Bob and the Forgiveness Spell

Summary

---

Proxy with Yowei Shaw

Episode: "Bob and the Forgiveness Spell"

Date: November 4, 2025

---

Main Theme & Purpose

In this episode of Proxy, host Yowei Shaw helps Erin, a professional advocate and survivor of childhood abuse, unravel her enduring struggle: how to forgive her mother out of self-compassion, not obligation. With the assistance of Dr. Robert (Bob) Enright—a pioneering forgiveness researcher—Yowei facilitates an emotionally raw, nuanced exploration of what forgiveness really is, how it differs from reconciliation, and why letting go of anger can be so difficult when justice feels elusive.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Erin’s Conundrum: The Weight of Anger

• Erin, an accomplished advocate, describes her childhood marked by chaos and violence from her mother [10:28-11:33].
• Despite years of therapy and a successful adult life, she remains “angry in her body” and feels her anger is always “this far from the top” [12:49].
• Erin cut off contact with her mother, not out of malice, but self-preservation. Yet, she wants to forgive to free herself from anger, not for her mother’s sake [11:33].
• Erin’s struggle: “I can hold a grudge like a motherfucker, but now I have all this anger in my body.” [09:17]

2. Defining Forgiveness—And What It Is Not

• Webster’s: “To forgive is to cease to feel resentment against an offender.” But how do you actually do that? [11:33]
• Erin has reflexively said, “I forgive you,” but admits, “I don’t even know what forgiveness means” [11:18].
• Yowei highlights that for many, forgiveness feels like “a science fiction” idea—others talk about it, but making it real is another matter [15:43, 16:03].
• Erin’s central wish: “I don’t want to be mad anymore. I sort of think of, like, the anger as, like, a cup… my cup is always, like, this far from the top.” [12:49]

3. Enter Bob Enright: The Science and Process of Forgiveness

• Who is Bob? -- Dr. Robert "Bob" Enright, psychologist and author, considered a pioneer in forgiveness studies [19:16-21:00].
  • “I woke up one day and asked myself this question, who am I helping with this work? And my answer was, nobody.” [20:03]
  • Bob shifted from moral development to “person-to-person forgiving”—finding it had rarely been scientifically studied [20:03-21:00].
  • He developed a stepwise forgiveness program, validated by multiple peer-reviewed studies, including for survivors of extreme harm [21:20].

The Forgiveness Program’s Phases:

• Phase 1: Uncovering
  • Bringing the pain into awareness, confronting feelings that are often suppressed.
  • “You have brought into the present because of the injustices you have suffered.” [28:34]
• Phase 2: Decision
  • Clarify misconceptions about forgiveness—is it for the other or oneself? Must it include reconciliation?
  • “People assume it means automatic reconciliation and repudiating justice... No, no, no.” [24:47]
• Phase 3: Work/Action (“Forgiveness Gym”)
  • Replace negative thoughts with positive or neutral ones (“doing the reps”).
  • Compassion towards the offender can grow, but doesn't erase the injustice [29:37, 30:02].

Key Distinction:

• Forgiveness does not equal reconciliation or erasing injustice. “You do not throw justice under the bus… Reconciliation… is when two or more people come together again in mutual trust. If you can't necessarily trust your mom, then you wouldn't necessarily reconcile. But that does not invalidate forgiving.” — Bob [24:47-25:12, 26:00]

4. Emotional Work and Resistance

• Erin voices resistance, even as she understands and sometimes feels compassion toward her mother:
  • “I really believe that she was doing the best she could... But there are also lots of people who... didn't beat their kids... I can really talk myself out of forgiveness.” [30:12]
  • Bob reassures: “You actually have started on the road to forgiveness, whether you know it or not, because you see your mother as more than the injustices inflicted upon you.” [31:29]
• Forgiveness, for Bob, is a choice and act of mercy—offering “goodness when the other did not.” [28:08]

5. What Is Forgiveness Supposed to Feel Like?

• Erin likens the emotional labor to “walking in a bog that is just made of honey… hard to make any headway.” [38:32]
• Bob offers a metaphor: “Think of resentment as a dripping of water on a stone… the stone, your heart, is going to degenerate. When you begin to do a little bit of the work of forgiveness, that drip starts to slow down…” [39:25]
  • “You have been doing the work of forgiveness, you're becoming forgivingly fit, Erin.” [40:00]
• Contradictory feelings are normal; you may still have anger, but it loses its damaging, central place [37:17].

6. Meaning from Suffering

• Erin laments lost time to therapy, recovery, and suffering.
  • “Can you imagine what I would have done with my life had I not been suffering?” [41:09]
• Bob reframes: “You used the suffering for good, to find meaning in life. The suffering has made you a gift to other people, because you are sensitive to their needs and you respond to it.” [43:35]
• Erin pushes back: “I was a gift to others, like, before this happened to me, you know, like, I didn't have to go... through this hard thing because I was a gift.” [44:15]

