Presenting: Alternate Realities (from NPR's Embedded)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Proxy with Yowei Shaw – "Presenting: Alternate Realities (from NPR's Embedded)"

Release Date: March 6, 2025
Duration: Approximately 36 minutes
Guests: Zach Mack (Reporter from NPR's Embedded), Shankar Vedantam (Host of Hidden Brain)

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Introduction

In this episode of Proxy with Yowei Shaw, hosted by Yowei Shaw of Y3 Productions, the focus shifts to a compelling story originally presented on NPR's Embedded podcast. The episode delves into Zach Mack's deeply personal three-part series titled "Alternate Realities," which explores the impact of conspiracy theories on family dynamics and personal relationships.

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Background: Understanding "Alternate Realities"

Zach Mack, a dedicated reporter for NPR's Embedded, embarks on a personal mission to comprehend and mitigate the influence of conspiracy theories on his family, particularly concerning his father's deep-seated beliefs. The series "Alternate Realities" chronicles Zach's year-long experiment— a bet with his father over the validity of various conspiracy predictions for the year 2024.

Key Points:

• The Bet: Zach's father, a staunch believer in multiple conspiracy theories, challenges Zach to a bet. He presents ten predictions for 2024, wagering $10,000 that he is correct. If the predictions fail to materialize, Zach wins the cash, and his father agrees to acknowledge he was wrong.
• Personal Stakes: Beyond the financial aspect, the bet symbolizes Zach's hope to bridge the growing chasm between him and his father, striving to pull his father back from the brink of extremist beliefs.

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Main Discussion: The Father's Conspiracy Theories and Family Impact

The conversation navigates the intricate web of emotions, distrust, and familial strain caused by the father's unwavering belief in conspiracy theories.

Notable Quotes:

• Zach Mack (05:25): "That's just sort of part of being an editor..."—highlighting the pervasive nature of conspiracy theories in daily life.
• Mark Twain Misattribution (05:38 - 06:13): Zach shares a quote attributed to Mark Twain: "It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled." After discovering its misattribution, he reflects on the pervasive issue of misinformation.

Key Themes:

• Intergenerational Trauma: Zach draws parallels between his father's current state and his grandfather's downfall due to similar stubbornness and distrust in institutions.
• Emotional Toll: The family's relationships suffer immensely. Marriage strains, children distancing themselves, and a community of believers further isolating the father.

Quotes Illustrating Struggle:

• Zach Mack (12:20): "Dad's friends clearly thought he was going the wrong way."—emphasizing the isolation from former social circles.
• Shankar Vedantam (16:08): "You could probably debunk one of your dad's ideas, one of his conspiracy theories, but you're just playing whack a mole."—highlighting the futility of confronting conspiracy beliefs with facts alone.

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Insights from Experts

To deepen the understanding of conspiracy theories' psychological underpinnings, the episode features insights from notable experts:

1. Joseph Uszynski (Political Scientist, University of Miami):

   • Perspective: Conspiracy theories are manifestations of deeper psychological needs and identities.
   • Quote (16:22): "It's not until you get under the hood and start dealing with the predisposition."
   • Insight: Challenging conspiracy beliefs requires addressing the foundational beliefs and emotions driving them, rather than merely presenting factual counterarguments.

2. Dr. Bradley Onishi (Professor and Former Evangelical Minister):

   • Perspective: Religious extremism and conspiracy theories provide individuals with a sense of purpose and belonging.
   • Quote (18:14): "It invites them into a cosmic battle. It gives their life this sense of transcendence."
   • Insight: Conspiracy theories often position believers as heroes in a grand narrative, fulfilling emotional and existential needs.

3. Charlie Safford (Clinical Therapist):

   • Perspective: Conspiracy theories function as emotional coping mechanisms.
   • Quote (22:05): "Conspiracy theories are fundamentally emotional coping mechanisms."
   • Insight: Addressing the emotional roots of conspiracy beliefs is essential for effective intervention.

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Emotional and Familial Struggles

The episode poignantly captures the emotional devastation experienced by families embroiled in conspiracy beliefs.

Key Highlights:

• Mother's Estrangement: Zach's mother begins sleeping in a separate bedroom to distance herself from the toxic environment created by his father's beliefs.
• Sister's Departure: After consecutive Christmases marred by familial conflict, Zach's sister opts out of future gatherings to preserve her well-being.
• Personal Isolation: Zach grapples with feelings of helplessness and the fear of irreparable family damage.

