Proxy with Yowei Shaw

Episode: "Bob and the Forgiveness Spell"

Date: November 4, 2025

Main Theme & Purpose

In this episode of Proxy, host Yowei Shaw helps Erin, a professional advocate and survivor of childhood abuse, unravel her enduring struggle: how to forgive her mother out of self-compassion, not obligation. With the assistance of Dr. Robert (Bob) Enright—a pioneering forgiveness researcher—Yowei facilitates an emotionally raw, nuanced exploration of what forgiveness really is, how it differs from reconciliation, and why letting go of anger can be so difficult when justice feels elusive.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Erin’s Conundrum: The Weight of Anger

• Erin, an accomplished advocate, describes her childhood marked by chaos and violence from her mother [10:28-11:33].
• Despite years of therapy and a successful adult life, she remains “angry in her body” and feels her anger is always “this far from the top” [12:49].
• Erin cut off contact with her mother, not out of malice, but self-preservation. Yet, she wants to forgive to free herself from anger, not for her mother’s sake [11:33].
• Erin’s struggle: “I can hold a grudge like a motherfucker, but now I have all this anger in my body.” [09:17]

2. Defining Forgiveness—And What It Is Not

• Webster’s: “To forgive is to cease to feel resentment against an offender.” But how do you actually do that? [11:33]
• Erin has reflexively said, “I forgive you,” but admits, “I don’t even know what forgiveness means” [11:18].
• Yowei highlights that for many, forgiveness feels like “a science fiction” idea—others talk about it, but making it real is another matter [15:43, 16:03].
• Erin’s central wish: “I don’t want to be mad anymore. I sort of think of, like, the anger as, like, a cup… my cup is always, like, this far from the top.” [12:49]

3. Enter Bob Enright: The Science and Process of Forgiveness

• Who is Bob? -- Dr. Robert "Bob" Enright, psychologist and author, considered a pioneer in forgiveness studies [19:16-21:00].
  • “I woke up one day and asked myself this question, who am I helping with this work? And my answer was, nobody.” [20:03]
  • Bob shifted from moral development to “person-to-person forgiving”—finding it had rarely been scientifically studied [20:03-21:00].
  • He developed a stepwise forgiveness program, validated by multiple peer-reviewed studies, including for survivors of extreme harm [21:20].

The Forgiveness Program’s Phases:

• Phase 1: Uncovering
  • Bringing the pain into awareness, confronting feelings that are often suppressed.
  • “You have brought into the present because of the injustices you have suffered.” [28:34]
• Phase 2: Decision
  • Clarify misconceptions about forgiveness—is it for the other or oneself? Must it include reconciliation?
  • “People assume it means automatic reconciliation and repudiating justice... No, no, no.” [24:47]
• Phase 3: Work/Action (“Forgiveness Gym”)
  • Replace negative thoughts with positive or neutral ones (“doing the reps”).
  • Compassion towards the offender can grow, but doesn't erase the injustice [29:37, 30:02].

Key Distinction:

• Forgiveness does not equal reconciliation or erasing injustice. “You do not throw justice under the bus… Reconciliation… is when two or more people come together again in mutual trust. If you can't necessarily trust your mom, then you wouldn't necessarily reconcile. But that does not invalidate forgiving.” — Bob [24:47-25:12, 26:00]

4. Emotional Work and Resistance

• Erin voices resistance, even as she understands and sometimes feels compassion toward her mother:
  • “I really believe that she was doing the best she could... But there are also lots of people who... didn't beat their kids... I can really talk myself out of forgiveness.” [30:12]
  • Bob reassures: “You actually have started on the road to forgiveness, whether you know it or not, because you see your mother as more than the injustices inflicted upon you.” [31:29]
• Forgiveness, for Bob, is a choice and act of mercy—offering “goodness when the other did not.” [28:08]

5. What Is Forgiveness Supposed to Feel Like?

• Erin likens the emotional labor to “walking in a bog that is just made of honey… hard to make any headway.” [38:32]
• Bob offers a metaphor: “Think of resentment as a dripping of water on a stone… the stone, your heart, is going to degenerate. When you begin to do a little bit of the work of forgiveness, that drip starts to slow down…” [39:25]
  • “You have been doing the work of forgiveness, you're becoming forgivingly fit, Erin.” [40:00]
• Contradictory feelings are normal; you may still have anger, but it loses its damaging, central place [37:17].