7. Outcome and Aftereffects

• Erin struggles with the idea of forced readiness; forgiveness is not a single moment. “It feels to me that I haven’t, like, made the decision to... forgive my mother. Does that make sense?” [45:15]
• Bob: “You are much farther down the road than you realize.” [45:32]
• After the session, Erin noticed a shift: she was able to cry openly (tears of joy at a board meeting), but without her usual physical aftershocks. “I woke up the next day and I looked fresh... I didn’t feel like death... But I think it was exactly what needed to happen. To know that I’m in the process.” [46:46-47:57]
• Erin expresses hope: “I can see... the way through.” [47:57]

---

Notable Quotes & Moments by Timestamp

• On Defining Forgiveness

  • Erin: “I don’t even know what forgiveness means.” [11:18]
  • Yowei: “Does enough time have to pass? Like with a breakup, can you learn how to forgive?” [11:33]

• On Family Pressure

  • Erin: “People in my family do encourage me to be in contact with her, which to me is just kind of a non-negotiable right now.” [24:21]

• Bob on Choice:

  • “I have a book entitled Forgiveness is a Choice... to make sure everyone realizes that, that it's their own free will.” [23:32]

• Distinction Between Forgiveness and Reconciliation

  • Bob: “…forgiveness does not erase the injustice that you have faced. You do not throw justice under the bus. And you may or may not reconcile.” [25:00]

• On Progress

  • Bob: “You have actually left the starting gate, and you are actually jogging or walking or even running that path in a way that is impressively advanced.” [37:37]

• On Emotional Labor

  • Erin: “It feels like I’m walking in a bog that is just made of honey, and... my legs are really heavy…” [38:32]

• Bob’s Drip Metaphor

  • “Think of resentment as a dripping of water on a stone… the stone, your heart, is going to degenerate... when you do the work, the resentment goes down, the compassion goes up…” [39:25-41:00]

• On Making Meaning from Pain

  • Bob: “The suffering has made you a gift to other people because you are sensitive to their needs to their suffering and you respond to it.” [43:35]

• On Nuanced Progress

  • Erin: “To know that, like, I’m in the process. To know that I’m actually in the honeybog and that there are key indicators that some of the work is already being done and some of it is behind me and some of it is ahead of me. But I can see there are signs pointing to, like, the way through.” [47:57]

---

Timeline / Timestamps of Notable Segments

• [09:17] – Erin introduces her forgiveness struggle (“I can hold a grudge like a motherfucker…”)
• [11:18-12:49] – Erin recounts her reflexive forgiveness response and explains her anger
• [19:16-22:00] – Introduction of Bob Enright and the lack of previous forgiveness research
• [23:32-28:08] – Bob explains his forgiveness program and clarifies misconceptions
• [30:12-31:29] – Erin and Bob discuss the first signs of compassion and real progress
• [35:51-37:27] – Bob’s example from incest survivor study; real-world impact of the program
• [38:32-41:04] – Erin voices what forgiveness “feels” like; Bob’s “drip” metaphor and acknowledgment of Erin’s progress
• [43:35-44:15] – Meaning from suffering, with Erin’s pushback
• [46:46-47:57] – Erin’s post-proxy shift: newfound emotional relief and hope

---

Memorable Moments & Takeaways

• Erin’s emotional realization that her attempts to not become like her mother are tangled up with her anger (“I just don’t want to be that bitch... I don’t want to be my mother.”) [14:04]
• Bob’s “forgiveness gym” analogy for the work of forgiveness—its slow, repetitive, active process, not a magical, instantaneous change [29:37, 40:00]
• Erin’s metaphor of the “honeybog,” capturing the weighty, sticky, and slow nature of progress [38:32]
• The surprise and hope Erin feels after the conversation: crying for joy without the usual adverse physical reaction—“I woke up the next day and I looked fresh.” [47:37]

---

Conclusion

"Bob and the Forgiveness Spell" offers a deeply nuanced, practical, and empathetic look at the elusive act of forgiveness, especially when justice is out of reach. Erin’s vulnerability, combined with Bob Enright’s evidence-based yet compassionate guidance, debunks myths about forgiveness and validates the messy, ambiguous emotional labor it takes. The episode closes not with resolution, but with sincere, hard-earned hope: that forgiveness is a slow, non-linear, but ultimately self-liberating journey—one that doesn’t excuse injustice or call for reconciliation, but which may, over time, make anger less central and life a bit lighter.

---

For more resources on forgiveness, visit the International Forgiveness Institute or check links in the episode’s show notes.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, it's yoe with two quick updates. First, thank you to everybody who's signed up for the Patreon and cheered us along in our membership campaign. I have some unfortunate news to share. We did it.

[B]

Suck.

[A]

