Aparna and the Self-Loathing Introvert

Summary

Proxy with Yowei Shaw: Aparna and the Self-Loathing Introvert

Release Date: May 20, 2025
Host: Yowei Shaw
Guest: Aparna Nancherla, Comedian and Author of Unreliable Narrator

Introduction: Setting the Scene

In this deeply personal and insightful episode of Proxy, Yowei Shaw engages in a heartfelt conversation with comedian Aparna Nancherla. The episode delves into the struggles of being an introvert in a predominantly extroverted society, exploring themes of self-acceptance, cultural stereotypes, and personal growth.

The Silent Brunch: Aparna's Awakening

[02:47] Aparna recounts a brunch she hosted for local journalists, where despite the impressive spread, the room was uncharacteristically silent.
Aparna Nancherla: "I'm used to being the quietest person in the room. But somehow I'd managed to gather an entire room full of people quieter than me."
This experience sparked her introspection about her introverted nature and the societal pressures to be outgoing.

Cultural Context: Extroversion as the Ideal

Aparna references Susan Cain's Quiet, highlighting how cultural shifts from the late 1800s to the present day have increasingly valorized extroversion.
Aparna Nancherla: "Back in the late 1800s, advice manuals mainly preached about character and inner virtue. But by the 1920s, the advice had flipped and self-help guides were all about teaching how to make people like you and have a, quote, masterful personality."
This cultural evolution, coinciding with urbanization and industrialization, has entrenched extroversion as the desired personality trait from school through the workplace.

Personal Struggles with Introversion

Aparna opens up about her personal battle with introversion, exacerbated by cultural stereotypes as an Asian American woman.
Aparna Nancherla: "As an Asian American woman, I fear I inhabit an unfortunate stereotype, and my natural introversion can spiral into bigger anxieties and insecurities."
She discusses the internal conflict between her authentic self and the expectations placed upon her by society and her cultural background.

The Role of Family and Early Experiences

Yowei delves into her own upbringing, discussing how her South Asian family emphasized extroverted behaviors.
Yowei Shaw: "My mom is always like, anything you can't do, there is a class that will help change that. She's very learning oriented."
She shares anecdotes about her mother's efforts to coax her out of her shell, including practicing phone orders and enrolling her in Toastmasters.

Comedy as a Path to Self-Acceptance

Aparna and Yowei explore how Aparna's journey into comedy served as a mechanism for overcoming her introversion.
Aparna Nancherla: "Seeing the way humor gains you favor with an audience felt like a way to get into people's heads or for them to understand me better."
She highlights that humor provided a structured and controlled way to connect with others, contrasting with the often murky dynamics of casual social interactions.

The Introvert-Comedian Paradox

Despite the stereotype that comedians are extroverted, Aparna and Yowei discuss the prevalence of introverts in comedy.
Yowei Shaw: "There are actually so many comedians who are introverts, but so many of them hide it really well."
Kristen (Caller): "If every comedian who was an introvert came out as an introvert, I think that would be very good PR for us and do a lot to undo this stereotype."
They emphasize that the public persona of a comedian often masks their true introverted nature, creating a paradox where introversion and performance coexist.

Practical Tips for Introverted Performers

Aparna offers practical advice for introverts navigating the performance world.
Aparna Nancherla: "One thing you learn pretty quickly is if the audience feels like you're trying too hard to figure out what they want or you're catering too much to them, they can pick up on you not being as authentic."
She encourages performers to lean into their authentic selves and find comfort in their unique presence, rather than forcing an extroverted facade.

Breaking Stereotypes and Embracing Authenticity

The conversation shifts to the importance of representation and the need for diverse personalities in media and performance.
Aparna Nancherla: "We're out here... we're a group that's constantly existing in opposition to a world that's demanding constant performance."
Both guests advocate for embracing one's authentic self and challenging the narrow definitions of success and likability that favor extroversion.

Final Reflections: Embracing the Introvert Self

As the episode concludes, Aparna and Yowei reflect on their journeys towards self-acceptance.
Aparna Nancherla: "I'm proud to be part of a group that's doing our thing, even if the world doesn't fully get us."
Yowei Shaw: "I look up to introverts who don't try to contort themselves at all, because I still struggle with sometimes trying to be a version of myself that isn't fully me."
Their dialogue underscores the value of authenticity and the ongoing journey of self-discovery and acceptance.

Notable Quotes

• Aparna Nancherla [02:47]: "I was filled with revulsion at the people I just hosted... I realized it had everything to do with me because they reminded me of something I don't like about myself."
• Yowei Shaw [14:53]: "My mom is always like, anything you can't do, there is a class that will help change that."
• Aparna Nancherla [23:27]: "Can I send it to you to read?"
• Yowei Shaw [25:31]: "The process of becoming a comedian and getting really good at it was also a process of learning to accept yourself."

