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Proxy with Yowei Shaw
How This Introvert Ally Gets Along with Introverts (Plus Campaign Update)
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- [00:02]
A
Hey, it's Yowei. You're listening to another Proxy premium episode. I know it's been a minute since we've published a bonus. We've been a bit preoccupied with the membership campaign. Thank you for your patience. Thank you for supporting the show. The proxy team salutes you. Today we are taking another historic step in extrovert introvert relations by bringing an extreme introvert, me, and an extreme extrovert into conversation to see if we can make peace on any more fights. If you listen to our episode, the first ever extrovert introvert cage match, you'll recognize Jennifer Kahnweiler as the mediator who held us back from coming to blows. Jennifer got her doctorate in counseling and organizational behavior. She's written a bunch of books, she does a lot of coaching, and she's made it part of her mission to help extroverts and introverts get along better, mainly in the workplace, in full transparency. I couldn't find an expert on friendship between introverts and extroverts, but Jennifer's expertise seemed like the next best thing. Because not only does she have a lot of practical experience helping the two sides coexist, she's a human. So she's had many relationships across the divide herself. In this conversation, Jennifer reveals the challenges of being an extrovert married to an introvert, the changes she's made in her relationships to make them work better. Plus, we have a round of juicy listener questions. I really appreciated the practical tips and personal experience Jennifer shared, and I actually feel more equipped to try to get closer to the extroverts in my life. Before we start, I just want to say there is no one agreed upon definition of introversion and extroversion. But we do know that it's a spectrum and that most people are a mix of introverted and extroverted. Introverts tending to be quieter, more introspective and deliberate. Really into alone time. Extroverts tending to be more talkative, outgoing, energetic, really into socializing. But remember, not all extroverts. Not all introverts. It's just one lens to look at personality. Okay, here's my conversation with Jennifer Kahnweiler, an extrovert who identifies as an introvert. Ally.
- [02:34]
B
I got into this work because I was many years ago, 52 to be exact, married an introvert. And I didn't know a lot about that then. I didn't know anything about it. I came from a very extroverted world, and probably after the first year of marriage, I realized I needed to figure this guy out. Because what so attracted me to him sort of became challenges for me.
- [03:00]
A
This is your husband Bill that we're talking about?
- [03:03]
B
Yes, Bill the introvert Bill, we call him.
- [03:05]
A
Did you not realize he was an introvert when you got married?
- [03:11]
B
Well, yeah, I didn't have that term of introvert, you know. All I know is that he did a great job of balancing my energy. I was very, and I still am a high energy person, I would say. And he had a very calm feel to him. And so it just had an intuitive way of like working for both of us. I think he was attracted to my energy.
- [03:34]
A
Yeah. Could you share an example of one of those early friction points?
- [03:38]
B
Yeah. Like one time we were coming home from a party. I remember early on. And when I met Bill and I met his family, they were very social. He comes from, also very social. And so he had the social skills, if you will, to be in conversations with people. So he was at this party and I was enjoying watching him relate to other people. And he was getting into deeper conversations with some of them. So then we were coming home in the car, and I remember we just moved to this town in Massachusetts and I said, oh, we could be friends with these people. And what about that hike they were talking about? And like, I got nothing. It was like crickets. And I'm looking over at him and I'm saying, what's going on? So I just revved it up more, asked more questions, and I think that just shut him down more. So when we came back to our apartment, I was really frustrated and so was he. And it was a tiny little apartment. He went to one side, I went to the other, and I was like, oh, this is a problem. Because I kept saying, what's wrong? What's wrong, Bill? And that was really shutting him down. And I was very fortunate. I really look at it as a stroke of luck that at that time I was. About a week or so later I took the Myers Briggs. But there've been so many assessments since then. And the introversion, extroversion spectrum on there was just completely blew my mind. I was like, oh, I think I need to understand this. I just have to stop judging.
- [05:00]
A
What were you judging about Bill in the beginning?
- [05:03]
B
Oh, so much. So much. Like, he's so smart, he has so much to offer. What does he think about these topics I'm bringing up? I needed for me yoe I needed to engage. That's where I connect with people, is to talk with them. And he was thinking about his answers. He was very slow in his Responses. And the reason I was perplexed is because, as I said, he seemed to get along with people. In fact, his mother told me he was one of the most popular kids in school. But it was very frustrating to not get that response that I was so used to.
