Carrie Doesn't Know If She Can Afford a Baby (This Is Uncomfortable)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Proxy with Yowei Shaw – “Carrie Doesn't Know If She Can Afford a Baby (This Is Uncomfortable)”

Original Episode Air Date: July 28, 2026
Guest Podcast Featured: This Is Uncomfortable, Hosted by Rima Reyes
Main Guests: Carrie and Natalia Mansmith
Special Guest: Wendy Wright, Financial Therapist

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Episode Overview

This episode features an intimate story about Carrie and Natalia Mansmith, a married couple deeply in love and eager to become moms—but unable to resolve how much money is “enough” to start their family. The conversation, guided by Rima Reyes and later joined by financial therapist Wendy Wright, delves into how their divergent financial backgrounds fuel their ongoing disagreement. The episode explores love, security, family, financial anxiety, queer parenthood obstacles, and the challenge of making big life decisions in the face of uncertainty.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Dream That’s Always There: Meet Carrie & Natalia’s “Imaginary Baby”

• Carrie and Natalia have always dreamed of having a child, even naming their hypothetical baby Bryson.

  • Carrie: “Let’s refer to him as Bryson. Okay, this is Carrie.” (02:11)
  • Natalia: “He’s had a name since before we’ve gotten engaged, I believe.” (02:15)

• Although they fantasize about their future child during everyday activities, any real discussion about actually having a baby devolves quickly into a standoff.

Financial Stalemate: Different Definitions of Security

The Central Conflict:

• Carrie’s View: They can’t afford to have a baby yet—her minimum is a combined income of $115,000, grounded less in calculation and more in a feeling of safety and respectability.

• Natalia’s View: Time is of the essence (both are approaching 30) and believes love is more important than meeting an arbitrary financial benchmark.

• Carrie: “We can’t afford to have a kid.” (02:58)

• Natalia: “I’m ready. … The longer that I wait, my eggs aren’t gonna be useful.” (10:32)

• Carrie: “I want to say $115,000 to be able to have a child with our combined income.” (11:49)

• Carrie admits: “I don’t know how I came up with this number exactly… My dad makes six figures… that must be the number.” (12:16)

Underlying Fears:

• Carrie fears financial instability will lead her future child to experience the same shame and insecurity she did growing up.

• Natalia views family bonds and love as the real foundation for raising a child—not reaching a specific dollar amount.

• Carrie: “What if I just don’t want my kid to hate me the way I hated my mother?” (16:19)

• Natalia: “We didn’t have a house at certain times, but our family all banded together… So that’s why we disagree so much, is because she grew up in a family that didn’t really value that [communal aspect].” (14:58)

Practical Financial Concerns:

• Carrie earns ~$80k, Natalia ~$30k. They carry $50,000 in student loan debt and have minimal savings.
• Same-sex parenthood is expensive: IVF, adoption, and donor costs add up to tens of thousands of dollars.

How Their Pasts Shape Their Present

• Both experienced financial insecurity in childhood, but interpreted its meaning differently:
  • Natalia: “It was mostly about, like, the experiences that we did with each other and, like, the time and love that my parents gave…” (13:25)
  • Carrie: “For me, money became this god… money was the thing that could get her and her future child everything she never had as a kid.” (15:43)

The Feedback Loop: Fantasizing, Then Retreating

• Carrie often initiates baby talk and daydreams but then retreats in anxiety about money.

  • Natalia: "It hurts. Like, it hurts me. Because if we’re not ready, then we need to stop talking about it right now, because it’s making it harder than it already is." (18:50)

• Natalia gets tired of the cycle and wishes they could focus more on the essential parts of parenting.

  • Natalia: "When you’re so focused on money, you forget to focus on things that actually matter, like relationships, family members, bonds… There’s so much more to life than just how much money you have in your pocket.” (19:12)

Notable Quotes on Love vs. Anxiety

• Host Rima: "Would the love ever outweigh your anxieties around money?" (19:38)
• Carrie: "They might be equal. I don’t know if they’d ever outweigh." (19:52)
• Natalia: “To me, I know that the love would outweigh anything, because that’s how I feel now. And Bryson is not even here, but I already love him as if I’ve known him forever.” (19:57)

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Financial Therapy: Strategies to Get Unstuck

Segment Starts: (22:04)

Wendy Wright, Financial Therapist, guides the couple through three steps:

1. Removing Money Language

• Wendy helps Carrie articulate her hopes and fears without attaching them to a specific dollar number.
  • Wendy: “What does that number mean to you?” (23:28)
  • Carrie: “That number means that my child will go to school and not have student debt. … My child never having to decide I want to invite three friends to my birthday party but then worry about food…” (23:41)
  • Wendy: “It sounds like it’s connected to safety, security, protection, giving someone the nurture you want.” (24:01)

2. Money Dates with Time Limits

• Wendy recommends “money dates”—dedicated, timed conversations to talk about finances as partners, with limited scope and no lingering.
  • Wendy: “I find it helpful… literally use your timer on the phone, like 10 minutes, 15 minutes, and have one or two topics that you want to have covered that day.” (24:38)
  • Natalia: “I like the idea of a time limit… otherwise it just lingers.” (24:52)
  • Carrie: “Next thing you know, we started this conversation while we were making dinner at five and I’m getting into bed at eight o’clock…” (25:11)

3. Future-Focused Journaling

• Wendy suggests writing out scripts for hypothetical future scenarios, imagining how they’d wish to react rather than defaulting to old patterns.
  • Wendy: “Journal about scenarios that haven’t happened yet… script how you want to handle that and be detailed.” (27:10)
  • “We want to name the story you want your money to tell. … The story you’re wanting it to tell is things can be good and calm and nurturing.” (27:37)

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Progress & Memorable Moments

“Money Makeouts”: Trying Out New Habits

• After their session, Carrie and Natalia implement weekly “money date nights” (called money makeouts), using a timer to keep things from getting overwhelmed.

  • Natalia: “Okay, starting timer, seven minutes.” (29:07)
  • Carrie: “I’m hoping one day it actually ends up in a make out, but we’ll see. Probably not.” (29:29)

• In these newly structured conversations, they navigate everyday trade-offs (like the gas bill and sacrificing visits to save money) without escalating tension.

Small Steps Toward A Baby

• Progress is measured in baby steps—keeping conversations brief and positive, acknowledging anxieties but leaving room for hope, and learning to imagine a different, less fear-driven future together.

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• “If I have to get a turkey baster, then give me one and I will do this.” – Natalia (10:37 & repeated at the end, 32:35)
• “I will literally just leave you. That is just like a huge fear of mine. Coming home one day and there’s a stick on the counter, she’s like, guess what?” – Carrie (10:42)
• “I need to make so much money that my wife and my child will never have to wonder or worry.” – Carrie (16:03)
• “Love would outweigh anything, because that’s how I feel now. And Bryson is not even here, but I already love him as if I’ve known him forever.” – Natalia (19:57)
• “Money became this god… everything I never had as a kid: safety, security, dignity.” – Carrie (15:43)
• “We are going to be able to have the funds to pay for it this time. Now we’re aware.” – Natalia (30:22)

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Final Reflection

By the close of the episode, Carrie and Natalia haven’t landed on a definitive answer or dollar figure, but they’re learning—slowly—to talk productively about what they each need to feel safe enough to take the next step. The lesson: Sometimes moving toward a tough goal means learning to listen, reimagine, and take small steps together.

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For more episodes from This Is Uncomfortable, follow wherever you get your podcasts.

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Episode Structured and Summarized by AI, retaining the voices and heart of the original speakers.

Transcript

[Rima Reyes]

I'm Elizabeth Day, creator and host of how to Fail, where we hear from

[Carrie Mansmith]

people like this for Schitt's Creek, for example. If I had a partner going into that experience, I certainly would not have had that partner coming out of that experience.

[Elizabeth Day]

It's a talent to be a mom, you know, it's a skill.

[Rima Reyes]

And even we actually seen Miranda fail at a lot of things.

[Natalia Mansmith]

That was the best thing that could

[Rima Reyes]

have happened to her. That's how to fail. Find it wherever you're listening to this.

[Elizabeth Day]

Hello Prexy people. Today I recorded my first proxy conversation for the fall, which is about time I was starting to get worried. Did I mention it is difficult to find proxies? Anyway, as the team hustles to get the fall season ready today we are sharing an episode from a show I would classify as also being on the Emotions beat. This is Uncomfortable is a podcast from Marketplace about life and how money messes with it. Each week, host Rima Reyes digs into stories about the unanticipated ways money shapes our relationships, identities, and the choices we make. The show has looked into whether you should go broke for a bachelorette party, why parents turn their kids into influencers, and how to give your friends some of the legal and financial protections you usually reserved for spouses. Today's episode is about a married couple who both know they want to become moms. They've even named their future baby. They just can't agree on how much money they need to responsibly do it. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. And if you want to hear more from this Is Uncomfortable. Give them a follow in your favorite podcast, Apple. Okay, Enjoy the show.

