Is it time to break up the band?

Summary

Proxy with Yowei Shaw: Episode Summary

Title: Is it Time to Break Up the Band?
Release Date: June 3, 2025
Host: Yowei Shaw
Guests: Evan Bernard & Chris Baglivo of The Super Weeks, Ryan Dusick (Former Drummer of Maroon 5)

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Introduction: The Struggles of The Super Weeks

In this compelling episode of Proxy, Yowei Shaw delves into the intricate dynamics of a band grappling with unresolved tensions and the inability to complete their much-anticipated record. The Super Weeks, led by friends Evan Bernard and Chris Baglivo, find themselves at a crossroads, unable to reconcile personal grief with their professional aspirations.

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Background: The Rise and Tragedy of The Super Weeks

The Super Weeks' journey began with earnest DIY tours and basement shows, capturing the quintessential spirit of a burgeoning rock band. Their big break came in 2015 when they secured a major booking agent, leading to performances opening for notable bands like Brand New and Taking Back Sunday. However, their ascent was tragically halted in 2016 when Evan's younger brother, Corey Bernard, the band's bassist, died unexpectedly from cardiomyopathy at the age of 22.

Evan Bernard shares, “I didn’t really know what to do with myself. I didn’t have any real desire to do anything. You know, I’m like, okay, my little brother died. Like, where do we go from here? It just felt like a massive void.” (07:16)

Corey's death left a profound impact on the band. Without their bassist, the dynamics shifted, leading to diminished success and increasing friction between the remaining members, Evan and Chris.

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Current Conflict: Leadership and Communication Breakdown

Years after Corey's passing, The Super Weeks struggled to regain their former momentum. Chris expressed frustration over Evan's reluctance to push the band forward, highlighting issues related to leadership and communication.

Evan Bernard admits, “I’m not rushing to finish this record. […] I guess I’m kind of burned out from being the leader.” (09:12)

The underlying problem stemmed from Evan feeling overwhelmed by the responsibilities that Corey once shouldered and Chris grappling with ADHD, which affected his ability to contribute consistently to the band's organizational tasks.

Mikey Tajan, the drummer, adds, “I sort of reciprocate that as much. […] It is silly that it’s kind of dawning on me right now that I am not really giving you the reciprocity that you need...” (24:30)

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Bringing in the Proxy: Ryan Dusick's Insight

To mediate the escalating tension, Yowei Shaw introduces Ryan Dusick, the former drummer of Maroon 5, who brings his own experiences of band dynamics and personal struggles to the conversation.

Ryan Dusick recounts his departure from Maroon 5 due to a chronic nerve injury and the subsequent personal challenges he faced, including anxiety and depression. His journey to recovery and transition into therapy provided him with a unique perspective on managing band relationships and personal growth.

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Deep Dive: Addressing Grief and Leadership

The heart of the episode lies in the candid discussions between Evan, Chris, and Ryan about grief, leadership, and effective communication within a band.

Chris Baglivo reflects on grief, stating, “One day I was angry at the band. Another day I was angry at God or the universe. […] What’s one emotion that was really driving the pain, it was this feeling of my life was supposed to be something, and it’s not going to be that.” (19:31)

Ryan emphasizes the importance of system over individuals in conflicts, suggesting that clear delineation of roles and expectations can prevent resentment. He shares insights from his time in Maroon 5, highlighting how differing talents and personalities can either complement or challenge band cohesion.

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Breakthrough: Rebuilding Communication and Collaboration

After an intensive proxy conversation, Evan and Chris experience a pivotal breakthrough. They acknowledge Evan’s burnout from leadership and Chris’s struggles with organizational tasks due to ADHD. Together, they establish a structured approach to delegate responsibilities and improve communication.

Evan Bernard confesses, “I’ll just be blunt real quick. […] I could use the push. That’s really, really it.” (24:58)

With Ryan’s guidance, they develop a spreadsheet to track their progress and set concrete deadlines, leading to renewed collaboration and the nearing completion of their record.

Mikey Tajan notes, “It was revelatory, and it was that easy. And then once you get started, the momentum just kind of carries you.” (44:02)

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Conclusion: A Harmonious Future for The Super Weeks

The episode culminates with The Super Weeks successfully overcoming their internal conflicts, revitalizing their creative process, and nearing the completion of their album. Evan and Chris’s relationship strengthens as they learn to support each other’s strengths and manage their weaknesses, ensuring the band’s future remains bright.

Evan Bernard celebrates their progress, “We did have a moment… and we did. And in fact, we’ve done quite a few more. And the record is very close to being done.” (43:24)

Mikey Tajan adds, “It is extremely valid. […] It was revelatory, and it was that easy.” (44:02)

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Key Insights and Takeaways

• Grief Impacts Professional Relationships: Corey’s untimely death deeply affected The Super Weeks, highlighting how personal loss can derail professional collaborations.

• Leadership Burnout: Evan’s exhaustion from carrying the leadership role underscores the importance of shared responsibilities to prevent burnout.

• ADHD and Communication: Chris’s ADHD played a significant role in the band’s communication breakdown, emphasizing the need for understanding and accommodating mental health challenges within group settings.

• Effective Mediation: Bringing in an external mediator like Ryan can provide fresh perspectives and strategies to resolve deep-seated conflicts.

• Structured Collaboration: Implementing tools such as spreadsheets and setting clear deadlines can enhance accountability and streamline collaborative efforts.

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Notable Quotes

• Evan Bernard: “I’m not rushing to finish this record.” (09:12)
• Ryan Dusick: “It’s the system that’s the problem. […] You may be operating from the standpoint of, I’m expecting you to become like me.” (19:32)
• Chris Baglivo: “Expecting him to change is setting myself up for disappointment.” (31:06)
• Mikey Tajan: “I am often over promising because I feel like I need to relieve you of the wall to wall responsibility.” (34:46)

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Proxy masterfully captures the emotional and logistical challenges within a band, illustrating how personal struggles intertwine with professional dynamics. Through open dialogue and strategic mediation, The Super Weeks exemplify the resilience needed to overcome internal conflicts and continue creating meaningful music together.