- [05:40]
A
What was frustrating for him in the.
- [05:42]
B
Beginning, I don't think he knew what to make of the spinning plates, you know, the ideas that I would come up. It's like, oh, as I mentioned in the car, we could do this, we could do that. I think in his mind, he thought I was talking about doing everything, and he would just shut down because he would reflect on my suggestions, for instance, or my reactions. And then I was also throwing something else out there. And that's what extroverts do. We oftentimes, when we think through our talking, we express ourselves verbally, whereas introverts, we'll internalize. And so he was getting, I think, very stressed out. And he still does sometimes, you know, he'll still hold up one of my four books and say, read the book. Because I have to keep reminding myself.
- [06:26]
A
Not holding up your own book.
- [06:29]
B
And so it really was a lens, one lens that was an important one that we've used through our entire marriage to navigate decisions that we make, planning how we live together in the same house, you know, and now that our kids are grown and gone, it's very important for us to understand that. And I think that's why I was so drawn to this work in my professional world, because I knew how helpful it was to not pack up and go, but to try to understand each other.
- [06:59]
A
What's an example of something that shifted for you and Bill once you had this lens to use?
- [07:07]
B
Okay. One of the things was time. How I looked at needing to get responses, and how I respected his need to think about things before we discussed things. So, for instance, if we were gonna make, like, a purchase for the house, I wouldn't just say, oh, I have heard that. You know, there's this great thing we can get for the kitchen, and blah, blah, blah, just say it. I would think about it, and I would ask him when we could talk about something, so it would be on his. Almost on his calendar. I'd say, I really want to talk to you about this. And this is the topic. I mean, literally, almost like a work meeting.
- [07:41]
A
Wow.
- [07:42]
B
I know. People thought it was so hokey, but it really worked for us.
- [07:46]
A
Oh, it sounds like a dream to me to be made an appointment with. That's like, one of the reasons why living with people early on in my 20s, was so difficult for me and why I would constantly get annoyed with my roommates, my poor roommates, who were like, perfectly nice people who wanted to just ask me how my day was going. And I'm like, why are they always asking me how I'm doing? Can't they see that I'm reading a book?
- [08:16]
B
I'm reading a book and leave me alone. But see, you didn't have that awareness. You didn't have that awareness. But the other thing I'll say about those meetings that we had, I also give him, if there's information to share with him, like, if that new product I was talking about, I will send him a link. I'll say, this is what. So it gives him a chance to do what he does best, which is to think about it, process, read, review. And then he'll come back. Sometimes he'll write me back. And I had to accept that, too, because a lot of times, extroverts, we read, like, the beginning of the email and that's it, you know, and we just miss it. So I had to realize, no, I have to respect what he's doing. It's two different languages, Yowei. It's like becoming conversant in another language. It really is.
- [08:59]
A
Okay, so, Jennifer, obviously you've put your knowledge about introverts and extroverts to good use in your marriage. I want to know about your friendships now. Have you put any of the lessons you've learned through work into practice with friends?
- [09:16]
B
So I have a friend who's very introverted. We meet for coffee every couple months, and I'm usually the one. I was thinking about this before I came on the podcast. I'm usually the one that starts with, how are you doing? Okay. And then I'll start talking about myself. Right. Cause that's what we do. Because she's just calm and she's sitting there quietly having her coffee. Or if I throw her a question and say, how are you doing? So? And so she'll be like, oh, yeah, things have been okay. And I don't want to, like, probe her right then. So I'll start talking. But I have learned to give space. I'll talk a little bit about myself, and then I'll say, oh, you said, like, you had a lot going on right now. So what's happening? And, you know, if she bites, I'll let her just keep talking. And I will hold my hands.
- [10:00]
A
You'll hold your hands underneath the table?
- [10:03]
B
Yeah, I'll hold my hands down. That's like, shut your mouth. And then I also have this little bracelet I wear now that I just started wearing to mean, listen. This is for me to listen.
- [10:13]
A
What do you do? What do you do with the bracelet?
- [10:15]
B
It's my little, like, anchor, my little reminder. Like, oh, yeah, I need to listen. And the last time I did this, we were there for an hour. She spoke for, I would say, 50 minutes. And that's the first time that ever happened. That's the longest. Now, I would have a problem if that continues.
- [10:34]
A
Right. I was going to say, isn't friendship supposed to be a back and forth? That sounds like monologuing, which is not fun.
