Proxy with Yowei Shaw

Episode: "Nicole Can't Stop Being Aggro"

Release Date: December 2, 2025
Host: Yowei Shaw
Guests: Nicole (labor organizer), Dr. Deborah "Debbie" Gold (political theorist, former ACT UP activist)

Overview

This episode of Proxy dives deep into the “knotty” emotional conundrum of being stuck in “aggro” (anger) mode as an activist. Nicole, a passionate labor organizer, struggles with containing her activism-fueled anger, especially as it leaks into her personal life. To help unravel this, host Yowei Shaw connects Nicole with Dr. Deborah Gold, a queer Jewish theorist and veteran of the AIDS activist group ACT UP. Together, they explore the interplay of anger, grief, camaraderie, and sustainability in activist cultures—spanning decades and generations.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Nicole: The Perpetual “Aggro” Organizer

• Nicole is a high-achieving, high-intensity labor organizer.
• Two sides: Party-starter Nicole (fun, lively, social) vs. “Aggro” Nicole (intense, scary, unfiltered)
• Nicole on her intensity:

  “I stand on business that I will scare your boyfriend and your husband and then I will be happy about that.” (05:10)

• Her anger is both a driving force and a liability: It propels her work, but she worries about its toll on relationships and self-regulation.

2. The Function—and Fallout—of Anger in Activism

• Anger as Fuel: Nicole views anger as sustaining, effective, and necessary for change.

  “Anger is easy for me to feel...It is fueling...I think more people need to get mad.” (06:14)

• But Anger Spilling Over: She recognizes when “aggro mode” in social settings alienates friends, causes regret, and hurts loved ones.

  “You can like, see their little whale-eyed stares...I’m not acting as kindly to other people as I want or to myself.” (07:11)

3. Avoiding Grief Through Activism

• Nicole’s theory: Staying in organizing mode is a way to outrun grief about injustice.

  “Grief is such an overwhelming feeling...If I slow down to feel it, then it will just, like, totally overtake me.” (09:44)

• A rare exception: Watching videos of ACT UP activists and letting herself cry—"a safer place to have an emotion.” (11:30)

4. Seeking Advice from the Past: Enter Dr. Debbie Gold

• Debbie’s Background: Former ACT UP Chicago member, now a political theorist at UC Santa Cruz.
• Debbie’s parallels: Also queer, Jewish, anti-Zionist, a union organizer, and immersed in activism for years.

  “Obsessed with your biography already.” —Nicole to Debbie (16:13)

5. ACT UP: Anger and Action in the Face of Crisis

• ACT UP Response: Anger at governmental and societal indifference to the AIDS crisis was channeled into major victories.

  “That grief was really jarring to me because I had really mostly felt anger. And so I kind of was undone by doing the research. I fell apart.” —Debbie (19:53)

• No space for “bad” feelings: Grief and despair were suppressed within ACT UP, and “Don’t mourn, organize” became the ethos.

  “We didn’t really want to talk about it or allow it.” —Debbie (21:54)

• Meetings opened with a “moment of rage” rather than a “moment of silence.” (26:03)

6. The Risks of Suppressing Grief

• Suppressed grief led to burnout and silent exits: Members quietly left when they couldn’t process despair collectively.

  “A lot of people just kind of exited, quietly exited the movement...because we created no space for it, [despair] was incredibly individualizing and almost shameful.” —Debbie (43:06)

7. Emotional Cultures in Movements: Then vs. Now

• Nicole sometimes feels out-of-sync with today’s focus on emotional processing in activist spaces, preferring action over endless group therapy.

  “Some people can hold a group hostage by their particular strong feeling...That’s not appropriate.” —Debbie (29:25)

• Counterpoint: It’s not about either/or, but “both/and”—action and feeling can coexist (30:41).

8. Other Emotions: Joy, Erotic Energy, Camaraderie

• ACT UP was more than anger: Meetings were marked by humor, eroticism, joy, intensity—members flirted, joked, and partied together.

