JC's Kids Won't Talk To Her

Summary

Proxy with Yowei Shaw — "JC's Kids Won't Talk To Her"

Release Date: September 23, 2025
Host: Yowei Shaw | Reporter: Kim Nadervane Petersa
Guests: Chess Dugas (YouTuber, estranged adult child), JC (anonymous estranged parent), Dr. Josh Coleman (estrangement therapist)

---

Episode Overview

This episode of Proxy dives deeply into the emotionally fraught terrain of family estrangement, focusing specifically on the painful phenomenon of adult children cutting off contact with their parents. Host Yowei Shaw, with reporter Kim Nadervane Petersa, brings together Chess Dugas, a YouTuber who has estranged herself from her parents, and JC, a parent whose children have cut her off, for a facilitated conversation seeking mutual understanding. Their candid, raw exchange (mediated by therapist Josh Coleman) highlights the roles of misunderstanding, unmet emotional needs, and the ambiguous, shifting nature of estrangement. The episode also explores how connecting with "proxies"—people with shared but opposing experiences—can help illuminate and shift deeply entrenched patterns.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Estrangement in the Zeitgeist

• Approximately 1 in 10 people in the US have experienced parent–child estrangement.
• Support communities for both estranged children and parents exist online but rarely interact directly.
• The episode aims to bridge this divide via facilitated dialogue.

[08:02] Yowei Shaw: "I'm talking about estrangement, specifically kids cutting off their parents. In the US, estrangement is actually quite common. About 1 in 10 people are estranged from either a parent or child."

---

2. JC's Story: A Parent’s Pain and Confusion

• JC describes her earnest desire to parent well after coming from a traumatic background, but her children have cut off contact for reasons she finds unclear.
• Recounts repeated but unsuccessful attempts at reconciliation, including mediation and years of trying to address concerns.

[12:02] JC: "You know, I would want to ask them now...please tell me again, because maybe I didn't hear clearly enough the first time. And I think if a reconciliation were ever possible, that’s what I would look toward as I would want to know more."

---

3. Chess’s Story: The Adult Child’s Perspective

• Chess grew up lacking emotional warmth, feeling unwanted and always criticized.
• After setting boundaries and uncovering deeper family issues, any efforts to communicate her pain were dismissed or ignored, leading to estrangement.
• She describes feeling responsible for her mother's happiness, a burden she could not carry.

[23:42] Chess Dugas: "I don’t have any memories that they actually really, to be honest, that they like me...it all seems to be about this is what families do and these are our roles."

[18:00] Chess Dugas: "I feel like I hold my mom's, like, happiness in my hands, and I don't want that. I can't divorce them. How do I get...how do I stop this?"

---

4. Mutual Misunderstanding and the Need to Be Heard

• Both JC and Chess express pain at not being understood: JC by her children; Chess by her parents.
• JC tries to articulate how difficult it is to let go, even respecting boundaries requested by her kids.

[28:10] JC: "It was just a way to have a little bit of contact while I gave up all the other contact that they wanted me to give up. And so I think the excruciating part is this last filament of connection is no longer viable."

• Chess explains how gifts and cards from her mother feel like violations of her boundaries, not acts of love.

[28:59] Chess Dugas: "I’ve never felt that sincerity from her, ever...Am I somehow flawed? Am I this cold, robotic, evil person that can’t see her love?...But also, I hate getting gifts, full stop."

---

5. What Would it Take for Reconciliation?

• The conversation delves into the specifics of what acknowledgment or change might make reconciliation possible, such as true listening or explicit validation.

[31:07] JC: "If your mother sent you a letter and said, ‘I realize I don’t know you at all, please tell me anything you want me to know about you or your life or your values, I will just listen...’ Would that be helpful?"

[31:28] Chess Dugas: "Yeah, that would be helpful. Totally."

---

6. Therapeutic Reflection and Roleplay

• Dr. Josh Coleman reframes the issue of obligation, arguing that neither party "owes" a continued relationship, but they do owe one another due diligence and honest attempts at communication.

[33:09] Josh Coleman: "I don’t think either parents or adult children owe the other a relationship. I do think that both sides owe the other a kind of due diligence...But I don’t feel that adult children are obligated to keep trying no matter what..."

• A deeply emotional roleplay session has Chess and JC, each playing the other's estranged relative, voicing honesty, regret, and longing for validation.

[42:28] JC (as Chess’s mom): "I am hearing maybe for the first time how very sad this has made you. And I’m so sorry that I missed such major pieces of being a good mom to you."

[43:11] Chess Dugas: "That was lovely, actually. That was really lovely...if I'd ever been able to hear anything like that throughout my childhood...maybe even now, it would make so much difference."

---

7. The Fluidity of Estrangement and Reaching for Peace

• Both participants acknowledge estrangement as a sometimes fluid, evolving process—not always as final as it feels.
• Chess expresses a new confidence: she can reach out on her own terms, knowing she’ll be okay whatever the response.

[48:25] Chess Dugas: "I feel like estrangement is a fluid thing. I really do...for me, it's just where I'm at right now."

[59:46] Chess Dugas: "Yeah, me taking that power back, taking that strength back and saying, actually this is my perspective. And yeah, I understand that we all have...everyone has their own. But at some point, if we’re going to go anywhere, then we have to acknowledge at least each other's perspectives on things."

---

8. Impact and Aftermath: New Openings

• The conversation inspired Chess to make a shift in her YouTube channel, inviting estranged parents into the discussion for the first time—a move met with controversy but also hope.

[54:10] Chess Dugas: "I can see that it happens both ways...There's a big spectrum in the estrangement world."

• For JC, the encounter gave her “a flicker of hope” and helped her look outward, supporting others in need of a parental figure.
• Chess decides to finally reach out to her parents—but this time on her own terms, demanding that her perspective be acknowledged.

[56:45] Chess Dugas: "Afterwards, I did end up writing to my parents...I did write to my mom and just say, okay, I really do want this to be constructive. I’m not trying to, you know, be antagonistic...if you want to move forward, we really need to address these big things that I brought up..."

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On emotional ambiguity:

  [20:29] Kim Nadervane Petersa: “Sometimes that can mean sitting with some ambiguity, and that will definitely be the case here. All right, back to Chess…”

• On the unique pain of estrangement:

  [22:56] Chess Dugas: “But there was no emotional comfort that I ever remember. The emotions that I remember feeling as a child were fear and being wrong and being criticized and being judged and being, being unwanted...”

