How to Break Out of 'Narrative Autopilot' [TEASER]

Summary

Proxy with Yowei Shaw: How to Break Out of 'Narrative Autopilot' [TEASER] – Detailed Summary

Release Date: July 8, 2025

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Introduction: Yowei Shaw on Internal Narrators

In the teaser episode of Proxy titled "How to Break Out of 'Narrative Autopilot'," host Yowei Shaw sets the stage by delving into a deeply personal and psychological topic: the concept of an internal narrator. Shaw begins by candidly admitting her discomfort with discussing her own past, revealing, “[...] I don't have a good answer. It's honestly all a blur. I don't remember much” (00:02). This confession serves as a springboard into a broader exploration of how internal narrators shape our perception of self and our lives.

The Role of Internal Narrators in Human Cognition

Shaw introduces psychologist Jonathan Adler from Olin College, who elucidates the significance of internal narrators. Adler explains, “narrative is the human adaptation” (02:32), emphasizing that storytelling is an evolutionary tool that helps humans navigate complex social and environmental landscapes. According to Adler, narratives allow us to “hold on to the pieces of our experiences that are most emotionally salient” (02:36), facilitating the integration of past, present, and future experiences into a coherent sense of self.

Adler further distinguishes between two cognitive modes as proposed by Jerome Bruner: the narrative mode and the paradigmatic mode. While the narrative mode is centered around stories and personal experiences, the paradigmatic mode is associated with logical reasoning and scientific thinking. He notes, “we operate in that [paradigmatic] mode when we're trying to make hypotheses about the world, test guesses about how things might go” (03:30). This distinction highlights the dual cognitive processes through which humans interpret and interact with the world.

Shaw’s Personal Journey Without a Strong Internal Narrator

Shaw contrasts her own experience with that of her guest, Amanda, who possesses a robust internal narrator. Amanda shares her journey into podcasting, stating, “I think I am drawn to this work specifically because I don't have a strong inner narrator, because this is the primary way that I make meaning out of life in the world” (05:55). This lack of an internal storytelling mechanism propelled Amanda towards external forms of narrative creation, such as podcasting, as a means to construct and understand her identity and experiences.

Adler responds by acknowledging the spectrum of internal narrators, suggesting that both extremes—having an overpowering internal voice or having a very minimal one—present unique challenges and benefits. He posits, “There's a whole spectrum of inner narrator. So Amanda's on the higher end, and you're on the lower end” (07:30), indicating that individuals may find themselves at various points along this continuum.

The Interplay Between Internal Narration and Career in Storytelling

Amanda discusses how her professional life in podcasting forces her to develop and refine her storytelling abilities. She explains, “As a host, I am now more often having to package my life, tell stories from my own life […] How would I tell a story in, like, an entertaining way?” (06:17). This necessity to narrate her personal experiences has both empowered and exposed her, as she navigates the balance between personal authenticity and public storytelling.

Adler introduces the concept of narrative identity, which sits atop the foundations of dispositional traits and characteristic adaptations. He likens the potential for change in narrative identity to the "set point theory" of body weight, suggesting that while certain aspects may be mutable through deliberate practice (“the diet and exercise version of conscientiousness”), dramatic changes are unlikely (09:10). This analogy underscores the complexity of altering one's narrative identity and internal narration patterns.

Exploring the Possibility of Changing One's Internal Narrator

Shaw raises a critical question: “once we find ourselves on one end of the spectrum, wherever we are, is it possible to change our inner narrator?” (08:36). Adler candidly admits the lack of empirical data on this matter but draws parallels to personality trait modification. He suggests that while substantial shifts may not be feasible, intentional practices could potentially enhance one's capacity for internal narration.

Amanda inquires about practical steps for increasing self-narrativization, to which Adler hints at straightforward strategies, although the conversation cuts off before these are fully detailed (12:20). This leaves listeners anticipating further exploration of actionable techniques in the full episode.

Conclusion: Anticipating Deeper Insights

The teaser episode effectively piques interest by presenting a nuanced discussion on internal narrators, personal identity, and the interplay between storytelling and psychological processes. Shaw’s personal reflections, combined with Adler’s scholarly insights, provide a compelling foundation for the full episode's exploration of "Narrative Autopilot."

Listeners are encouraged to subscribe to Proxy’s Patreon for exclusive access to the complete conversation between Shaw and Adler, where these themes are expanded upon with additional depth and practical applications.

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Key Quotes with Timestamps:

• Yowei Shaw: “I don't have a good answer. It's honestly all a blur. I don't remember much” (00:02).
• Jonathan Adler: “Narrative is the human adaptation” (02:32).
• Amanda: “I am drawn to this work specifically because I don't have a strong inner narrator...” (05:55).
• Jonathan Adler: “There's a whole spectrum of inner narrator. So Amanda's on the higher end, and you're on the lower end” (07:30).
• Amanda: “How would I tell a story in, like, an entertaining way?” (06:17).
• Jonathan Adler: “We definitely don't have data to answer that question.” (09:10).

