Mic Chooses the Wrong Life

Summary

Proxy with Yowei Shaw – Episode: "Mike Chooses the Wrong Life" (Released May 6, 2025)

Host: Yowei Shaw
Guest: Mike Nguyen
Proxy Expert: Dr. Amy Somerville

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1. Introduction to Mike Nguyen's Dilemma

In this deeply personal episode of Proxy, host Yowei Shaw delves into the emotional turmoil of Mike Nguyen, a 45-year-old advertising professional and comedian. Mike grapples with profound regret over not pursuing a career in medicine, a path his Vietnamese immigrant parents had envisioned for him. This regret has lingered for years, influencing his sense of self and career satisfaction.

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2. Family Expectations vs. Personal Passion

Mike opens up about the cultural expectations placed upon him as the son of Vietnamese refugees. While his parents aspired for him to become a doctor or lawyer—professions that bring prestige and honor to the family—Mike's own interests lay elsewhere.

Mike Nguyen [02:22]:
"I decided to follow my heart and pursue my passion of long-form audio journalism. Only to now read articles every week titled 'Has the Podcast Bubble Finally Burst?' But still, no regrets."

Despite his parents' hopes, Mike struggled academically in subjects like math and eventually chose not to continue on the pre-med track. A pivotal moment was when he flipped a coin to decide whether to stay in a challenging physics class, ultimately choosing to drop it.

Mike Nguyen [06:01]:
"I took out like a quarter and I said, if this is heads, I'm going to take physics. If this is tails, I'm not going to take physics. And it came up heads, which means I'm supposed to take physics. And I said, nope, not going to do it."

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3. Life After Dropping Out: Career and Regret

Transitioning from pre-med, Mike majored in sociology, worked in test preparation, moved into advertising, and eventually embraced comedy to enhance his copywriting career. While he finds joy and fulfillment in his creative pursuits, the shadow of regret over not becoming a doctor persists.

Mike Nguyen [08:48]:
"I was up till midnight mixing this fucking thing... but I can't stop thinking back to that coin toss. What if I'd stayed in physics? What if I just gritted my teeth and gone to med school as planned?"

This lingering regret manifests as a constant internal loop, questioning past decisions and contemplating "what if" scenarios that keep him feeling stuck.

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4. Reaching Out to Proxy for Emotional Clarity

Feeling overwhelmed by his unresolved feelings, Mike turns to Proxy seeking a conversation with someone who can understand and possibly alleviate his emotional burden.

Mike Nguyen [09:13]:
"Is there a way to turn this into something healthy? Because I do feel like it's going to be something I have to live with."

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5. Engaging with Regret Expert Dr. Amy Somerville

Yowei Shaw connects Mike with Dr. Amy Somerville, a principal research scientist specializing in the psychology of regret. Their conversation uncovers the layers of Mike's emotional struggle.

Defining Regret

Dr. Somerville explains that regret involves feeling bad about something because one believes a different action could have led to a better outcome.

Dr. Amy Somerville [17:02]:
"Regret has three pieces. The first is that it feels bad. The second is that it's because you have a thought about how things could have been different. And the third is that it's because of something that you think you could have done differently."

Cultural Influences on Regret

Mike articulates how his cultural background amplifies his feelings of regret, comparing his life to relatives who followed the expected path.

Mike Nguyen [25:51]:
"I'm constantly grappling with this fact that I chose something different. My life turned out radically different."

Dr. Somerville notes that cultural expectations can intensify regret, making individuals feel like they've defied their "fate."

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6. Navigating Social Comparisons and Identity

The discussion delves into how Mike's comparisons with cousins and societal expectations contribute to his ongoing regret. He often finds himself measuring his success against others who adhered to the family’s expectations.

Mike Nguyen [37:20]:
"Am I living up to my full potential? ... I have anxiety around, like, well, I've chosen this life, and I hope my children don't have to pay for it later on..."

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7. Transforming Regret into a Positive Force

Dr. Somerville introduces the concept that regret, when understood properly, can be a constructive emotion that highlights what truly matters to an individual.

Dr. Amy Somerville [38:28]:
"Regret is telling us about how we should do things differently."

She encourages Mike to discern whether his regret serves a purpose or if it's simply persistent sadness without actionable steps.

Mike Nguyen [40:01]:
"Oh, I'm just sad... I'm bummed out... I'm gonna have a candy bar now and just deal with it."

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8. Embracing Personal Values and Fulfillment

Through the conversation, Mike reflects on what brings him genuine happiness and fulfillment, distinguishing between societal expectations and his own values. Moments spent with his family, like cooking for his children, provide him with a sense of purpose and satisfaction that counters his professional regrets.

Mike Nguyen [42:13]:
"I feel awesome because I feel like I am, you know, providing for my family."

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9. Conclusion: Accepting and Moving Forward

The episode concludes with Mike gaining a deeper understanding of his emotions. Acknowledging that some regrets may simply be expressions of sadness allows him to begin accepting his life's path without the constant weight of "what ifs."

Mike Nguyen [44:38]:
"Now I gotta do work on myself. Oh, that's so much harder. I think med school is probably easier than working on myself. I don't want to do that."

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Key Takeaways

• Regret Defined: Regret involves negative feelings about past decisions and a belief that different actions could have led to better outcomes.

• Cultural Impact: Cultural and familial expectations can intensify feelings of regret, especially when deviating from traditional career paths.