• On the futility of obligatory love:

  [36:06] JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent): "I don't really want people to love me because they're obligated. I really aspire to relationships that are different than that..."

• On the experience of validation through role-play:

  [43:11] Chess Dugas: "That was lovely, actually...I think if I'd ever been able to hear anything like that throughout my childhood or at any time, maybe even now, it would make so much difference."

• On the hope for fluidity and possible change:

  [48:25] Chess Dugas: "I feel like estrangement is a fluid thing...for me, it's just where I'm at right now."

---

Important Timestamps

• 08:00 — Yowei Shaw introduces the problem of parent–child estrangement and sets the stage.
• 12:00–15:00 — JC explains her story and her children’s estrangement.
• 18:00–24:00 — Chess shares her experience of emotional neglect and eventual estrangement from her parents.
• 28:00–30:00 — Chess and JC discuss the meaning and impact of boundaries and gift-giving.
• 31:00–34:00 — What could create the possibility of reconciliation? Exploring what would feel sincere.
• 39:30–43:50 — Deep roleplay between Chess and JC, each voicing what they need to hear.
• 50:52–54:10 — Aftermath: Chess discusses her own feelings after the experience and changes to her channel.
• 56:45–58:28 — Chess describes her decision to reach out to her parents, motivated by new confidence.
• 59:32–59:46 — Chess shares how her parents now hold less power over her.

---

Takeaways

• Estrangement is deeply complex and highly individual, filled with pain, ambiguity, and the longing to be seen.
• Acknowledging another’s pain without defensiveness is often more healing than attempts to fix or explain.
• For both estranged parents and adult children, it is possible to find support and meaning outside of reconciliation—even as hope for change remains.
• The willingness to hear and validate perspectives without demanding contact, and to live with uncertainty, can be acts of courage and self-respect on both sides.

---

[43:11] Chess Dugas: "That was lovely, actually. That was really lovely...I don't know if I ever will hear that from my mom. But it was lovely to hear that from you."

If you or someone you know is struggling with estrangement or family cut-off, this episode offers nuanced insight into the pain—and possibilities—of rebuilding understanding, even if reconciliation never comes.

---

Transcript

[Kyle Pulley]

Hello.

[Yowei Shaw]

Hello, Bedraggle Podcast spouse.

[Charlie Klein]

Hey.

[Yowei Shaw]

So, Kyle, you demanded to be present for this quick campaign update.

[Kyle Pulley]

Well, yeah, I mean, it's been like eight episodes and I. You haven't let me be on it. Which, can I just say, is bullshit.

[Yowei Shaw]

I thought you would not mind because you're always complaining about me making you work too much on proxy.

[Chess Dugas]

I. I know.

[Kyle Pulley]

Well, I don't know.

[Charlie Klein]

I just thought.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

I thought it was cool.

[Yowei Shaw]

You like a little the celebrity? You want some airtime?

[Kyle Pulley]

Yeah.

[Yowei Shaw]

Do you want to introduce yourself to listeners who don't know you?

[Kyle Pulley]

I'm Kyle Pulley. I'm the indentured engineer. I mix Proxy for free.

[Chess Dugas]

Right.

[Kyle Pulley]

For the love and gratitude of my.

[Yowei Shaw]

Partner and for the good of the world.

[Kyle Pulley]

And for the good of the world.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, so last episode, we launched a campaign to get to 1500 paying Patreon members by. By October 9th to cover the cost of making a year two of proxy. Kyle, because it gives me too much anxiety to look at the Patreon numbers. Can you tell me where we're at?

[Kyle Pulley]

Yeah, I checked this morning and it looks like we have 560 paying members.

[Chess Dugas]

Fuck you.

[Yowei Shaw]

That's awesome. That means we got 160 signups.

[Kyle Pulley]

Yeah, 160 in the last two weeks.

[Yowei Shaw]

Thank you to everyone who took a break from washing dishes, to everyone who was on their commute. And remember to sign up once you're out of the car because I know.

[Kyle Pulley]

So many people listen to this stuff while they're doing something else.

[Yowei Shaw]

Even if you're not able to financially support us right now, we totally get it. We love you. Thank you for listening to the show. Thank you for writing in. Thank you for telling other people about proxy. It means the world to us. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

[Kyle Pulley]

You guys are fucking sick.

[Yowei Shaw]

But that is not all. We have another exciting update. Drum roll.

[Kyle Pulley]

Da da da da da da da. I don't know. That's hard to do. Hard to do with your mouth.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, so a generous listener has offered to give us $25,000 if we reach our goal of 1,500 paying Patreon members by October 9th, which is unreal. How much did I scream when I found out?

[Kyle Pulley]

I was alarmed. I thought something was wrong.

[Yowei Shaw]

I apologize for that. I was so excited. That means more part time production help. That means more episodes. That means more support to do ambitious projects like Today's Story, which I was only able to take on with another producer. Is that too much recipe?

[Kyle Pulley]

I think so, yeah. You've been recipeing it.

[Chess Dugas]

Up.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, if you join our patreon starting at $5 a month at patreon.com proxypodcast the first plate of brownies is. You will get to hear a year two of Proxy Emotions rule our world. We need to rigorously report on them. If Proxy has helped you feel less alone, made you laugh, cry, helped you move through the world a little lighter with a little less confusion, that is the delicious gooey plate of brownies you'll get to keep eating if you sign up.

[Charlie Klein]

Mmm.

[Kyle Pulley]

Brownies.

[Yowei Shaw]

Second plate of brownies. Patreon members get exclusive premium episodes and ad free episodes from the main feed. Plus you can join our chat, which is very fun. Kyle has a corner there.

[Kyle Pulley]

Come on down to Kyle's corner.

[Yowei Shaw]

He likes to post BTs there. Oh yeah, third brownie. Anyone who has an annual membership by October 9th will get an original magnet made by me.

[Chess Dugas]

Which is.

[Yowei Shaw]

Which I realize might not seem like a huge benefit. If you're not aware of my magnets.

[Kyle Pulley]

I gotta say that for someone who works mainly in the audio medium that I was surprised by your creativity in making these magnets. They're all a little esoteric and weird and you make them for friends and for family. They're usually inside jokes. And yeah, I'm sure you're gonna cook up something super sick.

