Elvis, what do you think about Ryan's answer since it's been a while since you've heard it? Um,

[Elvis]

it's one of those things where, like, it's. You know, there's. There's things we kind of have to accept about each other, but also, like, it's not something I really have a problem with. I trust Ryan that he means what he says, and that's the case. And if I'm gonna get hung up on labels, that's a me problem. And just kind of understanding, like, sexuality's not a straight line either. I don't know that I would be with another CIS man after, like, if anything happened between Ryan and I. Yeah.

[Yowei Shaw]

Alex, how does it resonate with you?

[Alex]

Yeah, no, that's so fair. I appreciate you being honest and you just being you with it, because I think it feels like the labels just mess everyone up so much of the time. So I don't want anything about my gender transition to mean that, like, Henry has to think of himself as bi or something like that, because that wouldn't be helpful for him or for me. I think him knowing that that's a possibility and that that's okay and fine, I feel like that might be just more freedom for him as he navigates that too. So it made me feel a little bit of relief on Henry's behalf. Oh, I was gonna ask Ryan, too. Like, you sounded very sure that you do see Elvis as his true gender. Now, how do you, like, know that? Internally,

[Ryan]

I think it just. When I talk about him or, like, even just think about him, it's always as a guy. I don't ever hesitate with he, him pronouns. I don't ever expect any gender norms that would be female. It hasn't always been like that. There were times where I did struggle and did hesitate and did not innately know that he was a man, especially early, very early in the transition. But now I have no issues with that. I've fully a man in my eyes.

[Alex]

Okay, that's awesome. So it sounded like it was a bit of a journey, though. It took you a second to get there?

[Ryan]

Oh, for sure, for sure. First, actually, Elvis came out to me as bi before he came out to me as a man. And I surprisingly struggled a whole lot more with Elvis being bi than I did with Elvis being a man. I think that went back to my insecurities of, would Elvis still be attracted to me as a guy if he's starting to see some women in that light as well? When it came to coming out as a man, that was a little bit longer of a period coming out. First it was he was okay with they, them, and she, her pronouns. And it was just they, them. And then it was they, them, and he, him, and now it's completely he, him. But there was a long transition period where I didn't know how to refer to Elvis as. So that was a bit of a journey, just being able to narrow down exactly how to refer to my partner.

[Yowei Shaw]

What was the transition like for you as Elvis's partner?

[Ryan]

At first, it was almost entirely confusion. I Never met anybody who transitioned. I am very, very new to this whole side of things and my parents were not much of a help in explaining anything. So we were all confused as a family. And for me specifically, a big thing was to find somebody to talk to pretty early in this transition period. Somebody who didn't even know Elvis. Somebody that I can just talk and say whatever is coming to my mind and talk absolutely freely without the fear of offending somebody. Because I. I've said things I don't mean. I said things I didn't even believe at the time. I was confused, scared. I didn't know exactly what was going on. Just to have somebody to shout at and just have those feelings without it meaning anything. It was really helpful for me. And once we kind of sat down and talked about what it meant, I was excited to get to see who Elvis really is. Because when you are pretending so long to be somebody that you're not, you don't really get to see the real person. And I am so much more in love with the real Elvis than I was with before.

[Yowei Shaw]

Wait, Elvis. You just stuck your tongue out and you're dancing. How does it make you feel to hear that?

[Elvis]

I just love him so much.

[Yowei Shaw]

And Alex, you smiled when Ryan said, I'm so much more in love with the real Elvis.

[Alex]

Oh, yeah. I don't know. It was just very sweet to witness and just nice to be like, oh, I didn't think about it that way before.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, so Ryan, say more about what you mean. Unpack that for us.

[Ryan]

Yeah, just me noticing Elvis being goofy and happy and more free and able to do and say and dress and act the way that he wants to do those things instead of trying to fit into a box. That just doesn't apply. I just know there was an expectation at home to dress a certain way, act a certain way, talk a certain way. And when we moved in together and that wasn't the expectation anymore, I noticed Elvis cut his hair, wore a lot more guy's clothing, was able to go do things like go out with friends more, go longboarding more, be free in those aspects where that wasn't the case before. So being able to see that and get to learn new interests, new hobbies, do all those things together, it's really cool. And I don't think that's something that we would have been able to do that long ago.

[Alex]

Elvis mentioned there's just some nerves too for him regarding top surgery and how that would be for you attraction wise. And there's a level of not knowing so I'm just curious how you navigated that uncertain.

[Yowei Shaw]

I was.