Conclusion

Proxy sheds light on the intricate and often overlooked challenges faced by introverts, particularly within cultural and professional contexts that prioritize extroverted traits. Through heartfelt storytelling and expert insights, Aparna Nancherla and Yowei Shaw offer a nuanced exploration of self-acceptance and the societal pressures to conform to extroverted ideals. This episode serves as both a mirror and a guide for listeners grappling with similar emotional conundrums, encouraging them to embrace their authentic selves.

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Note: This summary omits promotional segments, advertisements, and non-content-related conversations to focus solely on the episode's core discussions.

Transcript

[Yowei Shah]

Hey.

[Aparna Nancherla]

Hey, babe.

[Yowei Shah]

Hi.

[Kristen]

Okay, so if you had to write a billboard for this episode, what would it be?

[Shankar Vedantam]

Jeez, this is not my strong suit. Hmm, let's see. Don't feel bad about who you are. Being quiet is also sick.

[Aparna Nancherla]

This is Proxy. And I'm Yowei Shah, your emotional investigative journalist. Today, the case of the self loathing introvert who keeps wishing for personality puberty to hit. That's after the break.

[N/A]

I'm Shankar Vedantam, here to tell you about a great mystery. That mystery is you. As the host of a podcast called Hidden Brain, I explore big questions about what it means to be human. Questions like, where do our emotions come from? Why do so many of us feel overwhelmed by modern life? How can we better understand the people around us? Discover your hidden brain. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Aparna Nancherla]

So there's a story I'm not proud of. A while ago, I had a brunch at my house. It was a brunch for local journalists, and on paper, it was a totally nice time. Around 10 people came, all women. The food was fucking awesome. Somebody made a breakfast casserole. Somebody else brought coconut rice with anchovy potato crisps. But here was the thing about this brunch. I'm not sure why. Maybe because a lot of us didn't know each other. Whatever the reason, at this brunch, sitting around my cramped dining table, I noticed that nobody was talking. Like, really?

[Kristen]

It was painful.

[Aparna Nancherla]

I'm used to being the quietest person in the room. But somehow I'd managed to gather an entire room full of people quieter than me. And at a certain point, I was like, I don't have a choice in the matter. I'm the party host.

[Kristen]

I'm gonna have to get people talking.

[Aparna Nancherla]

So I lobbed a few softball questions to the room. Favorite restaurant in Chinatown. How long has everyone lived here in Philadelphia? I hated the sound of my voice. When that ran dry, I started interrogating people about their jobs. Is there drama on your team? Are there good benefits? It felt like I was pulling teeth. Finally, the party was over. I said goodbye to the last person and shut the door. And then this really confusing thing happened. I'm ashamed to say this, but I was filled with revulsion at the people I just hosted. I was so relieved they were gone. I think I literally said out loud, I will never host an event like that again. And to be clear, I liked and admired everyone at the brunch. These were smart, nice, cool people. And who knows why no one was talking. Maybe they thought the host was being hella weird. It took me a while to figure out what was going on, that my disgust had nothing to do with the people at the brunch and everything to do with me because they reminded me of something I don't like about myself. The quiet, introverted part of me I've been trying to get rid of for years. And look, I know this is gross. I know it's a spectrum. I know that most people are a mix of introverted and extroverted. Introverts being quieter, more introspective and deliberate, really into alone time. And extroverts being more talkative, outgoing, energetic, really into socializing. And yes, I'm aware that lots of introverts are happy with their personalities. I would like to get there too, because for a long time I felt like my introversion was a character flaw I needed to fix. And apparently there's a reason for that. In her book Quiet, Susan Cain argues that we live in a culture where extroversion is the ideal personality type. She says it wasn't always this way. Back in the late 1800s, advice manuals mainly preached about character and inner virtue. But by the 1920s, the advice had flipped and self help guides were all about teaching how to make people like you and have a, quote, masterful personality. This shift coincided with industrialization and more and more Americans leaving their small towns and moving to cities where suddenly they had to make a good impression on all the strangers they were meeting. Fast forward to today and Kane says the extrovert ideal is still with us. It starts early in school, where quiet children are pushed into group activities and told to come out of their shell. And then in college, students are graded.

[Kristen]

On speaking up in class.

[Aparna Nancherla]

Then at work, employees are expected to make small talk in offices without walls. And studies have found that talkative people are rated smarter, better looking, more interesting, more desirable as friends.

[Kristen]

And for me, I'm not just quiet.