[Yowei Shaw]

So if the show means something to you, if you've been meaning to join the Patreon and now is a good time to make it really count, help us reach 1500 paying Patreon members so we can get more cash. An additional 25k from a generous listener so we can make year two. Just go to patreon.com proxypodcast that's patreon.com.

[Kyle Pulley]

Proxypodcast yeah, if you listen this far. Thank you.

[Yowei Shaw]

Enjoy the show.

[Chess Dugas]

Bye.

[Yowei Shaw]

Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shankar. I host a podcast called A Slight Change of Plans that combines behavioral science and storytelling to help us navigate the big changes in our lives.

[Chess Dugas]

I get so choked up because I.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Feel like your show and the conversations are what the world needs.

[Chess Dugas]

Encouraging, empowering counter programming that acts like a lighthouse when the world feels dark.

[Yowei Shaw]

Listen to A Slight Change of Plans. Wherever you get your podcasts, this episode is supported in part by Quints. So you know those tiny ankle socks you wear to work out that are always slipping down the back of your heels and you have to keep pulling them up in between burpees? Maybe that's just a me problem, but thanks to Quint's, problem solved. Quint's is a one stop shop. They have work wear, activewear, loungewear, intimates, shoes, bags, jewelry. I tried their performance running ankle socks and they are so well made and comfy and definitely didn't slip down my heels. Everything on the site looks great quality, elegant and simple but for a fraction of the price. Currently I am eyeing the gray Italian wool oversized blazer for when the weather gets cooler. And they've got a lot of other elevated essentials for fall like 100% Mongolian cashmere, washable silk tops and skirts, tailored denim, all at prices that feel too good to be true. So keep it classic and cozy this fall with long lasting staples from quints. Go to quince.comproxy for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.comproxy to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comproxy this episode is brought to you in part by Mood. Hello Proxy engineer and bedraggle podcast spouse Kyle.

[Chess Dugas]

Hello.

[Yowei Shaw]

Did you know there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door? Cannabis that's grown on small pesticide free US farms.

[Kyle Pulley]

Yeah, that sounds sick.

[Yowei Shaw]

I'm talking about Mood.com's incredible line of functional gummies and you can get 20% off your first order at Mood.com with promo code Proxy. What I think is cool about Mood is they make these functional gummies that are optimized to help with a whole bunch of things like period cramps, sleeping focus, creativity, even energy. That's my favorite one called the morning gummy. What do you think?

[Kyle Pulley]

Oh, it was great. I fixed some stuff around the house, I cleaned some things, I went out and gardened. Yeah, it was just like a nice stress relieving activity.

[Yowei Shaw]

It's like chore weed. It is. It makes doing your chores a little bit more fun and you have energy to keep going.

[Chess Dugas]

Yeah.

[Yowei Shaw]

Best of all, not only is every Mood product backed by a 100 day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners get 20% off their first order with code Proxy. So if you want to support Proxy and get a sweet discount, head to mood.com, find the function gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for and let Mood help you discover your perfect mood. And don't forget to use promo code proxy when you check out to save you 20% on your first order.

[Kyle Pulley]

Yo dude, it's Mood.

[Yowei Shaw]

They should hire you. Hey everybody. Welcome to Proxy. I'm Yoe Shah. So on Proxy, we help people who are stuck on conundrums, work through their feelings by finding them. A proxy to talk to a stranger who has relevant experience. Today's story is about a conundrum that I keep hearing about. I hear about it in the news from friends. It's just in the zeitgeist. I'm talking about estrangement, specifically kids cutting off their parents. In the US estrangement is actually quite common. About 1 in 10 people are estranged from either a parent or child. And when estranged parents and estranged kids gather online, they often do it in tribes. There are subreddits for estranged kids, private Facebook groups for estranged parents. These separate little worlds that are there to help each other cope. Reporter Kim Nadervane Petersa has been spending a lot of time in the universe of estrangement, and she brings us this story. Here's Kim.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

One of these Worlds is on YouTube. There's this woman who goes by Ches Dugas who posts videos about her experience estranging from her family.

[Chess Dugas]

Hi gang. Welcome back. Thanks for tuning in.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

The videos. They're insanely personal and open, like this one where she reads a letter that her mom sent her for her birthday.

[Chess Dugas]

Dear Chess, we are saddened and disappointed that 45 years of unconditional love, respect and support should be so easily cast aside. I hope this letter and card is not secure, seen as intrusive. We will always be your loving parents. Signed by my mom.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Jessa's channel is called the Scapegoat Club. It's relatively small, about 20,000 subscribers, and the channel is interesting. It feels unusual in the world of YouTube. It really feels like she's not there to get likes or shares, as much as it's really a place for people to connect.

[Chess Dugas]

Dear friends is emotional abuse.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

She started it because estranging from her family. Well, she explains in her videos that it was incredibly painful and confusing and she wanted this place where she could make sense of what was happening with other people who understood, where they could figure out basically how to move on with their lives together.

[Chess Dugas]

It's pretending that they're perfect. They haven't done anything wrong. They've always done the best thing. There's no responsibility.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

I heard about Chess from an unlikely source, a mom who had been cut off by her kids. She told me that at night when she wishes that she could talk to them, she'll log onto YouTube and watch chess's videos. She says that Chess reminds her of her own kids.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Not that she's a replacement, but it's given me a chance to try on a different perspective that I don't have access to.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

When's the last time you missed your kids and watched a video from her.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Last night.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

We're going to call this woman JC because she wants to be anonymous. So we've changed her voice. Her story is also going to lack some details for that reason. So JC is on the older end, well past middle age. And when she reached out to us, it had been about a year since she last talked to her kids. And where she's stuck now is that her kids, they've told her why they've estranged, but their reasons don't really make sense to J.C. she just doesn't understand.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

You know, I would want to ask them now either please tell me now what you had hadn't told me before, or please tell me again because maybe I didn't hear clearly enough the first time. And I think if a reconciliation were ever possible, that's what I would look toward as I would want to know more.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

JC Got in touch because she wanted to know if we could help her talk to a proxy. It's what we do on the show. So not reach out to her kids because they've asked her not to, but somebody else who cut off their parents, somebody who could help her understand something more, maybe. So, naturally, the first person who I reached out to was Chess, the woman that JC has been watching on YouTube. And she said, yeah, actually, she would talk to JC. Very exciting. But in the back of my mind, I was also like, okay, what is going to be in this conversation for Chess? I mean, she stopped talking to her parents for a reason. This could be a tough dynamic to enter into.