- [10:41]
B
It was monologuing, but it was different for her. And she's going through an extremely hard time in a work situation. So I needed to be with the listener. But I was thinking about on the way home. It's not even, you know, but that's okay. Friendship is not even ever. You know, you have to. But here's the key word. Trust. She trusted me to open up. So I think. And that, you know, falls on us extroverts to make the space. This is what I always have. Leaders say, what's one thing I could do? They're usually extroverted leaders. What's the one thing I can do? I was like, just don't talk. You know, nature abhors a vacuum. Give space to the introvert to express themselves.
- [11:25]
A
I appreciate that. Have you had to make any other changes as an extrovert to get along better with introverts?
- [11:33]
B
Let me think, Let me think. Speaking as an extrovert. And I've had to learn this not to be too much. You know that term, too much?
- [11:42]
A
Yeah. That seems like button crazy.
- [11:46]
B
It is.
- [11:47]
A
What does that mean for an extrovert? To learn not to be too much.
- [11:51]
B
I do understand why it's become a hot button, but I also think a lot of us can be that way, you know, rampant enthusiasm. Oh, I think we could be best friends. You know, my dad used to be like that. He would, like, meet people and then like, oh, we're gonna be great friends. And then eventually, of course, it would fall apart. My mother would always say, we'll see how long this one lasts. Enthusiasm, you know? But I think we also have to be careful to not push ourselves on people, you know, And I always feel if they're gonna be, they will be. Not everybody's going to be a friend.
- [12:22]
A
Yeah.
- [12:23]
B
You know, it's nice to have a variety of friends. And when some friends aren't available, we just have to, like, accept that, you.
- [12:28]
A
Know, that's very wise. Any complaints about your introverted friends that you've had to work through?
- [12:37]
B
Yeah, I think for me, you know, I have some friends who are, like, very passive with making plans and, like, so I'm the one that, like, does it. But then I start to resent that. So they're kind of, sit back, whatever you want, because I don't want to always be the one. I think it should be a shared responsibility and that I will share, that I will talk about.
- [13:01]
A
All right, Jennifer, for this next section, I want to run through a bunch of listener questions. We got.
- [13:07]
B
Yep, I'm ready.
- [13:08]
A
Okay, so the first question. Well, it's really. We got kind of the same question from two listeners. Here's what they say. As the extroverted friend, I don't think my introverted friends understand how heavy the lift is to plan the events, start the conversation, and bring the energy. Yes, it comes more naturally to us, and, yes, it seems like we're dragging you along. But in this increasingly asocial world, where it is easier to not go out or sit at home and watch another Netflix show, how do we encourage extroverts to do that work for their introverted friends when there's nothing often appreciation or reward or even reciprocity?
- [13:47]
B
Hmm. So the introverts oftentimes will be the silent players, and we need both. Right, to have a successful outcome.
- [13:56]
A
Well, it seems like there's an imbalance with the workload of maintaining the friendship. This other listener had another version of this problem. As an extreme extrovert, I am enjoying a lot being always open to other people's energies as it brings a lot of interesting people to my life. I also had a debate with my introverted friends. That one, yes, I understand they're introverted, and it's harder for them to handle some situations. But at the same time, I am always the person who needs to organize gathering. Otherwise, they're friends we just wouldn't meet. It is great, but it's also a lot of work. It's the same with meeting new people. One minute of silence is pure hell for me. So I feel like I need to put in the extra effort. Sometimes it's easier to say some people are this way, but in fact, there's just not enough energy on the table. Hmm.
- [14:46]
B
Okay. There's some frustration there I'm hearing from the extroverted side. Yeah. So I think if we look at it as kind of like we both have the same goals to have a good time Right. And to, and to have friendships that are thriving and working. We have to talk about this. So we, we need to decide, like, let's say, not have a structured meeting with an agenda, but to have just a discussion. Let's do a zoom call, let's get together at the bar. Let's figure out, is this going to work so we can balance the workload. But the problem is a lot of times we just don't talk about it. So then resentments build up, judgments occur, and we start to stereotype and say, oh, it's because they're an introvert or because they're an extrovert. And that's not useful or productive. So I would say also use the strengths of those people. So if your introverted friend, for instance, is better behind the scenes, is better at organizing, putting the project plan together, capitalize on that. The successful partnerships of introverts and extroverts know how to cast the character so that they know who does what job best.