[Rima Reyes]

Carrie and Natalia Mansmith know they want to be moms. They fantasize about baby clothes, cribs, tiny socks. Sometimes they scroll through TikTok or Instagram and fawn over other people's babies. Talking to them. It's almost like their future baby already exists.

[Carrie Mansmith]

Well, first of all, let's refer to him as Bryson. Okay, this is Carrie.

[Natalia Mansmith]

He's had a name for a long time. He's had a name since before we've gotten engaged, I believe.

[Rima Reyes]

And that's her wife, Natalia.

[Carrie Mansmith]

So Bryson, E.J. man Smith. You don't have to refer to him as that, but like, this is how.

[Rima Reyes]

Well, no, we'll refer. We'll refer to him as Bryson. Okay, that's not weird. Carrie and Natalia talk about this imaginary baby, Bryson all the time, at the breakfast table, in the car, during dinner. But lately, these conversations are Breaking down, ending in angry silence or hurt feelings because there's this one little thing that they're not on the same page about.

[Natalia Mansmith]

Go ahead, Kerry. You started first.

[Carrie Mansmith]

We can't afford to have a kid.

[Rima Reyes]

Carrie doesn't think they're making enough to have a baby yet. But Natalia doesn't want to let time slip away in case it becomes harder to get pregnant later. They're both nearly 30, which is the age fertility starts to decline. So this argument goes round and round.

[Natalia Mansmith]

It's always a rotating conversation. And it's like I get so exhausted sometimes because I'm like I'm ready.

[Carrie Mansmith]

But it just scares the heck out of me. It scares the wits out of me.

[Rima Reyes]

This disagreement about how much money is enough money to bring a kid into the world. It never seems to get resolved. It's like Carrie and Natalia are in this holding pattern, spinning their wheels, then falling right back into a never ending stalemate. And meanwhile, the biological clock keeps on ticking. I'm Eri Mejres and you're listening to this is Uncomfortable. This week on our last episode of the season, we're bringing you another money fight. That's part of our ongoing series where I talk to two people about one of their biggest fights around money and how they dealt with it or didn't. The thing about money fights between couples is a lot of the time you can kind of see them coming, like if one person grew up without money and the other person grew up with a lot of it. But sometimes money fights are harder to predict. And that's what intrigues us about today's story between Carrie and Natalia. Two listeners who grew up with some amount of financial insecurity, yet ended up with two, two entirely different relationships to money differences which today are at the center of their stalemate in deciding to start a family. Before we get into Kerry and Natalia's money fight, it's worth going back a bit to when they first met. They were both student athletes on the basketball team at a community college in California. And right away on the court, there was this chemistry between them. Like when they were doing drills and Carrie was trying to block Natalia.

[Carrie Mansmith]

Natalia drove into the hoop every time. She was quite the ball handler. Like I'm telling you, she was so good, like 10 out of 10 would recommend

[Rima Reyes]

Carrie wasn't out of the closet yet, but she was smitten with Natalia. She would try to chatter up, try to make her laugh. Natalia was sweet, kind hearted.

[Carrie Mansmith]

So she's still like to this day, she doesn't say any cuss Words.

[Rima Reyes]

Meanwhile, Natalia liked that Carrie was always cracking jokes and that she was tall.

[Natalia Mansmith]

I think she's 5 11. Yeah, she's pretty.

[Carrie Mansmith]

And a half.

[Natalia Mansmith]

And a half.

[Carrie Mansmith]

5 11. And a half 11. Put some respect on my name.

[Rima Reyes]

And it's during this time, as they're getting to know each other, that they started to pick up on cues about each other's financial background. Like this one time when Kerry was at the grocery store, she spotted Natalia using a benefits card to buy food.

[Carrie Mansmith]

It made me feel bad, and I remember thinking to myself, oh, my gosh, this girl is struggling.

[Rima Reyes]

Carrie knew what a benefits card looked like because she'd relied on it as a kid. She was raised by a single mom struggling with addiction. They lived in a one bedroom with a mini fridge, a hot plate, and bunk beds. And Natalia had also grown up with some financial insecurity, sometimes leaning on relatives for support or housing. On some level, it's like there was this shared unspoken understanding between them. And the romantic tension kept building until one day, right as they were walking out of practice, Carrie made the first move.