[Aparna Nancherla]

I'm a quiet Asian woman, which really means I'm a walking stereotype. Or at least that's my fear. So, yeah, I've got some shame. I've definitely wished I was someone else sometimes. Still do. And then a few months ago, I came across a book by comedian Aparna Nancherla where she talks about my exact emotional conundrum. In her memoir, Unreliable Narrator, she writes, as an Asian American woman, I fear I inhabit an unfortunate stereotype, and my natural introversion can spiral into bigger anxieties and insecurities and about not taking up enough space and not speaking up enough for my group. She goes on to write despite the reluctant crawl towards self acceptance, I've noticed, to my abject horror, that I have started to resent shyness in others. If they are quieter than I am, if they don't make more of an effort to put acquaintances at ease, well, why not? Why aren't you contorting yourself to society's unyielding, ridiculous standards like I am?

[Yowei Shah]

A lot of times I'll feel sad for no reason, but then I'll remember some of the reasons.

[Aparna Nancherla]

You know, I really like Aparna's comedy. It's this very specific, oddball, low key kind of humor where she's able to bring the crowd to the weird rooms.

[Kristen]

In her brain whenever it's like pouring outside.

[Yowei Shah]

As a. As a sad person, you can turn to any random optimist on the street and just be like, hey, you're in my world now.

[Aparna Nancherla]

And maybe I should have guessed, but when I read her book, I was surprised to learn that she was an introvert. A recovering self hating introvert who, like me, works in an industry where you get paid to talk. Well, I'm still working on the whole getting paid part. Aparna's book helped me see new things about myself and also have some hope that I don't have to keep feeling this way that anyone can grow past self loathing, whatever the source. So today's episode is not a standard Proxy conversation. Instead, I talk to Aparna Nancherla, Introvert to Introvert to get practical tips and advice about a question I've been struggling with. In a culture made for extroverts, how do you accept yourself as an introvert? My conversation with Aparna when we return.

[N/A]

Hi, this is Kristen calling in from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. My too niche to podcast conundrum is that I think my D and D character is cooler than I am. But I'm glad Proxy is investigating other niche emotional conundrums. Which is why nine months ago I became a member of Proxy's Patreon. Because yoe makes this show independently and I don't want it to disappear. Our emotions deserve to be thoroughly investigated with care. But that costs money. When you join the Proxy page Patreon, you get benefits like hearing episodes without ads and exclusive bonus episodes. What a bargain. Plus you'll get a gold star for helping make the world's first emotional investigative journalism TM. To become a member go to patreon.com ProxyPodcast that's patreon.com ProxyPodcast I didn't think of a Sad effect. Okay, can I get a.

[Yowei Shah]

Dice roll?

[Kristen]

So this is a show where we investigate emotional conundrums, and in this episode, it's me. I'm the one with the problem.

[Yowei Shah]

Okay. Okay. I love that.

[Kristen]

And here's the deal. So I'm an introvert like you, and for a long time, I didn't have to think about it.

[N/A]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

Yes. I worked in podcasting, but I was usually behind the scenes as a producer. I only reported one or two stories a year on the mic.

[Yowei Shah]

Okay.

[Kristen]

And then I had this opportunity a few years ago to become a co host of Invisibilia.

[N/A]

Yes.

[Kristen]

And I was like, okay, let's go for it. And that was the moment when. When suddenly a bunch of people in my life, strangers, a neighbor, close people, acquaintances, were like, huh, you don't seem like someone who should be a host of a podcast. You're quiet. You don't really like to talk that much.

[Yowei Shah]

Right, right, right.

[Kristen]

You don't have a huge personality. And so anyways, I started to feel bad about myself and my personality. Like it was something I needed to fix if I wanted to be on the mic.

[Yowei Shah]

Sure.

[Kristen]

And so my first question is, when you started doing comedy, did you have that moment where people were like, huh?

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah. I mean, I would say all the time, people would be like, wait, you're a comedian? Like, just, you know. Yeah. I mean, now I think because I have a little bit of a, you know, foundation of experience or, like, work behind me, people accept it, or they'll even be like, oh, yeah, like, I could see that. Like, you. You kind of probably come at it sideways or you're a little bit, you know, sly about it. But yeah, when I was starting, I think people were just like, wait, how does that work? And, like, why would you even want to do that? You seem so reserved and like someone who likes to kind of hang in the background. So I think it. It definitely threw people off for a long time.

[Kristen]

And when you were starting out, when you would feel the side eye, the skepticism, how did that make you feel?

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah, I think it made me feel. I mean, I already struggle with self doubt, so I think it added another layer of like, oh, okay, so I have to be funny, but I also have to kind of prove that I can even exist in this field of people who at least present as a lot more outgoing or, like, ready to jump into the center of attention, like, happily and just thrive there. Whereas I. I kind of was like, okay, I'll dip into the Spotlight for my five to 10 minutes or whatever you're doing when you start out. And then I'll happily recede to the shadows, which always made me feel like, okay, is that really a performer personality? Like, I think I had my own insecurities around it even before other people pointed it out.

[Kristen]

Let's go back to the beginning. So I actually didn't realize that I was an introvert until later in life because I come from an extremely introverted family.