• Constructive Regret: Understanding regret can help individuals identify their true values and motivations, potentially turning negative emotions into positive growth.

• Personal Fulfillment: Genuine moments of happiness, such as family interactions, can provide counterbalance to professional or societal regrets.

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This episode of Proxy offers a profound exploration of how cultural expectations and personal choices intertwine to shape one's emotional landscape. By engaging with a regret expert, Mike Nguyen begins to unravel the complexities of his feelings, moving towards a place of acceptance and self-understanding.

Transcript

[Yohei Shah]

Hello, Ava Draggle, podcast spouse. What was your favorite thing about mixing this week's episode?

[Mike Nguyen]

Oh, my favorite part was that your P pops are way more under control.

[Yohei Shah]

I guess I finally learned as an audio professional to not talk directly into the microphone.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Yohei Shah]

Did you learn anything that you're going to put into practice?

[Mike Nguyen]

I don't know that I necessarily learned something that I could sum up in a single sentence, but it definitely.

[Yohei Shah]

We're trying to. We're trying to sell the show here, Kyle.

[Mike Nguyen]

Oh, you didn't let me finish. Yeah, I said nothing. I could sum up in one sentence because I'm tired because I was up till midnight mixing this fucking thing.

[Yohei Shah]

This is Proxy, and I'm Yohei Shah, your emotional investigative journalist. Today, the case of the Man Filled with Regret for the Life that Got Away. That's after the break.

[Mike Nguyen]

I'm Shankar Vedantam, here to tell you about a great mystery. That mystery. As the host of a podcast called Hidden Brain, I explore big questions about what it means to be human. Questions like, where do our emotions come from? Why do so many of us feel overwhelmed by modern life? How can we better understand the people around us? Discover your hidden brain. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Yohei Shah]

So there's this stereotype about Asians. The stereotype goes, Asian immigrant parent wants kid to be doctor or lawyer, while kid wants to do something that won't make money and won't bring honor to the family. Something shameful like podcasting. My parents immigrated to the US from Taiwan in the 70s, and I assure you, they are complex, multidimensional people. My mom loves to wear crop tops. My dad loves to talk about how hot my mom is. But this is one stereotype they did conform to. Unfortunately, I was terrible at math and was still calling my dad to do my homework by the time I got to college. I also have a terrible memory and would never have passed the bar exam. No, I decided to follow my heart and pursue my passion of long form audio journalism. Only to now read articles every week titled has the Podcast Bubble Finally Burst? But still, no regrets. I never, ever think about being a lawyer or doctor. The regret that I mostly hear around this is from people like my dad, who was a doctor but really wanted to be an artist. Which is why I was really surprised to hear from an Asian with a version of the story I'd never heard before.

[Mike Nguyen]

Are you going to use video? Because if you do, I'm going to clean up a little bit more.

[Yohei Shah]

Oh, I'm sorry. I should have told you this is Mike Nguyen. He works in advertising, and he's also a comedian who's known on the Internet for roasting himself for being a menswear dork. He calls his style American Prosperity Corps. How Americans dressed back when the middle class was prosperous. So lots of blazers with hand sewn buttonholes and Alden cordovan horse leather loafers. I don't know what that means, but apparently it signals hello. I take menswear very seriously.

[Mike Nguyen]

I do love fashion. Whenever people find out I'm into fashion, they always make fun of me. My comics make fun of me. My friends make fun of me. I always want to tell these people, hey, I don't dress for you guys. I dress for black table teenagers. Okay?

[Yohei Shah]

But here's the thing about Mike. Even though he followed his heart to pursue a creative passion, he's haunted by the life he didn't choose.

[Mike Nguyen]

So I feel in my life I was destined to fulfill the family fate of, like, becoming a doctor. And for various reasons, I ended up not becoming a doctor. And ever since then, I've just been adrift. You know, sometimes people say, oh, you're chasing your dream. No, my dream is to be a doctor. That's the dream. The comedian thing. Everything else is second to that.

[Yohei Shah]

Mike is the son of Vietnamese refugees, and growing up, he says, it was just understood he was going to be a doctor.

[Mike Nguyen]

Okay, this is the thing that's going to make make me happy and make my family happy and make my mom happy and like, make the stars align.

[Yohei Shah]

Mike says in Vietnamese culture, there are only a couple jobs that bring prestige to the family. And for Mike, it felt good to be on this path. Like, he had a higher calling. Plus, he was good at school. He liked science, he cared about people. Everything made sense. He still remembers the day it all went south. He was a junior at Berkeley and he was struggling to keep up with his pre med classes.

[Mike Nguyen]

I remember I had to take physics, and I was sitting outside the physics building and it was the last day before you could drop a class. It was like, you know, the second week of school and I took out like a quarter and I said, if this is heads, I'm going to take physics. If this is tails, I'm not going to take physics. And it came up heads, which means I'm supposed to take physics. And I said, nope, not going to do it. And I just walked right down to the administration office and I dropped the physics course.

[Yohei Shah]

It's like your body was telling you.

[Mike Nguyen]

No, I think so. The idea of putting myself through that was just like, it made me feel sick, so I didn't want to do it anymore.