Notable Interaction:

• Yowei Shaw (26:12): "I can't keep living with crazy."—expressing the emotional strain and desire for escape from the turmoil.

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Confronting and Understanding

Zach's journey involves introspection and seeking professional guidance to navigate his father's conspiracy-laden worldview.

Strategies Discussed:

• Communication Attempts: Zach tries to engage his father in meaningful conversations, hoping to foster understanding and change.
• Professional Help: Consulting experts to devise strategies beyond mere fact-checking, focusing on the emotional and psychological aspects.

Quotes Reflecting Efforts:

• Shankar Vedantam (34:50): "Help me understand why you believe what you believe."—a suggested approach for meaningful dialogue.
• Zach Mack (35:06): "As I prepared to have our final conversation, it felt like maybe he had it in him."—highlighting a moment of hope amidst ongoing struggles.

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Conclusion: Ongoing Struggles and Unresolved Tensions

Despite Zach's efforts and the temporary closeness achieved, the bet's impending deadline underscores the uncertain future of familial relationships.

Final Thoughts:

• Bet's Outcome Uncertainty: With none of the father's predictions coming to fruition, Zach remains hopeful yet apprehensive about the future.
• Emotional Reconciliation: The episode concludes without a clear resolution, emphasizing the lingering pain and the complexity of disentangling deeply ingrained beliefs from personal relationships.

Closing Quote:

• Shankar Vedantam (35:19): "All the conversations we've had... every penny's been worth it."—Zach acknowledges the invaluable personal growth and understanding gained through this arduous journey.

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Key Takeaways

• Complexity of Belief Systems: Conspiracy theories are not merely about misinformation but are intertwined with identity, community, and emotional needs.
• Impact on Family Dynamics: Deep-seated beliefs can fracture familial bonds, leading to isolation and emotional distress.
• Need for Compassionate Approaches: Addressing conspiracy beliefs necessitates empathy, understanding, and addressing underlying emotional drivers rather than solely presenting facts.

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This episode of Proxy with Yowei Shaw offers a profound exploration into the human psyche, the allure of conspiracy theories, and the devastating ripple effects they can have on personal relationships. Through Zach Mack's intimate narrative and expert insights, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the emotional landscapes that underpin extremist beliefs.

Transcript

[Shankar Vedantam]

Shankar. I'm Shankar Vedantam, here to tell you about a great mystery. That mystery is you. As the host of a podcast called Hidden Brain, I explore big questions about what it means to be human. Questions like, where do our emotions come from? Why do so many of us feel overwhelmed by modern life? How can we better understand the people around us? Discovery your hidden brain. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Yowei Shaw]

Hey, everybody, it's Yowei. Welcome to Proxy. You might be asking, what's the occasion? Yoe? Why back in the feed so soon? Well, we wanted to give you the exact date of when we're officially launching in case April rolls around and you're like, where is Proxy? It's coming in late April, April 22. And from there on out, we will be publishing every two weeks on Tuesdays. And we also wanted to pop in to provide more evidence that we have in fact been working on new episodes for you.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Hey, Yowei, this is John. I'm gonna record this voice memo for you.

[Yowei Shaw]

This is John Delor, another editor of Proxy, who is the only colleague I've had who leaves notes in 30 minute long voice memos.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Do you like voice memos, Yowi? I guess I could have asked that question a long time ago. Do you hate voice memos? Maybe they annoy you greatly.

[Yowei Shaw]

Thanks for finally asking, John. I actually hate voice memos, but I have come to treasure yours. Anyway, John is someone who spends a lot of time in scripts with me, trying to figure stories out and. And so, just like me, he's often swimming in the questions and ideas of the niche emotional conundrums we're trying to solve.

[Shankar Vedantam]

That's just sort of part of being an editor is that, you know, like, you get done with an edit and you go to eat dinner and you start telling your wife and kids about how we've all been defining forgiveness incorrectly. But now that I work at home all the time, there's no water cooler, there's the dinner table. So, like, my 8 year old is just like, what's a counterfactual, daddy?