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Follow & Support:

• Listen to The Super Weeks: Available on all streaming platforms.
• Join Proxy’s Patreon: Support emotional investigative journalism at patreon.com/ProxyPodcast.
• Subscribe to the Newsletter: Stay updated with the latest episodes and exclusive content at proxypodcast.substack.com.
• Connect on Instagram: @proxypodcast and @yoweishaw.

Transcript

[Evan Bernard]

Hello?

[Yowei Shah]

Hello, Podcast engineer.

[Chris Baglivo]

Hey. Oh, hey.

[Yowei Shah]

Jesus Christ. Oh. Did you not realize it was me?

[Evan Bernard]

No, it came up as, like, a Delaware number. I thought it was spam.

[Yowei Shah]

It's my Google voice. It's my Google voice.

[Evan Bernard]

I just. Yeah, I just sent it to voicemail because I was like, oh.

[Yowei Shah]

Oh, I thought you were trying to avoid your work duties.

[Chris Baglivo]

No, no, I was like, oh, another fucking. You put your name, you say you're.

[Evan Bernard]

Interested in, you know, solar energy and.

[Chris Baglivo]

Get sales calls for the rest of your life.

[Yowei Shah]

This is Proxy, and I'm Yowei Shah, your emotional investigative journalist. Today, the case of the bandmates who can't fit finish their record and don't know why. That's after the break.

[Marie Mejres]

Personal finance isn't just about spreadsheets and investing. It's emotional talking to your partner about money, negotiating a raise. Even the smallest decisions, like splitting a bill, can bring up feelings of shame or anxiety. I'm Marie Mejres, host of this is Uncomfortable, a podcast from Marketplace about life and how money messes with it. In this season, we get into topics like workplace drama, tough financial trade offs, and the quiet tension that builds when love and finances collide. Listen to this is Uncomfortable wherever you get your podcasts.

[Yowei Shah]

Last year, some friends of mine, Evan and Chris, they invited me to come on their podcast, this once in a while show where they mostly talk to people they've played music with in their band, the Super Weeks. And at first I was like, I don't know anything about rock music. I don't have anything to talk about. But then I thought, oh, I could use this opportunity to try to find a story, put out a call to listeners, maybe find some band drama for an episode. That would be an interesting space to explore. So on a sticky summer day, I make my way to the Jamtown recording studio in North Philadelphia. It's behind this graffiti covered door, mics and cables everywhere. Evan shows up late with halal chicken and rice for Mikey the drummer. And then we pull up a couch and seats in a circle and Evan hits record.

[Evan Bernard]

Do we need to do an opening in the podcast at all?

[Mikey Tajan]

Well, let's do an opening so people can hear.

[Yowei Shah]

But before we even get to the intros, something ridiculous happens. Mikey the drummer has a sudden realization about what we're up to.

[Chris Baglivo]

Damn, I thought this was the other way around.

[Yowei Shah]

What do you mean, I'm dumb. Wait, what do you think? I was interviewing you all.

[Evan Bernard]

I don't know why.

[Yowei Shah]

Mikey has just realized that we're there to do their podcast, not my podcast.

[Chris Baglivo]

I seriously have told so many people we're going to be on no Way's podcast.

[Yowei Shah]

Oh, my God.

[Evan Bernard]

Oh, my.

[Yowei Shah]

Have to reestablish whose podcast we're recording. We start the show.

[Evan Bernard]

Hey, you're listening to the Super Weekly super cast of Super Weeks.

[Mikey Tajan]

I'm your host, Evan, and this is Doc Chris Baglivo. Bag.

[Yowei Shah]

I make my pitch for a proxy episode about a band. I have a message for the musicians of Philadelphia, which is that. And then Evan and Chris are like, whoa, wait, we have problems. We have an emotional conundrum. And they tell me this story.

[Mikey Tajan]

It's like a relationship where you have all of the fights and none of the makeup sex.

[Evan Bernard]

Well, making the music is the makeup sex.

[Yowei Shah]

This really dramatic story I'd never heard before that really surprised me. I'd always known Evan and Chris as this inseparable duo. You know, best friends, songwriting partners, co owners of a recording studio. But the story they told me was filled with heartache and tensions that to this day hang over their relationship in a way that you'd never know if you were just hanging out with them. From now on, I'm going to just be talking to Evan and Chris because the conflict is really between the two of them. And anyway, on the day we were supposed to record, Mikey forgot he was going to see Incubus, so he couldn't make it. The story Evan and Chris told me starts with the moment their band was on the verge of blowing up.

[Evan Bernard]

Could take all damn day to cheer me up, give me up for the race and wish Good luck.

[Yowei Shah]

In 2015, things are happening for the Super Superweeks. After years of DIY tours and basement shows, the Super Weeks finally have a big deal booking agent. They're road dogging across the country in their beat up band, doing all the things that a DIY band does, making friends, smoking weed, eating shitty food.

[Evan Bernard]

You know, just quintessential dumb tour shit.

[Yowei Shah]

Here's Evan talking about his younger brother Corey, who played bass in the band.

[Evan Bernard]

Cory would be like, I'm gonna go find every 711 pizza in every city and rate the best shitty pizz. And I'm like, damn, Doc, you really are like 21 years old.

[Yowei Shah]

It's glorious. They're playing to thousands of people. These massive shows. They're opening for bands like Brand New, Taking Back Sunday and Manchester Orchestra. And they're like, all right, time for all this hard work to pay off. Maybe this is it. And then in 2016, a terrible thing happens. It's Memorial Day weekend, and Evan is trying to Reach his younger brother Corey.

[Evan Bernard]

I would text him and like, you know, Friday night, no response. Saturday morning, no response. And jokingly, you know, text him like, what are you dead? Lol.

[Yowei Shah]

Evan's brother Corey took a nap at his house and never woke up. Later they learned that Corey died of a cardiomyopathy. He had an enlarged heart that no one knew about. He was only 22. Gosh, so young.

[Chris Baglivo]

Mm.

[Yowei Shah]

That summer, Evan spends a lot of time at his parents house and drops out of his life.

[Evan Bernard]

I didn't really know what to do with myself. I didn't have any real desire to do anything. You know, I'm like, okay, my little brother died. Like, where do we go from here? It just felt like a massive void.

