Presenting: "Stings for Our Enemies. Honey for Our Friends." (from Our Ancestors Were Messy)

Summary

Proxy with Yowei Shaw Episode: Presenting: "Stings for Our Enemies. Honey for Our Friends." (from Our Ancestors Were Messy) Release Date: February 26, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Proxy with Yowei Shaw, the hosts delve into a dramatized exploration of historical black elite dynamics in Washington, D.C., through the fictional narrative from the podcast "Our Ancestors Were Messy" by Nicole Hill. This episode intertwines storytelling with insightful commentary, shedding light on class divisions, societal expectations, and the intricate interplay between race and economic status within the black community during the late 19th century.

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Main Story: "Stings for Our Enemies. Honey for Our Friends."

[00:00 - 08:16]
The episode opens with a brief mention of Shankar Vedantam introducing a mystery about human emotions. However, the focus quickly shifts to Tim Howard, who discusses the behind-the-scenes efforts of the Proxy team working on a shoestring budget. He introduces one of the editors before segueing into the main story from "Our Ancestors Were Messy".

[05:27 - 08:16]
Nicole Hill presents the genesis of "Our Ancestors Were Messy", inspired by pre-Civil Rights black newspapers that featured gossip columns like "The Court of Afro Relations." These columns offered a glimpse into the everyday dramas and societal issues of the black community in the 1930s, blending humor and connection despite the overarching challenges of the era.

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Dramatized Historical Narrative

[08:45 - 57:37]
The core of the episode is a richly woven fictional tale set in the Gilded Age of the 1880s in Washington, D.C., focusing on the lives of the black elite, known as the First Families, and their interactions with the broader black community.

Key Characters:

• Richard Francis: A former enslaved man who becomes a successful bartender and later manages the U.S. Senate's private restaurant.
• Lulu Marla Francis: Richard's daughter, depicted as a poised and educated woman struggling with societal expectations.
• Mr. John F. Cragwell: An aspiring young barber from a modest background who falls in love with Lulu.
• William Chase: Richard's eldest son, a combative lawyer and editor of the Washington Bee, a black-owned newspaper.

Plot Highlights:

1. Rise of Richard Francis: From enslaved beginnings, Richard establishes himself as a respected bartender in a prestigious tavern frequented by politicians, eventually securing a prestigious job through a senator's recommendation.

2. Lulu's Forbidden Romance: Lulu Francis engages in a cross-class romance with Mr. Cragwell, a talented but economically disadvantaged barber. Their relationship defies the rigid class structures of the First Families, leading to societal scandal.

3. The Washington Bee's Influence: William Chase, despite personal setbacks, transforms the Washington Bee into a formidable publication advocating for civil rights and social justice while also delving into the scandals of the First Families through the "Clara and Louise" gossip columns.

4. Conflict and Consequences: The elopement of Lulu with Mr. Cragwell ignites widespread gossip and backlash from the elite. The narrative explores themes of love, class disparity, racial identity, and the pressures exerted by both the black elite and the broader society.

5. Enduring Legacy: The story concludes with reflections on the lasting impact of these historical dynamics, including the evolution of black entrepreneurship and the complex legacy of the First Families in modern black communities.

Notable Quotes:

• Nicole Hill [09:37]: "I really just wanted to make like, the movie that I had always wanted to see when I was a kid where I was like, actually, you don't have to worry about watching this. It's not going to devastate you."
• Shankar Vedantam [12:07]: "Yes, it's hard to be in something, but not of it."
• Nicole Hill [26:29]: "Ooh, I wonder if that had any long term consequences."

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Discussion: Class and Race Dynamics in the Black Community

[57:37 - 65:23]
Following the narrative, Yowei Shaw and Nicole Hill engage in a profound discussion about the historical strategy of "lift as you climb", pioneered by intellectuals like W.E.B. Du Bois. They examine the benefits and drawbacks of this approach, considering how it fostered upward mobility and respectability within the black elite but also sowed seeds of class division and defensiveness.

Key Points:

• "Lift as You Climb" Strategy: Encourages individuals to advance socially and economically while uplifting the community, aiming to dismantle systemic barriers through personal success.
• Class Divisions: While fostering individual success, this strategy inadvertently created a divide between the black elite (First Families) and the broader black community, leading to tensions and a sense of disconnect.
• Modern Implications: The hosts ponder the relevance and adaptability of historical strategies in today's socio-political climate, debating whether such approaches are still effective or need reimagining.

Notable Quotes:

• Nicole Hill [64:12]: "Probably disengage completely. Just stop caring. Like, just being like, nothing is going to work."
• Shankar Vedantam [62:46]: "How are you feeling about the tactic of lift as we climb as a strategy for 1886? What did we gain? What did we lose?"

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Insights and Reflections

The episode offers a nuanced exploration of how historical strategies for racial upliftment intersected with class dynamics, sometimes exacerbating internal community conflicts. By dramatizing these tensions through the story of Lulu Francis and Mr. Cragwell, Proxy encourages listeners to reflect on the complexities of black history beyond the narratives of triumph and resilience. It underscores the importance of recognizing the multifaceted experiences of ancestors, embracing both their achievements and their struggles.

Key Takeaways:

• Humanizing History: Acknowledging the "messiness" of ancestors' lives provides a more authentic and relatable understanding of black history.
• Community Unity vs. Individual Success: Balancing personal advancement with collective progress remains a pertinent issue in contemporary discussions about race and class.
• Legacy of the First Families: The enduring influence of black elites in areas like Charles County and PG County, Maryland, highlights both the successes and the lingering divisions within the community.

Notable Quotes:

• Nicole Hill [65:23]: "I think we would all give ourselves a lot more grace if we looked at our ancestors as people and knew that they could get messy, too."
• Shankar Vedantam [63:29]: "What did we gain? What did we lose?"

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Conclusion

This episode of Proxy with Yowei Shaw masterfully blends storytelling with critical analysis, offering listeners an engaging journey through a fictionalized yet insightful portrayal of black elite dynamics in the 19th century. By highlighting the "messy" aspects of history, the podcast fosters a deeper understanding of the intricate interplay between race, class, and societal expectations, urging a more compassionate and comprehensive view of the past.

Listeners are encouraged to support Proxy and its mission of "emotional investigative journalism™️" by joining their Patreon or subscribing to their newsletter.

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Notable Exclusions:

• Advertisements, promotional segments, and non-content sections have been omitted to maintain focus on the core narrative and discussions.

Transcript

[Shankar Vedantam]

Shankar.

I'm Shankar Vedantam, here to tell you about a great mystery. That mystery is you. As the host of a podcast called Hidden Brain, I explore big questions about what it means to be human. Questions like where do our emotions come from? Why do so many of us feel overwhelmed by modern life? How can we better understand the people around us? Discovery your hidden brain. Find us wherever you get your podcasts.