[Yohei Shah]

Mike switched majors to sociology. He graduated college. He got a job at a test prep company. He moved to New York and got a job in advertising and eventually started doing comedy to give him an edge over the other copywriters and liked it. He got married. He had a kid. Today, Mike is 45. And you know that meme about how often men think about the Roman Empire? That's what it's like for Mike. But with a career that got away. Even though he enjoys working in advertising, even though he loves doing comedy, he can't stop thinking back to that coin toss. What if he'd stayed in physics? What if he just gritted his teeth and gone to med school as planned?

[Mike Nguyen]

I was watching content on Instagram, and I found this one guy, and he's like a dad, fitness influencer type. I found out later on that he's also an md. He's like, I'm a doctor and I'm a dad, and I work out a lot. And I was reading this and I was like, hey, you know, he's a content creator and a doctor. Maybe I should give it another go. And I legit looked up a couple of things, and I at least give myself enough credit in that I am wise enough to know that I would quickly come to the reality that, holy shit, this would be absolutely crazy and I probably wouldn't enjoy it.

[Yohei Shah]

When did this happen?

[Mike Nguyen]

That was, like, last week.

[Yohei Shah]

Oh, my God.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yeah. No, it's really always rattling in my mind all the time, constant.

[Yohei Shah]

Mike knows he doesn't want to go to med school, but he keeps looking into going to med school because he's stuck in a loop. He regrets not becoming a doctor, and yet he doesn't actually want to be a doctor.

[Mike Nguyen]

I don't know, like, if you've ever done this, but, like, you know, you're playing an online video game and you sort of, like, mess up your one chance to, like, get the big score or, like, kill the boss, and you just have to wait around until the game starts over again. It feels like that. It feels like, oh, I missed my chance. Well, guess I'll just float around and stuff until I get to go again or I die one of the two, you know, like, it's that feeling.

[Yohei Shah]

And that's why Mike came to us, to find him a proxy to talk to a stranger with just the right experience with his conundrum and can hopefully help him get less stuck. Mike wants to know if there's Anything he can do to silence the rattling of this regret. Or at least anything he can do to make this earworm less annoying.

[Mike Nguyen]

Is there a way to turn this into something healthy? Because I do feel like it's going to be something I have to live with. So I'm going to have to just come to terms with it.

[Yohei Shah]

Okay, Mike, thank you for bringing me this case. I will. I will try my best to find you a proxy. I do have one last question, though. If you had to vocalize the sound of this emotional conundrum, what would it be?

[Mike Nguyen]

Vocalize the sound?

[Yohei Shah]

Yeah.

[Mike Nguyen]

Gosh, it probably. Let me think here. Okay. Is there a sound to this feeling? The first thing that comes to mind. I don't know. This is totally right. You know, the elevator muzak, waiting sound, waiting room music is what I would describe it as. Right. So, you know, it's not entirely unpleasant, but it's a little, like, boring and a little bit tedious.

[Yohei Shah]

After the break, Mike has a proxy conversation and we attempt to break Mike out of the emotional waiting room he's stuck in. Please hold and proxy will be right back.

[Amy Somerville]

Hey, it's Yiyang from London, England. I am a member of proxy's patreon because. Because I am a super, super high quality narrative podcast fan. You know narrative podcasts still remember that. Oh, my God. Luckily, proxy still here to make this kind of high quality narrative podcast like.

[Mike Nguyen]

Proxy costs a lot of money for.

[Amy Somerville]

Things like editing, research and production. And at the moment, yoa is pay.

[Mike Nguyen]

For out of pocket.

[Amy Somerville]

So she needs your support to keep going. You'll get benefits like hearing episodes without ads, exclusive bonus episodes and the knowledge.

[Mike Nguyen]

That you are helping bring the world.

[Amy Somerville]

Something that never existed before. Emotional investigative journalism. You can become a member at $5.

[Mike Nguyen]

Per month by going to patreon.com ProxyPodcast.

[Amy Somerville]

That'S patreon.com ProxyPodcast okay, here's a sign off.

[Yohei Shah]

Six months go by after that first call with Mike. Six months of tedious hold music. And then finally, it's the day of the praxi conversation. I log into the video call with Mike. You're wearing a robe right now.

[Mike Nguyen]

I am wearing this awesome wrap knit cardigan.

[Yohei Shah]

A lot has happened in the six months since we spoke. Some good things.

[Mike Nguyen]

My daughter was born in August. I can't remember if we talked since then.

[Yohei Shah]

And some not so good things.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yes, I got. I lost. Lost my job.

[Yohei Shah]

Oh, I'm so sorry, Mike.

[Mike Nguyen]

It's okay. It's okay. Yeah, that afternoon was definitely scary. It was like a Gut punch. You know, I did the whole thing, the Asian thing, where it's like, did I do something wrong? Should I have worked harder?

[Yohei Shah]

Oh, yes, Mike, I know all about it. I made a three part series about getting laid off. Listen to the layoff trilogy, wherever you get your podcast. Anyway, Mike says after losing his job, he found himself scrolling through Reddit one day.

[Mike Nguyen]

I don't know how they know. Maybe they listen in on our conversations, but Reddit serves me up an ad for St. George University. Do you know this school? It is a Caribbean medical school. And it said, are you ready to make the leap to medicine? And I was like, I just got laid off. I need to provide for my family. Reddit is serving up this ad for Caribbean medical school. And I was like, is this it? Am I doing this?

[Yohei Shah]

Did you look up what it would take to go to medical school again?