[Yowei Shaw]

All right, hope that was enough proof for you to hang on till April 22. Until then, we have one last story from another show to share. One of the reasons I'm so passionate about emotional investigative journalism is because we know by now emotions drive behavior, and boy, is there a lot of irrational, alarming behavior happening in the world right now. One of the most enduring and high stakes examples of this is conspiracy theories and how many Americans believe in them. You know, the greatest hits, the 2020 election, being stolen, Covid vaccines, having microchips, QAnon. The list unfortunately goes on. A recent study found that 35% of the country believes that there is a single group of people who secretly rule the world. All of this has been thoroughly debunked, and yet people still believe. And what I want to know is conspiracy theories. They've been a thing for a while. They've been gaining traction in our politics all the way to the highest seats of power. So what do we do about this? And are there emotional dynamics at play that we need to understand? Zach Mack is a reporter who's been on a mission to figure this out for his family. Growing up, Zach's dad was the lone Christian conservative in their family and social circle. But it wasn't until the pandemic hit that he started getting more vocal with his views. Bristling at mask wearing, refusing to get vaccinated, eventually believing that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump. Zach actually tried to warn his dad about QAnon, thinking if he told his dad about it in advance, it would take away its power. But that didn't work. And then last year, Zach's dad sent him a strange email asking Zach if he'd be willing to bet $10,000 to settle once and for all who was correct and who was the brainwashed one. Zach's dad listed 10 predictions that he knew were going to happen in 2024, like martial law being imposed, Obama, Pelosi, Biden, and the Clintons all being tried for treason. And if these predictions didn't pan out, Zach's dad said he would admit he was wrong and Zach would win the cash. Embedded is a great NPR podcast that brings untold stories like this to light through deeply reported narrative series. For NPR's Embedded podcast, Zach Mack reported a three part series called Alternate Realities about what happened with the bet and his quest to pull his dad back from the brink. We're going to play one of the episodes, but you should definitely listen to the whole series when you get a chance. Here's the episode.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So Mark Twain had a famous quote. He said if voting really mattered, they wouldn't let us do it.

[Zach Mack]

That's.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Isn't that great?

[Zach Mack]

I mean, it's a good quote. After my dad and I started this year long experiment, this bet, he and I began talking a lot more. But the more we talked, the harder both of us clung to the idea that only one of us was right. Can I read you a Mark Twain quote that I was thinking about just this weekend?

[Shankar Vedantam]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Zach Mack]

And I was thinking about it. In relationship to conspiracy theorists, Mark Twain said this. It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Yeah, I would agree that. I would agree with that 100%.

[Zach Mack]

Herein lies my conflict with you. I got. I gotta convince you that you.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Exactly. Mine with you. Mine with you. Right. We're on the. We're on the same page here.

[Zach Mack]

Funny thing about that quote my dad just used. I found out later that it's fake. Mark Twain never actually said that. But even funnier is the quote that I used as a rebuttal. Well, Mark Twain never said that either. Proof we could both be wrong. I guess in the end, misinformation comes for us all. But hey, that's why we have fact checkers. A couple of months into our bet, and I was still feeling good about things. Still no EMP device used to take down the grid. No sign of Obama, Pelosi, Biden, or the Clintons being tried for treason. The governor and mayor of New York still had their jobs, and no sign of martial law being imposed anywhere. To be honest, I wasn't worried about the outcome of these predictions. For me, the bet wasn't just about proving him wrong or winning $10,000. It was about changing his mind. And that's the part I was worried about, because I really didn't understand why my father believed what he believed. In fact, I wasn't sure I understood him much at. Lately I've been thinking back to this argument I had with my dad years ago. I was home visiting my parents and we went to one of our favorite restaurants. I can't remember the specifics about what he and I were arguing about, but it had to have been about politics. I mostly remember how it felt because it got contentious and it ended with my father getting the last word. He said, well, you don't really know me. And that stopped me dead in my tracks because despite 30 plus years of history, I wondered if he might be right. Maybe I didn't really know him. And so if I had any hope of changing his mind, I was going to need to learn a lot more about him and figure out why he seemed so prepared to give up so much, including his own family. So last year, that's what I set out to do. From NPR's Embedded, I'm Zach Mak, and this is Alternate Realities. In order to get to know my father, one of the first places I thought to start was with the people around him. I reached out to four of his closest friends to get Their take Curious if they also thought he had a problem with reality. You talked to my dad the other day.