I hope that wasn't too mean. We. We did it. You did it. We made it to enough paying Patreon members to officially make a year 2 of proxy. More details to come. For now, we are celebrating at Proxy H and toasting all of you wonderful people who are making sure emotional investigative journalism lives to see another year. Which brings me to the second thing. I know this isn't ideal timing. Some would say it's the worst timing in the world. But our Radiotopia fall fundraiser has just launched, and we're trying to reach 1500 donors before the end of the year. Look, I was hoping to have at least a month in between the Proxy membership drive and the Radiotopia fundraiser, but Proxy had to extend our campaign. And here we are. Here's the deal, guys. Radiotopia is a podcast network that helps Proxy with marketing, finding sponsors, dealing with the actual podcast technology, all the things I'm bad at, and they let us keep our ip, which is really unusual in the podcast world. What that means in practice is that Radiotopia just took a chance on a new show like Proxy because they champion independent creators and want to help us. When you donate to Radiotopia, the money is split among all the shows in the network. It means that newer shows like Proxy can continue to grow, while more established shows like Normal Gossip and Song Exploder can also keep doing their thing. When you donate, you're essentially saying, I support independent media. I believe that weirdo shows like this should exist. If you can swing it, please head to Radiotopia fm. Donate to make your gift today. Thank you so much for listening and supporting our work and bearing with all this asking for money. This episode is brought to you in part by Mood. So, weed gummies. They're a dime a dozen these days. You can find them pretty much anywhere. But did you know there are gummies that don't just get you high? They can help with work, sex, even creativity. I'm talking about Mood.com's incredible line of functional gummies. And you can get 20% off your first order at Mood.com with promo code proxy. Mood Gummies combine premium federally legal THC with botanicals to target your specific concerns, whether that's PMS support. Gummies to ease cramps, sexual euphoria, gummies to help with intimacy, or morning gummies. That give you energy to help get those chores done. Everything ships discreetly to your door. So no dispensary lines, no awkward conversations, no rushing to the ATM because the shop only takes cash. Best of all, not only is every Mood product backed by a 100 day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners get 20% off their first order with code proxy. So head to mood.com, find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for, and let Mood help you discover your perfect mood. And don't forget to use promo code proxy when you check out to save 20% on your first order.

[B]

This show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform. In a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo-o o dot com. That's o d o o dot com.

[C]

Hello?

[A]

Hey, babe, where are you with the mix of the episode?

[C]

Hello to you too.

[A]

Listen, we got an episode to publish. It's late. I want to know what the status is.

[C]

All right, I'm like, halfway through it. Ah, yeah, I mean, I'd be going faster if you're. My technique was a little better.

[A]

Okay, I will make this quick. Kyle, tell the people what the final tally was for the campaign.

[C]

Well, as of midnight October 31st, it was 946, which is awesome.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

And also not 1,000 to paying Patreon.

[E]

Members, which was our goal.

[C]

Not 1,000.

[A]

But we crunched the numbers. Well, you crunched the numbers because I'm bad at math. And with the help of grants and those 946 paying Patreon members, we will be able to make another year of proxy.

[C]

Hell yeah.

[A]

I'm not gonna be able to hire part time help. It'll just be me producing. But that's okay because we are gonna get to another year.

[C]

I was just amazed at all the support we got.

[A]

Seriously, thank you everybody for signing up and listening and sending good vibes and. And it's been a long campaign.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

I apologize for that. We had to extend it, but we did it. How are you feeling?

[C]

Sorry, I'm just tired. I feel great. I'm happy.

[A]

I'm tired as well, but I also feel grateful. I'm really excited to make another year of emotional investigative journalism. And to try to crack some more cases. I'm also seeing this as one year of Runway to get to sustainability.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it basically means we have one more year to grow our audience, to get to the point where we're selling enough ads and we have enough Patreon members to support the show without the help of grants. Because who knows if we'll get another grant?

[C]

Right?

[A]

So that's. That's, like, the task for the next year.

[C]

And then we knocked Joe Rogan off his throne.

[A]

Yeah, that's the second year's test.

[C]

So I think it's really great. We're being very positive. But, I mean, we did miss the goal. What does that mean for the generous listeners? Generous pledge of 25k.

[A]

I'm not gonna lie. I was bummed on Halloween when I saw that we didn't get to a thousand. But I emailed our generous listener to see if there was any wiggle room, and they very generously said they will just give us the additional 25k whenever we reach 1000 paying Patreon members.

[C]

Awesome. So awesome.

[A]

This is a lot of money on the line, so thank God and thank you to our generous listener and to all of our generous listeners who signed up to help us get this match.

[C]

So now that you are on the other side of this pledge drive, how do you feel about asking for money?

[A]

Well, I started this journey hating having to ask for money. If I remember correctly, the sound of my niche emotional conundrum when I did that asking for money episode with Alex Goldman was something like.

[C]

Yeah, like a pathetic line.

[A]

But I think I'm.

[E]

Now.

[A]

Now it's more like, eh, uh huh, eh.

[C]

Unencumbered.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I can do this.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It doesn't fill me with shame and embarrassment like it did before. In fact, I kind of feel nothing when I ask for money now because I've done it so many times. I've become desensitized, which is helpful.

[C]

Neutral is better than negative.

[A]

Yes, for sure. Have you learned anything?

[C]

Yeah. Listening to the episode with the fundraising expert, it was really a reframe for me. Like, the idea of inviting people into a project just really spoke to me, and it inspired me to do a GoFundMe for a community PA system. I wouldn't have done that without doing this.

[A]

You just sent one email and you exceeded your goal.

[C]

Yeah, I did.

[A]

Okay, I think that is enough reflecting. You should get back to mixing. No more talking to me. Go, go, mix. Okay, thank you. Bye.

[C]

All right, bye.

[A]

Well, hello, Erin. What an honor to be on Mic with you.

[E]

I don't think I have as much experience being asked questions as I do asking questions.