  “It was very sexy...Just really good looking people, you know. Very queer. Very, very queer.” —Debbie (34:58)

• Humor and fun: “We were living at such a high pitch where you felt like you were engaging in really meaningful work...Even in the face of all the death, it was so fun.” —Debbie (39:31)
• Nicole: “It’s like that element which is just actually true kind of collective camaraderie, that’s the gateway drug to me...is genuinely having fun.” (41:31)

9. Sustainability & the Lessons of Collapse

• ACT UP's demise: Suppressing despair made it individual and shameful, contributing to the group's eventual dissolution.
• Nicole asks: Could collectivizing grief have sustained ACT UP longer?
• Debbie:

  “It’s hard to say...But a lot of energy can go into disavowing a feeling...just at the level of energy and being able to continue on, I think figuring out ways to deal with [grief]...not in ways that derail the movement...inventive ways, creative ways.” (44:58)

10. Advice Across Generations

• Nicole: Afraid that if she faces grief, she’ll lose her organizing edge.
• Debbie:

  “I don’t think it really would take you out of the struggle...A movement can’t sustain itself if people feel like, ‘I’m the only one who can do this.’ Everybody needs to take a break.” (47:22)

• Crying as leadership development: Feeling the full spectrum of emotion is strategic, not merely therapeutic.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On “aggro” as reputation:

  “Nicole’s kind of scary...Unfortunately, that’s literally flattering to me.”
  —Nicole & Yowei (05:20–05:30)

• On channeling anger:

  “We need to convert [our emotions]. Don’t mourn, organize. Turn your grief into rage.”
  —Debbie (25:54)

• On ACT UP culture:

  “The uniform was white T-shirts, cut-off jeans, combat boots, Doc Martens, piercings and tattoos. Just really good-looking people, you know. Very queer. Very, very queer.”
  —Debbie (34:58)

• On internal conflict:

  “People would say, ‘Where’s your anger?’...And it was a very complicated moment where within the movement, there was so much desperation, such a scarcity mentality…”
  —Debbie (31:13)

• On fun and sustainability in activism:

  “It’s like such a buzzkill to talk about—our movements need joy. I don’t want to party with anyone who’s speaking very tenderly about joy. But I think it’s really important for people to have fun.”
  —Nicole (40:40)

• On the risk of suppressing despair:

  “Because we created no space for it, [despair] was incredibly individualizing and almost shameful...I think that contributed to the movement’s demise.”
  —Debbie (43:06)

• On carrying the baton:

  “They can't really put anything back in the bottle...because we carry it forward.”
  —Debbie (49:23)

Timestamps for Notable Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------| | 05:00–07:11 | Nicole on being “aggro”, scaring friends, struggling with anger in personal life | | 09:22–11:34 | Nicole on avoiding grief, using ACT UP videos as outlet for sadness | | 15:13–16:50 | Introduction of Dr. Deborah Gold; setting up parallels between Nicole & Debbie | | 19:53–21:54 | Debbie on anger as coping in ACT UP, the absence of grief processing | | 25:54–26:03 | ACT UP’s culture: “Don’t mourn, organize” and the “moment of rage” meeting openings | | 31:13–32:50 | Navigating emotional cultures in activism (now vs. then) | | 34:56–39:31 | The highs of ACT UP—erotic energy, camaraderie, “the ACT UP uniform” | | 43:06–44:58 | The cost of unacknowledged group grief, the slow dissolution of ACT UP | | 47:13–48:42 | Advice: Balancing action and feeling, emotional sustainability in activist work | | 49:23 | Cross-generational inspiration and the endurance of activist legacies |

Tone & Style

The episode is raw, direct, and conversational—blending activism’s urgency with vulnerability, irreverent humor, and candid emotion. Yowei remains empathetic and probing, while Nicole is self-aware, unabashed, and endearingly blunt. Debbie offers deep reflection, historical perspective, and generational wisdom, with a tone of both nostalgia and realism.

Summary Takeaways

• Anger has a crucial role in movements against injustice but can be corrosive if not matched by spaces for collective grief, joy, and camaraderie.
• Sustaining activism requires “both/and”: action and feeling, rage and mourning, seriousness and levity.
• Suppressing vulnerability—in the name of toughing it out or focusing only on “the real work”—carries hidden long-term costs for movements and individuals.
• New generations of activists inherit not just strategies, but emotional cultures, and can benefit from learning how affect and sustainability intertwine.
• Legacy is forward-looking: “They can’t put it back in the bottle because we carry it forward.”

Recommended for listeners who wrestle with the personal cost of activism, the emotional dynamics of social movements, or anyone seeking cross-generational wisdom on how to stay in the fight—without losing yourself.

Further Reading:

• "Moving Politics: Emotion and ACT UP's Fight Against AIDS" by Deborah B. Gould
• (Bonus: Watch historic ACT UP meeting footage for the full “aggro”/joy/chaos effect.)

If you have a knotty emotional conundrum, you can reach out to Proxy at proxythepod@gmail.com.