[Mike Nguyen]

Yeah, I mean, actually, not at the school. I just, like, talked to my friend and just the idea of having to, like, take Biological Algae 1A again made my stomach sick.

[Yohei Shah]

Wow.

[Mike Nguyen]

I do think this is a little bit of the grass is always gonna be greener. And I know, you know, doctors have very tough lives, but it's like, I do want someone to kind of just give me a sense check. Even if it is like, hey, it's awesome, dude, you fucked up. At least somebody told me.

[Yohei Shah]

Hold that thought because the proxy's here.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yes.

[Yohei Shah]

Are you ready for me to let them in?

[Mike Nguyen]

I'm nervous.

[Yohei Shah]

So the proxy. Now on the show, our job is to help Mike investigate his feelings. We do that by finding him a proxy to talk to. That could be a stranger with shared life experience. It could be a researcher who's studied the issue at hand. In Mike's case, I thought about looking for another age. Asian who struggled with the same kind of regret. But then I thought maybe it'd be helpful to talk to someone who's studied regret, someone who could help Mike understand what he was feeling and maybe even reframe his relationship with regret. And then I came across a regret researcher who was nice enough to agree to this proxy conversation experiment.

[Amy Somerville]

Hi.

[Mike Nguyen]

Hey. Hey.

[Amy Somerville]

Nice to meet you.

[Yohei Shah]

Meet Amy Somerville, principal research scientist at Kairos Research and a social cognitive psychologist who used to run a whole research lab on regret at Miami University in Ohio.

[Amy Somerville]

So, I'm Dr. Amy Somerville. I have a PhD in social psychology. I've published one of the most cited papers on regret with my graduate advisor called what We Regret Most and why, and have done research on regret for, I guess, over 20 years at this point?

[Mike Nguyen]

No. I'm already getting very triggered by the fact that she introduced herself as doctor. So I was like, damn. I was like, sheesh.

[Yohei Shah]

I asked Mike to explain his case to Amy, and he tells her how he felt destined to become a doctor, how he couldn't keep up with his pre med classes, and about that coin toss outside his physics class.

[Mike Nguyen]

And I flipped a coin and I said, if it's heads, I will take the class. If it's tails, I will not. And it turned out heads. And I said, no, I'm still not taking it. And I walked down to the registrar and I dropped the class. And it felt awesome. It felt amazing. And that was pretty much it. I never even looked back after that.

[Yohei Shah]

Except Mike did look back. He can't stop looking back. That's literally the point of this whole episode.

[Mike Nguyen]

And I always think, like, what if I had just done that? There's always that part of me that is like, should I just apply to medical school? Now.

[Yohei Shah]

I'm curious. Any initial reactions?

[Amy Somerville]

Yeah, gosh, a lot. So I guess maybe a place to start is. Let me define how I think about regret, because I think people come to it with a lot of different ideas of what regret means, and no regrets and all of that. So in my work, I use a definition from Tom Gilovich and Victoria Medvec that I think is awesome. And it says, regret has three pieces. The first is that it feels bad. The second is that it's because you have a thought about how things could have been different. And the third is that it's because of something that you think you could have done differently. And so I think it sounds like we're check, check, check.

[Mike Nguyen]

Oh, yeah.

[Amy Somerville]

And sort of the technical term for this, like, thought about how things could have been different is a counterfactual. So. Right. Like, literally contrary to the facts. So it's this imagined possible world of how things could have been different. Regrets in particular seem to be kind of this combination of, I had a chance to do something different that maybe is now kind of a lost opportunity. I can't just, like, instantly fix it. But also, it still feels, like, really relevant to my goals and who I am. This sense of, like, who am I as a person and what is my identity and role in the world? Like, I mean, that's like the big question for everyone. So, like, of course, that's a thing we all keep wrestling with throughout our lives. So it makes sense that things that really touch on that are going to be places we come back to.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yes, you're looking into my soul Doctor.

[Amy Somerville]

This is not that kind of doctor, just to be clear.

[Mike Nguyen]

Not that kind of doctor, but still.

[Yohei Shah]

Amy is a psychologist. She doesn't treat people. But once upon a time, Amy actually also wanted to be a doctor. Like Mike, she was in a pre med program, and just like Mike, Amy wasn't sure if it was right for her. So during a summer program where she was shadowing doctors, she asked them all a question.

[Amy Somerville]

If somebody was on the fence about whether they should go to med school or do something different, what would you tell them? And every single one of them told me they should do something different. If you can imagine. If you can imagine a life for yourself doing anything other than this, you should go do that.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yeah. Huh.

[Amy Somerville]

Because it's too hard for too long.

[Mike Nguyen]

But this seems almost like a trick, you know? Well, only the real ones. You. You're a little bit of a softy, so you should get out of here. So, you know, it's. It's kind of like, also goes up against the way I saw myself. I always was the smart kid in class, and it, like, took out one of the legs of my identity. Well, not only do I. Am I not smart, I clearly don't even have the wherewithal or the gumption to do this other thing. So now, what the hell, you know, I'm just. I'm just some guy with great style. Like what? Like, what else can I do?

[Yohei Shah]

Well, Mike, if it's okay, I want to go back to that moment with the coin toss.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yes.

[Yohei Shah]

It seems like you were very certain of how you felt about that decision in the moment. Like, it just felt bad to, like, listen to the coin and stay in physics.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yes.

[Yohei Shah]

And that's why you dropped out.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yep.