[Chess Dugas]

But.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

But as we started talking, it became clear that the conversation might be helpful for her, too. Chess has told her parents why she's estranging, and yet her mom keeps sending her these letters saying she doesn't understand. And it weighs on Chess.

[Chess Dugas]

I feel like I hold my mom's, like, happiness in my hands, and I don't want that. I can't divorce them. How do I get. How do I stop this?

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

So Chess is in, but she admits that she's also a bit nervous going into the conversation. So we set her up with this therapist whose whole focus is navigating family estrangements. His name is Josh Coleman.

[Josh Coleman]

Curious what. What your feelings are.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

And together, they go over her concerns, figure out how to address them.

[Chess Dugas]

I think I'm worried about judgment.

[Josh Coleman]

Are you?

[Chess Dugas]

Yeah, A lot of, like, am I going to be judged as being an awful person?

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

So then on a fall day, we all pile into a video call and launch in. Hi, Chess, can you hear us?

[Chess Dugas]

Hi. I can hear you.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Hi, Jess.

[Chess Dugas]

Hello. My cats are absolutely going nuts right now, so I've tried to lock them out, and I apologize, but they're just going crazy in the background, so.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

That is the estrangement therapist, Josh Coleman. We asked him to be in the conversation, too, just to be safe. Any questions from anybody before we start rolling?

[Chess Dugas]

Nope. Not for me.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Nope.

[Chess Dugas]

Okay.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

So, Chess, I want to start by asking, why did you agree to do this?

[Chess Dugas]

Because estrangement was, I think, the by far the hardest thing that I've ever gone through. And it's something that we don't talk about. And if we can try and understand more, then we can try and hopefully avoid it, because it's just. It's just incredibly hard.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Yeah, I imagine that will be hard for each of you. J.C. would you tell Chess the story of what happened with your family and why you reached out to us?

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Yeah, my story. I. I very thoughtfully chose and married a person that I ultimately trusted and dearly loved. And we spent quite a long time together, stabilizing our relationship before adding children. I was very, very excited to build a family, but my husband and I had both come from, you know, troubled family histories, you know, many generations involving various kinds of. I guess the word is trauma, you know, addiction issues for people. And he and I pledged to spare our children any of that. But one of the things that happened was that having children is stressful. So suddenly, job responsibilities shift and finances shift and how much sleep people get, and the baby only wants to be with so and so at 4am and for my husband, I think it was more stressful than he knew it was going to be. And he began to have troubles with his own addictions. And eventually, sometime down the road, after we had split up and were separated and divorced, my children eventually started to hint to me that they had some criticisms for me, and they also didn't want to hear my explaining anything about how I saw it or what I remembered. And we did, at one point, meet with a mediator and attempted a reconciliation. And these days, I look back at that with such gratitude, because even if it never happens again, I. I will never forget the joy of how it did happen. Six hours on the phone at a time. And you can call me in the middle of the night. I just want to talk to you. If you. If you do want to talk, I'm here. I'll wake up. And eventually, they estranged again. So now it's been over a year where all my children went. No contact, and that included all my grandchildren. So that's kind of my story.

[Chess Dugas]

The first thing I'm going to say is, I'm sorry. I'm. I can hear how, how hard that. That you tried and how much it wasn't, you know, of course it wasn't planned. Maybe, maybe there are a lot of similarities, but I see my, my experience very different to what you're describ across as very open. And I know that my parents, I think on a very kind of basic level, they don't have the depth and the. The emotional capabilities that you have.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

My children would differ with you. The perspectives are different.

[Chess Dugas]

How would they describe you as a parent? If they were listening to this conversation, what would they be saying?

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Yeah, so they have said that I'm a narcissist, that I have gaslit them, that when I talk, it's all about me, that what I really care about is looking good and I don't mind if children get hurt in the process. I'm selfish. I'm a liar. It's things like that that were so extreme, given the kind of life that we had with each other, as, you know, to my perspective. But those are things that they said they felt I was incapable of empathizing with another person. Things like that that were very, very hard to hear.

[Chess Dugas]

Would you be willing to share an example that they've given you that they say this was just too hard.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

There was one event that I liked, and I took the children to it. They invited their friends many times. We made a big deal of it. But later they said, oh, you just did that because you liked that. That wasn't for us. How could you? They felt that during divorcing, I didn't work enough and I could have worked harder to make more money so that the family wasn't struggling. They felt that I really put a damper on their early sexual relationships with peers in middle school and high. They thought that that was just me being controlling and puritanical and unnecessarily insensitive to them. So those are some examples.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

So you might be noticing at this point, like I was, that JC's story gets vague, kind of like right at the moments where you want details like, okay, what exactly did your kids accuse you of? And if this were a different show, like 60 Minutes at this point, we would interview as many people as we could to get down to the hard facts of what JC did, what caused the estrangement. But that is not this show. At proxy, we are building towards a different kind of understanding. We report on feelings, try to make sense of them and hopefully in the process help people get a bit less stuck. So when our guests come to us and say that they have some kind of emotional conundrum, that's where we start. Sometimes that can mean sitting with some ambiguity, and that will definitely be the case here. All right, back to Chess.

[Chess Dugas]

I will definitely say that I do think that the situations are very different. But when I did speak to or air my concerns to my parents, I've either been told that, yep, I am, I'm, I'm wrong, that events didn't happen the way that I've said they did, that I'm being selfish, that, yeah, there's nothing on their side that is concerning and it's basically it's my fault. So I don't feel that they heard me at all. That's one of the reasons, I think, for me to say, okay, I'm done, because there's only so many times that I can air my concerns about the relationship and not be heard.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

You know, I just, I can't say that as a parent, I haven't made my kids feel that way. Sometimes, even if I thought I was doing a bang up job, there probably were times when I was completely off the mark. So I just appreciate you saying, you know what your experience has been.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

At this point, JC asks Chess if she wouldn't mind talking about her own relationship with her parents. And Chess starts telling her own story. She grew up in a small village in England, bred when her dad stay at home, mom. And when it came to material things, she was perfectly comfortable.