[Shankar Vedantam]

We had an interesting conversation. He did share with me his prophecies.

[Zach Mack]

This is Chuck. He's my father's oldest friend. They've known each other over 40 years. Back when dad was a very different guy.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Your father had frosted hair. When I first met him, he was a fun guy and pretty liberal and smoked pot more than I did. And he lived with this drag queen, and so, you know, there was a wild kind of party atmosphere around him.

[Zach Mack]

Chuck is like the one friend my dad has held onto from his old life in the Midwest. They've been living apart since the 80s, yet they've remained close, despite being political opposites.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I always take your dad in small doses. Maybe part of the reason I don't reach out as much is because I am afraid that we get to a point where it would be like drawing a line in the sand and I.

[Zach Mack]

Wouldn'T be able to cross it.

[Shankar Vedantam]

You know, deep down in my heart, I would love to understand it, and I don't.

[Zach Mack]

Another friend I reached out to was a guy named Paul. He's been one of my dad's closest friends over the past decade. They'd go to church together, even attend Christian retreats together. My working theory was that Paul might have been ground zero for a lot of my dad's conspiracies. Stuff like globalist cabals and believing that Biden has multiple body doubles. I'm not sure where he's getting most.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Of his information from, and it's been rather alarming. And I've been in the same room where he's shown me, like, is that Biden or not?

[Zach Mack]

And I'm like, I just don't see it.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I'm not seeing what you're seeing.

[Zach Mack]

What do you think that exchange would go like if you. If you sort of started to push back on some of those ideas that you found outlandish? I think it would cause a rift.

[Shankar Vedantam]

In our relationship, and it has.

[Zach Mack]

As dad tells it, Paul was not ground zero.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I've actually exposed him to more truth and more reality than he's wanted to deal with.

[Zach Mack]

Dad told me that the person he speaks to the most about these theories is his friend and neighbor, John. So I spoke to him, too. When he talks about, hey, I think there's going to be a martial law. I think there's going to be an EMP device that wipes out all communication. Are you. Are you like, he's been watching too many of The X Files.

[Shankar Vedantam]

It surprised me that he had fallen down a rabbit hole. What could do that to him?

[Zach Mack]

And then there's Marty. He's known my parents for 40 years. He's basically family. He actually held me and dropped me the week I was born. And of all my father's friends, he might be the only one who really pushes back.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I've asked him in a non offensive way how it is that he's come to accept these line of thinking.

[Zach Mack]

Do you think I can kind of persuade him out of some of this stuff?

[Shankar Vedantam]

I don't think it's for you to persuade. It's for the stuff not to come to pass. There's a lot of conspiracy theory groups that expected the end of the world to have come and. And they've just pushed the date back.

[Zach Mack]

I'll admit I was worried about this happening, dad pushing the date back. But I was hoping that losing the bet would be enough to sway him.

[Shankar Vedantam]

What he may learn is not to be so gung ho. He should always keep open the possibility that this theory, you know, his belief is wrong.

[Zach Mack]

Dad's friends clearly thought he was going the wrong way. He was mostly on his own with these beliefs. And I had seen this sort of thing play out before in the family. Some parallels with what happened to his father, my grandfather. Do you think your dad was. I don't know. How would you describe him? Would you describe him as stubborn?

[Shankar Vedantam]

Oh, yeah, stubborn. Very opinionated. Hard headed at times. Yeah. Very embittered against the medical society. They literally ran him out of business.

[Zach Mack]

My grandfather was a chiropractor. Like dad, he was also against vaccines. He believed in what he called the body's natural immunities. So much so that he held my father out of school in the 60s due to a new vaccine mandate.

[Shankar Vedantam]

At the time I kept telling my dad and my mom, I just want to go to school.

[Zach Mack]

My grandfather was living in Ohio with his wife and six kids and he had his own business. That is until the Ohio State Medical Board cracked down on him.

[Shankar Vedantam]

And so they literally threw my dad in jail for a couple of days for practicing without a license. I was like 13 or 14 years old.

[Zach Mack]

After my grandfather's business dissolved, dad says he was never able to fully recover.

[Shankar Vedantam]

He became so depressed that he literally couldn't get out of bed for like six months. And he was never the same man that literally broke him.