[Yowei Shah]

Oh, okay. Okay.

[Kristen]

To give you an idea, growing up, we would bring books to the table and eat our dinner in silence instead of talk about our day.

[Yowei Shah]

This is, like, my dream. This is incredible, because I was. I was at a cafe the other day, and I was eating by myself, and there were a group of three friends nearby, and they were all talking really loud and having, like, a great time. And, you know, I was annoyed in the way you are, where you're like, I just wanted to have kind of a nice meal by myself. And these people, it feels like they're kind of invading my personal space. But then they all suddenly, like, finished their chat and all took out a book, and then they were just quietly reading the rest of the time, and I was like, wow, they really balanced the two halves of, like, wow, they had their chat, and now they're like, and now we read our books.

[Kristen]

That is such a baller move.

[Yowei Shah]

I know. I was really kind of blown away.

[Kristen]

Well, so I'm curious. Did you have this moment when you realized you were an introvert?

[Yowei Shah]

I feel like my family is probably on the more introverted scale. Like, I wouldn't say we're all big extroverts, but I do think, like, South Asian culture in general is pretty outgoing and gregarious, and you're always around a lot of other people, and there's a lot of small talk constantly, and a lot of just hanging out that has no clear endpoint. So I think she was like, oh, you are not able to pass in these environments the way I think you should be able to. So I think very early on, I sort of got the sense from my mom of, like, you're too in your shell and you need to come out or you're not gonna do well in this reality.

[Kristen]

You write in your book that, like, your mom had this utilitarian optimism and that she, like, brainstormed all these ways to, like, essentially scrub out the introverted part of you.

[Yowei Shah]

And I don't think she wanted me to change my whole personality, but I think she just wanted me to have certain skills, being able to speak up comfortably around Other people and participate more.

[N/A]

Like on all of my report cards.

[Yowei Shah]

It would be like, great student, but.

[N/A]

Never participates in discussions or never raises her hand.

[Kristen]

Can you talk about some of the methods she tried?

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah, I mean, the one I kind of always tell people is like, she would make me practice ordering pizzas over the phone. We would always have like a Sunday family pizza night from Pizza Hut. We would get carry out. And she was like, you need to place the order. Like, this is you putting yourself out there in a grand way. And I. Yeah, even just like placing a, you know, a minute, two minute phone call pizza order would make me break out in hives.

[Kristen]

Oh, my God. You also talk about how your mom enrolled you in a Toastmasters Club.

[Yowei Shah]

She did. She enrolled me and my sibling. This was maybe we were a little older. I would say maybe middle school. School. And yeah, I think she was like, public speaking, you know, that's a valuable soft skill at any age.

[Kristen]

How old do you think you were?

[Yowei Shah]

I think we were 11 and 13.

[Aparna Nancherla]

Were you the only kids in class?

[Yowei Shah]

We were the only kids in this, like, very, you know, sterile and dystopian office center. And we would go every week and I remember dreading it. And it was just like giving three minute presentations in front of a bunch of, I think office workers who are probably there because their work made them be there. And they were like, why are these children here?

[Kristen]

Your mom is hardcore. I respect that. I respect that Immigrant hustle.

[N/A]

Oh, I know.

[Yowei Shah]

Truly. My mom is always like, anything you can't do, there is a class that will help change that. She's very learning oriented.

[Kristen]

What are some early examples of like, Aparna the introvert?

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah, I mean, speaking of, you were saying reading books at the dinner table. Like, I remember I would bring books to like, parties. Like, my parents would take us to parties with like, family friends. And I would be like, if I don't know that many people, then I'm just gonna read my book. Like, why is that wrong?

[Kristen]

I'm just thinking about, like, how I went to one of those festivals, like dance music, whatever festivals a little while ago, and I brought a pile of New Yorkers.

[Yowei Shah]

Oh, my God.

[Kristen]

And I was reading them one of the days. I was like, stretched out on like, the basketball court reading.

[Yowei Shah]

These New Yorkers have to. I'm like, those festivals are so overstimulating. You gotta have a little break.

[Kristen]

Okay, so you would bring books to parties?

[Yowei Shah]

Mm.

[Aparna Nancherla]

What else?

[Kristen]

How else were you an introvert?

[Yowei Shah]

I mean, I remember very young words would just not come to Me easily around other people. Like, I would just kind of like, freeze up. People would never be able to hear me. They would be like, speak up. And then that would make me more choked up of what to say. So I think it was also just insecurity around speaking up in general, where I was like, I feel like even when I do talk, I'm not doing it right. Like, it's not loud enough. People can't understand me.

[Kristen]

I'm nodding vigorously because I really relate to, like, you talk about this in the book, the stupid joke.

[Aparna Nancherla]

Oh.