[A]

This is Aaron. We know each other from the podcast world. Last year, I put out a call for Conundrums, and Aaron sent me this text quote, I need you to help me learn to forgive people who have hurt me. I can hold a grudge like a motherfucker, but now I have all this anger in my body, and you're quite literally the only person I would trust to report on learning how to forgive. End quote. When I read this, I thought, that's really cool, even amazing. She would trust me with this. But also, dear God, I have seriously oversold myself and my capabilities. But I reached out to Erin, told her, hey, listen, I can't promise you I can take on something this challenging. Erin was like, that's a chance I'm willing to take. And she told me about this person she's holding a grudge against, like a motherfucker. The person she wants to forgive. Her mother.

[E]

Okay, so heads up. Like, some of this is dark, and so a warning.

[A]

We're going to be talking about child abuse in this episode, which is why we'll be using just Aaron's first name and not including some details to protect her privacy.

[E]

So I grew up in, like, a really, really, like, chaotic household. My parents split up when I was about 4, and my mother definitely terrorized us. So my. My brother and I. She was, like, really unhinged growing up. Sometimes the cops would be at the house, a lot of violence, always yelling and screaming. My brother and I always walking on eggshells. Then I just sort of, like, maintained this relationship with my mother that, like, I didn't really want to be in. And then one day she came to visit, and she ended up saying, like, I know I took out, like, a lot of, like, my shit on you. I'm sorry. And I was like, yeah, yeah, Like, I forgive you. But I don't even know what, like, forgiveness means.

[A]

What does forgiveness mean? According to Webster's Dictionary, to forgive is to cease to feel resentment against an offender. But how do you just cease to feel resentment? Does enough time have to pass? Like, with a breakup, can you learn how to forgive? Like learning the steps to a dance routine. For Erin, she knows she didn't forgive her mom that day. Saying those words was just a reflex. And actually, Erin isn't talking to her mom right now. Erin cut off contact a few years ago and wants to keep it that way for now, but she still wants to figure out how to forgive her mom, not because she owes it to her. Actually, she doesn't want to do it for her mom at all. She hasn't earned it. Erin wants to do it for herself. Because in all these years of therapy, working through her depression, anxiety, being in recovery, building a beautiful life with a home, career, and friends she loves, there's just one thing that Erin hasn't been able to address. The anger.

[E]

If I sit around thinking about it, like, I can make myself so mad, and I just, like, I don't want to be mad anymore. I don't want to be mad. I sort of think of, like, the anger as, like, a cup, right? And it's like, my cup is always, like, this far from the top.

[A]

Do you snap at people? I've never heard you snap at anyone.

[E]

If something were to really make me mad, I worry that, like, my cuppeth would run over and, oh, God, I'm gonna have to call the closest. The people closest to me because, like, I don't know what I'm gonna do.

[A]

I'm laughing because Aaron is one of the most competent professional people I know. The only Aaron I've experienced is a joy to be around. But Aaron does have examples of less joyful moments. She told me about this one time a colleague asked if she'd finished a task that Erin had completely under control. But the colleague kept asking and asking, making Erin feel micromanaged and misunderstood.

[E]

I ended up saying something like, would it make you feel better if I called her right now during this call? And she was like, this isn't about my feelings. And I was like, it is about your feelings, because look at how you're treating me. And this. Like, was it a call with, like, all of my colleagues? I just, like, don't want to be that bitch. Like, I want to be the person with opinions, but I don't want to be the person. I don't want to be my mother.

[A]

Oh, is that something that your mom would do?

[E]

Oh, oh, my God. I'm just having a fucking whole realization. It's that my mom is very angry, and I don't want to be angry.

[A]

Aaron says the anger can throw her into a spiral. At night, she'll lay in bed and ruminate for hours about what she's mad about, and then she'll get mad at herself for being so mad.

[E]

The conversation is, you fucking idiot. Why are you awake? Why are you awake? Are you awake because you're mad?

[A]

And then because she's not sleeping, it can just take some off comment or miscommunication for Aaron to snap, which leads to the crying, something she tries to avoid at all costs.

[E]

It feels like the front of my face and like the upper part of my mouth is being peeled off. It starts burning, okay, and then the tears actually agitate my like sinuses and then they swell. Then I like can't breathe.

[A]

Aaron says she once cried for so many days she detached her retina and had to have surgery.

[E]

My body does not like to cry.

[A]

So of course, if forgiving her mom could help break Erin out of this exhausting cycle, that's what she wants. But it feels like science fiction to her, something she's read a lot about and heard stories about, but has no idea what it feels like or how one gets there.

[E]

I heard an interview with Maya Angelou talking about how she forgave her rapist and I was like, how, how, how how?

[A]

After the break, I find Aaron a proxy to talk to someone who claims to have built the most effective forgiveness program in the world.

[B]

Everybody's heard of Macy's famous Thanksgiving Day Parade, but what about Macy's Parade of Deals? Now, through the Thanksgiving Day Parade, Macy's will feature a brand new super exclusive must have deal per day and for one day only. If you love to find ways to imbue a little thrill in your days, then download the Macy's app asap. You can score steals on items like the Dyson Big Ball Turbine Head Canister Vacuum for the person who wants everyday essentials to feel like a luxury experience or an UGG fluff throw for watching movies with your loved ones. This holiday season, Macy's Parade of Deals will have everything you need for holiday hosting, gifting, travel, plus plenty of deals to treat yourself to. Don't mindlessly scroll your phone this month when you can parade through your holiday to do list with Macy's.