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This summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the teaser episode of Proxy with Yowei Shaw, providing an engaging overview for both existing listeners and newcomers interested in the psychological underpinnings of storytelling and personal narrative.

Transcript

[Yowei Shah]

Welcome to Proxy. I'm Yowei Shah. So I'm somebody who hates getting asked about what I was like as a kid, teenager, college student. Not because I have a dark past or anything, it's just that I don't have a good answer. It's honestly all a blur. I don't remember much and I certainly don't have any good stories with a beginning, middle and end, with action, details, dialogue, scenes. Precisely the kind of thing I ask people to tell me in interviews all the time. Yes, I'm aware of the double standard. That's why I have a hang up about it. What do you mean? You're a podcast host who melts when asked about her childhood. And then recently I talked to the psychologist who blew open the way I think about all this. Jonathan Adler is a psychology professor at Olin College, and he explained what it means to have an internal narrator telling stories about your life. An inner voice I've never had or at least been aware of. Jonathan was the Proxy in her last episode, Amanda and the Non stop narrator. That episode is all about what to do when your internal narrator is too good at telling stories about your life to the point where it's getting in the way. But what if you're floating on the other end of the spectrum like me? The conversation with Jonathan helped me understand things that have been a mystery in my life. Why I felt like I wasn't awake as a kid, why I'm so drawn to podcasting, and what anyone can do to strengthen their self narrator if they wanted to. This is one of our bonus episodes. They come out once a month for our Patreon members and we're going to play you a preview you right now. To listen to the full episode, go to patreon.com proxypodcast to become a member. Starting at $5 a month, you'll get access to ad free episodes plus our library of 12 bonus interviews and counting. To sign up, go to patreon.com Proxypodcast okay, here's my conversation with Jonathan Adler.

[Amanda]

So I want to start with a very basic question. Why do we have a narrator in our heads? Like, what value is it serving?

[Jonathan Adler]

So a wide range of scholars, from, you know, philosophers to evolutionary biologists talk about narrative as the human adaptation. That this is the tool that evolution has shaped for us for navigating our evolutionary niche, which is a very complex niche. And it turns out that stories are a really efficient and effective tool for navigating that. Stories smooth out our experiences. They hold on to the pieces of our experiences. That are most emotionally salient to us. And so it's adaptive to be able to turn our lives into stories. That helps us hold on to the past, but also integrate the past with the present and the future. But narrative is not the only mode of human cognition. The sort of grandfather of the field of narrative psychology, Jerome Bruner, said that we have two modes of human cognition. One which he called the narrative mode, which is the mode of stories. But the other he called, very cumbersomely, the paradigmatic mode. And that's the mode of, like, rational argument. That's the mode of science, it's the mode of logic. And so we operate in that mode when we're trying to, you know, make hypotheses about the world, test guesses about how things might go. So it's not that the narrative mode is the only mode, but it tends to be a natural one, meaning one sort of programmed for us as a species.

[Amanda]

We've talked about this before, how adolescence is the moment when we're supposed to become the narrators of our lives. But for some people, that doesn't happen. I am one of those people. I have the opposite problem as Amanda. You know, so if Amanda is worri, she's not living her life authentically or living in the moment enough because she's so addicted to telling stories about her life as she's living it. I'm worried I'm not telling a coherent enough and meaningful enough story about my life because I don't have a strong narrator in my head.

[Jonathan Adler]

Well, wait, I have to ask you two follow up questions about that. Thank you for. Thank you for sharing that. So first, how old are you?

[Amanda]

I'm 37.

[Jonathan Adler]

Okay, okay. So that, that does help explain the developmental piece, but how do you then make a career out of collecting stories?

[Amanda]

So I think that the reason why I was so drawn to podcasting in the first place and long form audio documentary is because as I was listening to, you know, my gateway drug was this American Life.

[Jonathan Adler]

Like it was for all of us.

[Amanda]

Like it was for all of us. I think that, like, I'm just putting this together right now. Ye but in my earbuds, I was hearing an internal voice that was making meaning of the world for the first time. There was, like, before this American life and after this American Life for me, like, once I started listening to audio documentaries that were engaging and that, you know, really made me feel things, that was when I felt like I wanted to be curious about the world, I wanted to explore, I wanted to make meaning that's like, where my memory begins, really. Which was, like, kind of late, you know, like junior year, sophomore year of college.

[Jonathan Adler]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

I think that I am drawn to this work specifically because I don't have a strong inner narrator, because this is the primary way that I make meaning out of life in the world.