[Yowei Shah]

In the years after Corey's death, the band starts meeting up again. They find another bass player, they start recording. They put out some music, they play some shows. But Chris says nothing feels the way it used to. Everything is so much harder. They don't have a booking agent anymore. They aren't getting offered big shows. And Chris is frustrated. At first he wanted to give Evan space, not put pressure on him with the band. But now it's been eight years since Corey died, and Chris doesn't understand why Evan isn't pushing the band forward the way he used to. Like, they have this album, they started recording during lockdown. It's really good. It just needs some last bit of vocals from Evan. So why doesn't Evan just do them?

[Mikey Tajan]

It's more so like, hey, can we just finish this thing this weekend? And then whenever that's rebuffed because of scheduling issues, I'm just like, well, maybe I'll try later. And then I forget to try later. For some reason, we're sitting on our hands a little bit and I'm not totally sure why.

[Yowei Shah]

And Evan, he told me, you know what? I am holding things up.

[Evan Bernard]

I'm not rushing to finish this record.

[Yowei Shah]

Because now that his brother Corey is gone, there's no one to help Evan with the grunt work of having a band, contacting venues, selling merch, booking rehearsal time. And Evan doesn't want to do it by himself. In fact, Evan said that stepping back from the super weeks and supporting other musical projects has been his way of coping with frustration about the band.

[Evan Bernard]

I guess I'm kind of burned out from being the leader. I don't know exactly how Chris feels, but to me it's like, okay, there's nobody else pushing the ship. I don't have to push the ship either. Like, if somebody else really wants me to do something, they can ask me to do it.

[Yowei Shah]

Evan understands that Chris has adhd, that scheduling is not his strong suit. But even when Evan does try to wrangle band business, he says Chris is hard to get a hold of.

[Evan Bernard]

It just seems like he's like, well, you're not doing it, so why should I do it? And I'm like, well, you're not doing it, so why should I do it?

[Yowei Shah]

If you had to vocalize the sound of your niche emotional conundrum around this, what would it be?

[Evan Bernard]

The sound of it?

[Yowei Shah]

Like, what the sound is interpret as you will?

[Evan Bernard]

I don't know. I guess I would feel like it's, you know, I could do a growl like, but like, there's also silence involved.

[Mikey Tajan]

I think silence is actually a pretty effective representation of that where I feel like we're just being too quiet right now. We're not talking to each other enough about it.

[Chris Baglivo]

Is that.

[Mikey Tajan]

Is that a cop out?

[Yowei Shah]

After the break, I find a proxy for Evan and Chris to talk to to try to fill in that silence.

[Mikey Tajan]

Foreign.

[Ryan Dusick]

Hi, this is Nico calling in from Niagara Falls, Ontario, Canada. My two niche to podcast conundrum is how do I buy the perfect amount of hot dogs to match the amount of buns in the pack? But I'm glad proxy is investigating other niche emotional conundrums, which is why seven months ago, I became a member of proxy's Patreon because yoi makes this show independently and I don't want it to disappear. When you join the proxy Patreon, you get benefits like hearing episodes without ads and exclusive bonus episodes. What a bargain. Plus, you get to sleep at night knowing that you're helping make the world's first podcast for emotional investigative journalism. To become a member, go to patreon.com proxypodcast that's patreon.com proxy podcast. Can I get the super Mario Yahoo sound?

[Yowei Shah]

Yahoo. If you're new to the show, welcome. What we do on proxy is we scour the world for a stranger who has relevant experience with her guest conundrum. And you know, every proxy conversation is an experiment. The thing that's unusual in this case is that it involves two people directly in a conflict who have a lot to say to each other in addition to talking to the proxy.

[Evan Bernard]

What the fuck? Why isn't this working?

[Mikey Tajan]

You alright, Evan?

[Yowei Shah]

The day of the proxy conversation, I joined the video call with Evan and Chris and Evan is already annoyed. His mic is not connecting and it takes a while to get set up. How are you all Feeling right now, little frazzled.

[Mikey Tajan]

Yeah.

[Evan Bernard]

Would have been nice if I just walked into the recording studio with all the stuff that should work. And it worked, but lo and behold.

[Mikey Tajan]

Yeah, sorry for me giggling before, but I don't care. Okay.

[Yowei Shah]

I imagine, like, on tour, people have setbacks. There's like a million annoying things that happen. What do you all do to cheer each other up?

[Evan Bernard]

Just roll with it.

[Mikey Tajan]

Yeah, I think we all just kind of roll with it if there's a setback on stage, you know, I might just fill the dead air with a joke or two or something to kind of just give the crowd something to listen to for a second. There was a time when Evan's guitar completely cut out when we were opening for Taking Back Sunday for their Christmas show, and he just like took his guitar off, pushed his amp out of the way and did a dynamic frontman, microphone in hand. Just like one of the best performances I've ever seen him give.

[Evan Bernard]

I was thinking of the same exact instance.

[Mikey Tajan]

Yeah.

[Yowei Shah]

Are we settled?

[Evan Bernard]

Sure.

[Mikey Tajan]

Yeah, for sure.

[Yowei Shah]

So, the proxy. When I was looking for a proxy for Evan and Chris, I knew I wanted someone who'd been in a band with friends for a long time. Someone who could talk about the emotional dynamics of creative collaboration and how to navigate conflict around leadership, working style, and mental health. Someone who also knew what it's like to have your rock and roll dreams take a left turn. Which is why I got in touch with a drummer named Ryan Dusick, who happens to be the founding drummer of a little band called Maroon 5.

[Chris Baglivo]

Hello.

[Mikey Tajan]

Welcome, Ryan.

[Evan Bernard]

Hi.

[Chris Baglivo]

Nice to see you all.

[Evan Bernard]

Nice to see you as well.

[Mikey Tajan]

Same here.

[Yowei Shah]

Ryan Dusick started the band that would become Maroon 5 when he was just a kid in high school, slurping down big gulps from 711 with his friend Adam Levine. The band eventually went from recording cassette tapes in Ryan's parents garage to to having a record go quadruple platinum and beating Kanye for best new artist at the Grammys. This is the moment Ryan left the band. He developed a chronic nerve injury and couldn't play the drums anymore.