[Kristen]

Like, keep it down over there. Like, that's happened to me so many times. People need to stop saying that. This is a psa.

[Yowei Shah]

I know.

[Kristen]

Well, going back to the Toastmasters Club, there's a way to hear that story and interpret it as painful.

[Yowei Shah]

Sure.

[Kristen]

Like, I was just thinking about, like, you know, parents who want you to lose weight or parents who want you to, like, dress differently.

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah. And I think it was through the lens of more self improvement. You know, like, there's always something you can work on. But early on I was like, I need to fix this and I need to fully flip this part of my personality or character. Yeah.

[Kristen]

So like 11 year old Aparna giving speeches to a class of office workers. How do you go from like, that to Aparna who's on stage in front of thousands of people, telling jokes, commanding attention, making people laugh.

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah. I mean, I think for me, the seed that Toastmasters planted was that there was something about speaking to other people in a very controlled way where it was sort of like, I know exactly how much time I have to fill. I have notes I can refer to. I know what the point A to point B is. Like, they need to learn about a hobby or whatever. Like, that felt so much more easy to navigate than like a conversation at a party where none of those things are defined quite as clearly. So I think that class did show me, like, oh, this is a way of connecting with other people that feels easier to parse and figure out than actual social dynamics, which felt a lot more murky.

[Kristen]

It's almost like your mom set you up to be a comedian.

[Yowei Shah]

I know.

[Kristen]

She probably didn't set out to, like, get you interested in comedy.

[Yowei Shah]

Right, Right.

[Kristen]

But it's kind of similar.

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

You were kind of giving a set every week.

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think pretty soon after I took that class, I entered like a youth speech contest, like, through our Hindu temple. And we had sort of a serious prompt. It was like, what is one pivotal issue affecting the Indian American community today. And I think I was the only one who went in a lighter direction where I did a whole roast of, like, Bollywood Mov and like, my parents would make me watch them at home, and I sort of had a bone to pick with them and was, like, a little resentful. I had to watch these movies I didn't even know if I liked that much. And I think because I did sort of a silly speech that was a roast, like, it kind of caught the audience off guard because everything else had been about, like, racism and representation and things that are more serious topics. And I think just seeing the way humor gains you favor with an audience, it sort of opens them up in a way that they might not otherwise. That, to me, felt like, oh, my gosh, this is a way to kind of get in to people's heads or for them to understand me better. That just feels like some kind of missing link that wasn't there before.

[Kristen]

Okay, so I've always wanted to talk to a successful comedian like you who's an introvert.

[Yowei Shah]

Oh, my goodness.

[Kristen]

But, like, it's really hard to find other comedians who are introverts.

[Yowei Shah]

And the funny thing to me is, like, there are actually so many comedians who are introverts, but so many of them hide it really well, or they're just. Their performance Persona is, like, so big and sometimes even will carry off stage where it's like, as long as they're around other people, they're going to be in that sort of performance mode.

[Kristen]

I think that would surprise a lot of people. And actually, in your book, you talk about this study that found that professional comedians test lower on extroversion than the average person.

[N/A]

Yes.

[Kristen]

I feel like if every comedian who was an introvert came out as an introvert, I think that would be very good PR for us and do a lot to undo this stereotype we have about introversion being a character flaw. Because, like, comedians are essentially paid. Like, you're essentially paid to have a good personality.

[Yowei Shah]

Yes.

[Kristen]

You know what I mean?

[Yowei Shah]

That's so true.

[Aparna Nancherla]

All right, Aparna, I need some tips on how to perform as an introvert.

[Kristen]

It seems like the heart of what you do or a comedian does is, like, getting up in front of people and commanding attention, which terrifies me as an introvert. But now that I'm a host, I have to do live events. I do panels. I'm emceeing a Lunar New Year party this weekend, and I don't know what.

[Aparna Nancherla]

The hell I'm doing.

[Kristen]

Like, you know, I'm still really figuring out how to be on stage and, like, take up space. So I'm wondering, like, are there any concrete things that you learned along this journey of figuring out how to be on stage? Be a heightened version of yourself, command attention?

[N/A]

Yeah.

[Yowei Shah]

I would say one thing you learn pretty quickly is if the audience feels like you're trying too hard to figure out what they want or you're catering too much to them, I feel like they can pick up on you not being as authentic or trying to morph too much into some weird version of what you think they want versus kind of talking to them more honestly. So I think it took me a little while to kind of figure out, like, how much of my actual self can I lean into more and just kind of hope they will join me where I'm at. I think I'm now more at a place of, like, okay, this is where I'm at, and you can meet me here, or otherwise, we'll just have to agree this wasn't the best fit.

[Kristen]

I mean, in a way, it sounds like the process of becoming a comedian and getting really good at it, that process was also a process of learning to accept yourself.