[Nicole Hill]

Professional rejection happens to all of us. But it can feel really overwhelming and isolating to keep getting rejection after rejection after rejection. That's why I created this show. Thank youk for your interest. Thank youk for your Interest is a show where people just like you and me, come on and share their professional rejection stories, turning their most memorable thanks, but no thanks moments into places for connection and humor. Because rejection sucks. But you don't. Along with my co host, each week you'll hear stories that are heartbreaking, hilarious, hellish, or a combination of all three.

[Tim Howard]

I'm upset about this. That was when my boss said, well, you've changed since you've had a baby.

[Nicole Hill]

Plus, we'll talk about how many rejections we've received, trends we're seeing in the job market, and whatever else is on our minds that week. Thank you for your interest is available wherever you get your podcasts.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I am moving on.

I'm totally fine.

[Tim Howard]

Hello, Proxy people. Two quick things before the show. One is a story call out. Are you someone whose work or passion has been thrown into question because of recent political events or do you have some other niche emotional conundrum about this political moment? We'd love to hear from you. Get in [e-mail] okay, second thing. Proxy has a five minute listener survey. We want to know more about you and what you think about the show. This will help us pitch sponsors and give you more of what you want. Thank you to everybody who's already filled it out. We still need like 100 or more people for the survey results to be statistically significant. So if you can just go to bit ly ProxySurvey again, that's bit ly ProxySurvey. Thanks. Hey everybody, it's yoe. If you haven't heard, Proxy is officially launching this April. Thank you for your patience and sticking with us. We are so close. So close. I know I keep saying that the team is working hard, blah, blah, blah. So I thought you should hear from someone else from the team. I present to you one of our editors, Tim Howard.

I am mic'd up. Yeah.

Okay. So Tim, let's. Let's Provide some evidence. What did we do last week?

Last week? Let's see, today's Monday. We met on Thursday and Friday. No, wait, yeah, Thursday and Friday. All right, let me think, let me think.

This is taking a long time to provide testimony to our listeners. Tim has worked on lots of great shows. Reply all, Radiolab. The reason he's having trouble remembering what we did last week is because Proxy only gets to work with Tim a couple hours a week. So he's constantly playing catch up. We cherish our couple of hours a week with Tim because he always gives great edits, even about non story things. Tim, I did what you said. I changed the about page for Proxy.

Oh, nice.

Why don't you go look at it right now?

All right, one second.

To give some context, I was really excited to put all the team member bios on the website. And so there are how many people on there?

Okay, wait, I'm opening it up now. So Yoee, Kim, Jon, Nick, Anna, Karen, me and Juliana. What is that, seven?

Oh, there's one more.

Oh, other credits. Yeah, mixing engineer Kyle.

So you told me I should add a note on this page because I.

Thought it was funny because like, this is like a shoestring podcast. Like the way it's being made, I think the quality, like you wouldn't guess that, but it's like being made on a shoestring and you are the one who is making the shoestring.

[Shankar Vedantam]

And.

[Tim Howard]

And when you go to the page, it looks like it's a really well funded, like, major budget, big studio podcast. I don't remember what I said, but I'm going to scroll up and read it right now. Oh, yes, here it is. Don't let this long list of team members mislead you. Everyone except Yoi is extremely part time and we are on a shoestring budget. Oh, awesome.

Anyway, I hope I have proven that there indeed is a proxy team that's working on new episodes for you. In the meantime, we are so excited to share a story from another podcast today while we get ready for launch. So Proxy is all about investigating emotional conundrums. Well, the story you're about to hear comes from someone trying to investigate a very particular emotional question.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Can you enjoy black history? Is that even allowed?

[Tim Howard]

This is my friend, Nicole Hill. She's an audio show runner, writer, and the host and creator of the Secret Adventures of Black People. And for as long as she can remember, Nicole has had a complicated relationship with black history.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Everything that I've learned about black history or the way that I have learned black history in my life has been like, okay, here are our icons. Let's revere them. And then here is the worst thing you could ever imagine that white people did to us and how we overcame.

[Tim Howard]

And then in 2020, Nicole stumbled upon a digital archive of pre civil rights black newspapers from across the country. And she found something she didn't expect. A treasure trove of gossip like this advice column titled the Court of Afro Relations.

[Shankar Vedantam]

One was a sister who was writing in because her sister was in love with a married man at their church and had been confronted by the wife who attacked her with an umbrella. And the sister wanted to know, like, should I put my sister who is in love with this married man and causing all this drama, should I put her out? But she's my sister. Like, what do I do? My husband's getting mad. What's your advice?

[Tim Howard]

Nicole couldn't stop reading, giggling and gasping at these newspapers.

[Shankar Vedantam]

It's how people kept people informed about, you know, okay, this is what we're doing to resist over here. This is what we're the play that we all love, that we think that when it comes to your town, you should go there. These are the accomplishments of the people in our community.

[Tim Howard]

She felt like she was scrolling Instagram. But back in 1930s segregated black society, she couldn't look away and wanted to make a podcast that gave listeners that feeling too.

[Shankar Vedantam]

You know, I really just wanted to make like, the movie that I had always wanted to see when I was a kid where I was like, actually, you don't have to worry about watching this. It's not going to devastate you.

[Tim Howard]

That's how Our Ancestors Were Messy was born a new podcast that explores black history through the lens of gossip and drama.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Talking about messiness and talking about the ancestors not as these perfect people that we could look to for just strength and stoicism and wisdom alone, but people who had made mistakes and who were feeling things out, who were really nuanced, who made trade offs. I'm of the mindset that the ancestors were extraordinarily successful. I heard somebody give this quote of like, if you are reading black history and it has a happy ending, you have not read far enough. And I reject that. This show was like me rejecting that.

[Tim Howard]

After the break, Our Ancestors Were Messy from host and creator Nicole Hill. And now Proxy presents Stings for our Enemies. Honey for our friends from the show, Our Ancestors Were Messy by host and creator Nicole Hill.

[Nicole Hill]

The Secret Adventures of Black People presents Our Ancestors Were Messy.

Craigwell is poor, having Only his wages to depend on. Oh, my gosh.

Today, a forbidden romance threatens the future of one of DC's most elite families.

[Shankar Vedantam]

And Lulu was probably like, I don't care about this side of the track. That side of the track. I'm in love.

[Nicole Hill]

And provides fodder for two of DC's busiest gossip columnists.

Dear Louise, your letter to the household last week was read with a great deal of interest.

This episode stars Jenkilyn Hill, host of the podcast Explain it to Me for vox Black Delilah, and your host, Nicole Hill.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Oh, Dion. I think it's Dion.

[Nicole Hill]

This is Our Ancestors Were Messy, a podcast about our ancestors and all their drama.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Mm. Where did you grow up?

[Nicole Hill]

So I bounced around Kansas and Missouri for a good chunk of my childhood. But I feel like when people ask where you're from, they're asking, where did you graduate from high school? And the answer to that question is Albuquerque, New Mexico.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Albuquerque, New Mexico. Which, I mean, I love it there, but wow.