[Carrie Mansmith]

We had these really deep steps. So we'd gone down the steps, and I came and I grabbed her hand and I said, I want to hold your hand.

[Natalia Mansmith]

And when she did grab my hand that day, like, my stomach really did drop. Like, I've never felt that in my life before. And I was like, oh, well, there we go. I'm in love at that point. But I didn't want to tell her that because I thought I would be weird if I just said, I love you. Like, after she held my hand, they

[Rima Reyes]

started to see a lot of each other. Spending time together after practice, going out to eat, flirting. They weren't technically exclusive, but then one evening, Carrie got home from work.

[Carrie Mansmith]

I walk in, and she just has all these balloons all over the place. And they say things like, I love you. You're so important to me. You're so beautiful. Like, all this stuff. And inside the balloons, like, when you pop them, there were pairs of Victoria's Secret underwear. I love underwear. Like, that's like one of my things.

[Rima Reyes]

Yeah.

[Natalia Mansmith]

There was other things besides underwear. That was what she noticed the most because that's what she loved.

[Carrie Mansmith]

And then one of them said, will you be my girlfriend? And I said, yes, of course.

[Rima Reyes]

By six months, they knew they wanted to spend their lives together.

[Carrie Mansmith]

We were very much the stereotype. U Haul sponsor me.

[Rima Reyes]

On June 19, 2020, Natalia proposed to Carrie. She'd hired a photographer to hide and capture the moment. One year later, they got Married on a vineyard across the street from Carrie's grandparents house and moved in right next door to them. Kerri was working as an admin specialist in the hospital, steadily earning a bit more money. And Natalia had just started a nursing program that would put her on a path to a well paid job. It seemed like everything was moving in the right direction.

[Carrie Mansmith]

Natalia is the love of my life. Like I feel like I had to search like through many lifetimes to find Natalia. And I'm not kidding, our love, when

[Natalia Mansmith]

it comes down to it, it's hands down the strongest thing that I've ever felt.

[Rima Reyes]

But this is the moment, right as they're settling into together forever, that something started to shift. And it all began with the huge, yet oh so little thing they weren't talking. The baby. They both knew they wanted this baby someday, but just had kind of skimmed over the details.

[Natalia Mansmith]

We did what I want to say that couples shouldn't do. I think we put it off.

[Rima Reyes]

We'll figure it out later.

[Natalia Mansmith]

Yeah, we'll figure it out later. Exactly.

[Rima Reyes]

To review the gist of their impasse is Carrie doesn't think they're financially stable enough to give a kid a full, comfortable, risk free life. She brings home about $80,000 a year before taxes and Natalia makes about 30,000. They live in central California and they're getting a deal on rent since they live in a house owned by Carrie's grandparents. But even so, they don't have much in savings and they've also got debt, about $50,000 from Natalia's student loans.

[Carrie Mansmith]

You know, we're barely paying the interest, we're not touching the principal.

[Rima Reyes]

Despite all of this, Natalia feels like they can provide everything a kid would actually need. Shelter, food, and most importantly, a lot of love. At first, bringing it up at all felt hot to the touch. So they tiptoed around the topic, walking on eggshells, putting it off and putting it off. After all, they'd just gotten married. Wasn't it too soon for a fight? They wanted to bask in the glow of the honeymoon phase just a little longer. But the thing about unspoken gripes is that often they'll eventually explode. And that's what happened between Carrie and Natalia one day, a few months into being married. They were standing in the hallway of their house. Kerry was near the bedroom, Natalia near the guest room. And from each end of that hallway they went at it.

[Carrie Mansmith]

We can't afford to have a kid. You don't make enough money, you're not in a career.

[Natalia Mansmith]

I'm gonna get too Old. And the longer that I wait, my eggs aren't gonna be useful.

[Carrie Mansmith]

Not the financially sound thing to me.

[Natalia Mansmith]

I can go make it happen by myself. If I have to get a turkey baster, then give me one and I will do this.

[Carrie Mansmith]

I will literally just leave you. That is just like a huge fear of mine. Coming home one day and there's a stick on the counter, she's like, guess what?

[Rima Reyes]

After that fight, after having not talked about it for months now, it was coming up all the time occupying all this space between them and not getting resolved. No matter which way they look at it, Carrie just feels like they need to make more money first and get out from under the student debt. Which raises the question, how much money is enough money for a baby anyway? Many financial experts would say, well, it depends. Depends on where you live, what kind of school you want to send your kid to, how much you want to budget for childcare costs. The average cost of raising a kid in the US is about $15,000 a year for most middle income households. So most everyone agrees it's wise to have some money saved and a steady income. But you won't really find a universally agreed upon number. Still, that has not stopped Carrie from coming up with one herself.