[A]

You love true crime, but what if the crimes were petty? Welcome to Petty Crimes, the only true crime comedy podcast that exclusively investigates non crimes. I'm Kira Jane o'. Sullivan.

[E]

And I'm Griff Stark Ennis.

[A]

Each week we dive into real hilarious minor bits of drama submitted by our listeners and we provide completely unqualified verdicts. No drama is too small for us. It's perfect for true crime fans who like to laugh and comedy lovers who enjoy a little bit of bull petty.

[E]

Crimes where every case is completely petty.

[A]

New episodes every Tuesday. Tune in now and stay petty. Hello Erin hi. The day of the proxy conversation, I log into the video call with Aaron 10 minutes before letting the proxy in. How are you feeling I feel okay.

[E]

I'm a little stressed out that my computer's being so busy.

[A]

It's been five months since our initial call, and in that time I've been working on other episodes, but thinking a lot about Erin and who our proxy could be poking around. It seemed like a lot of people who forgive, the forgiveness just hits them in the heart one day, like a spiritual epiphany, which seems hard to replicate. In my experience, emotions, especially negative ones like resentment and anger, are stubborn and unpredictable. You can't just tell them to take a hike. Or can you? I wanted to know, is there someone out there who can perform the magic trick of disappearing a negative feeling to help someone cease to feel resentment? And then we found him.

[D]

Hello, Bob.

[A]

You are early. Meet Robert Enright, but he goes by Bob. Bob is a clinical psychologist and a professor in the department of educational psychology at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, who's written several books on forgiveness. Aaron, meet Bob. Bob, meet Aaron.

[E]

Hi, Bob.

[D]

Hello, Aaron.

[A]

Bob doesn't perform magic, but I found his work super impressive. He's a pioneer in what is now known as the science of forgiveness. In 1985, Bob had gotten tenure studying what he says was the norm in moral developmental psychology at the time. How children, adolescents and adults think about justice.

[D]

Okay, fine. But I woke up one day and asked myself this question, who am I helping with this work? And my answer was, nobody. So I threw it all over a cliff and I asked myself, well, what in the area of moral development, help people. And this idea of forgiveness came up where if you're thrown down into a pit by someone, how do you climb up? And I thought for sure psychology would have studied person to person forgiving in published form because we're the helping professions, right? So I did something really Primitive in the mid-1980s, I walked all the way to the library and I had a computer search of the literature by the librarian on all the published works on person to person forgiving. She came back a half hour later and said, there isn't any. It had been ignored.

[A]

Bob became the first psychologist to study person to person forgiveness. And he's since come up with a forgiveness program that's been found to be effective in many peer reviewed studies.

[D]

And so we were able to bring that to the field of psychology and other thousands of researchers studying the topic.

[A]

There are other peer reviewed forgiveness interventions out there, but I was drawn to Bob's because the people he studies aren't just college students. For example, he's done studies with children bullied by classmates, Jilted lovers, adult children who grew up with emotionally unavailable parents, even incest survivors. His basic research program involves giving questionnaires to people who've been hurt and measuring things like anxiety, depression, self esteem, and hope for the future. Then Bob randomizes who goes through the forgiveness program and who doesn't. And then he tests everyone all over again to see how they're doing.

[D]

And we usually tend to find that there is an increase in psychological well being after people forgive those who have very deeply hurt them.

[A]

If it's not surprising to you to learn that the people who forgave they tended to have an increase in psychological well being, well, that's probably in part because of the work forgiveness researchers have done in the past few decades. Bob says at the time he released his initial results, a bunch of colleagues were skeptical that this could be possible.

[D]

People thought it was soft, stupid, religious, too weak, too mushy, too non scientific to enter the arena of gathering data.

[A]

I ask Erin to explain her conundrum to Bob, and she tells him about being raised by her mom.

[E]

She would fly off into these rages.

[A]

And about the years of working through depression, addiction, eating disorders, anxiety.

[E]

All of it really comes back to this experience in my childhood that was really unsafe.

[A]

And how even though her brother is able to have a relationship with her mom, Aaron is still angry.

[E]

I'm not going to be able to invite her back into my life, but I would like to release the energy around it. So I'm really sort of like looking for a path through and like, yeah, I need your help.

[D]

Okay. I want you to realize that what you have just said is heroic. And it is heroic because you have admitted vulnerability and you know you need help. And many people actually deny that. I have a book entitled Forgiveness is a Choice. And I deliberately said that rather than forgiveness is a demand or else to make sure everyone realizes that, that it's their own free will not to have me drag you across the street to the forgiveness cave, because that's not what we do.

[A]

Erin, have you ever felt pressured to forgive?

[E]

I feel pressure to forgive from. I actually. I don't know that it's like a. No one has ever said, like, forgive your mom for the way she treated you and your sibling. But people in my family do encourage me to be in contact with her, which to me is just kind of a non negotiable right now.