[Jonathan Adler]

Yep. And it gives you an opportunity to make that skill the content of your work without it being your story.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, as. As a host, I am now more often having to package my life, tell stories from my own life, which is useful for me, because I don't think I would be doing that if it weren't for, like, oh, this thing happened to me. It's interesting. Let me reflect on it. Let me, like, tell a story about it. How would I tell a story in, like, an entertaining way?

[Jonathan Adler]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

So, yeah, I feel. I feel very exposed.

[Jonathan Adler]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, ye.

[Amanda]

Yeah. Like, do you have any reactions or thoughts about that?

[Jonathan Adler]

Well, again, I mostly. I want to normalize it. Right. Like, if we think about there being a whole spectrum of inner narrator. So Amanda's on the higher end, and you're on the lower end. You don't have a silent inner voice, because I can't fathom how you could have the successful career that you have in storytelling without some practice doing that internally for yourself. Getting a podcast off the ground is an exercise in storytelling. Why does the world need this podcast? What's my role in bringing it into life? So there is. You're being both a narrator and a main character with respect to the very project of producing Proxy.

[Amanda]

Oh, absolutely. Because in doing press for the show, I know they're going to ask me, like, what is the show about? Why did you make it? And then, like, I have started to come up with these myths, basically, that are, like, true based in fact, but, you know, it's like, a very particular version of the story.

[Jonathan Adler]

Well, and that's what. Actually, the. The very, very early work on narrative identity in the early 80s started by talking about personal myth. The scientists really hated the word myth, and I think that's why it's gotten pushed towards narrative, but. Right. Myths are stories that convey more than just the plots. I actually think there's deep synchrony between the idea of myth and narrative.

[Yowei Shah]

Yeah.

[Amanda]

Well, I guess when I was listening to Amanda talk, I was feeling jealousy, is what I'm saying. It's because I do have friends who are more like Amanda, who are on the higher end of the spectrum with regards to the inner narrator. And I'm like, that sounds fun. That would be helpful for my job as a podcast person.

[Jonathan Adler]

But pros and cons?

[Yowei Shah]

Oh, absolutely.

[Amanda]

They complain to me like, oh, it's tiring. I would like it to stop sometimes. And we heard from Amanda all these things, anxieties and fears she has about it. But I guess my question is, once we find ourselves on one end of the spectrum, wherever we are, is it possible to change our inner narrator? Like, is it possible for someone like me to become someone like Amanda who self narrativizes constantly if I wanted to, or is this just how my brain works?

[Jonathan Adler]

Well, the short answer is we definitely don't have data to answer that question. So the scientist in me says, gosh, that would be a really interesting question to answer. And I don't know how we would do that. And certainly no one has ever done that. What I can compare it to is a different part of personality. So let me pan back a little bit. So we think of narrative identity as one of three domains of personality, and it is sort of built on these other two domains. So at the foundation, we think about our dispositional traits. In the middle, we think about our. What gets called our characteristic adaptations, our values, our goals. And then at the highest level is narrative identity. And those three domains of personality all relate to each other, but they operate somewhat differently. And the analogy that is coming to my mind in response to your question is about dispositional traits. So dispositional traits are largely genetically determined. They're fairly stable across the lifespan. These are things like our extroversion, our conscientiousness, our agreeableness, things like this. There's a typology called the Big five. So people are always asking, you know, can your traits change? People are always saying, like, well, is biology destiny when it comes to our traits? And the answer, like the answer to every question is biology destiny when it comes to is yes and no. So the current way people think about traits is the theory is drawn from what's called the set point theory of body weight, right? So you are born with a homeostatic regulatory mechanism in your brain that tries to keep your body weight within a particular range. And there are things you can do to move it up or down, but it takes pretty extreme things to move out of whatever range your brain is sort of set for. And it seems like our dispositional traits, speaking, as you know, quite generally, but that our dispositional traits operate similarly. That if you're born with a brain that's wired sort of low on conscientiousness, there are things you can do to move it up. But probably you're not going to break out of some dramatic range, Right? And those things are still worth doing. Right. If you do the diet and exercise equivalent of conscientiousness, it's going to make a huge difference in your daily life. But you also have to recognize it's never going to be totally different. So I have no idea if narrative identity operates the same way in our brains. It's not a genetically imbued thing other than the proclivity to tell stories, which does seem to be the way the human brain is structured. But the sort of amount of narrativizing, I have no idea if there's a genetic or neurobiological basis to that. But I would think if you practice, if you do the diet and exercise version, you could probably increase your narrativization. And probably no matter how much diet and exercise of self narrative you do, you're never going to be Amanda, where you can't get that voice to shut up.

[Amanda]

What would the diet and exercise version look for someone like me who's trying to self narrativize more?

[Jonathan Adler]

Well, that. That I think actually is fairly straightforward.