[Natalia Mansmith]

Carrie, you have a cap on when she wants to have a baby, she says, we have to make, I want to say, 100, 115,000, $115,000 to be able to have a child with our combined income.

[Rima Reyes]

Hearing that, you might think Carrie sat down and meticulously came up with that $115,000 number. Like she ran some calculations about cost of living or school tuition or property taxes.

[Carrie Mansmith]

But I don't know how I came up with this number exactly. I just know that when I was in high school, it was a big deal that my boyfriend's dad made $100,000. That was like a big thing. He's like, well, My dad makes six figures, my dad makes $100,000. And I was like, that must be it. Like, that must be the number you want to go for right now.

[Rima Reyes]

Carrie and Natalia aren't actually that far off from Carrie's magic number. Their combined income comes out just 5,000 bucks short of $115,000. But this number, 115k, it's pretty much based on a feeling, not a calculation. In fact, it might be easier if there was a math problem at the center of this. Then you analyze the numbers, tweak the calculation, and great, we resolved it. It can be so much harder to resolve a fight based on Intuition. Kerry and Natalia have totally different feelings about money, which goes back to the baggage they each bring to their marriage. Even though both of them experience financial insecurity as kids, the circumstances surrounding it were worlds apart. Here's Natalia.

[Natalia Mansmith]

It was never about how much money we had. It was mostly about, like, the experiences that we did with each other and, like, the time and love that my parents gave to, like, me and my siblings. So I never really thought about money per se as, like, being a number that you have to reach in order to have a kid.

[Carrie Mansmith]

Yes, your parents did love you. Your parents do love you. My family, I remember a time when we were on food stamps and my mother had bought something, and I said, oh, my mom bought X or whatever it was from the grocery store. And a member of my family said, she didn't buy it. My tax money bought it. That's not yours, that's mine. And I don't ever want my child to feel like that.

[Rima Reyes]

Kerry's relatives were better off than her and her mom. In fact, her grandparents actually paid for her college, which is why she managed to graduate without any debt. But growing up, Carrie says she and her mom were made to feel like a burden by their wealthier family. Every gesture of support came with this judgment, like, how could you get yourself in this situation?

[Carrie Mansmith]

My mother was so strung out, like highs and lows, off of drugs, that it was to the point where I would go to school and people would be like, you smell, you know, and this is like in the second and third grade. And I remember saying to my mother, oh, well, you know, in Ms. Jones class today, they said, I. I smelled like cigarettes. And she would just start screaming F bombs at me.

[Rima Reyes]

But Natalia's family, they always had each other's back.

[Natalia Mansmith]

We didn't have a house at certain times, but our family all banded together. So that's when my grandma would say, you guys are coming to move with us. And they always made sure that the kids weren't feeling the brunt of it. We were more family oriented. So that's why we disagree so much, is because she grew up in a family that didn't really value that.

[Carrie Mansmith]

What is it, like, communal? My family was not communal.

[Natalia Mansmith]

Yeah, we had different upbringings.

[Carrie Mansmith]

You never had to worry about where your next meal was gonna come from.

[Natalia Mansmith]

No.

[Carrie Mansmith]

And I think if until you understand that, which I'm very thankful that you never have had to understand that, it takes a lot more than, you know, hugs and kisses.

[Rima Reyes]

For Natalia, her sense of safety and belonging wasn't solely attached to Money. She knew she could count on family for that, even when cash was tight. But for Carrie, growing up without much family support, money became this. God. Money was the thing that could get her and her future child everything she never had as a kid. Safety, security, dignity.

[Carrie Mansmith]

So that's why I think to myself, I need to make so much money that my wife and my child will never have to wonder or worry.

[Rima Reyes]

Because if her kid did wonder or worry, what if he wound up feeling the way she did about her mom?

[Carrie Mansmith]

What if I just don't want my kid to hate me the way I hated my mother?

[Rima Reyes]

This fear of slipping back into her past, it haunts Carrie. Consuming her nearly every day when she's driving or at the grocery store or when she's cooking. These thoughts fill her head.

[Carrie Mansmith]

Am I going to be able to get Bryson name brand clothes that I wasn't able to get? Is Bryson going to be the only kid when he comes back from a summer vacation that can't raise his hand and say he went anywhere for summer? He's probably going to have to ever worry about us not being able to pay the bills.