[Ryan]

I mean, I think it's pretty natural and safe to say. I was worried about that too, especially growing up and maturing and being straight my entire life. It is something that I was pretty worried about. When we talked about physical and medical transitioning, I wasn't sure exactly how that would affect my attraction to Elvis, and it really hasn't. I'm still just as attracted to Elvis as I was.

[Alex]

Yeah. I'm so glad it all worked out. It sounds like when you were in the uncertain phase, like, you just communicate about it and just sat with it and, like, that's all it took. Was there any, like, special sauce to make uncertainty okay?

[Ryan]

No. I drive Elvis nuts with this all the time. I'm very good at handling uncertainty. For me, it's not a problem until it's actually a problem. So I try my best not to worry about things that might occur down the road or might be a problem later. Once it is, I'll be able to handle it then. But until it's a problem and it hasn't been a problem at all, I don't really need to worry about it all that much.

[Alex]

Wow. I wish I was born that way. That would be great. Elvis was mentioning, too, that sometimes being perceived as having a male partner can be a little bit rough to navigate sometimes. And on my side of things, my partner Henry is really awkward about it. So I was curious how you navigate that.

[Ryan]

I'd like to think I'm not super awkward about it, but I do work in a very rural area with a lot of of older people who tend to be very conservative.

[Yowei Shaw]

Ryan is a wound care nurse and he drives to people's houses every day in rural Pennsylvania. And sometimes when the conversation gets personal, people have a negative reaction.

[Ryan]

I've been asked to leave people's houses and not come back. I've been kicked out of patients houses by themselves and their family members. So because my job and my pay structure is based on how many patients I see, I typically just don't discuss that with my patients. My coworkers, my boss, my whole company. I have no problem talking to them about it. But especially the older population of patients that I see, they tend not to accept that very much. And I can't be a home health nurse that's only allowed to see a quarter of the county. It's not going to work super well.

[Alex]

Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad you do have spaces where you can talk about it comfortably.

[Ryan]

Oh, absolutely.

[Alex]

I mean, honestly, Me and Henry are awkward about correcting people. Usually both of us kind of wait until an explicit question is asked, and then we'll, like, be upfront about it. But obviously, people are quick to make assumptions, and Henry's, like, getting better and better at correcting folks and just, like, always using they them. And then sometimes people fill in and interpret a she or her, even though he is using my correct pronouns. So I just curious how you navigated correcting people and what that journey was like to make it easier in spaces where, like, it was safe and okay to do that.

[Ryan]

For me, What I typically do is not make any sort of big deal about. It is like, for example, if somebody were to use the incorrect pronouns, I would address it and get immediately right back into whatever conversation we were having. Just be like, oh, it's actually he, him. And then continue the conversation. And the quicker you can correct it and make it normal and make it just part of the conversation, I found that that makes things a little bit easier for the person to take and accept and to implement in their own speech.

[Alex]

And what was that like for you internally? I'm curious.

[Ryan]

Oh, I love confrontation. So it really wasn't much of an issue.

[Elvis]

There are times where I'll watch it happen. Like, in his mind, like, I see the wheels turning. He's like, say something.

[Alex]

Do it.

[Yowei Shaw]

That's a very useful personality trait to have in this situation.

[Ryan]

In certain situations, yes.

[Elvis]

In some situations, yeah.

[Alex]

Yeah. Okay. Well, Henry's very much like a. Oh, okay, great.

[Yowei Shaw]

Cool.

[Alex]

Yeah, I'm happy to do that kind of guy and not like a let's have a big conversation to process all of our thoughts and feelings about it, which is, like, totally fine and fair. So I'm curious what that looks like for you two. If there was, like, Elvis anyways, like, you wanted support that looked different from your expectations to Ryan's. And how y' all navigated that.

[Elvis]

Yeah, especially around, like, top surgery. I don't know if it's how, like, being raised female, being an extrovert, how I just like to communicate. Like, I'm not sure what that would fall into. But with top surgery, I'm like, I have my consultation. And he was like, cool. Whereas, like. Like, my queer friends or my girlfriends were like, ah, that's so exciting. And I'm like, you're not excited? And he's like, yeah, because I'm gonna be the one to empty your drains every 12 hours. Like, I'm not. But, like, that was his perspective. Not. I'm not excited because this is happening. I'm not excited because band aids are yucky, and now I have to do it after work. Like, hey, I said that was cool. And if it wasn't cool, I would say that's not cool.

[Alex]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Conversation had.

[Elvis]

Yeah, but that's definitely more of a personality thing where, like, I have to take him at his word when it's one or two words.

[Alex]

Ryan, do you ever have, like, follow up questions?

[Elvis]

I don't know.

[Alex]

How curious are you?