6. Meaning from Suffering

• Erin laments lost time to therapy, recovery, and suffering.
  • “Can you imagine what I would have done with my life had I not been suffering?” [41:09]
• Bob reframes: “You used the suffering for good, to find meaning in life. The suffering has made you a gift to other people, because you are sensitive to their needs and you respond to it.” [43:35]
• Erin pushes back: “I was a gift to others, like, before this happened to me, you know, like, I didn't have to go... through this hard thing because I was a gift.” [44:15]

7. Outcome and Aftereffects

• Erin struggles with the idea of forced readiness; forgiveness is not a single moment. “It feels to me that I haven’t, like, made the decision to... forgive my mother. Does that make sense?” [45:15]
• Bob: “You are much farther down the road than you realize.” [45:32]
• After the session, Erin noticed a shift: she was able to cry openly (tears of joy at a board meeting), but without her usual physical aftershocks. “I woke up the next day and I looked fresh... I didn’t feel like death... But I think it was exactly what needed to happen. To know that I’m in the process.” [46:46-47:57]
• Erin expresses hope: “I can see... the way through.” [47:57]

Notable Quotes & Moments by Timestamp

• On Defining Forgiveness

  • Erin: “I don’t even know what forgiveness means.” [11:18]
  • Yowei: “Does enough time have to pass? Like with a breakup, can you learn how to forgive?” [11:33]

• On Family Pressure

  • Erin: “People in my family do encourage me to be in contact with her, which to me is just kind of a non-negotiable right now.” [24:21]

• Bob on Choice:

  • “I have a book entitled Forgiveness is a Choice... to make sure everyone realizes that, that it's their own free will.” [23:32]

• Distinction Between Forgiveness and Reconciliation

  • Bob: “…forgiveness does not erase the injustice that you have faced. You do not throw justice under the bus. And you may or may not reconcile.” [25:00]

• On Progress

  • Bob: “You have actually left the starting gate, and you are actually jogging or walking or even running that path in a way that is impressively advanced.” [37:37]

• On Emotional Labor

  • Erin: “It feels like I’m walking in a bog that is just made of honey, and... my legs are really heavy…” [38:32]

• Bob’s Drip Metaphor

  • “Think of resentment as a dripping of water on a stone… the stone, your heart, is going to degenerate... when you do the work, the resentment goes down, the compassion goes up…” [39:25-41:00]

• On Making Meaning from Pain

  • Bob: “The suffering has made you a gift to other people because you are sensitive to their needs to their suffering and you respond to it.” [43:35]

• On Nuanced Progress

  • Erin: “To know that, like, I’m in the process. To know that I’m actually in the honeybog and that there are key indicators that some of the work is already being done and some of it is behind me and some of it is ahead of me. But I can see there are signs pointing to, like, the way through.” [47:57]

Timeline / Timestamps of Notable Segments

• [09:17] – Erin introduces her forgiveness struggle (“I can hold a grudge like a motherfucker…”)
• [11:18-12:49] – Erin recounts her reflexive forgiveness response and explains her anger
• [19:16-22:00] – Introduction of Bob Enright and the lack of previous forgiveness research
• [23:32-28:08] – Bob explains his forgiveness program and clarifies misconceptions
• [30:12-31:29] – Erin and Bob discuss the first signs of compassion and real progress
• [35:51-37:27] – Bob’s example from incest survivor study; real-world impact of the program
• [38:32-41:04] – Erin voices what forgiveness “feels” like; Bob’s “drip” metaphor and acknowledgment of Erin’s progress
• [43:35-44:15] – Meaning from suffering, with Erin’s pushback
• [46:46-47:57] – Erin’s post-proxy shift: newfound emotional relief and hope

Memorable Moments & Takeaways

• Erin’s emotional realization that her attempts to not become like her mother are tangled up with her anger (“I just don’t want to be that bitch... I don’t want to be my mother.”) [14:04]
• Bob’s “forgiveness gym” analogy for the work of forgiveness—its slow, repetitive, active process, not a magical, instantaneous change [29:37, 40:00]
• Erin’s metaphor of the “honeybog,” capturing the weighty, sticky, and slow nature of progress [38:32]
• The surprise and hope Erin feels after the conversation: crying for joy without the usual adverse physical reaction—“I woke up the next day and I looked fresh.” [47:37]

Conclusion

"Bob and the Forgiveness Spell" offers a deeply nuanced, practical, and empathetic look at the elusive act of forgiveness, especially when justice is out of reach. Erin’s vulnerability, combined with Bob Enright’s evidence-based yet compassionate guidance, debunks myths about forgiveness and validates the messy, ambiguous emotional labor it takes. The episode closes not with resolution, but with sincere, hard-earned hope: that forgiveness is a slow, non-linear, but ultimately self-liberating journey—one that doesn’t excuse injustice or call for reconciliation, but which may, over time, make anger less central and life a bit lighter.

For more resources on forgiveness, visit the International Forgiveness Institute or check links in the episode’s show notes.