[Chris Baglivo]

I left the band at the height of our success and I went through a really dark time for about a decade trying to figure out what my life was going to be and what my identity was. I struggled with, with alcohol, with anxiety disorder, depression, until I found recovery. And that started this whole new chapter of my life. I'm now a therapist, a registered therapist with a master's degree in clinical psychology. So it's very fulfilling for me in some ways. Even more fulfilling than it was to be a pop star.

[Yowei Shah]

I asked Evan and Chris to tell Ryan what they're stuck on.

[Evan Bernard]

Well, I feel like there's probably a few different ones going on.

[Yowei Shah]

And Evan gives the backstory of the super weeks, the year they felt like they were on the cusp of something big, and how Evan's brother and their bassist, Corey, died and how the band never recovered.

[Evan Bernard]

I feel like I wasn't able to reach out and ask for help or honestly didn't know what help I needed.

[Chris Baglivo]

Well, first off, let me say I'm so sorry for your loss.

[Evan Bernard]

Thanks.

[Chris Baglivo]

There's no one right way to grieve. I think everyone goes through a different set of emotions and ways in which they attempt to cope or not. Is it okay if I just ask you a couple questions?

[Evan Bernard]

Sure.

[Chris Baglivo]

So what was your relationship with your brother like?

[Evan Bernard]

So, okay. He was my younger brother. Obviously, I loved him. I adored him. He was one of my best friends. And it's definitely difficult to not have him around for eight years now. But our family is known for being loud and bullheaded. And honestly, of everyone in the band, he was the one who probably would challenge me the most. I kind of end up with the role of de facto band leader. And he was really clutch in coming through when you needed somebody to come through. He was the one to either take it off of my shoulders or tell me that whatever I was doing was stupid and we should do it this way in the most lovingly blunt way a brother could.

[Mikey Tajan]

I want to add to that point, too, that Evan often is someone who is hard to communicate and compromise with when he has a vision for something. And so I really did value that about Corey. But that was something that we did need, and we now sorely lack, is that we don't have the next voice that stands up to follow through on something. And in so many ways, like, Corey left this hole in the way that we operated.

[Chris Baglivo]

So it sounds like Corey was not just a brother, but a friend and also played a pretty pivotal role in just the band dynamic. Without him there, you're left with this void of how do we come together in a way that's gonna be cohesive?

[Evan Bernard]

You know, once you were out of Maroon 5 and, you know, you went through those hardships, what did you go through in that time period, and how did you come out the other end?

[Chris Baglivo]

My personal grief. I didn't lose someone at that point in my life, but what I lost was really everything that was very much to the core of my identity. The Things that made me feel like I had purpose and meaning in my life. You know, I started the band when I was 16 years old, and I had really put most other sides of myself on hold during that time because the band was everything to me, and so I didn't know who I was at that point. Without that. If I had to identify one emotion that was really driving the pain, it was this feeling of my life was supposed to be something, and it's not going to be that. And so it took a long time to go through the grieving process. And you've heard of the stages of grief, I'm sure.

[Mikey Tajan]

Kubler Ross model and I think they've.

[Chris Baglivo]

Come up with a different model at this point because that sounded very linear, and it's not linear. One day I was angry at the band. Another day I was angry at God or the universe. Most of the time I was just really angry at myself. And then there was denial. If I just pretend like I'm still having a great time and I'm still a rock star and kind of just live that life and enjoy it as if I'm not in this pain and I didn't have this loss, then it'll be as if it never happened. And the bargaining, well, what if I had done this? All the what ifs, and of course, the depression of just being in so much pain and sadness over that loss. The reason why there are stages of grief and they're not linear is because what you're essentially trying to do is avoid the end result, which is acceptance. You're trying to find some way to escape really accepting the fact that this thing happened and that it's not going to change now. Losing a person, as opposed to an identity or a career that you may be grieving is different because you have the memories of that person, but that person isn't in your life. I would go to the band, to their shows. At first I'd be excited. I'd pretend like no time had passed and nothing had changed. And then it would hit me how much I'd lost and how much had changed. And so that could be triggering. And essentially where I came to was gratitude was the way through it. I was just so grateful for having had that experience. I got to live and experience things that most people don't get to experience. And I'm not even talking about the success and the Grammy Awards and the big tours and all that. What I'm talking about is that connection, is that special thing that we had and the formation and the fun part. Of starting a band which is coming together and creating something together, honing your craft and figuring out how the pieces fit together. And it sounds to me like you guys were on that track until a major piece was ripped out of the middle of that.

[Evan Bernard]

I just. I appreciate you, you know, giving some insight on that.

[Yowei Shah]

This is Evan.

[Evan Bernard]

When this band was put together, the reason the people who were in it were in it are because, you know, they were my closest friends. They still are my closest friends, and they're people that I want to spend time with. These are the people that I want to go on tour with, I want to spend my time with, I want to do these things with. We didn't even think about the band being mildly successful. All of that was kind of an accident. And the fact that we were able to do as much as we did when we did, I'm grateful for that.

[Yowei Shah]

I just want to jump in with a question for Evan and Chris. So you all recorded this record a few years ago, and there's just a few things left to do to finish the record, but it still hasn't happened. I'm curious. What do you both see as the reason for the holdup?

[Evan Bernard]

Well, I'll say me holding everything up, Part of it is going even further back to when Corey died. The band, the super weeks, was not something I, you know, felt like taking on or felt support in or felt comfortable doing even. And I kind of. I guess it still feels sore to me because now I do feel like I am once again thrust into the leadership role, where it often feels like everything falls on my shoulders for it to get completed. And instead of anyone else offering, hey, how's next week for you? Can you try to get this done by X Or, like, let's plan on something? I fall into that habit of just being like, ugh, I'll do it eventually. Like, this isn't something that I want to do right now. I don't know. It is. Yeah, you go ahead. I've just talked. It's your turn.

[Mikey Tajan]

Oh, I just want to piggyback on what you're saying, because all that is extremely valid.

[Yowei Shah]

This is Chris speaking, and I think.

[Mikey Tajan]

It'S making something clear for me about myself is that I've always felt like you were the one person who was a genuine supporter of my songwriting. And because of that, like, not being able to find support or motivation elsewhere, like, I've relied totally on you to motivate and validate me in order to keep my momentum going. And what I'm recognizing now is that Like, I'm not sort of reciprocating that as much. Like, I feel like it's such a given that you are a talented songwriter and a talented creator, and you are just like a fount of creativity and new songwriting, whereas I am very slow and meticulous when it comes to that. It is silly that it's kind of dawning on me right now that I am not really giving you the reciprocity that you need in terms of motivation and organizing.