[Nicole Hill]

Yeah. Like, the number one thing people say is like, oh, they got black people there. And the answer is no. And that's why I am not there.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So where are you now?

[Nicole Hill]

So I'm in D.C. now. I moved out here to go to Howard. Like most Howard grads, that's probably the longest I've gone without saying the words. I went to Howard and I just stayed ever since.

[Shankar Vedantam]

And what would you say is your relationship to the city?

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, my gosh. I really do feel like it raised me. I was talking with someone recently, and I asked, how long do you have to live in a place to no longer be considered a transplant? Because I've lived in D.C. for 15 years now. And my friend was like, you're good.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Yeah. You're in. I've been on and off in D.C. for 20 years. I'm not there now, but I'm only ever away for, like, a couple years at a time. But I count myself and I keep leaving. So you're in. You've been there the whole time? Steady.

[Nicole Hill]

No, I essentially bleed mambo sauce. Now. As far as the.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Now, what kind of a black are you? Ooh.

[Nicole Hill]

Okay. I've been thinking about this, and I feel like Original recipe. Like, I am just a regular, a very regular black person. Like, not a new black, just old fashioned black lady. Well, okay, I'm not an old fashioned black lady. Let me not say that.

[Shankar Vedantam]

But, you know, I was like, what is the old fashioned? What's the original recipe?

[Nicole Hill]

I don't know. I don't have all the bells and whistles. Like, I'm not like, ooh, post racial society. Even the conversations, like, the diaspora wars. I think I'm a little original recipe in that, because I'm like, y' all, we are all black. What are you? And, like, people will argue about the one drop rule. And I'm like, you're black. I also, I think I have a very good black dar. Like, there are people who are black, and I clock it, and I have friends who's like, that's a black person. I'm like, I. I know when a negro is in my presence.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Okay, so this might be. This is awkward. This is the third rail. But we're gonna. This story is about class.

[Nicole Hill]

Yes.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So on a scale of one to five, one being trash and five being, like, free, clear, honest, easy to do. Can you rate the quality of the conversations about class that you've witnessed within the black community?

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, it's hard to do. It's hard because sometimes it's good and then sometimes it's bad. Like I said, I went to Howard, and there's that tweet where someone's like, I hate Howard, bitches. They're always in the bathroom arguing about slavery. And it's like, I. That's. I am at the party. I am the person in the bathroom arguing about slavery.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Mm. Mm.

[Nicole Hill]

Also, the thing is, everyone tends to get blinded by their own experience, and there's a defensiveness, like an inherent defensiveness. I'm going to give it a 2. I'm going to give the conversations a 2, especially if they're happening online. Oh, my gosh. Don't even try.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Oh, my God. I know. Then it's like, zero. It's. Yeah. Why do you think that is? Why you think class is such a. Like, it makes people defensive.

[Nicole Hill]

Okay. I think no matter who you are, class gets sticky. It's that whole thing. It's like, don't talk about politics and money, and it's both those things together. But I think for so long, class and race has been married in this country, and for good reason. Like, understandably so. There have been systemic things that, you know, make a lot of black people part of the same class and make it very hard to have upward mobility. But when that upward mobility does exist, it can get a little sticky because it's this thing of, well, you're still experiencing racism. And it's like, yeah, but also, like, there are privileges that come with having money, and then there's all this, like, class anxiety. It's harder to move up in the world, and then you Feel defensive about it. And it's just. It gets sticky so quickly.

[Shankar Vedantam]

How comfortable are you with discussing class?

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, I'm pretty comfortable with it. But again, I think that's because I've been arguing in bathrooms about the for the past 15 years.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Okay. This story is about class, and it's actually in D.C. ooh.

[Nicole Hill]

Back when it was really chocolate city.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Back when it was becoming chocolate city. We are in the Gilded Age, aka the Victorian era, aka the 1880s. In society news, President Grover Cleveland has become the first and only president to get married in the White House. His bride is 27 years his junior, and she told their reverend Dr. Byron Sutherland that they would be changing her vows from honor, love and obey to honor, love and keep.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, a progressive lady.

[Shankar Vedantam]

A progressive young lady. Reverend Dr. Sutherland is like, fine, we can do whatever you want. Because I've already been in so much trouble. Because he'd married another DC couple recently, and in doing so, he'd ushered in one of the biggest society scandals that the black elite had ever seen. This is the story of a battle between romance and class. This is the story of the scandalous loves of Lulu Francis. Ooh.

[Nicole Hill]

I love. First of all, I love love. I love scandals. I love drama.

[Shankar Vedantam]

This is the story for you then. Okay, so slavery ended 20 years ago. Black people are moving all around the country now that they can. And they're trying to decide, where do we want to be? What city are we about to turn chocolate? A lot of them decide on Washington, D.C. period. So there are a lot of really great black schools there. Obviously. Hu. You know, there's a ton of other black people around that's very attractive. The highest concentration of black people in the nation at that time. And in the city, there's a class of black elites. They are wealthy. They're from the D.C. maryland, Virginia area, which obviously we call the DMV. And they're known as the first families.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So there's a couple different ways that a person can become a member of the first families, the black elite. And I'm going to tell you how one man did it. He is the father of the star of today's episode, and his name is Richard Francis. Richard was born enslaved in Virginia. A Southern gentleman never mixed his own drinks, so they would have enslaved black men do that for them. So this was one of Richard's jobs. He did it really well. He didn't have a choice. So when he was freed, eventually he went to work at a white owned tavern up the street from the White House. He rises from basically like a bar back to the most popular bartender at this tavern. It's called Hancock's Old Curiosity Shop.

[Nicole Hill]

Ooh, I'm drinking an Old Fashioned, and I just imagined the Old Fashioned he would make me.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Oh, they would be so good. And you're black, so he'd really hook them up. Well, you're a black woman, so. And it's the Victorian era, so maybe you wouldn't.

[Nicole Hill]

So he'd probably be like, why are you drinking, you hussy? Go home.

[Shankar Vedantam]

He is a really, really good bartender. And because of its location, it's really popular for politicians from across the country to come in. And they all fall in love with his mint juleps. This is his specialty. One of his patrons is a senator, and he tells Richard that he wants to help him get a job running the prison private restaurant in the U.S. senate. And Richard's like, I would be very into that. So the senator puts in a good word, and Richard gets the job. He's not the first black man to hold that position, but it's still, like, a really big deal. So once he's there, he seems to be making good money. He takes his earnings and invests them in D.C. real estate. Brilliant. And so then he makes more money, and he can afford to now be a member of the first families. So in order to be a member of the first families, you need to have a combination of the following. This isn't an exhaustive list, but to start economic security, you need enough money to not have to worry about money. And you gotta be real classy with it. Meaning you need to own a beautifully furnished home. You need to dress well, you need to vacation in the right spots. Harpers Ferry, West Virginia, actually is super popular with them. Frederick Douglass and his family have a house out there. Richard is financially set, and I don't know how he decorated his home or where he vacationed, but he has money. So check. That's one thing. You have to have a prestigious job running the private restaurant in the U.S. senate counts. So check. You need to go to college. I don't know Richard's educational background, but he's obviously very intelligent. But he did not go to college, I'm assuming, so no check for that. And you have to be from the dmv, which he is from. So check.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, they're strict. They are very serious about those rules of very serious. I would not be grandfathered in my 15 years. They'd be like, girl, you are not.