[D]

See, that's what gets forgiveness in trouble all the time. People assume it means automatic reconciliation and repudiating justice. So I get the how dare you conversation. How Dare you ask me to forgive and go back into that relationship that could tear my heart out. And my answer is no, no, no. Let's sit down and talk about this.

[A]

Erin, what do you think forgiveness is?

[E]

I have the sense that forgiveness is when you release anger or release, like you. Gosh, it is hard to put into words. I think it's when you accept what has happened and you are able to move beyond it.

[D]

Let me take a look at what you said. You said it's a release of anger. Well, what if someone lies on the couch with a bag of potato chips and relaxes and the anger goes away? Is that forgiveness? Not really. Because once you get up from the couch and dust yourself off, you're going to be angry again. Accepting what happened would actually not be fair to you because what happened to you was unfair, and it will always be unfair. Forgiveness does not erase the injustice that you have faced. You do not throw justice under the bus. And you may or may not reconcile. See, reconciliation is when two or more people come together again in mutual trust. If you can't necessarily trust your mom yet, then you wouldn't necessarily reconcile. But that does not invalidate forgiving.

[E]

Am relieved to hear you say that. Forgiveness and reconciliation are, in fact, like two different things that are technically mutually exclusive. I think it's also validating to hear you say that. It makes sense that I'm angry because something unfair happened. You know, yoe knows a little bit more about the work that I do, but, like, I'm an advocate for people that don't have a lot of resources, let's say. And so it's like justice at the core of my being is like, the most important thing. I'm a libra, too, you know, Like, I really, really. I really care about justice, and I do feel like there is no justice in what happened. And so it was validating to hear you say, like, let's not throw justice under the bus because I get to hang onto my values.

[A]

To Bob, forgiveness is an act of mercy. So in the case of Aaron's mom, it wouldn't necessarily mean her mom deserves.

[D]

It, but you go beyond that, and that's what makes it perhaps the most heroic virtue on the planet, because what you're doing is you're standing in the truth of goodness when the other did not.

[A]

Bob says he can generally get people to that place. He starts them with what he calls the uncovering phase, which is to share.

[D]

The pain that you have brought into the present because of the injustices you have suffered.

[A]

This can be Extremely exhausting. Bob says people are kicking up their woundedness, which a lot of the time they've actually suppressed.

[D]

Many people actually deny their pain. You're not in denial.

[A]

Once they've felt all the feelings and processed them, then it's time for the hardest phase. Phase two, going over what forgiveness is and isn't and deciding, do I really want to forgive this person?

[D]

Are you willing to? Three words do no harm to mom. In other words, even if you have a chance to somehow be mean to her, you will deliberately try to resist that, and that's not easy.

[A]

If a person chooses to forgive, then they move to phase three, the work phase, what Bob calls hitting the forgiveness gym. He really loves this analogy.

[D]

When we first exercise our mind, we exercise our thinking.

[A]

Bob says, first you stop thinking negative thoughts about the other person and replace them with sets of positive thoughts. So in Aaron's case, no more thinking, God, my mom's controlling and reactive. Instead, she could try thinking something probably happened to my mom to make her that way.

[D]

Not that it's all rosy, but there's more to your mom than what she did to you.

[E]

Can I say something, please?

[A]

Yes, yes, yes, please do.

[E]

Yeah. So I think that not everything that I like, think and feel is negative. I certainly have, like, a lot of sympathy for my mother about, like, the time she grew up, the conditions in which she was raised in, like, born in the 50s. Her generation really doesn't have the language of my generation, where trauma is a trend on TikTok, where it's like, we can speak about it more accessibly and without a lot of shame. And so I have a lot of compassion for her. But to me, there are also lots of people who, like. Who grew up in, under, like, similar or worse conditions and who didn't beat their kids. And so it's like, I can really talk myself out of forgiveness, even though I don't think that my mother is, like, 100% bad or evil or wrong, she was doing the best that she could with the tools that she had at the time. I really believe that.

[D]

Want me to let you in on a little secret?

[E]

Yes.

[D]

You actually have started on the road to forgiveness, whether you know it or not, because you see your mother as more than the injustices inflicted upon you. You are not defining her in that way. And you actually have one of the biggies with regard to the positives, which takes a long time, by the way, Aaron, which is compassion. That's one of the goals of forgiveness therapy, to wait for the compassion to grow in the Heart where there usually is none. And so we see someone who's vulnerable, your mother scared. And I ask this question, is your mother special, unique, and irreplaceable? Does she actually have worth even though she has made some very, very bad choices and very frequently in the world?

[A]

If Erin were going through forgiveness therapy, says Bob, the last thing they would focus on is behavior. Like, does she ever find herself insulting her mom? Can she instead say something kind about her mom to her brother? Can Erin take it a step further and even perform a small act of kindness towards her mom, like donate some money to a cause she knows her mom cares about?

[D]

You could actually, when you're ready, shock her. Okay. By reaching out to her if your heart is ready and only if it's ready to practice a goodness to her that would startle her and you would leave a love in her heart that could then be passed to someone else and to someone else and to someone else, so that your love could actually be living on in the hearts of others 100 years from now because of what you did today. What do you think of this pathway?

[E]

I mean, it's complicated.

[D]

Yes, it is.

[E]

Yeah. I felt like a lot of resistance in my body when you said, is she also a worthy.