- [15:50]
A
Well, it seems like these extroverts are saying that they are the ones who always have to do the social organizing.
- [15:57]
B
Right. But I think that we all, we need to look at the picture as a whole and decide who's going to do what. So are they going to sit there and complain about doing it or are they going to bring it up to their friends next time? I mean, right? I mean, I think the next, next time it happens. It's easy to step in when nobody else is. But it is not necessarily the best way to do that. We have to ask for what we need. We have to ask for what we need.
- [16:22]
A
So a friend discussion, this kind of conflict, it's not normal. We should make it more normal. So what advice would you have for the extroverts for how to bring this up in a productive way?
- [16:38]
B
Well, sometimes it's easier yoe to do it one on one than to bring it to the group. So if you have a relationship with one of the people in the group who you just want to bounce it off of and together, figure out like, you know, explain your concern and whether it be the introvert or extrovert and talk about what's not working in the balance of planning these activities.
- [17:00]
A
I mean, just speaking as an introvert here, if I knew my extroverted friends felt this way about me, I would feel very embarrassed and I would want to rectify the situation. It would horrify me if I was not pulling my weight. I honestly hadn't even thought of this as an issue from the extrovert side, because I think, you know, from the introvert's point of view, you're, like, feeling overwhelmed and not thinking about, like, oh, from the other point of view. Yeah. That is actually a lot of work for you to constantly check in and constantly initiate hanging out.
- [17:33]
B
And you see it with the opposite as well. You could just as easily have had an introverted person write to you and say, these people are taking over and they're making all the plans, and I don't feel a part of things. So the point is, if we don't talk about these disconnects, they don't get better. You just build up. As I said, it's like bricks in a wall. The wall just keeps getting higher and then it falls apart.
- [17:58]
A
You know, another thing that I just want to bring up here is there's something to gain for the introvert in initiating and planning the activities, because then they get to have a. What you actually do.
- [18:12]
B
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think the extrovert who wrote this in should consider both of them stepping back. Just because there is a pause, it doesn't mean you have to be the one to step in. Let's see who else is going to step up?
- [18:28]
A
Because maybe the introverts do want to plan, but because they're slower to respond or just a little bit slower in general, they just haven't gotten around to it.
- [18:37]
B
Yes. One other thing to add to that is consider how you're communicating with your introvert. Are you talking about this to them? Are you also considering maybe writing an email or a text that's very clear about what you would like some help with? Okay, so writing is something to consider. When we talk about having two different ways of communicating. Language. Right. And extroverts love to talk, so they might talk it out, pick up the phone, you know, when they see you, just offhandedly say it. But give the introvert plate of their sweet spot and write and let them think about it. Sometimes we just don't think about using the modality that we use to get our concern out there.
- [19:26]
A
All right, number two, question number two. As an introvert looking to be more extroverted, how do I make sure I don't come across as rude or obnoxious? I. I'm so introverted that I spend nearly all my time alone. So during the few moments when I feel comfortable socializing, I worry I overcorrect.
- [19:46]
B
Mm. I can see that's a legitimate concern if you're not used to being out there more. And I could totally get that. I think what helps is to play to your superpower, which is preparation, and just prepare a couple of maybe talking points that you might want to bring up or a question when you're out and about. The other thing that I think is important is to regulate your negative self talk.
- [20:10]
A
So I'm hearing a lot of judgment here about the extroverts and also yourself, the introvert in this question.
- [20:17]
B
Exactly. You're totally right. Like saying that the extrovert is rude or you're afraid of being rude or obnoxious. Really gives us a bad rap, doesn't it? Us extroverts?
- [20:27]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:28]
B
There's another tip that I really like, and we use this a lot in networking and helping introverts to network. And it's something called needs and offers. And I use it myself if I'm on the way to go meet somebody I've never met. It's a little bit of a structure to the conversations. So what that means is like, you think about. You have two columns in your head and you're going like, okay, what do I need right now? What do I need to ask this person for? You might not start with that, but you just have it in your head. Maybe I need somebody to help fix my kitchen up or something like that. Or I need to know where I can find a pickleball court. Could be random things that you're like, thinking about that you would like some help with. And this is a great way to make the extroverts meal more comfortable because they love to help too. Right? So they love to give ideas.
- [21:13]
A
Oh, do extroverts love to help? Is that a thing?