[Yowei Shah]

Totally. Totally. Yeah.

[Kristen]

The other part of being a podcast host that is hard for me is verbal ease and spontaneity.

[N/A]

Yes.

[Kristen]

So this comes up for me in interviews primarily. Even when I'm the one asking the questions, and I get to prepare and I get to read a book and really think about what I'm gonna do, there's still a lot of improvisation that's required in the interview. And then it's even worse when I'm on the other side of the microphone, someone's interviewing me, and I have no idea what they're gonna ask. I mean, essentially, what I'm subjecting you to right now. Because you have no control.

[Yowei Shah]

Yes, yes.

[Kristen]

And I'm curious, how have you figured out how to build up that muscle as a comedian?

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah. I mean, one thing that helped me early on with Stand up was, and I think it was another comedian had encouraged a lot of us to do was take an improv class where it is, like, just learn a little bit to. To get ahead of your kind of judging, criticizing brain and just be able to kind of live in the moment a little bit more and be comfortable doing that. And. But I would say when I'm able to be like, can I have the questions ahead of time? Like, that would just help me out, because I think in the past, I'd be like, that's cheating. A real comedian would be able to think on their feet. But I'm like, well, that's not how your brain works.

[Kristen]

What about crowd work?

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah, I don't do it. I mean, if I do do it, I'm just doing it to comment on how bad I am at it.

[Kristen]

Because I think it's.

[Yowei Shah]

It's just not my. Like, I see comedians who are so good at it, and I'm like, that's just not my speed. Because I think it kind of mixes everything that makes me nervous, which is, like, talking to people I don't know well and trying to just riff off of their answers. But then I'm like, in my head, I'm already worried about, like, am I offending this person? Did this person even want to be spoken to? Like, I just get very caught up in things that I think someone who's good at crowd work is probably not thinking about.

[Kristen]

There's a lesson there. And just being like, these are the things that I excel at, and these are the things that I don't wanna do.

[Yowei Shah]

I think a lot of comedians are like, that. Like, I need to write everything out. I know exactly my jokes down to, like, the punctuation. And then there are comedians who are like, yeah, I'm just gonna talk it out on stage. I'm just gonna maybe even figure out by talking to people in the crowd, there's just a full range. Like, I think it's like, music, where there's, like, certain genres of comedy. And I don't think all comedians are into crowd work by any means.

[Aparna Nancherla]

When we return, how to Stop wishing for Personality, Puberty to hit.

[Kristen]

There's this question you ask in the book that really hit for me. Can I send it to you to read?

[N/A]

Sure.

[Yowei Shah]

Okay.

[N/A]

Extroversion is seen as strength and power, while being quieter or less willing to.

[Yowei Shah]

Take up air in the room is.

[N/A]

Seen as weak and submissive. But if an entire personality trait is framed as something needing improvement, what does that do to the person inhabiting it? How do you exist in the world and in relation to others when you're so often fed the message that your instincts are wrong?

[Kristen]

So, Aparna, what do you think it's done to you?

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's fed into what feels like a bottomless well of self doubt. Because it's always like, you know, be yourself, or, like, follow your gut.

[Kristen]

And I'm like, oh, my God, that's the worst. I hate that advice. Be yourself.

[Yowei Shah]

But also, it's like, if you're constantly told that yourself is not the Right person. You're like, I don't even know what that means when you're telling me myself, because myself is clearly not what you want.

[Kristen]

Yeah. This is another psa. When I was just starting to be a podcast host at Invisibilia, I would be nervous.

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And people would be like, it's fine, just be yourself. And I'd be like, oh, don't say that to me.

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah. This comedian, John early, he did a joke on his last special where he was kind of talking about that advice and how people very specifically want, like, one type of response. Like, they want someone sort of, like, outgoing.

[N/A]

Like.

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah. I'm like, so comfortable with myself. And I'm like, that's just one small version of what a self is. But that seems to be what people want when they're like, be yourself. They don't want the full range of what humanity is.

[Kristen]

Oh, that's really interesting. I'd never thought about that. That's so true. I think for me, when I think about your question and, like, what it's done to me not to get too vulnerable, but, like, you know, I think it's been one of my main sources of self loathing. Not so much self doubt, like, of course doubts there, but, like, self loathing in particular.

[N/A]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

Everyone has a version of self loathing. I think mine centers around the introversion thing. And then a little while ago, I read that book by Susan Cain, Quiet.

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristen]

And it was the first time I was like, oh, these negative feelings that I have about myself. Like, I don't have to feel that way. Like, this is just a belief that we have, like, a culturally constructed belief that we have in the US about introversion being a character flaw. And it wasn't always like that.

[Yowei Shah]

Oh, yeah. I remember reading an interview with her where she even talks about, like, the shift culturally when introversion became, like, more seen as a problem and how there was a period in American history where the strong, silent type was the thing to be.