[Evan Bernard]

I'll just be blunt real quick. Which is what I do best. Yes, I'm holding up the process. It's definitely me. Many of the songs that are left to make creative decisions on are the ones that I have written. And I know that I can be unapproachable and a curmudgeon and grumpy, but I just could. I could use the push. That's really, really it.

[Chris Baglivo]

What I've heard from a lot of other bands is that more often there's usually like, one person who's kind of the leader of the band, sometimes two people, but oftentimes one person. And there is a lot that goes unsaid for that reason, because there's one personality that kind of dominates things, and people end up sort of just becoming more submissive and then holding on to a lot of resentment that builds up over time. It sounds like for you, Evan, whether it's by force of your talent or by force of your personality, in terms of always wanting to create more, you have thrust yourself in some ways and in other ways have been thrust by others into this position of leadership, but that you're very reluctant to sort of embrace that role.

[Evan Bernard]

Very Jerry Garcia type. Yes. No, that was a joke. But, yeah, I recognize that.

[Chris Baglivo]

What I'm curious about is just the reluctance to take a leadership role and where that comes from. Maybe the work that you do gives you clarity that, yeah, that is not the role I want. I need somebody else to take that role. I just want to be creative. And we're going to have to figure out who's going to fill that role, and it's going to be clear what the expectations are in that regard. Or it could be that you discover some things about yourself as to why there is that reluctance.

[Evan Bernard]

Well, for me right now, currently, my expectation with everyone in the group is that I'm the one who's going to do it in the end. And I've been told that I've conditioned everyone, that they're just expect me to do it. So I'm not necessarily reluctant to Be the leader. I'm happy to be the leader. I'm just tired of being the leader.

[Chris Baglivo]

Being a leader doesn't mean doing everything yourself. It means being able and willing to delegate.

[Evan Bernard]

Well, here's the thing, is that in the history, every time I had delegated anything, I would end up doing it. If I asked somebody else to take care of merchandise, I'd get an email three weeks later like, why haven't I received my package yet? And I would be like, hey, did you ship this package? And you'd be like, oh, crap, I didn't ship that yet. And so it's just the majority of times that things have been delegated, it has fallen back on me. And so my expectation has become, I can't expect anybody to be able to take care of anything.

[Mikey Tajan]

Yeah.

[Yowei Shah]

Ryan, this issue of communication, you know, reciprocating, pushing each other forward, did that always work well in Maroon 5?

[Chris Baglivo]

Well, in my band, yeah. I mean, I think there was a natural push and pull that was really conducive to productivity. Adam was very creative, but he was not capable of sitting down and seeing a project through. He just didn't have that kind of focus or organizational skill. And I didn't have his talent, and I didn't have his ability to create as prolifically. So because of Adam's adhd, oftentimes it was like, if things were working, it would get done. If something wasn't working, he was onto the next thing. It was very hard to get him to come back to something that we ran into a roadblock with. He was like, ah, that wasn't working. Let's do something else. And I'd be like, that was an awesome riff. Well, we're just going to throw that away and move on to something else. And he was like, yeah, it was cool. Whatever. Let's write something better.

[Yowei Shah]

Did you and Adam ever talk about that as a band?

[Chris Baglivo]

Well, we discovered that there were different talents amongst the different members, and it was an organic process in terms of how that evolved, like, who's gonna do what? And I think for me, finding my role was very much a humbling process. Cause early on, being the type A personality, like, I wanted to be the leader. I was the oldest guy in the band. I was 16. I had a car, a hand me down Jeep Wagoneer that was falling apart.

[Evan Bernard]

Cool.

[Chris Baglivo]

And all the guys would jump in the back of my car. I had all the gear. I was the one doing the mailing list. I got the little Tascam 4 track cassette recorder to make our first demo, I was Mr. Proactive. I was also writing a lot of the music early on because I had a bass guitar, and I was writing just sort of, like, heavy riffs. That was the kind of band I wanted to start.

[Evan Bernard]

Cool.

[Chris Baglivo]

It was like Tool and Soundgarden and Rage against the Machine.

[Evan Bernard]

Oh, yeah.

[Mikey Tajan]

Oh, yeah. You're talking to the right guys.

[Chris Baglivo]

But, like, a year into it, it started to become clear to me that Adam and Jesse had this melodic sensibility. And it's gonna be a more poppy band because Adam and Jesse have that skill set. And it was a place of humility and swallowing my pride and recognizing, like, I can be the facilitator. I can be the one that makes sure we get stuff done, But I'm not going to be able to compete as the creative force. The best I can do is be part of the arrangement team, you know, coming up with the rhythm section parts and working together as a team. In that regard, I'm a supporting role. I'm not the one writing the melody and lyrics. I think I needed to accept at a certain point that my role in this band was going to be consistent with my skill set, and that was unique within the band, what the band needed to operate.

[Yowei Shah]

We'll pick up on Ryan's thought after the break. Welcome back to the show. So Ryan had just explained how in Maroon 5, it took him a process of years to recognize he had a very specific role in the band, that he wasn't the leader. But the problem was, even if Ryan could recognize his limited role, he couldn't let go of how much his bandmate annoyed him. The frontman of Maroon 5, Adam Levine.

[Chris Baglivo]

I think I realized at that point, like, my frustrations with Adam had a lot not just to do with him and his flightiness. It had to do with me and the extent to which I allowed that to be a problem for me, because I was expecting things of him that he was not capable of delivering. And I was taking it personally that he was not meeting me where I wanted him to meet me, because he's somebody that from day one, you can't necessarily predict what's going to happen day to day or even minute to minute. We'd have a plan, and it would change. And for me, that was maddening to no end. But I kept expecting that to change. I kept expecting him to show up one day being fully considerate of my needs and being somebody that needed structure and needed things to be a certain way, and he kept disappointing me. And so I was getting more and more resentful until I realized, like, I'm doing this to myself. I'm expecting something that's not going to happen. And expectations are just resentments in the making. Right?