[Yohei Shah]

And then you said it felt awesome.

[Mike Nguyen]

It felt awesome.

[Yohei Shah]

And so I'm just curious. Why do you think you trusted your gut so much back then and why aren't you trusting it now?

[Mike Nguyen]

I think a lot of it has to do with, like, you're in college. You're, like, kind of a hedonist. You know, you're doing a lot of things because it feels good. You know, it felt good at the time. And I think sometimes I frame it as. That's a kind of an immature response that as a rational person, you should do the thing that may not feel good, but is the good thing, the thing that's right for whatever your family or yourself or what have you. And so I discount some of that action because, hey, we also grew up Catholic. You can layer that on top as well, so things which feel good are probably bad for you. Things that feel bad are probably good for you. So there is sort of that element as well.

[Amy Somerville]

So there's work by a researcher called Tori Higgins, who basically says we carry with us, like, two self guides of what we should be aspiring to. And one of them is he calls the ideal self. So, like, what is, like, the aspirational version of yourself that you like most want to be, and then what's your ought self? So, like, what are the, like, obligations and duties and the things you feel like you should be? The idea is that sort of, like, in general, our oughts are kind of easier to repair. Like, if there's a thing you should do, you can just go do it. I got up last night at 11:30 to be like, oh, God, did I close my garage door? It's that kind of like, oh, did you do the thing? Okay, now I can forget it. And there's some work in the regret science that actually, for most people, the things that we regret most over time are related to our ideal self. And it's sort of interesting to me that it sounds like it's kind of like your parents ideal more than your ideal, but also, you know, it kind of became ingrained in you, both as an obligation and because of your vision of who you are in the family that kind of like meeting their ideal became your ideal 100%.

[Mike Nguyen]

I have a bunch of questions for you. I hope that's okay to pack.

[Amy Somerville]

Yeah.

[Mike Nguyen]

One is, you know, I always wondered if it's like a. It's like a cultural thing, because the way the language I would describe is, it's not just my family. I'm Talking about, like, 1,000 generations of my family, you know, are pretty bummed out. It's a very Mulan situation. The ancestors are like, whoa, we sent this guy to America, and now this guy decided to go on this podcast. What's the deal with that? I don't know if there's anything where I don't want to say, like, my regret is more enhanced than other people. I'm sure other people have a tremendous amount of regret, but it's like, I feel sometimes that there's a cultural thing as well.

[Amy Somerville]

Yeah, I mean, so. So I've actually done some work on cross cultural stuff and not specifically with Vietnamese culture, so I want to be clear. Like, I don't have, like, specific expertise there.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yeah, yeah.

[Amy Somerville]

So I have a paper looking at Arab students compared to white Midwestern students. And they're right. Like, totally different understanding of Fate. It's really this idea of, like, your fate is written. So they actually basically don't report some of the patterns of counterfactuals that I was talking about earlier.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yeah.

[Amy Somerville]

So if you ask, hey, there's this car accident, how much is he thinking, oh, I should have taken another route? And people say, well, no, because if God wrote for him to have this accident, it doesn't matter what road he was on. Like, the accident was written. That was his fate.

[Mike Nguyen]

Right.

[Amy Somerville]

If it's his fate, you can't escape that. Yes, he probably feels bad that this accident happened, but that doesn't actually mean that he could have done anything different. So it's really interesting to me that for you, it's sort of this, like, I defied my fate.

[Mike Nguyen]

That's really sort of. The thing is that I always joke around again with my wife because, you know, me and my wife, we live in Brooklyn. We have these kind of artistic jobs, and I always joke with her that I'm supposed to be living in San Jose, driving a Tesla, married to a Vietnamese woman. We eat pho every single day. Maybe if I'm not a doctor, maybe I sell medical equipment. And I see this life over and over again. I'm not in it, but my cousins are in it. And every time I check in with them, I can't help but compare my life to their life. You know, it's like, who has a better life? And it gets complicated, but it is there, right? And I'm confronted with the other one, the other me. Right. And I often say, I'm not supposed to be here. How many Vietnamese comedians can you even name? You know? Like, there's only, like, three of us. And so I'm constantly grappling with this fact that I chose something different. My life turned out radically different.

[Amy Somerville]

Yeah. So that there's definitely, like, pieces of the regret literature that speak to that. I was, like, writing down all sorts of things as you were talking.

[Mike Nguyen]

It's a little embarrassing for me to.

[Amy Somerville]

Say, no, not at all. So there's sort of two pieces of a counterfactual, Right. There's the, like, if I had done this, then this other thing would have been different. And so you can imagine all sorts of counterfactuals that you can have where, I don't know, like, if aliens had invaded today, then my son could have ice cream for dinner. And it's like, well, okay, the first is so improbable that that doesn't even make sense. Sense as a thing. But you have this really Clear. Like, if I had made another decision. Right. Like, it's really easy to imagine walking into the physics class instead of the registrar's office.

[Mike Nguyen]

Right.

[Amy Somerville]

Like, Frost writes this whole poem about the road I didn't travel, and I kind of don't know what was down there. But, like, your cousins are walking that road.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yes.

[Amy Somerville]

You can really clearly see, like, here's what would have been different if you too, had stayed on that path. But counterfactuals aren't the only comparisons out there. Social comparison also is a thing and has its own set of emotions that go with it. Like, envy and pride are kind of the, like, cousins of regret and relief. And it's interesting to me that it feels like regret to you and not like, oh, I feel envious of this person who's living the life that I was supposed to have. It is about your decision and not about, like, oh, I want their life.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yes.