[Zach Mack]

My grandfather was a tall and thin man. And one of the things I remember most about him is this one time when he came to visit us, his body had just completely changed. He had gained over 100 pounds in a short amount of time. He was going through some mental health issues that the family never fully understood, and it was affecting his weight and his ability to sleep. It's hard to tell because he would never see a doctor. But I remember he'd just start falling asleep a lot. He would be in the middle of a conversation sometimes, or even at dinner, and he'd just start snoring. Minutes later, he'd abruptly wake up and carry on as if nothing happened. This also began to happen while he was driving. My grandpa got into a number of car accidents. He totaled several cars and nearly killed my grandma. He refused to stop driving and even went to a neighboring state to get a driver's license. After his was taken away, he refused to admit anything was wrong. The family tried talking to him. So did my father, several times. And when that didn't work, dad tried something else.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I wrote him a long letter. I wrote him like a two or three page letter and mailed it to him. And I said, you know, dad, I love you. I want the best for you. You know, I'm not trying to say anything horrible or damaging or critical about you, but your whole family is concerned about you. Can't you see this? Can you recognize that we all would like to see you live to a ripe old age? Because I said, if you continue on this path, I don't know when you're going to die, But I know you're going to die.

[Zach Mack]

Not long after this, When I was 9 or 10 years old, my parents called my sister and me into the kitchen to tell us something. But before they said anything, I already knew my grandfather was dead. They told us he had fallen asleep while driving and that his vehicle veered off the road. When I think about my grandfather, I think about how what caused his death may have been stubbornness, a refusal to listen to those around him. I don't think my father's in imminent physical danger, But I am worried about him. Through my grandfather's story, I see a direct correlation with his stubbornness, his deep distrust in institutions, and the attitude that no matter what, he knows best. How can I break the cycle? It's a question that made me turn to professionals.

[Shankar Vedantam]

You could probably debunk one of your dad's ideas, one of his conspiracy theories, but you're just playing whack a mole.

[Zach Mack]

This is Joseph Uszynski, a professor at the University of Miami. He's one of the foremost political scientists studying conspiracy theories.

[Shankar Vedantam]

He's going to have 500 others. Right. It's not until you get under the hood and start dealing with the predisposition. You know that basic idea that this is how the world works?

[Zach Mack]

Joseph runs experiments to try to find ways to pull people out of the rabbit hole. He's tried challenging them with facts, but he says that doesn't really work because.

[Shankar Vedantam]

That belief is just a manifestation of something bigger and stronger underneath. And perhaps it's a reflection of their personal identity.

[Zach Mack]

I used to think of my dad's beliefs as separate. Like there's how he feels about God or Kira's sexuality. Global cabals. But the more I learned, the more I realized it's all interconnected. Interconnected? Part of a worldview that's been many years in the making.

[Shankar Vedantam]

This is the thing that's tough to deal with. We'd like to think that if we could just convince people of the right facts, if everyone just believed the right thing, they'd all act the right way. But here's. Here's the thing, is that you correct people's wrong beliefs in something. You correct the misinformation. Yeah, but their views don't matter. They know that a lot of the things aren't true, and they like them because they like them. And simply changing their mind about a handful of facts isn't going to change that.

[Zach Mack]

This is a tough one for me. I've always thought that if I could just string together the exact right pieces of information, that would be enough to change his mind. But that's just not how it works. And I realize now that my father is addressing a need, a need that's being fulfilled by conspiracies and prophets like Julie Greenery. You are my warriors, children of Almighty God, and I am telling you today to fight back. Take back the dominion and the power and the authority upon this earth.

[Shankar Vedantam]

It invites them into a cosmic battle. It gives their life this sense of transcendence.

[Zach Mack]

This is Dr. Bradley Onishi. He's a professor and former evangelical minister who studies the threat of religious extremism. He says rhetoric like this cast believers as heroes.

[Shankar Vedantam]

It draws someone like your dad into the belief that they're part of something big. Like, hey, my kids, my wife, my pastor. They don't get it, but they will.

[Zach Mack]

They're gonna see that there's a reality.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Here that is just hiding right below the surface. And I've been right all along. And all of the ways that they've sort of given me a side eye or laughed me off in the past when I was kind of hinting at the idea that I thought vaccines were a conspiracy or from the new world.

[Zach Mack]

Order they're going to finally see.

[Shankar Vedantam]

And I'm just tired of people telling me that I don't get it with.