[D]

Worth?

[E]

Yeah. And of course, I believe that we all have worth. That is not a perspective that I've had my whole life, but I have come to understand that, like, we are born worthy, but I also choose to not have her in my life because I don't think she's trustworthy.

[D]

Right. And that's. That's. That's your call.

[E]

But I did feel resistance in my body. When you were talking about, like, that sort of, like, line of questioning, Bob.

[A]

Says, yeah, it makes sense. Your feelings aren't there yet, and that takes time.

[D]

We're not as in control of our emotions as we are our thoughts.

[A]

And to me, this is the magic trick of it all, that if you just continue doing the reps of thinking positive thoughts, doing nice things, Bob says eventually the feelings will follow.

[D]

Positive feelings can emerge. That might be sympathy, feeling sorry for her for what she has gone through and what she's going through going through now.

[A]

After the break, Aaron's anger rears its head. Welcome back to the show. So at this point in the conversation, forgiveness researcher Bob Enright has just walked through the phases of his program and explained how messy the process can be. He told us it can take 12 weeks minimum. The general rule of thumb being the deeper the wound, the longer it takes. For instance, he told us about this one wild study from the 90s that a student of his, Suzanne Friedman, did with 12 incest survivors.

[D]

And all of them were very kind to us and said, I'm going to ruin your study because I'm going to be the one person who's never going to forgive. Maybe you don't want me in your study.

[A]

The survivors met once a week, with Suzanne working through the phases of the program, trying to forgive one of humanity's most unthinkable offenses. Bob talked about one woman who, understandably, was struggling with seeing her father as anything other than a rapist.

[D]

And so she started working on feeding him in the hospital when he was dying. And so when she started this action of helping feed him, that softened her heart toward him, and she started seeing him much more broadly as a person of worth who did very bad things out of his own woundedness. And the more she started helping him, the more she saw that she had positive feelings toward him and positive thoughts not because of what he did, but in spite of that.

[A]

In the end, Bob says this therapy ended up working for every one of them.

[D]

It took a year.

[A]

It's not that they completely stopped having negative feelings. In fact, Bob says it. It's normal to have contradictory feelings.

[D]

It's not that you turn on the happiness light, and there's no darkness whatsoever. It all can blend together in a bit of a messy way, which is.

[A]

Why the fact that Erin is still angry at her mom, Bob doesn't find that discouraging. To him, she's already in the process.

[D]

You are not at the starting line of the forgiveness marathon. You have actually left the starting gate, and you are actually jogging or walking or even running that path in a way that is impressively advanced. And I want you to hear those words because I don't think you think you have made progress in forgiving your mother. And you have. You, Erin, have already done amazing work. And to tell you the truth, I'm very impressed with that.

[E]

I'm getting emotional.

[D]

Good.

[A]

Why? Why are you feeling emotional?

[E]

Because it does feel like work. It really does. It feels nice for that to be acknowledged. I know that I'm not on the other side because I may have just been sort of expecting it to happen over time where I, like, no longer feel anything about it. But Yowei and I have talked about this, like, honey bog where, like, everything feels really heavy when I try to, like, tackle this stuff. And it feels like I'm walking in a bog that is just made of honey, and, like, my legs are really heavy, and it's like, very hard to make any headway. I think one of my biggest questions is just like, what is it supposed to feel like on the other side?

[D]

Think of resentment as a dripping of water on a stone. When we have resentment in our heart and we have that slow drip as we think about the other and this idea of anger keeps hitting the stone, what eventually happens? Well, the stone, which is your heart, is going to degenerate. When you begin to do a little bit of the work of forgiveness, that drip starts to slow down and become less frequent. So the heart isn't quite as stony cold as it was before. Until eventually that drip is so infrequent and so light that it's not damaging your heart. And you've already begun to reduce some of this resentment. And I want you to hear that because you have been doing the work of forgiveness, you're becoming forgiven. Forgivingly fit, Aaron. See, I use those terms because you said it feels like work. Right? Forgiveness isn't just sitting there saying, okay, forgiveness, come on, smack me in the head, make me better again. No, you do the work slowly. And as you do that, the resentment goes down, the compassion goes up, which has already happened to you. And the effect then is mom does not have that kind of power over you anymore. What do you think of that?

[E]

I don't feel like she has power over me, so that's complicated.

[D]

Okay, that's good.

[E]

And I did a lot of work on like, forgiving myself. I think for all of, like, this self harm that I caused myself, thinking that I was broken. I do feel like I've done a lot of the, like, re parenting, but that doesn't erase the fact that, like, I still work at it. Can you imagine Bob and Yowei? Like, can you imagine what I would have done with my life had I not been suffering? Like, I would have been the president of something. The amount of time I, like, have spent in therapy, it's actually crazy making like, I think I might have put in 10,000 hours, you know, Like, I think of all of those years in recovery. Like, I don't get those years back.

[D]

Right. But I have a question for you.

[E]

Yes.

[D]

If you had to choose between the following two things, what would you choose? A, being the president of a corporation, admired by everybody, where you could shake your finger at them and say, jump. And they say, how high? Versus B, being sensitive to the pains, the wounds, and the suffering of other people and attending to that, which would you prefer?