[Chess Dugas]

But there was no emotional comfort that I ever remember. The emotions that I remember feeling as a child were fear and being wrong and being criticized and being judged and being, being unwanted. And one of my earliest memories is we wanted a boy. We didn't want you. And I just share that because that's kind of like the theme of my family, that I don't believe that we ever enjoyed each other's company. I don't have any memories that they actually really, to be honest, that they like me. It's, to me, it all seems to be about this is what families do and these are our roles and this is how we do things.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

And then a few years ago when Chess was in her mid-40s, things were going really well in her life and suddenly she realized that the feedback that she was getting from the people around her, basically from everybody who wasn't her family, was, you're not a horrible person. You're actually quite a lovely person. You're capable and responsible and you make good decisions. It seemed to Chess that the more distance that she had from her family, the better it felt. And so she started setting some boundaries.

[Chess Dugas]

And that's when I found out some really very ugly truths about some things that were happening in the family. It was almost like the fog lifted and I saw the reality and they started pressuring me, bullying me, blackmailing me, and I had a breakdown. And that's when I just said, I can't do this anymore. And that was like the end. They were very angry when I estranged. They were like, you will not estrange. You do not estrange from us. We're your parents. You will keep in contact. And at some point, my. My dad wrote to me and told me basically what a horrible person I am and how I was to blame for everything. And then he gave me an ultimatum and said, basically, you will do what we say. Which included kind of weekly check ins that sounded like they wanted to kind of keep me in line almost. And I either did that or I was out of the. I have reached out a few times to try and point out the reasons why I decided to estrange, but since then, my mom continues to write to me saying she has no idea what the problem is and why I won't speak to them. I just. I'm at a loss as to what else I could possibly do. Is there any other option? And given the amount of emotional distress that it caused me, there's only so many times I'm willing to put myself through those types of conversations. At some point I have to say, I'm done. And so that's kind of like a nutshell of my experience and my story.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

But it explains worlds, you know, to anyone who will listen that you felt unseen and unknown and when. When there was any question you were to blame. And then they said, why don't you talk to us? Why don't you want to be around us? And they didn't give you, as far as I can tell, any avenue to reach out to them as your real, you know, genuine self, a person that they didn't know or see.

[Chess Dugas]

I think the first thing I would need to see is some kind of. So right now I'm in this weird dynamic with my parents where I've said, look, can you back off? Can you basically respect my. My boundaries? So I blocked them on the phone and I blocked them on my cell, but my mom can still leave messages. And so she continues to do so, and she continues to send me Christmas Cards and birthday cards. I see that as pushing my boundaries. Again, not respecting that. I've said clearly, please don't do this. And so I would love to hear jc, I'd love to hear your. Your thoughts on what it's like as a. As a mom to. How do you navigate that space?

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Well, first of all, it's excruciating to not be able to send loving things to the people that I love. And I have also very much respected their wishes that I not do that. So when I was told that I was blocked, I never even tried to see if I was blocked. I just didn't ever message again. When I was told to not send gifts anymore, I stopped.

[Chess Dugas]

I guess I'm. I would love to know what. What is the excruciating piece? Why is that so painful for you to feel like you can't send gifts?

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

It was just a way to have a little bit of contact while I gave up all the other contact that they wanted me to give up. And so I think the excruciating part is this last filament of connection is no longer viable. And I'm a loving person. I really love them.

[Chess Dugas]

I feel. I feel torn, I think, because I can really hear how hard it is. And I think I find it hard because, I mean, let me think about. About this for a sec.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Is it in part that you don't trust the sincerity of why your mom is sending you those things?

[Chess Dugas]

I think it's because I've never felt that sincerity from her, ever. And it, for me, it just shows that it's not there. And so then I kind of question, is it me? Do I not understand love? Am I somehow flawed? Am I this cold, robotic, evil person that can't see her love? And I think, again, that's the kind of messaging that I've heard from my family. But also, I hate getting gifts, full stop. I spent so many years being given things and being told I had to be grateful for them, and then it's like, well, have you used it? Yes. Chess. Why aren't you wearing it? Chess? Those types of things. So I don't want gifts. I don't want their inheritance. I want a loving, respectful family, and I don't want to be bought.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

So it almost sounds like the gift you would like, if it were possible from your mother or father, would be the gift of wanting to know you and making an effort to see who you really are and then valuing you for who you are.

[Chess Dugas]

And I think the first thing you said, wanting to know me and I think that's it. I don't think that they know me or they want to know me. And that is. Yeah, that's the. That's the key thing. And I don't know how that would change.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

After the break, what it would take for that to change. So at this point in the conversation, Chess tells JC that her mom keeps sending her letters saying that she loves her, But Chess doesn't buy it. And so JC Asks her, can you think of anything at all that your mom could say that would help you believe her?

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Like, if your mother sent you a letter and said, I realize I don't know you at all, please tell me anything you want me to know about you or your life or your values, I will just listen. I won't argue, defend, explain. I'm open. If you ever want to let me know. Like, what would that be?

[Chess Dugas]

Like, that would be help. Yeah, that would be helpful. Totally.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Yeah.

[Chess Dugas]

What were you saying? Write that down for me.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

I'm just teasing you.

[Chess Dugas]

Well, I. But that's. Well, no hang. So it's. But it's not. It doesn't come from me. It needs to come from her. Why am I writing it down? JC Actually, that. That kind of touches something, because I think this is. This is something that I feel that's kind of just underlies so many conversations around estrangement. And it came up with my initial conversation with Josh as well.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Just a reminder that sitting in on this call has been Josh Coleman, an estrangement therapist.

[Josh Coleman]

I thought you. You both were doing a great. A great job and talking about a really difficult topic in a really poignant and compelling way.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

And before the proxy conversation, he and Chess had talked to prepare. That's what she's referencing now.

[Chess Dugas]

Josh, I think you said, you know, it was like you needed to leave. It was black and white, and we did use the word abusive. And yet, Josh, at one point, you said, well, maybe would you think about being, like, merciful towards your parents and contacting them that way? And then JC, you're saying, well, what if you said to your mom, like, so I guess I'm really stuck here in terms of why is it up to me to make these changes? And I guess my question is, do you feel that there's an obligation here? Would you ask someone else who has said, look, I've left an abusive relationship. Am I interpreting, misinterpreting this?