[Rima Reyes]

And as the primary earner, Carrie's the one who earns 80,000 and Natalia makes 30k. She feels all this pressure to have every single base covered to pay for insurance, health care, all while chipping away at the debt and the bills.

[Carrie Mansmith]

I'm afraid that if something were to happen to me, she can't take care of herself, let alone a a child.

[Rima Reyes]

What if Natalia suddenly found herself alone with a baby, a $30,000 income and a pile of student debt? Natalia had been on a career path at her nursing program. But without getting into the weeds of it, she was dealt a stroke of bad luck and wasn't able to fulfill all the medical and health requirements. So she got kicked out.

[Natalia Mansmith]

So that threw off my timeline on having my career and now I have to change paths.

[Rima Reyes]

It puts them in this agonizing holding pattern. Natalia is now trying a professional do over to become a teacher, which is expensive and time consuming. And on top of it all are the expenses that go with same sex parenthood. IVF can cost tens of thousands of dollars and adoption can cost up to 45,000 or sometimes even more if you adopt outside of the U.S. so every week they go back and forth with Carrie being like, it's just too expensive.

[Natalia Mansmith]

And I'm like, well, I don't care. I'm ready to have it anyways. But then we drop it. And then the next month she's talking about it Bryson is going to be so cute. And I'm like, yes, let's do this.

[Carrie Mansmith]

And then the next, we're looking at baby clothes.

[Natalia Mansmith]

Then we're looking at baby clothes, and she's looking on the donor list for, like, guys that look like her. And she's like, look, he would look just like me if we picked this donor. And I'm just like, oh, my God, this is amazing. Yeah, let's do it. And then, like, two weeks later, it's like, but we're not making enough money. And it's like, oh, my God, let me go out and just get pregnant already so it can be done with.

[Rima Reyes]

Natalia gets frustrated because even though Carrie is the one resistant to having a baby, she's usually bringing up Bryson fantasies in the first place, only to backpedal later.

[Natalia Mansmith]

Can we just not address him in the store? Like, look how Bryson's gonna look so cute in these clothes. Because it hurts. Like, it hurts me. Because it's like, if we're not ready, then we need to stop talking about it right now, because it's making it harder than it already is.

[Rima Reyes]

For Natalia, it feels like the conversation is overly weighted toward just one part of the baby equation.

[Natalia Mansmith]

When you're so focused on money, you kind of forget to focus on the things that actually matter, which are, like relationships, family members, bonds that you have with your friends, moments in time. And I feel like if you focus so much on money sometimes that that can get skewed. But I feel like there's so much more to life than just how much money you have in your pocket.

[Rima Reyes]

So I'm curious. When it comes to creating a family together, if you feel like the love would ever outweigh your anxieties around money,

[Carrie Mansmith]

they might be equal. I don't know if they'd ever outweigh. Yeah.

[Natalia Mansmith]

To me, I know that the love would outweigh anything, because that's how I feel now. And Bryson is not even here, but I already love him as if I've known him forever.

[Rima Reyes]

Carrie and Natalia have talked and talked and talked, but at this point, it feels like they're talking past each other. For now, they're just trying their best to keep on marching towards that $115,000 number, doing what they can to cut costs. Like, Carrie stopped getting her nails done, which saves about $200 a month, and they're spending less money on gas by visiting Natalia's family less often. But during our conversation, I found myself wondering. So much of this is about memory and experience. Experience more so than a Magic number. Would any amount ever feel like enough? What would it take for them to get unstuck? And could we help? That's after the break. One of the things about money fights is they tend to sound kind of like a broken record. You bring up the same point, counterpoint, point, counterpoint again and again with what feels like no progress. Disrupting that pattern is hard. It often requires help and a willingness to be vulnerable and try something different.

[Elizabeth Day]

For all my normal Gossip heads out there, Normal gossip is back for Season 10 All Stars. Join host Richelle Hampton as she shares incredibly chaotic gossip from the real world. They are bringing back some all time favorite guests alongside new friends that people have been request for years. They've also got a brand new theme song courtesy of Radiotopia's very own Rishikesh Hirway. And to share another secret, Normal gossip is doing video this season. You can listen to normal gossip on all your favorite podcast platforms like usual or you can watch jaws drop on YouTube. New episodes come out every Wednesday all summer long.

[Rima Reyes]

So on a Monday evening, we invited Carrie and Natalia to sit down for a zoom call with someone who could maybe help them approach their money fight in a new way.