[E]

Well, I wasn't thinking the president of a company. I was Thinking the president of a country.

[D]

How about the world? Let's say the president of the world. The president of the world versus something more anonymous, where you're attuned to the suffering of others. You know what that's like. And you want to bind up their wounds. Which would you prefer?

[E]

Well, I think I already live very much in this, like, second option, you know, where, like, I'm good at my job because I know how to navigate, like, complex emotional things, except for this. And I care a lot about people who can't advocate for themselves or need to learn how to do that. And I think that that certainly comes from having a childhood where I didn't have an advocate.

[D]

You know, what be which you chose was partially borne by the suffering through which you went. In other words, you used the suffering for good to find meaning in life. And what is important in life, it has humanized you to a degree that the lack of suffering might not have done that. The suffering has made you a gift to other people because you are sensitive to their needs to their suffering and you respond to it.

[E]

I was a gift to others, like, before this happened to me, you know, like, I didn't have to go. I shouldn't have had to go through this hard thing because I was a gift.

[A]

I've actually said these exact words to Aaron at a happy hour mixer. You're a gift. And then again, in her first phone call for the story after learning about her childhood, that maybe she was this amazing person because of the shit she's been through. And as soon as the words left my mouth, I remember being like, is that fucked up of me to say? Am I justifying her trauma? The weird thing is that Erin told me later it touched her at the same time, she didn't want to give what happened to her, which should never have happened to her, any credit.

[E]

It feels to me that I haven't, like, made the decision to and that I should feel ready to do that when I'm ready to forgive my mother. Does that make sense?

[D]

It does. And also keep in mind, again, so you're gentle with yourself when we started the conversation. Your view of what forgiveness is is typical of, like, moving on, not being angry. But I hope you see that there's a lot more to it than that. Yeah, you need to take the time then to let that percolate. But from what I am seeing, you are much farther down the road than you realize.

[E]

Yeah, I do have to jump out.

[A]

Unfortunately, we'd run long. Aaron had a board meeting to get to.

[E]

Thank you so much.

[D]

You're quite welcome. Thank you for.

[A]

It felt like Erin wasn't buying what Bob was selling. I was worried about her. There'd been a lot of sniffles. So a few weeks later, I checked in.

[E]

Oh, my God. I have a crazy story for, like, what happened right after our call.

[A]

Yeah, no, I've been wanting to, like, check in. Like, how did you feel after the call? Aaron said immediately after hanging up, she was power walking to her board meeting with all these thoughts and feelings from her conversation racing through her head. And then she got to the meeting.

[E]

And it was supposed to be our board chair's last chairing before handing it over to somebody because she was about to have a baby. And I showed up and she wasn't there, and they were like, she had her baby. And I just, like, burst out crying again. But it was like, you know, totally tears of joy. But the weird thing for me was that, like, I blubbered on that call, like, crying. But the nervous system thing did not happen. And that was very surprising to me.

[A]

The nervous system thing where, if you remember, crying fucks Erin up and her face gets puffy and blotchy for days, like she's having an allergic reaction.

[E]

And after that call, I woke up the next day and I looked fresh.

[A]

Really.

[E]

I didn't feel like I'd had the emotional kicked out of me.

[A]

Wow.

[E]

And I didn't. I didn't feel like death. And that night, someone was, like, checking in on me and they were like, how did the proxy call go? And I just was like, I'm far too exhausted to, like, actually get into it. But, like, I think it was exactly what needed to happen.

[A]

Wow.

[E]

To know that, like, I'm in the process. To know that I'm actually in the honeybog and that there are key indicators that some of the work is already being done and some of it is behind me and some of it is ahead of me. But I can see there are signs pointing to, like, the way through.

[A]

Thank you to Aaron for trusting this emotional investigative journalist. And thank you to Bob Enright for being our proxy. Bob has written several books on forgiveness, and he's the co founder of the International Forgiveness Institute, which has a bunch of free resources, including his forgiveness program. We'll put those links in our show notes. If you know someone who will get something out of today's episode, text them a link right now. We want this emotional investigative journalism to help as many people as possible. Proxy will be back on Tuesday, November 18, for our last full episode of the year. Sad. Good news is we're going to be back next year. Thanks to you dear listeners and everyone who signed up for our Patreon. Speaking of which, Roxy is an independent podcast that depends on listener support. Starting at $5 a month, you'll get access to ad free episodes, the chat and exclusive premium episodes. And if you just want our newsletter to get liner notes to episodes and BTs, you can just become a free member. Just go to patreon.com proxypodcast to get those brownies. This episode was edited by Tim Howard and John Delore, mixed by Kyle Pooley and produced by me with help from Kim Nadervane Petersa and Anna Karan Santana Music in this episode by Tim Howard. Our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Proxy is a proud member of Radiotopia from prx, a network of independent creator owned listeners supportive podcasts. Audrey Martovich is the Executive Producer of Radiotopia. Yuri Lozordo is the Director of Operations, discover audio with Visionadiotopia FM. As always, you can follow us on Instagram, Roxypodcast and I'mAishaw. Get in [e-mail] and if you like the show and want to help us grow, consider rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcasts. Apparently that stuff matters. Thanks for listening everyone.

[D]

Radiotopia.

[C]

From PRX.