- [21:15]
B
Well, they like to give advice. If they're talking a lot, they'll give advice. I'll speak for myself. Okay. And then offers is the other column and you could lead with that. Okay. It's like, what have you been excited about lately that you've been doing? I've been learning about AI or I just found out that my daughter is involved with this film she's working on. So just some conversational little touch points. Now, you may not use all of them, but they're in your mind so you could bring them up. It's like, have you ever been out to LA where my daughter lives? So you just. It's a great way to kind of loosen up the conversation. So that would help you to avoid thinking about, like, oh, I'm gonna be really obnoxious or I'm gonna be rude. I'm gonna be just like a person having a good conversation with Somebody.
- [22:00]
A
Yeah. What my husband and I do is before family vacations, we now spend time preparing some talking points for me.
- [22:10]
B
You do this. Oh, I'm excited. So, like for instance, what did you prepare last time? Do you remember?
- [22:15]
A
Oh, well, the big hit at this family vacation was my new hobby, which is I love to bedazzle. I love to attach rhinestones to clothing.
- [22:27]
B
Well, they're going to ask you about that.
- [22:29]
A
That's got to be. Yes, they're going to talk to me about it. I can show them pictures of, you know, shirts that I've made recently for friends. And then I also brought the bedazzling kit to the vacation. And I was with other people, but I didn't have to talk.
- [22:44]
B
Fantastic. That's a great, great example. Great example.
- [22:47]
A
Okay, question number three. I am an introvert but have learned through age and experience to become more comfortable speaking up. I often have one or two close extroverted friends in the beginning of our friendship. They often control the room and draw people in, which is fine. And I enjoy their boisterous personalities. In time though, I end up becoming more comfortable in the space and people will start giving me attention. It doesn't take away from theirs, but they have to make a bit more room for me to explore. More than once, I have had my extroverted friends start showing aggression or resentment when I start becoming low key extroverted at times, it has ruined friendships. Maybe it's a me issue, but I was curious if other people experience this.
- [23:36]
B
I think first of all, you are. Anytime you change the dynamic as much as she has, that is gonna disrupt things a little bit. The system is all connected. Right. So they're just not used to having her speak. On the other hand, the other point I would say is that sounds like the people that are acting that way maybe aggressive, is that they want attention themselves and that's why they were maybe grandstanding before. So I think that rhythm change shouldn't really upset people. In fact, if you were my friend caller, I'd welcome you speaking up and know that some people need a little time to adjust. And if they don't adjust, I would really question the friendship.
- [24:16]
A
Right. Have you heard of this kind of thing happening before with introverts and extroverts?
- [24:23]
B
I really haven't. I have heard a lot of frustration, but I haven't heard this exact situation. And it really makes me think, yowei, that this is not an issue of introversion. Extroversion. Because if we're friends and we're different personalities, it doesn't mean we're gonna get angry when you start sharing.
- [24:42]
A
Right? Right, Right, right. It seems like that's Friendship 101, and.
- [24:46]
B
It makes me sad. Right. It makes me sad to hear that, because I want that person who wrote in to feel comfortable with some of her new behaviors. She wants to practice those and refine them. And if she's not in what we call a safe space with friends, that's not a great place to do it. So I think that's good data for her to know. Life is short. We have to spend it with friends who nurture us. And that's not a good way to be if they're gonna be that way all the time.
- [25:13]
A
Okay. You're doing a great job, Jennifer. Can I just say. Okay, number four. I've always been drawn to the quiet ones, but I wonder if it's better to seek out people who push us outside our comfort zone, who literally amplify us.
- [25:30]
B
Yeah, I absolutely think that we need to seek a variety in our friendships. We only can learn and grow that way. I had a friend in high school named Judy who really changed my life. I was really doubting myself and not thinking that I was creative at all by just being around her and her quiet acceptance, her belief in me, her laughter at our difference. I remember her laughing at how extroverted I was and just also told me that she wished she could be like me sometimes. And I was wishing I could be like her. And it was just this beautiful friendship, which I never forgot. I mean, she changed my life. It helped me become a writer just by believing in myself because of her. So I think it's so important that we surround ourselves with those quiet people as extroverts and introverts. I think many introverted friends will tell me that they learn from me or from their extroverted friends about just how to navigate some of those tricky situations or work with people in a more effective way or enhance their families. What we do is bring out the parts of ourselves that we have not really explored. It's all within us. Introversion and extroversion, we all have all of those qualities, but it's tapping into them. And I don't think you're able to do that if you don't surround yourself with people differently than you.