[Josh Coleman]

Yeah, I don't think either parents or adult children owe the other a relationship. I do think that both sides owe the other a kind of due Diligence. And by that I mean that I think it's incumbent on adult children that for the people who gave them life and maybe gave them opportunities that they might not have had or sacrificed to make some period of time where they try to explain why their relationship with the parent is so hurtful or toxic or disruptive to them and give the parent an opportunity to repair or do their own therapy or family therapy and to really explore what a healthy relationship would look like for the adult child. But I don't. I don't feel that adult children are obligated to keep trying no matter which. And I think, you know, the case with you, Chess, is I think that you're. You're a really good example of somebody who's tried really, really, really hard. And at some point, it does become more binary between your own psychological survival and theirs. But, you know, I think parents are enormously obligated to their children as well to due diligence about their complaints. So my. My wish is that people in general gave each other more. More Runway to figure things out and to be more responsive to what the adult child is finding so hurtful or disruptive about the parent.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

I think I'm just grasping at straws for how could. How could these. These clueless people, your parents, ever get an idea of what might work that might be helpful to them if you know, some things that specifically would help? But I don't. I don't think you're obliged. I don't think you should feel guilty for not doing it. I think it's up to them to figure it out if they can. And so I think it's up to me to figure it out. Since my children aren't telling me either, you know, how can I do that without any input from them?

[Chess Dugas]

I feel like this. That's. That's a challenge. That's. Yeah, I. I can hear your pain. And I wish that there were a better. A better solution. It feels like a kind of a stalemate. Right. And so I guess another question is, if this estrangement continues, can you. Can you be happy? I wonder, because I feel that there's this kind of pressure from my family that my mom can't be happy without reconciliation. And I guess one of my questions to you would be like, do I. Or do children. Do I have some kind of responsibility towards her emotions?

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

I'm not sure what being obligated means now, but I don't really want people to love me because they're obligated. I really aspire to relationships that are different than that. And I don't. I don't think my children owe me. Caring for me in my old age or, you know, being at my deathbed. So I guess if that answers your question, I don't think you should be obliged. And while I know as an estranged parent that the pain is. It's phenomenal, I think it's on me to fix my life to where I'm at a point where I don't need mercy from someone. And what I would rather have from them is that they genuinely miss me, but not. Not at all, because they feel sorry for me.

[Chess Dugas]

I'm so glad you said that, JC as well, because I think that, yeah, I. I don't want to feel sorry for my parents. I don't want to feel sorry for my mom. I want her to be doing okay and have that respectful relationship with her that, yeah, she doesn't need me. And I'm so glad that you don't see that. It's your children's job to do that. It's very helpful for me to hear.

[Charlie Klein]

That.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

At this point. I'm curious if you miss your mom ever, or if you think, and I'm using your mom more than your dad. You've talked more about her, but do you feel that she is a bad mom?

[Chess Dugas]

I think I want to avoid that question because she's not in the room. And if she were to ever hear that, then I think that would, you know, potentially destroy her. I think she loved me in her way, but it was a very difficult space.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

I have been called a bad mom. So in that sense.

[Chess Dugas]

Yeah, sorry. I just wanted to speak to that, actually, because I. I have a very difficult relationship with my mom, and I think it would be crushing to call her a bad mom. And it makes me sad that your. Your kids have said that to you. I kind of wonder, like, have you given enough boundaries to your kids to say, hey, you know, I did my best, and can we have, like, a respect to talking about these things? I feel like I'm empathizing because I've been told that I was a bad kid, and I think that that hurts.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Yeah. I mean, it sounds like both of you have heard things that have been really hurtful and have also not been able to hear other things that maybe would have been really helpful to you. And so I was wondering whether it might actually make sense at this point. At this point, I move us onto a role playing exercise that JC had suggested where each of them will literally take on the role of the other person's estranged family member. So JC will act like Chess's mom, and Chess will act like one of JC's kids. JC's hope is that it might give them some new kind of perspective in a deep way. Chess and Josh both agreed, and I asked Josh to facilitate. Chess is up first.

[Josh Coleman]

Okay. So, Jess, is there anything you would want to say to your mom that might help you come to peace with your estrangement? And do you want to say that to J.C. now?

[Chess Dugas]

Okay.

[Yowei Shaw]

I'll give it a shot.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Okay.

[Chess Dugas]

J.C. is my mom. Okay. So what I would say, mom, is that I feel that I have told you so many times my concerns about our relationship, and I am so sad that I don't think you've heard them and that you keep coming back with, what's the problem? Why won't you talk to me? Wouldn't it be great for us to have a relationship? And I'm just baffled and stunned, and I don't know where to go with the fact that you think that you don't know what the problem is. And I guess I just want you to know that I'm really sorry that this is hurting you, but I can't do anything more from my side. And I wish you could hear that that would be what I would say.

[Josh Coleman]

And how would you respond, jc, to that, in putting yourself in the role of Chess's mom?

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Honey, I'm really glad you're even talking to me. I know you're saying I don't listen to you, and you're probably right. I feel so bad about, I guess, having failed you as your mom. And from what you say from when you were very young, that makes me so sad. And I really do love you. And I'm sorry I haven't understood what you were trying to get across to me. I just didn't get it.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Chess, do you have any notes?

[Chess Dugas]

My mom's never called me honey or anything nice like that, so that was nice to hear. I. The only thing I would switch is that you said that you're really sad. I would want it to be that I'm. Oh, gosh, I'm gonna say it out loud. I don't want it to be about how you're feeling. I want it to be about how I'm feeling.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Okay.

[Chess Dugas]

Because I've had so much about how my mom feels.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

So. What if we try it again?

[Charlie Klein]

Sure.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Okay. Honey, I'm really glad you're talking to me. I have wanted this more than you could possibly know. And I know you're telling me that I haven't really listened to you, haven't really respected you from what you're saying. I haven't made you feel close to me, even from when you were a little, little kid. And I want you to know I am. I am hearing maybe for the first time how very sad this has made you. And I'm so sorry that I missed such major pieces of being a good mom to you.

[Chess Dugas]

That was lovely, actually. That was. That was really lovely. Thank you, jc.