[Shankar Vedantam]

They would be like, nope, you're out. Richard has made the three out of four. So that means him, his wife, their son and two daughters are officially members of the first family. And so that brings us to the star of today's story. This is one of Richard's daughters, Ms. Louise Marla Francis, whom everybody calls Lulu. Lulu is likely a fashionista, a little spunky and opinionated, likely educated. She would have been doing things like attending organizing meetings for women's suffrage at the city's first black Presbyterian Church, the 15th Street Presbyterian Church. She's a woman described by the Washington Post at the time as the belle of colored DC So basically, she is our ideal rom com heroine. I wish I had a picture of her, but I do not. But let's cast her in our mind. Who do you think could play this person?

[Nicole Hill]

Okay, it sounds like she's that girl, and this person is not an actress, but I'm just imagining, like, Gilded Age Lori Harvey.

[Shankar Vedantam]

That's so funny. I was thinking Lori Harvey.

[Nicole Hill]

Yeah, like Gilded Age Lori Harvey. She's that girl, Know the girl, et cetera. Just remember that you're the prize.

[Tim Howard]

Always, always, always.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So once Lulu hits marrying age, inquiring minds would want to know, who's it gonna be? Who's she gonna pick? Much like Lori Harvey at this time, she could have ended up with a young WB Du Bois. They're in the same class. Oh. Or maybe his mortal enemy, Booker T. Washington. Let's say you're Lulu. What would your ideal husband at this time be? And for context, let me just tell you that her sister married a man with a good government job working at the pension office. So that means they're economically secure, socially elite. Her brother goes to Howard University and then the University of Michigan, where he graduates magna cum laude. And then he comes home to D.C. marries an elite black woman at the 15th Street Presbyterian Church, becomes a doctor. All right, so you're Lulu.

[Nicole Hill]

Do I have to pick from the men you mentioned, or can I make my ideal man up?

[Shankar Vedantam]

Make your ideal 1886 man up. Ooh.

[Nicole Hill]

You know what? I'm going to go with a doctor. I'm going to go with a doctor. Somebody that, like, all the black people go to. They're like, he is that doctor. He is that guy. And I'll be like, yeah, that's my man.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Okay, so Lulu starts dating one of her dad Richard's employees.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh.

[Shankar Vedantam]

He's an aspiring young barber named John F. Craig. Well, can I have you read how the papers described Mr. Cragwell at that time? It's on page one.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, my gosh. This is so rude. Cragwell is poor, having only his wages to depend on. Oh, my gosh.

[Shankar Vedantam]

That's your man.

[Nicole Hill]

Hmm. He's probably a nice guy. He might be rocking her world in one of several ways. Like, but also, like, what else are we gonna. I guess family money other than wages.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I mean, yeah, ideally family money or real estate investments.

[Nicole Hill]

Ugh. So rude. So rude. She likes that boy.

[Shankar Vedantam]

She likes him. Okay, so. Okay, so this is the thing. Craigwell is a barber or a tonsillary artist, which is what they're called at this time. Black men were, like, finding that they actually really enjoy the experience of, like, going to a shop together, talking, reckless, hanging out, also getting their hair done. So men are like, oh, okay, you guys like this? They start opening barbershops somewhat regularly. They begin popping up all over black communities, and people are starting to be like, huh. This seems like it's a community hub. This seems like a potentially lucrative business. So being a black barber does have the potential to become, like, an important role in the black community and a profitable job. So Lulu's like, maybe. She's like, you know, there's potential here, dad. Like, just let him cook. Like, we don't know what he can do. So they keep dating, and they do fall in love.

[Nicole Hill]

Aw.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So, like, let's picture a romance montage. You're Lulu. You're with your Craig. Well, can you just, like, describe the world that you two would build together? What kind of dates would you want to go on with him in the 1880s?

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, my gosh. I'm gonna tell you one thing. We are getting ice cream. We are going to an ice cream parlor. Okay. We are making icons at church, and he is walking me out while I fan myself. He's courting me. He's sitting in my mother's parlor, and we are drinking tea under the watchful eye of my father and siblings. I don't know, like, is there a promenade that we go to? Is there? I don't know what things are open. There's probably no zoo yet. Probably no museums. But, like, whatever the version of that is, maybe he's outside my window at night and throwing rocks and we're writing each other letters. Maybe we even sneak a little kissy kiss, and no one sees it being fast.

[Shankar Vedantam]

This cross class kind of upstairs, downstairs romance is not something that the first families would have been cool with. They're very snobby. So, like, just to put it in perspective, there's, like, 230,000 people in D.C. at this time. 75,000 or 32% of them are black. And then 400 of the 75,000 are members of the first families.

[Nicole Hill]

Okay? It's giving literal talented tenth.

[Shankar Vedantam]

You took the words out of my mouth. That's what we're talking about here, is the talented tenth. So the talented fifth. Really? So the first families, they're exclusive. If you're wealthy and black, but you're coming to D.C. from, like, Philly or New York or Detroit, they call you a foreigner or a stranger. And if you're poor or uneducated and black, they don't call you anything at all because they're living by this mandate of lift as we climb. The saying is everywhere. It's a huge part of the strategy that the race has come up with during a time when they literally had to move in next door to the people who used to enslave them. So it's, like, not a good time. So they think, like, okay, how are we going to change this? How are we going to make things better for ourselves? And W.E.B. du Bois and a lot of people come up with this idea of the talented 10th, and they're like, all right, we need y' all to go in there, be as respectable and as elegant and educated as possible to put these white people at ease and show them that, like, see, I'm a human. Just like, you see my hands? You can't really reason. You have to be like, it's okay, it's okay. Or you have to just fight. But they're outnumbered.

[Nicole Hill]

It gives something that I would have thought to do when I was, like, in my 20s and felt like I had something to prove.

[Shankar Vedantam]

And this is like, they're the first generation of people. A lot of them were slaves, and now they're free. White people are not okay with this. It's not like everybody's like, oh, yeah, you earned it. Good for you. Like, they're under duress at all times. So, yes, you're having to, like, overcompensate, over, prove, overdo all these things. And the idea is, if we send y' all in there to do that, then white people will be put at ease, and then go around to the back of the club, open the door, and then you're gonna let all the rest of us in. Here's what the strategy didn't account for. It's hard to be in something, but not of it. Mm.