[Zach Mack]

Folks like your dad.

[Shankar Vedantam]

What I've seen is they have felt.

[Zach Mack]

Like fish out of water for a long time in the Bay Area and amongst our family and friends, dad will always be an outsider. And as I watch my family push him further and further away because of his beliefs, I can see how from his perspective, we are the intolerant ones, the ones who don't understand. I can't imagine what that must feel like. And I know it wears on him. You feel like you're the odd man out?

[Shankar Vedantam]

No. By far.

[Zach Mack]

What is that like?

[Shankar Vedantam]

It's painful at times. It's very sad for me. Yeah, it's a drag.

[Zach Mack]

So what happens when your family, your friends, the people you surround yourself with, don't respect your beliefs? You look elsewhere and I see dad seeking out community and followers. A few years ago, he started a small Bible study group which I sat in on recently. And while he's mostly facilitating discussion about scripture, I was shocked by the sheer amount of misinformation being flung around so casually. I'm talking about everything from weather controlling devices to global cabals to a lot of anti vaxx rhetoric. Amongst this small group, I got to see my father surrounded by people that weren't pushing him away. A place where he gets to be the thought leader. Along with this, he's been writing a book that he plans to self publish. My dad's never written a book or identified as a writer, but this past year he seemed to be looking for an audience. So I think between some of your beliefs, between the Bible group and now with the book, I'm sort of wondering if you, like, feel a deeper urge to be heard.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I do, absolutely. Absolutely.

[Zach Mack]

Can you, can you tell me about that?

[Shankar Vedantam]

Sure. I have a deeper urge to be heard.

[Zach Mack]

Oh man. It feels like there's maybe a little bit of a shift where you're, you're, you're maybe seeking more attention.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I'm not seeking more attention. I'm seeking to speak more truth and touch more people's lives in a positive, healing way.

[Zach Mack]

Dad has big plans for this book. My understanding is that it's about forgiveness and the state of Christianity. I'm still fuzzy on the details, but whenever he discusses it, it feels grandiose. Book tours, maybe a bestseller, speaking engagements, it all felt like it was tying back to a higher purpose, something existential. It's something that I brought up while speaking with other experts.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Even if your father doesn't put the pieces together, there is some awakening of his own mortality that might be contributing to all of this as well.

[Zach Mack]

This is Charlie Safford. He designs clinical therapy techniques for people who believe in far right conspiracies. He believes conspiracy theories are fundamentally emotional coping mechanisms.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I don't know how old your father is. I'm guessing he's probably in his 50s to 60s.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah, he just turned 69.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So he's. Whether he knows it or not, is addressing issues related to mortality. One of the ways that you come to terms with your mortality is to look back and say, did my life have meaning? How old was his father when his father died?

[Zach Mack]

I had never considered this angle before. I wasn't sure how old my grandfather was when he passed, so I asked dad, and when he told me, my jaw dropped.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Oh.

[Zach Mack]

Oh, wow.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Yep.

[Zach Mack]

Grandpa was 68 years old, the exact same age as my father when we made our bet.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I've thought about that a million times. I'm not afraid of dying. I'm just saying. It's just. It's kind of ironic I finally hit that age, but I. I'm not worried about it.

[Zach Mack]

Do you feel like you. You need to get a lot done before. Before that happens?

[Shankar Vedantam]

Not at all, no. No. I just want to get this book finished and published as soon as possible, because I think it. It's a great book, and I think it's going to touch a lot of lives. I feel like it's. It's a culmination of my life's work.

[Zach Mack]

I'm hesitant to overly psychoanalyze him, but I think his actions are addressing a way to seek meaning and community and status. All the things he lacks within our family. I see a determination in him that I haven't seen before, an ambition. And while he looks to move more into the role of thought leader, I find that there's even less space for the possibility that he's wrong. Your beliefs, I feel like, have gotten more extreme.

[Shankar Vedantam]

And I know mom said the same thing. It's not that they've gotten more extreme, because extremism is a negative and pejorative word. I've become more in tune with who I really am.

[Zach Mack]

As we were talking, I reminded dad of that argument we had in the restaurant years ago when he insisted I hardly knew him. Do you feel like I know you now, better?

[Shankar Vedantam]

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You know me. I. You know, it's hard to put a percentage on it. But yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. These. These conversations and just talking about my dad and all the rest. Yeah, absolutely.