[Charlie Klein]

You're welcome.

[Chess Dugas]

Yeah. I think if I'd ever been able to hear anything like that throughout my childhood or at any time, maybe even now, it would make so much difference. And it makes me feel quite sad and emotional that. Yeah, I don't know if I ever will hear that from my mom. But it was lovely to hear that from you.

[Josh Coleman]

Jc, if you were never to see your kids again, and obviously we hope that you will, but is there anything you'd want to hear from them that would help you to come to terms with it, that Chess could say right now?

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

So it would involve my accepting that they are never going to have contact with me again. And it's supposed to be helpful to me.

[Charlie Klein]

Right?

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

I guess they would say.

[Chess Dugas]

Do you. Do you want me to do what you did, J.C. so you can let me know what's wrong and how I can rephrase it? Sure.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Chess Dugas]

Okay. So my first attempt will be. Mom, I want to tell you that I do appreciate you respecting the boundaries that I put in. And I think that I understand that that's really hard for you to do, but I do appreciate that you are able to do that for me. There are so many things that I'm still working on that I don't have any visibility right now as to how we can continue our relationship. But I want you to know that I wish you well and I wish you peace, and I wish you as much happiness in your life, and I'm trying to do the same. And I hope that with that space that we can both live the best lives that we're able to.

[Josh Coleman]

And what do you feel hearing that JC From Chess as the stand in for your children?

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Good to hear. Made me feel like crying. I'm not sure how helpful it is because I think it's leaving me where I already am. Except, I guess there was a slight window of if I would give them space. Maybe things might change someday. Did I get that right?

[Chess Dugas]

Yeah. And I don't know if I broke the rules because it was supposed to be, but. Yeah, because. Sorry, Kim, I Spoke over you, but. But I know we're talking about if you were never to speak to your. Your child again. I know that was kind of like the brief. But also, I. My genuine way of speaking from my side is. Is that I'm. I don't want to say never. I just want to say I don't have that visibility right now. And.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

And maybe that's the more helpful part, is we have no plans to have contact with you again, where things stand now, but I'm not saying not ever. Things could change in the future. I'll let you know if they do.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Well, you too.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Yeah.

[Chess Dugas]

Yeah. So, Mom, I just want to say, first of all, thank you for respecting my boundaries around the contact and my wish to not have contact. Also, I do still have a lot of reservations about the relationship, and I don't have visibility right now as to if or when that would change. But I do appreciate that the door is open from your side and that I do feel that I can contact you if we want to rethink about this relationship again in the future.

[Josh Coleman]

And why do you feel hearing that JC.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

How I felt was better? I think the sharpest edge of the estrangement for me is the finality of it, to never be given another chance to change my approach or even apologize or learn more about what had happened. If it's a no contact forever, that's extra, extra painful. Whereas it turns out I'm pretty good at waiting a year in the hope of talking with my children again, I could probably wait a number of years.

[Chess Dugas]

I feel like estrangement is a fluid thing. I really do. I mean, I think some people can be very black and white and, Josh, you probably know more, but for me, it's a case of. Yeah, I can see how it would be scary and sound so final and. Because there is no visibility as to if or when there is an end date. But for me, it's just where I'm at right now. And I really wish that I could give you those answers that you will be able to reconcile or that your kids will change their minds. That's how what I. How I genuinely feel. And I'm truly sorry.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Thank you for saying all that.

[Chess Dugas]

You're welcome. And. And it's true.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

And that was the end of the proxy conversation. Well, Chess, we can get you. We can let you get back to your cats.

[Chess Dugas]

They are hungry. I will. I will sign off.

[Josh Coleman]

So am I. Yeah, me as well.

[Chess Dugas]

Yeah.

[Josh Coleman]

All right. Lovely to talk to you all.

[Yowei Shaw]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Chess Dugas]

Thanks, everybody. Bye.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

A few Weeks later, I follow up with Chess and JC to see how they're doing, and they have an update. Somebody has reached out. That's after the break. So about six weeks after the proxy conversation, I reach back out to Chess because I want to check in, see how she's doing. We haven't talked, like, actually at all since then. A part of me is also just curious to debrief. Like, how. How was that?

[Chess Dugas]

I think one of my overall thoughts was, did I read the situation right?

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Are you afraid that you were maybe manipulated?

[Chess Dugas]

Yeah. Was I con? You know, and I think it's because. Because that happens so often within my experience with my family. And so there's a big part of me that's like, yeah, did I get it right? But I guess so. I just need to fall back on. Okay. Yes. And also, I have. I feel like I do have a better read on people now, and it was different.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Chess told me that in addition to having a YouTube channel, she's also a therapist, and she thinks that she's had enough exposure to people, people with personality disorders, that if Jacy was lying to her, she thinks she would recognize it.

[Chess Dugas]

I feel like I can pick up on that. And so if I had to. If I had to put money on it and, like, bet on red or black, I would bet on the fact that she was being sincere. But also, does that mean that she was being sincere in that situation and that she hasn't in the past? In the past, clearly, the whole thing.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Has been kind of a mind fuck. But that sincerity that Chess did feel, it kind of shook her. There was one moment in particular during the psychodrama section at the end there when JC Called her honey, and I.

[Chess Dugas]

Was like, oh, like, that is just the weirdest thing I've ever heard. Like, I can't imagine one of my parents saying something using a word like that towards me. The most warm thing that I can ever remember my mom saying to me was on my wedding day, and she said, we are proud of you. You know, there was, like, no warmth behind the words. And I. So that is why it was so strong for me, because that's what. That's what JC Did.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

I mean, it almost sounds like she helped you feel what kind of like receiving love feels like from a parental figure.

[Chess Dugas]

Almost like in those three sentences she gave me, it was almost like, wow, that's a huge thing I've been missing in my relationship. And so it's also very validating for me to be like, okay, I don't think I'm making the problems up with my family. Yeah, hit quite deep, and I'm glad it was at the end.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

But something else shifted for Chess too. After that proxy conversation, she posted this video on her YouTube channel.

[Chess Dugas]

Hi, friends. Welcome to the scapegoat club. My name's Check.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

In the video, she told people that she had been on this podcast with an estranged mom who seemed actually quite warm and caring and who had also been hurt.

[Chess Dugas]

And it seems genuine.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

And it's making her question how she sees estranged parents in general.