[Nicole Hill]

What did Audre Lorde say? Master's house, master's tools, et cetera.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Yes. So the talented 10th start to adopt the traditions and the customs of the elites they're meant to be imitating. And then they come back to the black community. And are these enforcers of the politics of respectability and brutal critics of anybody that doesn't comply?

[Nicole Hill]

Ooh, I wonder if that had any long term consequences.

[Shankar Vedantam]

You know what I keep thinking? I'm like, you create a strategy that'll really work for you. But then, oh, we just kept the same exact strategy for, like, hundreds of years. We didn't update it, you know, as, like, modern people. I think we're trying to update it now, but it's so hard for me to judge them ever, because I'm like, it did work. I am here. Yeah.

[Nicole Hill]

It's also this thing of, like, if you're barely one generation out of being enslaved, you know, I'm gonna.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I'm gonna have sympathy back to Lulu. Lulu has a friend who she does seem to turn to for advice. The papers don't name her, but I'm imagining her to be, like, a level headed best friend archetype like Dion and clueless. So I just want to call her Dion.

[Nicole Hill]

Yeah. Every rom com needs a best friend. Every rom com needs a best friend.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Of course. All right, so I'm imagining this next part, but indulge me. Dion probably would have listened to Lulu go on and on and on about her great love and these walks along the promenade, the ice cream. She's like, girl, come on now. Do you really think that this is gonna work out? He is a barber, and he is broke, and we are royalty. Like, what are you doing? And Lulu was probably like, Dion. I don't care about that. I don't care about upstairs, downstairs, this side of the track, that side of the track. I'm in love. And not only do she and Craig, well, continue dating, they get engaged.

[Nicole Hill]

Ooh.

[Shankar Vedantam]

But someone finds Craigwell and they have a conversation with him. We don't know what they say. We don't know who it is. All we know is that afterwards, he goes to Lulu and he says, I can't be with you anymore. Our engagement is over. And then he moves to Pennsylvania.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, my gosh. She has to stab him. He broke her heart.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Lulu is so sad. I'm picturing her, like, running upstairs and then flinging herself on the bed and crying and crying and crying. And Dion's trying to console her, but she's also maybe breathing a little sigh of relief along with Richard, Lulu's dad, and the rest of the first families, because Lulu was probably going to end up like Lucinda Seaton anyway. Allow me to tell you the cautionary tale of Lucinda Seton. Oh, 30 years before Lulu's forbidden love, the DMV had another it girl, and her name was Lucinda Seton. When a famous German American painter came to D.C. looking to paint the portrait of the quintessential African American lady to be displayed across Europe, do you know who he chose? Lucinda Seaton.

[Nicole Hill]

He's gonna paint her like one of his German girls.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So Lucinda's. All this happening with her, her, like, time to shine. It's 1850, so the Civil War is 10 years off. Slavery is in full effect. It's the culture, but also we have a community of free black people. And that's what her family is. But that year, the census was taken, and for the first time, it recognized and counted as separate Africans and mixed race people. So half white, half black. So it was reported that there were a little over 3 million enslaved Black people in America at that time, and 250,000 of them were mixed race. So these 250,000 people, for the most part, they're not born of, you know, like, loving, consensual relationships. That's not what we're talking about.

[Nicole Hill]

Not at all here.

[Shankar Vedantam]

You know what I mean? So we're talking about horrible, like, mass rape from white enslavers of black women. And then black women are giving birth to these hundreds of thousands of people. These are just the people that they counted. So the white men who fathered these children, at that time, there was, like, a culture among some of them of claiming these children and either giving them better jobs on the plantation, like, in the house. We know what this does to our community, but they're bringing their children inside.

[Nicole Hill]

All right. Time for colorism to start.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Mm. Mm. But these, they're like, you know, you are my son. You are my daughter. You work inside. It's disgusting and weird, but this is what they're doing. Or they're freeing them after a certain age or sending them off to Europe to be educated, or even sometimes leaving them inheritances. Some of the elite families got their start this way, or they claimed to have gotten their start this way because it was seen as a respectable thing. It was like you were special to your dad. Obviously, we know this is how we came by being light skinned, which is among the most important qualities a member of the black elite could ever possess. Horrible beginnings. What we did with that trauma is multiply it. But this is how. This is part of their story, too. So Lucinda Seaton's family seemed, from what I can surmise, to have partially gotten Their start this way. I mean, they are very light. She's like part Indian, part white, part black. Okay.

[Nicole Hill]

She's a red bone, as we say. She would be in the Fenty three hundreds.

[Shankar Vedantam]

She would be in the Fenty three hundreds. Thank you for translating that for modern audiences. So, you know, they're free through all this, you know, weirdness and grossness. But they also. Somebody opened up a grocery store, and it would eventually become the largest grocery store chain in the dmv. And so that's how they came by a bunch of money. So Lucinda's doing great. She's living the dream until she marries a blacksmith. Mm. So the blacksmith is doing okay for himself. He's doing, you know, the best that he can. But he's also middle class, so now she is too. She clearly married for love because she has to move into a middle class neighborhood in a quaint little home on Ice street in northwest D.C. which is like, now.

[Nicole Hill]

Now it's like, girl, that's money.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Yes, exactly. So she moves to I Street, where the men go to work and the women raise kids. And nobody comes by to paint their pictures.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, no.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Lucinda has six kids, five girls and a boy named William. And she seems to have been searching for a way to get back in to the first families, like, get back into the life she'd become accustomed. But they needed to make some money. If Lucinda Seaton's six kids get educated, they can get good jobs, make real money, and put their family back on the map. So all the kids are sent to school. William goes to the prestigious private elementary school in the basement of the 15th Street Presbyterian Church. So now all Lucinda has to do is just wait. Unfortunately, in 1863, tragedy strikes. Her husband is murdered during a robbery. Oh, no. So now Lucinda is a widow with six kids to feed. I don't know if her family helped her out a bit. Maybe they did. But she does become a dressmaker, and she starts an ice cream shop to make ends meet.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, my gosh. Did Lulu go there with Craig?

[Shankar Vedantam]

Well, they are going to cross paths. We'll see. But she has to pull her kids out of their schools to help earn money for their services. Some of the members of the first families probably still stop by her little house on I Street and wish her well. But it's clear to everyone that Lucinda is now even further away from being one of them than she was before. She'd married into a precarious financial situation. And now she was a poor with no hope of ever advancing. The end. So now we're back. We're back with Lulu and Dion in the 1880s. We left Lulu, she's crying in her bedroom, probably making it up, but, you know, she's sobbing. Dion is there. She's rubbing her head. She's saying, don't worry about Craig. Well, all men are dogs. It's gonna be okay. Then I picture Lulu's father, Richard, poking his head in the room to check on his daughter. Lulu, she doesn't notice him because she's sobbing, but Dion looks up. The two exchange a knowing glance. What was that look? Cut to Lucinda's house. Lucinda scene is still in D.C. in that little house on I Street. And she would have likely been watching the Lulu Craigwell affair with a lot of interest. Maybe because the story mirrored her own or maybe because she had made it her and her six kids business to know exactly what the first families were getting into and to tell everybody.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, that is nasty. Lucinda, don't be nasty.