[Zach Mack]

I spent years feeling distant and frustrated with my dad, but it felt like we were starting to have a breakthrough. That is, until November happen. By the fall, as we rounded into the final stretch of the year, there had still been no movement on any of Dad's predictions, but he didn't seem worried. You still feel good about the bet?

[Shankar Vedantam]

I do. I do.

[Zach Mack]

You're running out of time.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Nah, I got plenty of time.

[Zach Mack]

I was beginning to realize that my dad might be operating on an entirely different timeline than me. Maybe the end of the year wasn't the end for him. However, I knew I was sticking to January 1st, and so was my mom. I don't know what's going to happen at the end of the year. I'm gearing up for a very, very big life change. What if he just says, you know, I still think all these things are going to happen. I just got the timeline wrong. This is going to happen next year. I can't wait. I can't.

[Yowei Shaw]

I can't keep living with crazy.

[Zach Mack]

You know, that meme of the dog sitting in a room, engulfed in flames, pretending nothing's wrong, and all they have to say is, this is fine. Usually that's my mom's approach with dad. Usually.

[Yowei Shaw]

I think there's part of me that.

[Zach Mack]

Is trying to ignore where he has gone. This project is making it a little.

[Yowei Shaw]

Harder to do that.

[Zach Mack]

For my dad, it was becoming a lose, lose situation. He was either going to have to forfeit his beliefs or forfeit the family.

[Yowei Shaw]

He's very aware that that's a distinct possibility. More aware than I realized by just.

[Zach Mack]

What happened today when he gave me.

[Yowei Shaw]

A belated anniversary gift. And he gave it to me today.

[Zach Mack]

Because he said, honestly, I wasn't sure what frame of mind you would be in and if you would be willing to even accept it. And he said that.

[Yowei Shaw]

Crying, he wrote in this card, you.

[Zach Mack]

Know, I love you, I love Zach.

[Yowei Shaw]

I love Kira, I love you. You're the three most important people in.

[Zach Mack]

My life.

[Shankar Vedantam]

You know?

[Zach Mack]

And he said something, and I said, but you don't. With Kira.

[Yowei Shaw]

You don't.

[Zach Mack]

I said, yes, you love her. You say you accept her, but you don't accept her. I don't see a way to sway him around that. And so what it means is that.

[Yowei Shaw]

The family is irretrievably broken.

[Zach Mack]

Shortly after this conversation took place, the election happened. My father, who no longer trusts elections, didn't even bother to watch my mom was actually the one who told him about Trump's victory. I was calling the next day to discuss the results, and apparently, before I called, dad had echoed some of the false claims about January 6th. Something about how the rioters were paid actors, and that pissed mom off.

[Yowei Shaw]

You know, things were tipping, and that just. That just knocked it all over.

[Zach Mack]

The sad part is I had known for years that he believed this. Mom tried her best to look away for so long, but. But now she was looking. I have tolerated for a long time, and I. I don't choose to tolerate it anymore. That day, mom began sleeping in a separate bedroom, a step I've never seen her take before. How was your conversations with mom today?

[Shankar Vedantam]

Brief and painful.

[Zach Mack]

I mean, she said that she doesn't mind being politically different, but the conspiracy stuff, she's. She's really struggling with.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Yeah.

[Zach Mack]

Do you. Do you feel, like, any pull to, like, meet her halfway on that stuff?

[Shankar Vedantam]

I don't. I. I mean, how can you meet. I have my opinion. I have my. How can I halfway believe what I believe?

[Zach Mack]

It's a fair question. Deep beliefs don't feel like choices, but when you reach an impasse like this, choices have to be made. It looks like my mom is making them. And she's not the only one. After a year of nearly no contact with my father, my sister informed the family that she wouldn't be coming home for the holidays, which we always come together for. But after two Christmases in a row where communication had broken down over her sexuality, she decided she wasn't interested in a third. Why aren't you coming home for Christmas?

[Yowei Shaw]

Because I don't want to be there. I feel like I'm gonna cry. I think last year was so terrible. Incredibly terrible for me, and the thought of being back in that space feels awful. Why would I choose that?

[Zach Mack]

What would need to happen for things to change for you?