[Chess Dugas]

I can see that it happens both ways. We can have just harmful and difficult parents. We can have difficult and challenging children. There's a big speck spectrum in the estrangement world.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

So now she wants to start hearing from more estranged parents and invite them into the conversation, unlike the forums and subreddits and Facebook groups that are really for one group or another.

[Chess Dugas]

Take care, friends. Bye for now.

[Charlie Klein]

And she immediately caught a bunch of shit for it.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Jc, of course, saw the video and loved it.

[Charlie Klein]

If you read down through the comments, it's absolutely fascinating because a bunch of people said, why are you letting those people in? How dare you? Basically have more than this very simplistic thinking about who's good and who's bad. But if somebody who's as known as she is, as followed as she is, if she can change, all kinds of things can change. It just felt like being given a flicker of hope from somebody.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Since the conversation, JC has not reached out to her kids. She wants to respect their request for no contact, and their story is still a puzzle to her. But this tiny little flicker of hope is making her see some other things.

[Charlie Klein]

You know, I don't have a door open between me and my children, but there are other doors.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Since the conversation, JC tells me that she's gotten to know this young woman through her work who's had a terrible relationship with her mom. Graduation is coming up soon, and JC has offered to go.

[Charlie Klein]

I'm not going to force her, you know, you have to let me love you this way. But I'm offering because it might give her the chance to, in a proxy way, have approval from her family for who she is. So many times, like, the kind of healing we want really isn't available. What if that person is dead that you needed to say something else to? And you never are going to get to do that. But what else could you do? My world doesn't have to be these two children that, for whatever reason, don't want to know me. There's a huge world out There. And there's some people in it that are hurting like I have been or like she has been. And I can support them and help them and help myself in the process.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

But Chess has followed a different route.

[Chess Dugas]

Afterwards. I did end up writing to my parents. Oh, wow. Do you want me to talk you through a little bit about that?

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Chess Dugas]

Yeah. Okay. I have been thinking about it for a long time, but every time I came to writing it, the letter was just too angry, you know? But I think really what made me reach out was that I feel like if I am going to be in more of a public space, then I do owe a bit more, I don't know, due diligence. So I owe something to my parents to say, look, I really am trying to try and move this forward. Yeah. So it took me a little bit of time, but I did write to my mom and just say, okay, I really do want this to be constructive. I'm not trying to, you know, be antagonistic. And I appreciate that you've been reaching out to me, but the way that you're reaching out isn't. Isn't helping me because it's not addressing the concerns that I have. So I said, I appreciate that you want to have a relationship, and I do appreciate all the things that you've done for me in the past. But also, if you want to move forward, we really need to address these big things that I brought up, which I feel haven't been addressed. I mean, it was meant as a way to kind of build bridges, but it wasn't a conciliatory letter by any means.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

But you are choosing to engage again?

[Chess Dugas]

I am. I think the shift is that I'm at least. Well, I'm willing to. Yeah. To speak about it. Okay.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

So just an aside for a moment. I want to be so clear that with this story, we are not condoning reaching out or not reaching out to anybody. Every situation is different. Only the people in that situation know what's best for themselves. And sometimes that can mean protecting yourself by not being in touch. But in Chess case, I asked Chess, what changed that made her want to reach out? And she said that it was something that Yowei and I had told her, actually, in the process of working on.

[Chess Dugas]

This story, something about, we want to hear your side of things. Whereas before, my parents, they've always said, you know, basically, what I say doesn't have any validity. And so I think it's given me the courage to say, actually, no, this is my perspective. This is me. And if you want to have any kind of relationship with me, then this has to be on the table.

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

Chess also told me that she started to feel like her parents hold less power over her. Like now she could reach out and no matter how they respond, she's confident that she'll be okay.

[Chess Dugas]

Yeah, me taking, yeah, taking that power back, taking that strength back and saying, actually this is my perspective. And yeah, I understand, understand that we all have, everyone has their own. But at some point, if we're going to go anywhere, then we have to acknowledge at least each other's perspectives on things. And spoiler alert, I haven't heard from them.

[Yowei Shaw]

That was reporter Kim Nadervane Petersa. Thank you to JC Chess Dugas and Josh Coleman for participating. You can watch Chess's videos on her YouTube channel, the scapegoat club. And you can read Josh Coleman's newsletter, family troubles on Substack. We'll have those links in our show Notes Foreign we'll be back on Tuesday, September 30th with a part two on estrangement. Why is it that even after mediation, phone calls and letters detailing all the reasons why estranged parents often say they don't get why their kids cut them off?

[Kim Nadervane Petersa]

So when I talked to the child.

[Chess Dugas]

This is what she told me that she had written on her bedroom wall in marker pen Hel this is hell. And it was painted over. And this parent came to me like saying I have no idea why she thinks I don't listen.

[Yowei Shaw]

Proxy is an independent podcast and we are smack dab in the middle of our membership campaign. We've got three weeks to go to get to 1500 paying Patreon members by October 9th so we can get an additional 25k from a generous listener to cover the costs of making a year two of the show. That would really make a difference, people. As of this recording, we are at 560 paying Patreon members, which is amazing and we still have a long way to go. So if you believe in emotional investigative journalism and want to hear a year two of Proxy, if you've been meaning to give but haven't gotten around to it, now is the time to heed the call and make your support multiply. For just $5 a month, you'll get exclusive premium episodes and access to the chat. What a bargain. Sign [e-mail] ProxyPodcast that's patreon.com ProxyPodcast this episode was edited by Tim Howard, mixed by Kyle Pulley and produced by me Yowei Shaw with help from Charlie Klein and Anna Karan Santana music in the 70s episode by Tim Howard and our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Special thanks to Dan Bobkoff, Lisa Chasen and Kate Chasen. Proxy is a proud member of Radiotopia from prx, a network of independent, creator owned, listener supported podcasts. Audrey Martovich is the Executive Producer of Radiotopia. Yuri Lozordo is the Director of Operations Discover Audio with Vision Radiotopia FM. As always, you can follow us on Instagram ProxyPodcast and I'm Yoeshaw. Get in [e-mail] thanks for listening. See you next week. Bye.

[JC (Anonymous Estranged Parent)]

Radiotopia.

[Chess Dugas]

From PRX.