[Shankar Vedantam]

They may have counted her out, but they shouldn't have because Lucinda has a son named William Chase, and he's all grown up now, and she's taught him everything she knows. William and Lucinda are coming for the first families, and sadly, Lulu will find herself caught in the crossfire.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, my God. But you know what? I watch a lot of Housewives.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I.

[Nicole Hill]

So I do understand when you get iced out, like, the alternative is, like, time to be a gossip monger and start some mess.

Coming up, Lucinda starts a beehive, and Lulu prepares to become a bride. We now return to Our Ancestors Were Messy.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Back to Lulu. She's single now, but then she meets a man. His name is Mr. Sneed.

[Nicole Hill]

Mr. Who?

[Shankar Vedantam]

Mr. Sneed. S N E E D. Okay, so she's back outside. She's back outside.

[Nicole Hill]

All right. She got her toes. She doesn't have her toes. Out. It's the gilded age.

[Shankar Vedantam]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Nicole Hill]

Whatever that version is, like, hey, girl, we've got a new man. Forget that old one. We're moving on.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Mr. Sneed is a waiter at the Arlington Hotel, which is one of America's most opulent hotels. And the first families would have been like, this is a great look. The papers call him swell.

[Nicole Hill]

A waiter's a great look.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Yeah, because it's at a really, really, really fancy hotel.

[Nicole Hill]

Okay.

[Shankar Vedantam]

And because at this time to, like, put on a uniform and work in a hotel and, like, work for dignitaries and all these things, this is really, really important to them.

[Nicole Hill]

Okay?

[Shankar Vedantam]

So Lulu and Snead begin a courtship. Lulu and Snead get engaged. Lulu's dad, Richard, agrees to give them a wedding present, which is a house.

[Nicole Hill]

Ugh. Love that.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Mm. We love a house as a wedding gift. That's amazing. Lulu and her parents. And maybe Mr. Sneed draft an invite list. And although I couldn't find it, I could guess who would be on it. All the first families. The famed suffragette, Mary Church Terrell, and the Terrells.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, love Mary Church Terrell.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Langston Hughes, great uncle John Mercer Langston. And the Langstons would, of course, be there. Obviously, they have to invite the founder of the 15th Street Presbyterian Church, John F. Cook. And the Cooks, the McKinleys, the Cardozos, the Grimkes. Everybody's going to be there.

[Nicole Hill]

As in Cardozo High School Cardozos.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Right. I know. It's wild.

[Nicole Hill]

Wow.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I was like, all these last names come from this. What?

[Nicole Hill]

I know.

[Tim Howard]

I saw.

[Nicole Hill]

I heard some, and I was like, wait a minute. I know that street.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Mm. And the school. So then this question arises between the couple. I'm guessing Lulu is the one that asked this question. She says, Mr. Sneed, should we invite Mr. Craigwell to our wedding? Would you ever invite an ex to your wedding?

[Nicole Hill]

Okay, and this is gonna sound messy, if y' all are cool and your current partner does not know the extent of your friendship with this person. Yes. But if it is well known, girl, he does not need to be there. No. Stop being messy.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Okay, well, Lulu's parents send out the invitations, and the household prepares for a royal wedding. Two people who most certainly would not have received an invite from the Francis family and would have been in their feelings about it were Lucinda Seton and her now grown son, William Chase. So if you'll recall, she'd had to pull him out of school when he was nine to help support the family. And he started selling newspapers. And that's how he got to know a lot of the editors and the newsrooms and the reporters in black D.C. he grows up. He goes to Howard Law School. He passes the bar, he becomes a lawyer. And he also continues reporting and working in various newsrooms. And he lives at home on Ice street with his mom and his sisters. They're all very close. William has got this flair for the dramatic. He has dreams of becoming a renowned actor, and he actually ends up falling in love with and marrying another actor. And the two of them are in little plays together and stuff. It's very cute. Mainly, though, his time is spent lawyering, reporting, and jockeying for political appointments, because there's another way that a person can become A member of the black elite, and that is by doing the absolute most. If he can become a combination lawyer, reporter, and politician, he will be economically secure, have the most prestigious jobs anyone can have, be lifting as he climbs in matters of law, news, and politics.

[Nicole Hill]

Okay, Being a politician and a journalist at the same time gives me pause, but I do respect the husband whistle.

[Shankar Vedantam]

It's a wild combo.

[Nicole Hill]

But, like, how you gonna do both these things, sir?

[Shankar Vedantam]

But okay, totally fine. No questions. We're all on board. No notes. But the problem was, when it came to the politics, he never seemed to get the political appointments that he went after. And when he was rejected, he did not take it in stride. He would go into the office of whatever newspaper he was working for at the time, he would sit down at his typewriter, and he would go absolutely insane on everyone he held responsible for him not getting the jobs he thought he deserved. So, like, one time, Frederick Douglass was like, I will hook you up. And he's like, great, great, great, great. And then Frederick Douglass is like, no, no, I can't. He publishes all this. He's like, I hate you. I hate the way that you dress. I hate the way that you talk. I hate your hair. Like, just petty.

[Nicole Hill]

Well, okay, but if you're going scorched earth like that, that's why you're not a politician. Like, not insignificant amount of having a career is being personable and getting people to like you. If you go scorched earth when you get a no, you're gonna keep getting no's.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Right? But he doesn't care. People describe him as handsome, a climber, and very, very combative.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, he was handsome. I see why he's like that.

[Shankar Vedantam]

You're like, oh, wait, that changes everything. Okay, got it clear.

[Nicole Hill]

That's why he acts like that.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So finally, William does secure one of the jobs he'd been going after. He's named the editor of the Washington Bee, a brand new weekly paper serving the Black citizens of D.C. whose motto was stings for our enemies, honey for our friends. Oh, oh, oh. It's estimated that at this time, there are, like, 12,000 newspapers serving segregated black communities across America. But when you get to a major city like D.C. there's usually a few. So the competition is really fierce, and you need to do something to stand out. So William is like, what's up, sisters? What's up, my wife? You all are now going to be on staff at the Washington Bee. And he makes all of them like reporters and cultural critics in addition to some outside people. And then they set up offices and at Lucinda's house on I Street, there they turned the Bee into appointment reading.