[Kristen]

That was the ideal personality type.

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kristen]

When we were like, you know, a more agrarian society, lived in a small town, never left, people knew who you were.

[N/A]

Yes.

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

And so your actions mattered more than, like, how you sold yourself.

[Yowei Shah]

Totally.

[Kristen]

And it still tickles me to think about this, but, like, the people who were extroverted in that age were seen as annoying.

[Yowei Shah]

Like, try hard.

[Kristen]

I think I'm quoting her. It might not be. Well, I'm wondering, did you have an aha moment like that about your personality?

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah, I'm trying to think. Cause I'm like, was it also. When I read that book, I think it's also maybe just part of it has been gradual in that I've also just noticed more. Sometimes with performers, I look up to where. When I've been on shows with them, like, I notice, like, in the green room or something. Like, around other people. They're not pushing themselves so hard to be, like, the center of attention. Or, like, really taking up all the space. Like, they're kind of just chill and relaxed. And I'm like, oh. And they're like, people I deeply respect. And they seem to be closer to a version of what my comfort zone is. So I think that's also given me more permission to be like, oh. There can be a whole range of, like, what a performer is. And, like, can be.

[Kristen]

I'm flashing back to this live show that I did. And I was, like, backstage in the green room with, like, the folks who are also gonna be on stage. And I really, really needed to be alone, not talk. But I just didn't have the confidence to be, like, stop talking to me.

[Yowei Shah]

Totally.

[Kristen]

And I also wanted to, like, impress them.

[Aparna Nancherla]

Cause I think they're cool.

[Kristen]

And I think that didn't help later. Cause I was, like, tired by the time I got on stage.

[Yowei Shah]

That's been a big thing with me with, like, stand up, where it's like, sometimes at shows, there's either no space that's just for the performers. Like, it'll literally just be the back of a bar or something. Or there's just like, one green room for everyone. Where it's like, you can't really find that space for yourself. And then usually I'll, like, go to the bathroom or I'll take a walk. Like, I've just learned that if I need a little time away from other people, like, I don't need to explain myself, or I don't need to feel embarrassed about that. Because for me, it can make a difference. Like, you're saying where. I even remember at a show, once I got to the green room and my friend was like, how was your day? And I was already so in my head about the performance. And I was just like, I cannot talk to you right now. I can't answer that. And I felt kind of rude, but I was like, it's okay. You're just, like, built the way you're built.

[Kristen]

This is really important for me to hear. I think it's just, like, this lesson around being okay with asking for what you need.

[Yowei Shah]

I think that feeds into what you were saying before where it's like, I think because everything goes by the extrovert playbook, you seem weird for not wanting to engage or have fun backstage chat. But that's not. Like, we're not all in the same headspace right now. Clearly some people, it's like that helps them kind of get in the mood. And I'm like, but that's not what works for me.

[Kristen]

Yeah, yeah. But then it's like, maybe once you accept yourself, you're like, yay, introversion.

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

Then there's the stereotype about Asian women being soft spoken and demure.

[Yowei Shah]

Right.

[Kristen]

And then it makes me feel bad to be an introvert again. And I've definitely been jealous of Asian women who are loud and brash and defying the stereotype. And I wish I was more like them. How do you make sense of that conundrum? Like, how have you made sense of it in your own life?

[Yowei Shah]

Well, if a group is not a monolith, then it's like, of course some people are going to fall closer to, like, what is a stereotype of a group versus people who are the polar opposite of that. So I think it's. It is hard when you're like, I am upholding the tenets of this stereotype. It's been really interesting to be like, how do I inhabit a trope but not flatten myself? And I mean, weirdly, I think in a way we do both of us subvert that trope because even though our personality might fit into what the stereotype says, like, our jobs kind of combat that idea.

[Kristen]

I guess this is the whole representation conversation.

[Yowei Shah]

Yes.

[Kristen]

Honestly, that was one of the reasons why I said yes to hosting Invisibilia, because I was like, representation for introverts. I don't see a lot of podcast hosts that sound like me. And I was like, oh, yeah, there's. There's all kinds out there. There's all kinds of people who can do all kinds of things.

[Yowei Shah]

And I also feel like with introverts, it's. It does feel like sometimes extroverts are writing the story of, like, what we are. Like, I don't think because someone's quiet.

[N/A]

It means they're submissive.

[Yowei Shah]

You know what I mean? Yeah. The two are not hand in hand.

[Kristen]

Absolutely.

[Yowei Shah]

You're just showing up differently. But you might be putting yourself out there in different ways or, I mean, for me, as a performer, I think I'm like, well, yeah, maybe I'm not the loudest one in this room, but if you see my work like I stand behind my work. So, yeah.

[Aparna Nancherla]

Okay.