[Yohei Shah]

That's a question. Do you want their life?

[Mike Nguyen]

No.

[Yohei Shah]

You know, that was an immediate answer, Mike.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yeah, I mean, there are some things I would enjoy for sure. I think I would like stability for my family, for my kids, but I don't want to drive a Tesla. I would love to eat pho every single week. That would be great. But as far as, like, actually being implanted into their life, it doesn't sound appealing either. You know what I'm saying? This is really interesting. I never thought about it, like, envy versus regret, huh?

[Yohei Shah]

After the break, we get to the root of Mike's regret and how regret can be hopeful, even useful emotion. Welcome back to Praxi. So, picking up where we left off, Amy now wants to go back to the coin toss. The fateful day when Mike flipped the coin and dropped the class, even though the coin told him to stay in pre med.

[Amy Somerville]

I wrote down that when you talked about, like, it felt amazing. It felt awesome. And I never looked back. And it was like, but, but, but you are so.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yeah, yeah, no, that's a. That's a really good point. Point. Yeah, you got me there, guys.

[Amy Somerville]

Haha. Problem solved.

[Mike Nguyen]

No, but you are onto something, because there was a period of time where I didn't feel bad about it. I was still in college. I knew people who were going to med school. And actually, the woman who is now my wife, she was also in the track. She went really far. She took the mcat, but she didn't go to medical school. And I remember when she was studying, I got to take the MCAT tomorrow. And I was like, that sounds terrible. I don't have to do it. So for a little while, it didn't bother me that much. But it wasn't very long lasting. I remember after I graduated, I moved back to Orange county in California, where, you know, my parents lived, and I was living with him. And I had a very hard time finding a job. I couldn't even really articulate what kind of job I was looking for. My parents were, like, throwing all sorts of hilarious job titles at me. Become a human resources guy. They were, like, literally just naming jobs that they had, like, seen on tv. They all sounded terrible to me. I was like, these jobs sound so boring. And so I was unemployed. I was in my 20s. I felt like a big loser. And I remember that's when I was like, oh, maybe I could go back to med school. And that's really where I was. Like, now I'm like, kind of in this loop.

[Amy Somerville]

Interesting. Yeah. And so it sounds like it was only when there was other stuff in your life that was kind of dissatisfying, that then it was like, oh, maybe the thing that would have made all this better is if I'd gone to med school.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yes.

[Amy Somerville]

I think sometimes we have regrets where it sort of comes from the negative emotion. First, like, something feels bad, and then we just sort of want to look around and be like, well, what is it that could have changed this? When I talk to people about regret, it's like, oh, you're a regret researcher. Like, do you have regrets? And I'm like, I don't have, like, a ton. And I don't have a ton that I really want to talk about. But, like, I will sort of broadly say I've had a traumatic loss. And if, you know people who have gone through that, whether it's losing someone to suicide or violence or addiction or whatever, that oftentimes. And in the data, right. You see people saying, like, oh, if I had just done something different.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yes.

[Amy Somerville]

If I'd had a better intervention, then my friend wouldn't have OD'd.

[Mike Nguyen]

Right.

[Amy Somerville]

Or if I had agreed to go to the party, then I could have been the DD and they wouldn't have driven drunk and been in the accident. Certainly in your case. Right. Like, there really was this path and there really was this decision. But it's also the case that, like, one of the great secrets of adulthood is that actually, like, being right out of college kind of sucks. You had this idyllic experience of all of your needs were catered to as if you were a child.

[Mike Nguyen]

All your friends. Yeah.

[Amy Somerville]

All your friends were right there and yet also, you had all this independence of adulthood. It's really kind of the sweet spot. At least at Amherst Lake. Someone else cooked for me every day of my college career. And then suddenly you get out and it's like, oh, God, I have to go to the grocery store. I have more than three hours of obligation a day. This is crazy. How does anyone live? Like, yeah. And so I do wonder a little bit about how much of it is. Being 23 sucks.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yes.

[Amy Somerville]

And latching onto. Here's the thing that I know could have been different, and it would have put me in this totally different place. And, like, if you didn't have that, is there some other counterfactual you would have generated in that moment? But for you, there was just this clear, like, oh, yeah, maybe it was med school.

[Mike Nguyen]

School.

[Amy Somerville]

Some people have the romantic one that got away from college, and you have the career that got away.

[Mike Nguyen]

The career that got away. It is interesting because it almost feels almost sometimes like a default excuse. I don't know. I was very interested in econ. Maybe I could have become a finance guy, but I never think I'm like, oh, I should have become a finance guy. Because I'm like, that seems so odd. I guess I could have become an NFL football player. There's all sorts of weird things you could say, but it defaults always to this. This one thing.

[Yohei Shah]

Well, Mike, when the regret pops up, does it happen around times when, like, stuff is hard and bad, or is it just all the time, kind of, like randomly?

[Mike Nguyen]

I mean, I would definitely say. I think it is definitely triggered by things where I need something. Like, gosh, my wife and I are, like, always like, we want to buy a house, and it's impossible to because I'm not a billionaire. So it would be nice if I had a little bit more money, you know, or during this layoff that just happened.

[Yohei Shah]

Yeah.