[Nicole Hill]

So was it like the shade room? Essentially, this was their shade room.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Well, okay, so it was. They primarily cover news related to the fight for civil rights and social justice. They're like, covering news that all the white papers are covering, but without all the racism and with black people in it. That's like the idea. But they also make sure from time to time to just let William get behind his typewriter and do his thing. He'll be like, what's up, white leaders? I am so sick and tired of all the ways that you do not point black people to positions of power. You are so racist and you're so hypocritical. And then he'll be like, what's up, black leaders? Nothing that you're doing is going to make a difference in the black community because you are too intellectual and you're too theoretical. And then this is his favorite. He's like, what's up, first? Families. You think you're so much better than us. You think I don't know what's going on behind closed doors? A lot of his readers, who the Bee refers to as the household, that's what they call black Cece.

[Nicole Hill]

Hey, roomies. Like, okay, I know it's not the shade room, but it's giving the shade room at times.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Exactly. It's good branding. It's good branding. You gotta brand your audience. Um, the household feels looked down upon by the black elites because they're working class or they're poor or they're dark skinned or they couldn't go to college. And so behind their back, the household calls the first families the fust families.

[Nicole Hill]

The what families?

[Shankar Vedantam]

Fust F U S T, which is slang for musty.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, nothing. Musty.

[Tim Howard]

Jesus.

[Nicole Hill]

Okay. I think being called musty is the worst thing that can happen to you. Do you know?

[Shankar Vedantam]

I agree.

[Nicole Hill]

Because, like, musty isn't just stinky. Musty is like, you're funky. And you've been funky for a minute.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Can I have you read on page two what the be said about them?

[Nicole Hill]

Yes. Let me see. They wouldn't be caught dead with an ordinary Negro, and they foolishly expect to come absorbed by the white race. Ooh, drag them.

[Shankar Vedantam]

No. Okay, but here's the thing. You're Lulu, so you're the fusty one. How would you feel reading this?

[Nicole Hill]

Okay. And this is what? Okay, this makes me think it's that thing of, hey, we're all black people, et cetera. Et cetera. But. And I admit sometimes when I see tweets about this where people complaining about, quote, unquote, black elite or, like, black college educated people, there's something in you that inherently gets defensive. Even though you'll have these conversations about men, about white supremacy, and you say, hey, you gotta take a hard look at X, Y, Z. But when the finger points to you, it admittedly does not feel good.

[Shankar Vedantam]

And then I do feel like people start bringing out their. Like, no, no, no, no. Their cards, where it's like, well, my dad, my parents. I'm a first generation college graduate. Like, I don't. I'm. Don't put me with them. Like, my family grew up with no money. You just want to start. You do these things.

[Nicole Hill]

And it takes a lot of work to check that and say, okay, only hit dogs holler. If I'm hollering, what am I doing? What's happening? And that takes a lot of maturity and a lot of thought.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So back to William. He is assaulted twice and sued five times for libel over his articles. He's like, I don't care. There's this section of the paper called the Clara and Louise column. Every week, the paper publishes a letter from an anonymous Clara to an anonymous Louise, or vice versa. And in the letters, among other things, they share the torrid details about the ups and the downs and the scandals of the first families.

[Nicole Hill]

Okay, Lady Whistledown.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Lady Whistledown to a T. And the first families hate this column. Their complaints about it reach such a fever pitch that William, who is normally like, don't care. Don't care. Don't care. Has to release a statement being like, sorry, I don't know who Clara and Louise are. I understand your pain. However, I am never gonna stop. I'm never gonna back down. Every week, tune in, because I'm going to be publishing all of their insights into your scandals and your Hypocrisies. Mmm. On November 27, 1886, just five days before Lulu and Sneed's wedding, the Washington Bee publishes a bombshell in their weekly gossip column, which, as you'll recall, is written in the form of letters between an anonymous Clara and an anonymous Louise. I have compiled a medley of the letters that Clara and Louise wrote to each other over the next two weeks about the scandal, which I would love for us to read right now, if you would. I think I'm playing Louise.

[Nicole Hill]

Okay, perfect.

[Shankar Vedantam]

If you will play Clara. Dear Clara, I hardly know how to begin or what to relate first, but the most sensational thing that has ever happened in our society is the elopement of Miss Lulu Francis.

[Nicole Hill]

Girl, not you eloping child. Dear Louise, your letter to the household last week was read with a great deal of interest. I never was made more surprised in my life.

[Shankar Vedantam]

It will be remembered that Mr. Cregwell had been going with Ms. Frances for a number of years. And it was understood that the engagement between them had been canceled.

[Nicole Hill]

Mr. Crekwell was persuaded to break the engagement by a lady connected with the Francis family.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Oh, Dionne. I think it's Dionne.

[Nicole Hill]

Nasty work. Nasty work. Then Ms. Francis went to Harrisburg on a visit and Mr. Cragwell did not greet her with any respect, nor did he write to her for over a year. Still, she said that he was the only man she ever loved and if she married another, it would be for spite. The lady was told by a friend not to marry for spite. Okay, Lulu. Lulu, why you letting. Why you let men playing? Let's just continue because I have. I have a lot of thoughts. Let's continue.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Mr. Sneed expressed tender feelings for the lady. He gave her his heart and they were engaged. And he went to the expense of making their wedding a brilliant affair.

[Nicole Hill]

The lady asked her friend would it be wise to give Mr. Craigwell an invite to her marriage. She was told no. Mr. Craigwell, on the reception of an invitation from Ms. Francis and Mr. Need announcing their marriage, immediately left Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and came to D.C. once in the city, Mr. Cragwell remarked to his friend that he would never leave D.C. without Ms. Lulu Francis. But finding that he could not persuade her parents to bless his reunion with Ms. Francis, he returned to Harrisburg. Mr. Cregwell could not rest in Harrisburg. So he returned again to D.C. and inaugurated another scheme. This time he solicited the services of the sister of Ms. Lulu. While out walking with Mr. Sneed, Ms. Lulu called at her sister's and told Mr. Sneed to wait outside as she wanted to see her sister about a dress. Mr. Cragwell was there and he pleaded with her to become his wife.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Mr. Cragwell told Ms. Francis that he always loved her and that it was hard to see his first love married to another man who would make her life miserable. At this juncture, Ms. Francis said, but my invitations are out for my marriage to Mr. Sneed. Oh, I can fix that, said Mr. Cregwell. After deciding what steps were best to pursue, it's said that Ms. Frances, Mr. Cregwell, her sister and her brother in law traveled to the residence of Reverend Dr. Sunderland, who married President King Grover Cleveland.

[Nicole Hill]

In the afternoon of Wednesday, November 2, the marriage license was procured and they were married. Dr. Sunderland said that he thought the affair a romance and that it did not excite his suspicions. It was settled and poor Mr. Sneed was made a victim of despair.

[Shankar Vedantam]

The household is started and society is up in arms. To think that Ms. Francis would be guilty of such an act.

[Nicole Hill]

Mr. And Mrs. Francis are heartbroken to think that their daughter would treat them so.

[Shankar Vedantam]

She has been reared a lady and looked upon and respected as such. Her parents consist of the best elements of our society.