[Wendy Wright]

Well, Natalia and Carrie, it's great to meet y'. All.

[Rima Reyes]

This is Wendy Wright. She's a licensed financial therapist based in Colorado. And I should say whenever we invite a financial therapist on the show, I gotta stress that this is not true therapy. Therapy is private and usually happens over many sessions. But Carrie and Natalia were very down to speak with Wendy on the record for this episode.

[Wendy Wright]

Ask how are you? What feelings are coming up right now? Even as you're just entering this topic, do you notice any feelings bubbling up?

[Carrie Mansmith]

I'm hot and I'm sweaty and clammy and it's. It's uncomfortable for sure.

[Wendy Wright]

So helpful to name. Yeah. Natalia, what about you? Anything you're noticing?

[Natalia Mansmith]

I would say, I wouldn't say uncomfortable, just kind of stuck.

[Rima Reyes]

For this part of the episode, we're going to share three tools that Wendy often uses with her clients. Tools that honestly can be used for all sorts of difficult conversations, but that are especially helpful in getting unstuck with money. Okay, so tool number one, Wendy says that one way to get to the bottom of our relationship with money is actually to try to take out the money language completely. Like no money words at all. In Carrie's case, no mention of the $115,000 benchmark.

[Wendy Wright]

So let's take that number right now, that number that feels really powerful. The 115 without using that word, what are you wanting to carve out? What does that number mean to you?

[Carrie Mansmith]

That number means that my child will be able to go to school and not have student debt. My child never having to decide I want to invite three friends to my birthday party, but I'm going to have to hear about my mom not being able to feed us later. That's what that means for me.

[Wendy Wright]

It sounds like it's connected to safety, security, protection, giving someone the nurture you want.

[Rima Reyes]

Wendy explained to Carrie that that number, 115,000, it's less about what the money could actually buy and more about the power Carrie assigns it, symbolically.

[Wendy Wright]

Even though right now the number has the power, that number is always going to be changing and evolving anyway.

[Rima Reyes]

The second strategy Wendy suggested was to schedule regular timed sessions for Carrie and Natalia to talk about money. She calls these meetings, money dates.

[Wendy Wright]

What I find really helpful is to come into it with a very small, limited time and literally use your timer on the phone, like 10 minutes, 15 minutes, and have one or two topics that you want to have covered that day.

[Natalia Mansmith]

I like that. I like the idea of having a time limit. I think that'd be great because I think you're right. It does tend to get to nowhere and then it turns into but I'm still thinking about it or it's still just lingering. And then like the next day, if it happens again, it's like, here we go again.

[Wendy Wright]

Yeah. What are you noticing, Carrie?

[Carrie Mansmith]

I. I was thinking the same thing in regards to the time because I do notice, like Natalia just said, if we start talking about it, it just goes and it goes and it goes and it goes. And next thing you know, we started this conversation while we were making dinner at five and I'm getting into bed at eight o' clock to get up to go to work at 4 and I'm like, okay, well, you know, let me know when you're out of debt. And then, you know, roll over, go to sleep kind of thing. Like just really sassy, really rude, really not productive. And that's the hardest part for me because I were not collaborating with each other at that point.

[Rima Reyes]

Wendy says that when money has become a dreaded topic in a relationship, you need to re establish trust that you and your partner are capable of talking about it and walking away feeling okay. That's why the timer is crucial. It helps remind both people that even if things get tense, they have an out and that they can take a breather before the next money date. It's important to set some goals for these talks, and especially at the beginning, to focus on some positive things.

[Wendy Wright]

So sometimes those things can be like, okay, how did you feel about your paycheck this week? What did you like that you did at work that brought that paycheck to us?

[Rima Reyes]

And she told him to make this date feel casual and light. Carrie liked that idea.

[Carrie Mansmith]

We'll make it fun. We'll have, like, hot chocolate or something. We're not really big drinkers, so maybe we'll have, like a charcuterie board or something.

[Rima Reyes]

The third strategy Wendy suggested journaling. Not the kind you might be familiar with, like writing about things that already happened. She actually recommends journaling about scenarios that haven't happened yet. Here's an Carrie worries about how she'd react if Bryson walked up to her one day and asked her for money for a field trip. What if she gets anxious on the spot and makes him feel guilty? What if she feels like they can't afford it? Wendy told Kerry, write out the script

[Wendy Wright]

of how you want to handle that and be detailed. I picture myself I'm sitting at the kitchen table. I was drinking a cup of tea, and they came in and they said, hey, I need $5 for a field trip. My first thought was, oh, no, I don't know where it's going to come from. And I took a breath and I said, okay, let me work on that. Or, like, you know, kind of give.