[Mike Nguyen]

And this is another thing I was going to ask you about is, like, this career that I have, whether it's in advertising or even worse, in comedy, it is only setbacks. Comedy is almost entirely setback after setback until you were either famous or you were dead. And that is it. And so you're constantly confronted with, did you make the right decision? Why did you spend so much time doing this thing? You know, I've been doing comedy for maybe, gosh, I don't know, like, 10 or 11 years or at this point. And I've sunk an immense amount of time into it. Going to open mics or writing, which generate absolutely zero income, just doing this thing because I. I feel sometimes I have no other choice to do it because I feel I am a creative person and I'm. I have to do it, and I'm an idiot. But every single time I'm there, I'm like, I could be somewhere else.

[Yohei Shah]

I'm wondering, is this regret around becoming a doctor, is it about success and how you're feeling about yourself rather than, like, this particular regret around becoming a doctor?

[Mike Nguyen]

I think it is definitely, like, am I living up to my full potential? For lack of a better word, am I doing, you know, the most I can do? And I was just saying, like, I have to be a creative person. And it's led me to this point, and sometimes I feel guilty about that. You know, I have a lot of anxiety around, like, well, I've chosen this life, and I hope my children don't have to pay for it later on because, like, they didn't get into a great school or something like that. Well, that gets into a whole other thing. But I'm, like, tearing up a little bit. Sorry. So, like, it's just. It's. It's a lot. It's, like, kind of weird.

[Yohei Shah]

Yeah.

[Mike Nguyen]

I'm just kind of getting emotional, I guess. It's just like, for me and my wife, we're, like, creative people, and, like, if I pay the price for it, it's my life, but I don't want anyone else to pay for my own weakness or hedonism or whatever you want to call it. You know what I'm saying? Like, my children didn't ask for that. That's a whole other thing. Yeah.

[Amy Somerville]

Yeah. I'm a parent, too, and so I totally get, like. I feel like so much of parenthood is about, you brought this person into the world, you have this obligation to them. Am I meeting that kind of role that I'm supposed to be fulfilling? But I think it's easy to think about. Here's the things that would be better if I was a doctor. Like, I might have more career stability, more financial stability, but also, there's stuff you'd be giving up and you'd be regretting that, oh, my kid is sick, and I had to have the nanny pick them up. I'm in clinic right now, and I can't just drop it and go home and, like, take care of my kid. And, like, oh, I can't go to that game. Oh, now I'm letting my kid down in all these other ways.

[Mike Nguyen]

That's absolutely right.

[Amy Somerville]

I feel like maybe one of the things that I do want to say is that in general, I come from, like, an academic tradition of thinking of regret as, like, a really useful emotion to us.

[Mike Nguyen]

Oh.

[Amy Somerville]

Like, regret is telling us about how we should do things differently.

[Yohei Shah]

Mike, why did your mouth open when Amy said regret is a useful emotion?

[Mike Nguyen]

Yeah, I mean, I. I've always thought of this as just like something I'm just gonna have to deal with for the rest of my life.

[Amy Somerville]

For me, I think it can be really helpful to kind of think about, is this regret helping me? Is there something here that I could learn? Is there something I could do different, differently? And if not, is it really a regret? Or do I just sort of feel sad again with sort of examples of things like traumatic loss? I don't really think, oh, like, here's the one action I could have taken and everything would have been okay. I'm just sad. I'm sad this thing happened, and I wish there was something that could have made it different.

[Mike Nguyen]

Wow.

[Amy Somerville]

Yeah. Like, it really sucks to live in a high cost of living area where you can't buy a house. Yeah, it really sucks to live under capitalism with economic instability. But even if you had gone to med school, what are the things that would be different? Maybe it's stable, but there are these other costs that come with it.

[Mike Nguyen]

I don't know. Maybe this is because I'm just a straight man with toxic masculinity, but the idea that I'm just sad is so profound. Oh, I'm just sad. You know, next time I feel this coming on, maybe I'm just bummed out. And there is a lot of stuff to be bummed out about globally and in a micro sense. It sounds really silly, but I've never thought of it like, just being sad. Wow. I mean, I've done therapy before where you take an emotion and you kind of look at it and say, well, this anxiety is because maybe I need to pay attention to something in my life. But there is also emotions, I think, where there is nothing to do. This is just how it is to kind of understand that there is no action is very freeing because you could just be sad. But I'm bummed out. I'm gonna have a candy bar now and just deal with it.

[Yohei Shah]

Yeah, well. So, Amy, you said that regret can be a useful emotion. Regret can tell us what is important to us. And what I'm hearing from this conversation again and again, Mike, is like, family is really important to you, right?

[Mike Nguyen]

Yes.

[Yohei Shah]

Family. Your relationship with your parents, your relationship with your community, your kids. Like, family, family, family. And if you were gonna think about this regret you have take away all the bad parts, all the anxieties, all the bad feelings. What do you think it's pointing at?

[Mike Nguyen]

Yeah, I mean, gosh, you think about the inverse of regret, which is, like, all the things which are awesome, you know, And I have a lot of awesome things. My amazing knitwear, for example. Right.

[Yohei Shah]

Do you have to give that up.

[Amy Somerville]

And live in scrubs? Can you imagine?