[Mikey Tajan]

Mm. Yeah. This has been very directly enlightening about the nature of where our strengths are and how we both have expectations that when we're tired of utilizing our particular strengths, I was like, well, you should take over for me because I've, I've been doing it this whole time.

[Yowei Shah]

This is Chris speaking.

[Mikey Tajan]

Whereas, like, I know for me it's something I had to learn more as an adult, like, being. Cause I wasn't diagnosed with ADHD until I was an adult to have an understanding of, like, oh, I'm not organized. Like, I'm not good at following up on emails in a way that's like, pretty detrimental to the career path even outside of the band. Like, as a producer and independent, like audio engineer. And often I want to do these things for the group, but I couldn't understand why I would so consistently fail at doing them before.

[Evan Bernard]

And even though receiving your ADHD diagnosis has unlocked so many things about your personality that I'm like, oh, I understand. Needless to say, I definitely still get frustrated when I text you. And like, I get a text two days later and you're like, oh, shit, I forgot to text you. And I'm just like, oh, my God, I was just asking the question.

[Mikey Tajan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Evan Bernard]

Honestly, the big thing for me in this conversation, Chris, I never understood why you don't book practices or book jams or any of that stuff. It always ends up falling back on me. It's something that I never really understood because this is something you love to do. So I've just always been a bit baffled why you're not chomping at the bit to be like, yeah, let's get in a room and fricking jam. Because that's fun.

[Mikey Tajan]

No, I hear you entirely. And I think it is the particular cocktail of who I am, the ADHD combined with the anxiety, combined with the self flagellation, it makes it difficult to follow through in the first place. Easy to punish myself for not following through when I was supposed to and then being uncommunicative about it because I'm afraid of what the blowback is going to be from failing at something that is otherwise so simple for somebody else. And I honestly, at this point, I, I, if I'm just being honest with myself, I'm not ready to be relied on for those sorts of things just yet. But I want you to know that I am 100% all in. Whenever we can rehearse. Even if it's. There's something else in my schedule, if I can move it, I move it.

[Evan Bernard]

Yeah, I don't, I'm sorry that you feel, you know, that I put pressure on you or something in that way. I don't want you to feel bad about it.

[Mikey Tajan]

I want to clarify it's me doing it to myself.

[Evan Bernard]

I know, I know.

[Mikey Tajan]

Yeah. I don't feel like you're putting an undue amount of pressure on me. I feel like I am often over promising because I feel like I need to relieve you of the wall to wall responsibility that you have. And then I have all the best intentions and all of the worst follow through and it's disheartening to myself and like I feel so bad that I've done this to you. So, yeah, it's its own sort of multi layered, inward facing rage there.

[Evan Bernard]

I appreciate that. But I feel like you don't have to worry about doing it to me or anything like that. I hope that there's some way it won't bum you out about it because something that was always interesting to me about you is for a long time your response to everything would be, you're right, I fucking suck. I suck. And like that would be just like me, me trying to have a conversation and be like, hey dude, could you like try? And you'd be like, I fucking suck. I'm a piece of shit I can't even believe. And you kind of saying all that stuff, I'm like, oh, that was just you projecting outward what you were feeling inward. Whereas to me I thought you, it was like another one of your bits.

[Mikey Tajan]

I do a lot of bits. That's fair.

[Yowei Shah]

I find it interesting to think about dealing with personal issues like ADHD in the context of a band because as we know, personal issues can really affect a group. And so Ryan, I'm wondering if you can relate to what Chris and Evan are talking about in terms of your own personal struggle with losing the ability to play drums.

[Chris Baglivo]

Well, one of my biggest regrets is just not reaching out for help more. At the time I just figured that they wouldn't understand and that I needed to just figure this out for myself and figure out a way to get through it. I mean, they would like sort of notice as my drumming was suffering and point out like what happened there, why did you miss that beat? But they were more expressing it kind of with curiosity and concern and I wasn't really willing or able to open up and talk about it. Vulnerably at that point. And maybe it wouldn't have made a big difference in terms of what I was dealing with, but at least I would have had an outlet, feeling that I wasn't alone. If I were running a record label today, I would insist that every band that I signed to my label had a therapist before they go on the road. Because I work with couples a lot. So often you see people come into the therapy room and you see a lot of love and a lot of frustration. They're just pointing fingers at each other like, well, you always do this and you always do that. He's the problem, she's the problem. And the reality is neither person is the problem. It's the system that's the problem. Right. It's the fact that you haven't clearly delineated how this system's going to function in the healthiest way. And oftentimes the differences that people have in a relationship that cause conflict are the things that drew you together in the first place. Opposites attract, and it can be complimentary, and those things can grate on you because it's so foreign to you and it's so opposite from the way that you function. But that's because you may be operating from the standpoint of, I'm expecting you to become like me, as opposed to, what does this person bring to the table that actually helps me, and can I utilize that without expecting the other things that might not be their strong suits to change? I'm also very grateful. You know, we started our band when we were so young, and we got our first record deal, like, right out of high school. And I think that because of that, we had to confront certain things earlier in the process than a lot of bands do. A lot of bands, they have success, and then all of a sudden, they have to have conversations about money and about who's getting credit for things. We had had those conversations. We had a band agreement when we were, like, 18 years old. We made a contract with each other in terms of what our expectations were of each other, and we worked out.

[Yowei Shah]

Wait, wait, wait a minute. You had a band agreement?

[Chris Baglivo]

Yeah, yeah.

[Yowei Shah]

At age 18. Whose idea was it to make a band agreement? And what is this band agreement? Is this normal? Chris and Evan? Is this something that bands do?

[Mikey Tajan]

No, we did not have contract discussions at age 16, so I would recommend it.

[Chris Baglivo]

I think you save yourself so much down the line because if you wait until the going gets rough, it's going to be too late.

[Yowei Shah]

I think this is a literal contract.

[Chris Baglivo]

A legal Band agreement. Yeah. This was, like, you own 10% of this song. And, like, if somebody were to leave the band, what is the expectation in terms of that process? It's a prenup.