- [26:51]
A
Huge plus one. As an introvert, I love my extroverted friends. They're just so fun to be around. I get so much good gossip because they're constantly out in the world and interacting and learning things and hearing things. And I also get invited to Lots of parties because of them. And then I meet other friends. Like I, I feel like the reason why I have a social life at all is because of my extroverted friends.
- [27:17]
B
The other thing that I think introverts will say too is that, you know, we're able to get the group kind of going. Right, Facilitate.
- [27:26]
A
Oh yes, thank God.
- [27:28]
B
Yeah.
- [27:29]
A
Okay, another question. How do you tell the difference between a healthy boundary, I need alone time and avoidance? It's just easier to stay home and not talk to anyone. I wonder if being so fluent in therapy speak lets us rationalize things like self isolating.
- [27:48]
B
Hmm, thoughtful question there. I think really my answer to that is to check in with yourself, where are you? Self awareness is the key here. Am I avoiding? I know if I'm avoiding and I know when I have to do self care and take care of myself. Right. So I think it goes back to spending a little time thinking what's going on here? And you said about therapy and therapy speak, I think it's one part of what therapists talk about. I think the whole movement of the introvert revolution has really in a way done a disservice in that we do still try to like label ourselves or might use that as an excuse. But I think overall the net gain has been greater and it's just another lens to look through.
- [28:35]
A
Okay, final question. What if any differences should we be mindful of when it comes to A celebrating an introverted or extroverted friend and B, supporting them through significant loss?
- [28:52]
B
So this is a great question. So first of all, I think that everybody's different. I mean, I have met introverts who do like to be celebrated and do a big deal on their birthdays, but sometimes they don't. But I think in general introverts like a little bit more low key celebration. So if you're trying to guess at it and you don't really have a chance to really talk to that person, I think it's best if you understand what works for them. But if not, just know that introverts don't necessarily like to be the center of attention. And extroverts in general might not mind it. Like for me, I tell everybody it's my birthday. My girls, when I'm celebrating with them are so embarrassed cause they're like, don't tell anybody else that it's your birthday. And you know, introvert Bill in my life, my husband, he never tells anybody. Nobody ever knows when it's his birthday.
- [29:43]
A
I'm the same, I don't tell anyone it's my birthday.
- [29:46]
B
So, again, checking in with people, I think in terms of supporting people, I think part of that question was supporting people for a significant loss.
- [29:56]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [29:57]
B
I would say it's two words. Be there.
- [30:00]
A
Be there for them, whether they're an introvert or extrovert.
- [30:03]
B
Yeah. For anybody. I think people might not ever tell you how much they appreciated that text that you sent when they lost their mother. But I think we have this thing about grief and about traumatic things that we kind of like or don't know what to say. So we say nothing. But I think for introverts and extroverts, I think you'll read the tea leaves. Some people might want to talk about it if you want to call your extroverted friend and she wants to start talking. But I find most of the time with introverted and extroverted friends, they just don't want to really talk about it too much in the beginning. I have a young friend who's going through cancer right now. Very tough experience, very treatments and the whole thing. And so I was texting him. Now he's introverted, but here's what he wanted. So I called him the other day, and he picked right up. He was in between treatments, and we had a really good talk, probably for about an hour. Okay. And then I said to him at the end of the conversation, how can I support you? And he said, you know what? I would like said I would like if every. It was Friday goes every other Friday, you would just call me. I may not pick up, but I would love to know that you're there. Yeah, I thought that was really cool. And he gave me a way to help him. So again, I think the bottom line is we need to ask people how we can best support them, you know, and in the beginning, just. And tell people. Tell people like he did to me. Yo, that was really helpful. Right?
- [31:29]
A
Wow, that's beautiful. I love that. And, yeah, best of luck to your friend.
- [31:34]
B
I know. Poor guy.
- [31:43]
A
That was Jennifer Kahnweiler. Jennifer has a podcast called Introvert Ally, and she wrote a book about how introverts and extroverts can get along better in the workplace called the genius of opposites. You can find out more about her writing and coaching@www.jenniferconweiler.com. we'll have that link in our show notes. Thanks for listening, everyone. Bye.