[Rima Reyes]

What Wendy's having them do is edit the current story by imagining a different one.

[Wendy Wright]

I often will say, we want to name the story you want your money to tell. And right now, right now you've got this $115,000 in your head, and the story you're wanting it to tell is things can be good and calm and nurturing and all this. So we're just expanding that.

[Carrie Mansmith]

I think that's a great idea, actually. Just. Yeah, because actually, when you were saying that, it made me remember that, okay, you're going to be the parent. Like, I think. Because a lot of times I think back to my parents, and I think that my parents, not that they're actually going to be raising our child, but that. Because what they did, I should do.

[Natalia Mansmith]

I think it'd be interesting to see how you would parent without parenting yet or, like, what would happen in those kind of situations when it came down to money. Or maybe even just seeing, like, the differences and what we come up with as a response might be pretty interesting.

[Rima Reyes]

Wendy says the thinking behind this is to help people remember that they do have agency in their life and just the act of recognizing that can make these conversations more expansive. Unless charged. Their chat with Wendy lasted about 45 minutes.

[Carrie Mansmith]

Thank you, Wendy.

[Wendy Wright]

Yeah, lovely to meet you.

[Rima Reyes]

Lovely to meet you.

[Natalia Mansmith]

Bye.

[Rima Reyes]

A few weeks after the session, Carrie and Natalia were already trying out some of Wendy's strategies, including timed money dates.

[Natalia Mansmith]

Okay, starting timer, seven minutes.

[Carrie Mansmith]

Starting timer, seven minutes. Go, go. Okay, it is about 6:45pm we just finished having some bomb Chinese food.

[Rima Reyes]

For. On their kitchen calendar, Carrie has marked one day each week as a money date night, or as they like to call it, a money makeout.

[Carrie Mansmith]

I'm hoping one day it actually ends up in a make out, but we'll see. Probably not.

[Rima Reyes]

They know that to move forward, they'll have to be intentional about finding new ways to really hear each other with compassion and, and work through the financial anxieties, even small ones like monthly bills.

[Carrie Mansmith]

$250.

[Rima Reyes]

That's a lot.

[Natalia Mansmith]

It is. But going forward, I think that we just need to compromise a little bit when it comes to the heater and the air conditioner.

[Carrie Mansmith]

I mean, I can work more out.

[Natalia Mansmith]

Well, I feel like. No, I feel like what we can do is because you did put a lot in the savings this time.

[Carrie Mansmith]

Like, I already took it out.

[Natalia Mansmith]

Oh, you did?

[Wendy Wright]

For what?

[Carrie Mansmith]

For gas.

[Natalia Mansmith]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Carrie Mansmith]

Now this bill is just looming over my head and I have. I'm gonna have anxiety about it because I just got paid on Thursday. I busted out a bunch of bills and I don't know, that's understandable.

[Natalia Mansmith]

But at the same time, you can't beat yourself up for something, especially if you can't change it now. So we just have to move forward. You know, we're luckily we are going to be able to have the funds that, to pay for it this time. Like now we're aware,

[Rima Reyes]

of course, this money make out session wasn't earth shattering. It wasn't meant to be. But they at least got through the seven minutes talking about their finances without any tension or hurt feelings, which felt like progress. I also keep thinking about what Wendy said, how they'll basically have to start reimagining a different future, one rooted in hope instead of fear. It's something they both desperately want, but they know to do that and to reach their ultimate goal of having a baby that first, it might mean taking some baby steps. All right, that is all for our show this week. And like I mentioned at the top, this is also the end of our season. We'll be back with new episodes this fall. In the meantime, if you also want to share your story, or if you have any thoughts about the show, you can always email us at uncomfortablearketplace. This episode was lead produced by Camila Kerwin and hosted by me, Rima Grace, and it got production support from Marque Greene, Phoebe Unterman and Peter Balanon Rosen. Our Senior Producer is Zoe Saunders. Our editor is Karen Duffin. Marquee Green is our digital Producer with help from Tony Wagner. Sound design and audio engineering by Drew Jostad. Donna Tam is the Executive Director of On Demand and our theme music is is by Wonderly. All right, I'll catch y' all later this year.

[Natalia Mansmith]

If I have to get a turkey baster, then give me one and I will do this.

[Carrie Mansmith]

Radiotopia from PRX.