[Kristen]

I want to end with this part of your book that made me tear up. I sent you the graph, and I would like you to read it.

[Yowei Shah]

Okay.

[N/A]

I firmly believe a shy person's tale can be told in more compelling ways and not just as a battle to overcome. Culturally, we are obsessed with the brazen extrovert. Even in racialized terms, loud, difficult women are always seen as more artistically interesting heroines, since they're groundbreakers in many ways and playing against the trope of appeasing foils and archetypes. But there's more than one way to fight expectations. And as someone who inhabits a trope, as an actual person, I can tell you reticent minorities also have stories to tell. And if those stories don't sound riveting.

[Yowei Shah]

At first, maybe that's only because no.

[N/A]

One has bothered to listen to them, really listen, without presuming they know how they go. They don't.

[Kristen]

I feel like you're making a really profound point here.

[N/A]

Yeah.

[Kristen]

That a lot of us have been fed this message that the only people who deserve to be in front of microphones or tell stories are a certain kind of personality type.

[Yowei Shah]

Right.

[Kristen]

But, yeah. I don't know.

[Aparna Nancherla]

It feels like you're standing up for me and other introverts. And I just wanted to say thank you.

[Yowei Shah]

Oh, my goodness. Of course. I feel, honestly, at this point in my life, so proud to be part of, like, a group that's constantly existing in opposition to a world that's demanding constant performance. And I myself look up to introverts who don't try to contort themselves at all, because I still struggle with sometimes trying to be a version of myself that isn't fully me. And I just think it's so cool that there's so many of us that I think the world maybe doesn't fully get. But we're just doing our thing.

[Aparna Nancherla]

We're out here.

[Yowei Shah]

We're out here.

[Aparna Nancherla]

Thank you to Aparna Nancherla for taking the time to talk to me. Her book of essays is called called Unreliable Narrator. And if you're lucky enough to live in Fort Worth, Texas, or Asheville, North Carolina, you can catch her live on May 22, May 23, and June 14. We'll have that info in our show notes. We'll be back with a new episode on Tuesday, June 3rd. New episodes every other Tuesday for the rest of the year. Proxy is an independent podcast, and we rely on listener support. We need at least 3,000 subscribers by the End of the year to keep making the show. And as of this recording we are at 335. Can we get some air horns? Thank you, thank you to everyone who signed up and to everyone who hasn't canceled their membership, like Proxy newsletter editor and my best friend Julianna.

[Kristen]

Okay, it crossed my mind.

[N/A]

I was like, should I just like cancel my membership because now I'm working for Proxy? But like crossed it very quickly and I was like, nah.

[Kristen]

You know who's not a Patreon member?

[N/A]

Uh oh, who's that?

[Kristen]

Kyle. Oh yeah, Kyle the mixing engineer is not a Patreon member.

[N/A]

See, if you were going to say like Kim or Tim, I'd be like, okay, it's fine. But like, if it's Kyle, then I don't know, Kyle should be a member.

[Kristen]

That's fucking bullshit. That was my impression of Kyle.

[N/A]

But okay, he does do a lot.

[Kristen]

Are you saying you don't do enough?

[Aparna Nancherla]

So be like Julianna, not Kyle. For just $5 a month, you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus interviews. And if you sign up for an annual membership, you'll get a discount and you will save us credit card fees. Sign [e-mail] proxy podcast. That's patreon.com proxypodcast and if you want to support us but can't swing $5 in this economy, you can still help us by rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. As always, you can follow us on Instagram, ProxyPodcast and I'm awayshaw. We also have a free newsletter. Sign up to get dispatches from the Emotions beat. We'll have those links in our show. Notes. This episode was edited by Tim Howard and John Delore, produced by me and mixed by Kyle Pulley. Praxi is also produced by Kim Nader Bin Pietersa with help from Anna Karan Santana, Laura Yan and Nick Leblanc. Our newsletter editor is Juliana Feliciana Reyes. Music in this episode by Tim Howard and theme music by Breakmaster Cylinder. Special thanks to Abby Wendle, Kristin Vermilia, Panav Bhaskar and Mathilde Urfelino. Roxy is a proud member of Radiotopia from prx, a network of independent creator owned listener supported podcasts. Discover audio with vision at Radiotopia fm. Radiotopia's executive producer is Audrey Martovich and Yuri Lozordo is director of network operations. And remember, if you have a niche emotional conundrum you'd like investigated by Proxy, get in [e-mail] we're taking cases. Kyle did you like how many PSAs there were in the episode?

[Shankar Vedantam]

Yeah. I feel like a lot of the PSAs are directed towards me. I'm the guy who says, hey, pipe down over there.

[Kristen]

You say that all the time in front of your family. It's so annoying. You have to stop.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Yes, I'm sorry.

[N/A]

Radiotopia.

[Yowei Shah]

From PRX.