[Mike Nguyen]

I hate scrubs so much. It's the worst thing in the world anyways. I feel the most fulfilled. The specific moment is when I am in the kitchen and my wife is feeding both my kids or one of my kids, and I'm, like, running food to them. I'm, like, cooking food. You know, my wife is like, okay, we need boiled eggs, because that's the only thing he's gonna eat. I'm like, on it. Boiled egg stat. You know, the front of house wants eggs. I gotta make eggs.

[Amy Somerville]

I'm kind of like a line cook.

[Mike Nguyen]

But I feel awesome because I feel like I am, you know, providing for my family. Literally. You know, I'm the perfect, like, thing in the machine that is making this happen. It's very actionable and doable. But, you know, with my children, I'm trying to think about values I want to give them. And I think that it is worthwhile to try hard. It's not a good thing, I think, to just do the minimum. And so I think I do regret maybe not giving my all. Maybe I didn't want to be a doctor, but I do think there was probably a little bit of me I left on the table as far as, like, I didn't work as hard as I could have. I think I corrected that later on in life, but I want to be able to say that I gave it my all.

[Yohei Shah]

Okay, we are near the end. Thank you both so much. This was such a roller coaster. Okay, final question. Mike, I asked you to vocalize the sound of your niche emotional conundrum way back when.

[Mike Nguyen]

Oh, yeah.

[Yohei Shah]

Many, many months ago. And you told me it was elevator music, like, waiting music.

[Mike Nguyen]

Ah, yes, I did. Yes.

[Yohei Shah]

I'm curious, what is the sound of the niche emotional conundrum now? Has it changed at all?

[Mike Nguyen]

No, this is different. Because now I forgot that I had said Muzak. And I totally remember why I said Muzak, because it was sort of like, I feel like my life is, like, on hold or waiting. I'm waiting for something now. It just feels like, ugh, now I gotta do work on myself. Oh, that's so much. That's so much harder. I think med school is probably easier than working on myself. I don't want to do that.

[Yohei Shah]

So it's a groan.

[Mike Nguyen]

Oh, yes. Thank you, Dr. Amy. This is. This is awesome.

[Amy Somerville]

It's been so great getting to meet you and getting to talk to you.

[Yohei Shah]

Thank you to Mike Nguyen for being our special guest today. You can listen to Mike every week on his podcast Asian Not Asian. And you can check out his American Prosperity core outfits on Instagram icepantsbro. And thank you to Amy Somerville for being our proxy today. As Amy pointed out to me, much of the social science research that informs today's episode is now the target of massive funding cuts across several government agencies. But she said there is something you can do about it. You can let your elected officials know about the impact this research has had on you. You can find out more by going to the website for the Consortium of social science associations, cossa.org that's the show we have for you this week. We'll be back with a new episode on Tuesday, May 20. New episodes every other Tuesday for the rest of the year, which Chrissy, a listener from Philadelphia, is thrilled about because she loves gossiping about proxy episodes with friends. Hi. Hey, Chrissy. What do you. What do you have over there?

[Mike Nguyen]

This is an apple. My friend Andrew got it for me at the Wegmans.

[Yohei Shah]

So you like eating apples, huh?

[Mike Nguyen]

Yeah, I love apples.

[Yohei Shah]

And what about proxy? You like proxy?

[Mike Nguyen]

I love proxy. I love feelings and talking about them.

[Yohei Shah]

Okay, so if you had to do some proxy math, how many Golden Delicious apples is a proxy episode worth to you?

[Amy Somerville]

Nine.

[Yohei Shah]

Nine Golden Delicious apples. If we're talking organic, that's like $13.50. She's willing to pay per episode, but because she's a Patreon member, for just $5 a month, Chrissy's getting a steal. Roxy is an independent podcast and we rely on listener support. We need to get to at least 3,000 subscribers this year to keep making the show, and we are at about 300 right now. Thank you to everyone who's already signed up. For just $5 a month, you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus interviews. So be thrifty like Chrissy. Sign [e-mail] ProxyPodcast that's patreon.com ProxyPodcast as always, you can find. Follow us on Instagram proxypodcast and I'm oueshaw. We also have a free newsletter. Sign up to get dispatches from the emotions, beat behind the scenes content, and the latest proxy gossip. We'll have those links in the show. Notes this episode was edited by John Delor and Tim Howard, produced by me and mixed by Kyle Pooley. Proxy is also produced by Kim Nadervane Petersa with help from Anna Karan Santana and Nick LeBlanc. Our newsletter editor is Juliana Feliciana Reyes. Music in this episode by Tim Howard and theme music by Breakmaster Cylinder. Special thanks to Audrey Martovic, Yuri Lozordo, Laura Starcheski and Mathilde Ervalino. Proxy is a proud member of Radiotopia from prx, a network of independent, creator owned listener supported podcasts. Discover audio with vision at Radiotopia FM and if you have a niche emotional conundrum you'd like investigated by Proxy, get in [e-mail] we're taking cases Kyle, how often do you regret marrying a podcast host?

[Mike Nguyen]

I think it's a good counterbalance to.

[Amy Somerville]

Someone marrying a music producer. So anytime I have complaints, I realize that things that ex girlfriends would complain about me.

[Yohei Shah]

Oh, like all your complaints about me? That's what your exes would say about you.

[Mike Nguyen]

Yeah.

[Yohei Shah]

So it's karma in a way. It's poetic justice.

[Amy Somerville]

Yeah. Except I didn't make them mix my podcast. Radiotopia from PRX.