[Ryan]

Yeah, I'm curious. I do ask questions when I want to know the answer to something. But my family, we say what we mean and we don't say much else. And that's how I grew up. My mom's side and my dad's side. That's how everybody talks. And putting extra words into sentences to make it more exciting just doesn't seem genuine because that's not how anybody in my family would talk. And I'm working on doing it a little bit more than that. I'm starting using exclamation points in my text messages. You'd be proud. Whoa.

[Elvis]

Oh, huge growth.

[Ryan]

I know, I know. Like Elvis said, if this is the same way that Henry is, sometimes you do just got to take the two words that you get as truth. Sometimes there's no hidden messages.

[Alex]

Yeah, yeah, that's fair, I guess. I also just, like, expected. I'm used to, like, reflective questions a lot from, like, a lot of my close female friendships of like, oh, my gosh, what are you feeling right now? Tell me everything, you know, kind of responses. And that's. That's just not.

[Elvis]

Yeah. And I wonder, like, when you're raised in an environment of constant subliminal messages, either from, like, other women or family members or whatever, when you pair up with someone who has no subliminal messages, it's like a culture shock. I said what?

[Alex]

I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's definitely a piece of it for sure.

[Yowei Shaw]

Looking back at this experience, it seems like y' all are further down the road than Alex and Henry. Is there any other lessons you learned that would have been helpful to know early on?

[Elvis]

The biggest thing for me is, like, because trust was such a severe part of my background, like, I struggled to trust anybody, not just like, a sexual partner, but anybody that was in my life. And literally up until a year ago. So we'd been together almost 10 years, and I was still like, is Ryan gonna leave me for a woman just having those constant fears? And over and over and over again, he told me, he showed me who he was. And it was up to me to believe him and be like, okay, like, this is a man who's been completely consistent since the day I've met him, who has never faltered in this aspect. Like, it's time for me to grow up and believe what he's telling me, and that's that he loves me and that's not going to change. And God forbid, if something did change in the future, that we're both healthy and mature enough to discuss that and go from there.

[Yowei Shaw]

How does that sit with you, Alex?

[Alex]

Oh, it's nice. It's good. It just feels good to see y' all in a stable place down the road and living outside of boxes and labels and being able to just be your genuine selves. Unfailingly, I guess. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. I wish. I wish that for everybody and definitely for us as well. I'm really grateful for y' all and your time. It's so cool.

[Ryan]

Of course. Hope we helped a little bit.

[Alex]

Definitely.

[Yowei Shaw]

Thank you to Alex for being our guest today, and thank you to Elvis and Ryan for being our proxies. Proxy will be back on Tuesday, June 16, and every other Tuesday till summer. Follow the show so you don't miss the next case. And if you're new here, I recommend trying the episode Bisexual Wife Guy next, another story about what happens when someone's identity inside a relationship changes. Proxy is an independent show, and we grow almost entirely by word of mouth. So if this episode made you think of someone in a similar situation, send it to them. That one text is how people find us. If you want to spend more time with us. And why wouldn't you? You can go to proxyhq.org that is where you will find our free newsletter file under Feelings, which is full of episode liner notes, show gossip and dispatches from the Emotions Bee. And if you want to help Proxy keep existing as a weird, beautiful show, you can become a paid member. Paid members get bonus episodes ad free listening invites to live Proxy hangs, and most importantly, you help make this very particular kind of reporting possible. Every Proxy case starts with someone's very specific problem, and then we go out into the world to find someone who's lived something close enough or has relevant experience to help that person feel less alone. Today, that meant finding Elvis and Ryan. Shout out to Proxy scout Renny Srinivsky for doing that. Again, just go to proxyhq.org and a salute to everyone who's already signed up to become a member. It matters. This episode was edited by Tim Howard, mixed by Kyle Pulley and produced and scored by me with help from Rennie Svirnofsky and Mathilde Erfelino. Music in this episode by Tim Howard. Our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Proxy is a proud member of Radiotopia from prx, a network of independent creator owned listener supported podcasts. Audrey Martovic is the executive producer of Radiotopia. Yuri Lozorto is the Director of operations discover audio with Visionadiotopia FM. You can follow us on Instagram, ProxyPodcast and I'm awayshaw. And remember, if you have a niche emotional conundrum you'd like investigated by proxy, get in [e-mail] we're taking cases. Okay, thanks for being here guys. Happy pride.

[Elvis]

Here, I can show you. I got mine a few months ago.

[Alex]

Oh nice. That's looking good.

[Elvis]

Dude. My nipples only just turned pink again. So if that's happening to you, don't panic. Radiotopia

[Alex]

from PRX.

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