[Evan Bernard]

I don't know if we need that necessarily, but I'd love to sit down with everyone and delegate roles. It's not like we got money rolling in. You know what I'm saying? But sure, I. I do think, Ryan, everything you just said is, like, incredibly wise, and you brought up so many very good points, and we definitely should sit down and be like, all right, how do we want to just, like, handle existing as a band and, like, where do we want to go from here and how do we want to do this? Because clearly, it's not working the way that is functioning currently. Yeah.

[Mikey Tajan]

And that's surprisingly well, I guess you do speak in absolutes a little bit, but I'm surprised that you're saying it's not functioning. That feels like a pretty absolute statement. So I would want to explore that more with you too, because it is certainly functioning differently than it used to, but I don't view it as being totally malfunctioning at this point. So I think being able to talk about that and also talk about what our capacities are in terms of what we can bring to the band and also just to kind of talk about the things that we like about each other in the band and, like, about being, you know, around each other as people, I think is a valid thing that we don't really discuss as, like, adult men. And that is a huge draw of continuing to be in this band at this point and doing this thing together, because it's all people that I love very deeply, and I feel like we create something that I'm proud of every time that we create something together. So maybe even like, defining what our goals are or maybe even defining what the lack thereof, and it just being something that we enjoy continuing to do as a possibility. But regardless of the specifics, I think very much just having that clarity of a discussion is the best possible thing.

[Chris Baglivo]

Agreed.

[Yowei Shah]

On that note, thank you, Ryan, so much for being our proxy. Yeah. Thanks, everybody.

[Evan Bernard]

Yeah. Thank you, Ryan.

[Mikey Tajan]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Chris Baglivo]

Thank you all.

[Yowei Shah]

A couple months after the proxy conversation, I called Evan and Chris to follow up. Evan explained there has been months more of stalemate. No movement on the record, no Chris spearheading rehearsals. But then they had a little breakthrough.

[Evan Bernard]

We did have a moment at rehearsal a month ago or so where he made another passing comment about how I am still dragging my feet on doing this.

[Chris Baglivo]

And.

[Evan Bernard]

And I said, chris, I really just need you to book time. And he's like, well, I'm free whenever. And I'm like, pick a day. And he's like, any day works for me. And I'm like, no, Chris, I need you to say, like, 5pm Tuesday, December 6th. And he's like, well, I'm good whenever. I'm waiting for you to do that. And I'm like, I just need you to pitch me days. I'm not gonna look at my calendar and be like, this is the most important thing I have to do right now. I'm gonna look at my calendar and be like, oh, my God, I'm so overwhelmed with the amount of shit I have to do. I'm going to pick a million things to do over than working on the thing that I actually want to do because I feel obligated to do so many things. So what I'm essentially asking is, if, Chris, you can make this into an obligation for me, something that I have agreed to do, then I'll do it. And so he did, and we did.

[Yowei Shah]

Oh, so you picked a day for you to finish the vocals?

[Evan Bernard]

We did. And in fact, from then, we've done quite a few more. And the record is very close to being done. Now at this point, we have a little spreadsheet we made.

[Yowei Shah]

Who made the spreadsheet?

[Evan Bernard]

Well, I did, but we did it together.

[Yowei Shah]

Wow. This is like a true podcast miracle.

[Mikey Tajan]

I know this seems like the most simple scheduling scenario to anybody else in the universe.

[Yowei Shah]

Here's Chris.

[Mikey Tajan]

But because we had such a long established kind of mutual functioning where we just, like, weren't clear about what we needed to happen, it was revelatory, and it was that easy. And then once you get started, the momentum just kind of carries you.

[Yowei Shah]

And so after four years of stalling on the record, Chris and Evan found themselves in the tiny trapezoidal control room of their studio, shoulder to shoulder, banging their heads, having fun, fun again.

[Mikey Tajan]

The one thing we keep saying back and forth to each other, too, is just like, man, these songs are sick. Because it's, you know, four years ago now. It's like, oh, the guy who wrote this, like, really was on to something. This is. This is some good stuff.

[Yowei Shah]

Were you all literally giving each other compliments?

[Mikey Tajan]

We're just like, this song's sick. That part's sick. This is really sick. I love that guitar part. That solo is sick. And, I don't know, just getting to kind of pat ourselves on the back and also just be present. It feels really good. I have my one and only but I still have you.

[Yowei Shah]

Thank you to Evan Bernard and Chris Baglivo for being up for this experiment and to the Superweeks for letting us use so much of their music in this episode. That's Mikey Tajan, Andrew Wilson, Andy Black Jarrett, Nathan Oliver Vignoner, Mike Bell, and of course Corey Bernard. Speaking of the Superweeks, Evan and Chris did get around to finishing their record. You're listening to one of the new songs called Mr. Blindside. You can listen to all their records and their podcast, the Superweek Super Weekly Supercast on all streaming platforms. And thank you to Ryan Dusick for being our Proxy today. Ryan has a memoir and podcast called Harder to Breathe. By the way, I found Ryan through something called the Music Industry Therapist Collective. You can find those links in our show notes. We'll be back with a new episode on Tuesday, June 17. New episodes every other Tuesday for the rest of the year. This episode was edited by Tim Howard and John Delore, produced by me and mixed by Kyle Pulley. Proxy is also produced by Kim Nadervane Peterse with help from Anna Karan, Santana and Nick LeBlanc. Our newsletter editor is Juliana Feliciana Reyes. Music in this episode by Tim Howard and Ferrari. Theme music by Breakmaster Cylinder. Special thanks to Abby Wendle, Bryant Pooley, Dan Popkoff, Emmanuel Joe Chi, Ethan Brooks, James Kim James Marcus, Julian Klepper, Julie Shapiro, Callie Anderson, Lisa Chasen and Mathilde Ervolino. As always, you can follow us on Instagram Proxy Podcast and I'm Ohayshaw. We also have a free newsletter. We'll have those links in our show notes. Proxy is a proud member of Radiotopia from prx, a network of independent creator owned by listener supported podcasts. Discover audio with vision at Radiotopia fm. Radiotopia's executive producer is Audrey Martovich and Yuri Lozorto is director of network operations. Speaking of independent, Proxy depends on listener support. Listeners like Proxy fan Francis Sepia Way so what's your favorite snack these days? I really like putting butter on crackers. Is there a particular kind of cracker? Yes, I don't have it on me, but it's like a water cracker. Not as sad as a saltine, but the distance can't be great. So Francis, how many buttered crackers is an episode of Prexi worth to you? At least 100. Okay, so we did the math and for two sticks of Kerrygold Irish butter and five boxes of Wellington traditional crackers because only the best for frances that's about $38. They're willing to pay for just one episode, but you can spend even less than Francis to support proxy. For just $5 a month, you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus interviews. If you want to support emotional investigative journalism and help bring greater understanding to the feelings that shape us all, consider becoming a Patreon member. We need to get to 3,000 Patreon members to keep making the show and as of this recording, we are at 360. I am so grateful to everyone who's become a member. Truly, thank you so much. You are keeping the show going. Can we get some applause for everyone? Sign [e-mail] ProxyPodcast that's patreon.com ProxyPodcast this month, for your exclusive Patreon episode, you'll hear my interview with sounding drummer of Maroon 5 turned therapist Ryan Dusick. We talk about how every band needs a band daddy, what he would have done differently to try to avoid the injuries that led to him not being able to play drums, and how he navigated a power struggle with Adam Levine. We're going to give you a little preview right now. To listen to the full Shebang, go to patreon.com ProxyPodcast to become a member. Thanks, everybody. That heart to heart conversation you had with Adam, it feels like a. It was really important for Adam to be honest, to basically state his desires even though he knew they were not your desires. And then for you and for him to be self aware enough about what's going on. Adam to be self aware enough to notice this chemistry you have in arrangements, not just letting his ego and his frustration with you about like, oh, he's butting in on my songwriting. I'm the leader here. And then from your end, to be self aware about the fact that they are the songwriters and that actually they have more strengths there than you do. And I think that can be really hard for anyone to be honest with themselves and other people about what they want and what their strengths and weaknesses are.