[Yowei Shaw]

I think for things to change, like, it's not like things are better than where they were almost a year ago. It's just, like, enough time has passed that I don't feel like every day. But it's not like much has changed. You know, I'm learning to deal with it.

[Zach Mack]

Do you feel like you have a. A plan for how you're going to interact with him moving forward?

[Yowei Shaw]

No, because I feel like there are parts of me that want to continue to have a lot of space. Space and not really have a relationship, but I'm also not in a place where I'm not ready to do that either. And so that's Hard. Like, I don't want to not have a relationship with him. But do you want to feel a little bit shitty every day for the rest of your life, or do you want to feel like one big, terrible, gaping wound and then allow that to heal and then keep living? But a lot of people choose the, like, tiny paper cuts every day. Yeah.

[Zach Mack]

The slow death.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah. And I'm just not interested in the tiny paper cuts every day.

[Zach Mack]

For years, Kira had the better relationship with dad. Certainly the less contentious one. And now, while Kira and Dad are further apart than ever, he and I have forged this newfound closeness.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah. I mean, I've thought about it a lot. Like, you know, it's not lost on me that you're closer. And it. It's. It's odd, but I. I'm not, like, upset about it. I mean, I know I sound upset, but I think it's just very layered for me.

[Zach Mack]

Yeah.

[Shankar Vedantam]

And.

[Yowei Shaw]

But I think part of me in, like, a very bizarre way, is, like, glad that you both have had that. You know, it's not something at all that I can. Can give him. And I don't know if I ever will be able to anymore.

[Zach Mack]

Making this series has been really difficult for me. It's been hard to watch my family go up in flames and to see my mom and sister in pain and to document all that in real time. For months, I wrestled over whether or not I was doing the right thing. And to be honest, I'm still not sure that I am. But I have to acknowledge that it's because of this project that I've been able to speak with my father in ways that I never have before. Still, I wasn't sure that would lead to change. It's my wishful thinking that he will realize if he steps back and looks at the whole picture, that he's not grounded in any reality and that he'll have an awakening and I will have.

[Yowei Shaw]

A marriage and a family.

[Zach Mack]

All these conversations with mom and Kira were happening as the deadline for the bet was bearing down on us. So I asked them to think if they had any asks of dad that I could relay to him. Anything at all. Like seeing a therapist, reading a specific book, attending a church with more inclusive views on sexuality. After getting so much closer to him, I just thought that he might be open to it. They said they'd think on it and they would get back to me before New Year's. And this idea of asks got me thinking. My dad is actually pretty good at giving advice. He has this rare ability to step outside of himself. So I asked him, what if a complete stranger came to him with these exact problems? What kind of advice would he give? What would he say to himself if he wasn't, you know, himself?

[Shankar Vedantam]

Help me understand why you believe what you believe. And let's. Let's look at the. The fallacies or the shortcomings in believing that. If you continue to believe that, how is that going to impact your world? How is that going to affect your relationships? What if you entertain this thought? What if you could believe this way? Can you see that that would make a difference in your life or in your relationship, you know, with your spouse, your son, your daughter? What if you could just adjust that thinking enough so that it didn't cause you the pain and the anguish that your current belief causes you? If you can't let go of those beliefs, how can you make room for your wife's, your sons, your daughter's belief without it becoming a stumbling block and you having a relationship with them?

[Zach Mack]

It trips me out when you say things like that because you're saying it with such clarity. But I wish you were saying it to yourself like I wish you were hearing that.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I am hearing that.

[Zach Mack]

As I prepared to have our final conversation, it felt like maybe he had it in him. If there was ever a time I could possibly get through to him, it would be now. All right, I love you. Thank you for doing this. Thank you so much for your time.

[Shankar Vedantam]

And have a good night. We'll talk to you soon. And you know what, Zach? Huh? This alone has been well worth it. All the conversations we've had. I mean, to be perfectly honest, if I had to pay you 50 grand for the time we've spent together, every penny's been worth it.

[Zach Mack]

I appreciate it, dad. It's. It's actually been really nice talking to you, too.

[Shankar Vedantam]

All right. All right, take care.

[Zach Mack]

You too. Good night.

[Yowei Shaw]

That was Zach Mack for NPR's embedded podcast. You can listen to the entire three part alternate reality series wherever you get your podcasts.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Radiotopia.

[Zach Mack]

From prx.