[Chris Baglivo]

Yeah. And I think if I'm remembering it correctly and Adam might remember it differently, but I think I approached him and I called the meeting and I was just gonna be frank with him. Here are my frustrations. Here's what I would like to see. And I need to hear how you respond to this. I need to know where you stand. And then he responded in kind and was very frank with me and was honest and no, he wasn't an asshole about it. He was clear and. And straightforward. And it Was easier to hear him say it straightforward to me than to, you know, just the passive aggressive lack of communication. Just like being resentful and grumbling for it to be on the table. It really went a long way in terms of the band dynamic and our personal relationship. You know, I had been frustrated also, just personally, because Adam, the things that had frustrated me as a teenager, as he grew into a young man and as I grew into a young man, he grew into himself in a lot of ways and became much more confident. He went from kind of a freckled faced 14 year old to kind of a cocky, swaggering, 18, 19 year old kid, boy, man, whatever. But that was something that was necessary for him to do, both in terms of his growth as a young man, but also as the frontman of a band. He had to come into his own and start to have that confidence to be able to sell this thing. However, I was not a cocky, swaggering young man. I had an ego in my own right in a different respect. And so I was just kind of frustrated with his attitude. You know, just him kind of walking around acting like he owned the place.

[Yowei Shah]

What's an example?

[Chris Baglivo]

Well, I don't want to be too explicit. It's just the kind of thing where Adam was like, you know, at that age, our social lives were blossoming and he was always the center of attention, you know, because he's very charming. And like I had a group of friends at UCLA that I was kind of becoming the center of this circle. And then I of course invited him into this circle and he became the center. Cause he wanted to monopolize all the attention. People were drawn to him and there's a reason why he's a lead singer and he's a great performer. He has a natural charisma and people are drawn to him. So some of that might have just been my own jealousy, my issues more than his, but it was also he would just kind of behave just a little entitled. Like he assumed everyone would cater to him. In retrospect, they're small things. You know, it was like, we're going out to this, this club tonight. And then at the last minute, no, we're going to this other club. And I'm like, what the fuck? And.

[Yowei Shah]

And it was like, that is annoying. That is annoying.

[Chris Baglivo]

Yeah. So I would just get really angry and resentful of that. What happened for me, that was a shift was I came to realization, like, Adam has his faults and he has his strengths just like everyone else. You could say a lot of Things about me, about how defensive I could be, how stubborn I could be. My ego could be wounded easily as well. But what was causing problems more than his issues, whatever they were, was the fact that I was not accepting him for his complete self. I don't know how I had the emotional maturity at that age to recognize that, but I realized that I was the maker of my own misery to a certain extent, because I was expecting him to be things that he was not. And then he would disappoint me, and then I would just hold onto this resentment, which was eating away at me. And so I had to come to this realization, which was like, look, expecting him to change is setting myself up for disappointment. So am I either going to accept him for what he is? Strengths and challenges, because the strengths and the things I like about them are great enough that it's worth it, or the other answer, which is acceptable, too, is to recognize this is not workable for me. It's only going to be frustrating and have to come to a decision, well, then why am I doing this? I need to move on. And when I really asked myself that question, the only answer I could come up with was, I'm not walking away from this. And once I did that, and once he understood where I stood, our personal relationship improved drastically. It was kind of like a renaissance in our relationship. It was almost like the beginning again, being excited to see each other again, not just rolling our eyes at each other. You know, like another battle. You know, it was like, oh, let's get together. Let's do something. Let's have band practice and write a new song, and then let's go and go out to the clubs and party and have fun. And so it was kind of like I recognized, like, we're part of a team. I'm sure that we annoy each other on a lot of levels. We know that. But there's something special here, and let's just focus on that.

[Yowei Shah]

I want to talk more about disagreement and conflict. In your memoir, Harder to Breathe, you write about a later bandmate joining and being impressed with how you all handle disagreements. I'm going to quote from the book real quick. So you say we could argue about almost anything, but we would always resolve our disagreements and make peace before the day was done. Just like a healthy married couple, only there were five of us. James, this is the bandmate, had never seen that lack of dysfunction in a band before. He said that most guys in bands just hold on to hidden resentments for years. That is kind of amazing. When I read that part I underlined and circled many times. What was he seeing that was so healthy? What were you even doing? Because I think that could be really instructive for anyone in a band or not.

[Chris Baglivo]

So.

[Mikey Tajan]

Radiotopia.

[Yowei Shah]

From prx.