[Nicole Hill]

This is Sneed's last song. Where Has My Lulu Gone? Is the song I shall sing the chestnut bells are ringing and the boys are singing Sneed, Sneed, Snead oh, Sneed where has thy Lulu gone? I have been told that Mr. Sneed has received a just retribution. It's said that he had many sympathizing friends who regretted that he was disappointed and many young ladies who were pleased.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I saw Mr. Sneed at the fraternals last Wednesday evening, and he approached Major Fleetwood and said, major, I carried you an invitation to my wedding. But I suppose that you have heard that my intended has gone off with another. The Major laughed and said, yes, Sneed, I don't know whether to congratulate you or to extend my condolences. Mr. Sneed, in reply, said that he would like to have his congratulations. Yours lovingly, yours truly, Louise Clara. All right, girl, go ahead.

[Nicole Hill]

I have so much to say. I have so much to say. And it really is giving Lori Harvey. I'm glad that's who we went with. I feel like Mr. Sneed is Michael B. Jordan. Oh, Mr. Sneat is Mr. Sneed is Michael B. Jordan. Which, you know, Michael. Call me. I'm around. I have so many thoughts. Because on one hand, it's better to end a marriage before it's miserable. She clearly was not into it. He was. Although, you know, at the end, he's like, it was it. He feels very drakey. It's very like, her loss. And I mean that derogatory. That being said, don't spin the block like, no, if that man left once, he'll leave again. And when he does it again, you're gonna feel so stupid. I just like, oh, I'm gonna get you back, baby. Like, I guess. But she let that man spin the block. And here we are. What a scandal. I think it would have been better if she had said, you know, I'm not feeling It. Call it off, maybe wait some time, lay low a little bit. But to run off and get married? Also, her sister was in cahoots. We can't forget this. It's not all on Lulu. Her sister was in cahoots also. Who was. Was it her mom who was all like, don't marry that girl?

[Shankar Vedantam]

No, they said it was a friend, so that's why I feel like Dion. Okay, so this is my conspiracy theory that I have cooked up in my head based on no evidence. I feel like Richard, Lulu's dad, went to Deon, Lulu's best friend, and he was like, deon, my daughter cannot marry. That broke Barber. I need you to go to him and tell him that if he really cares for Lulu, the best thing he can do for her is to leave her. And so then Dion, like, went to him. She said that Lulu was like, oh, my God, he left me. I want to be with him. And maybe Richard gave him some money because, you know, that's how rich people do it.

[Nicole Hill]

That is true.

[Shankar Vedantam]

So then Mr. Cregwell leaves town. Lulu is like, oh, my God. Like, I can't live without him. Dion's like, you'll be fine. Lulu's like, should I invite him to my wedding? Dion is like, girl, no. Then, boom, boom, boom, he's back in her life. They're married.

[Nicole Hill]

Also, it's this thing of. And this is something my mom always said, and, of course, there are exceptions to this rule, but it's a thing of, if your child is dating someone you don't like, don't make a fuss, because that will only drive them into their arms.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Oh, yeah.

[Nicole Hill]

And that's exactly what they did.

You came for the mess. Now stay for the rest. When Our Ancestors Were Messy continues. And now for the thrilling conclusion of this week's installment of Our Ancestors Were Messy.

[Shankar Vedantam]

After the elopement, it's reported that Cragwell went to see about making arrangements for him and Lulu to get to Pennsylvania, and Lulu and her sister went home to face their parents. Allegedly, Mr. Sneed is also there.

[Nicole Hill]

Me, I would just fake my own death.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Yeah. How would your parents react to you showing up at the door being like.

[Nicole Hill]

Okay, Mary, okay, the thing is, I'm an only child, so the amount of conniption that would be had.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You would never survive it. Mm.

[Nicole Hill]

Mm.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Unfortunately, there's no record of what went down at the Francis home during this meeting. But at the end, Mr. Sneed is sent away, and that's the last we ever hear of him. Now Richard Francis, Lulu's dad, and his wife, Lulu's mom, they are humiliated in front of all the first families, the household, and potentially hundreds of thousands of recorded black newspaper readers across the nation. Because I found articles about this elopement in papers in New York, in Alabama and Missouri, and a lot of them were pulling their reporting from the beast. So this is bad. Also, since Lulu was on the radar of the Washington Post, White D.C. may have known about all of this, too. And so Richard may have had to deal with his coworkers and clients whispering about this in the US And Senate as well as everywhere that he went in D.C. not long after the scandal in 1888, Richard passes away suddenly.

[Nicole Hill]

Aw, he's stressed.

[Shankar Vedantam]

His funeral is held at the 15th Street Presbyterian Church today. Bartenders still remember and revere Richard for his incredible mint juleps. When I was doing the research for this episode, I kept getting linked to all these magazines and all these articles about, like, famous black bartenders and recipes, famous recipes created by black bartenders. And there was Richard's. It's the Dick Francis special for a mint julep. And I will link the recipe in the show notes. I never did find another article after the scandal that mentioned Richard and Lulu together. So I don't know what their father, daughter relationship was after that or at the time that he passed away. But in the bios of his that I came across, and in his obituary, he's listed as having left behind a wife and one son. And that's it. Dang.

[Nicole Hill]

So both the daughters got got.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Maybe both the daughters, I don't know. Dang.

[Nicole Hill]

Dang. Her daddy's strict.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I know. The Washington Bee continues to grow in readership and prestige post elopement scandal. And they gain a reputation across D.C. and in history as a paper that fought fearlessly for civil rights and social justice, in addition to the Claire and Louise gossip column. But that's less so in the history books. That's in the back. In 1893, Lucinda passes away with the Washington Beast still running from her home on I Street, which she managed to hold onto against all odds and then pass on to her children. So shout out to Lucinda.

[Nicole Hill]

I know that's right.

[Shankar Vedantam]

William keeps the paper going right up until his death in 1921, which made it at that time, one of the longest running black newspapers in America. The D.C. first Families. You know, it's hard to track down exactly what happened to them or all their wealth. Obviously, D.C. people will recognize some of the names Seton, McKinley, but unfortunately those places are named after the enslavers that the first families shared names with, not the first families themselves. Although I will say Cardozo is named after Francis Cardozo, who was a famous black clergyman and politician. So we got that one. But here's what we do know. Charles county and PG County, Maryland, right outside of D.C. are the richest majority black counties in the nation, and they have been for a very long time. And I don't know why these places in Maryland became bastions of black wealth, but it does seem like in some way the legacy of the first families in D.C. still lives on. But I wish someone would look into this, because I would love to know, like, why do they congregate there?

[Nicole Hill]

What is it about Pretty Girl county that we can't stay away from?

[Shankar Vedantam]

Uh, uh, uh. As for our newlyweds, Mr. And Mrs. Cragwell, they spent a little bit of time out in Pennsylvania, and then right before the turn of the century, they moved to Seattle, Washington. And once they get there, they make their way into black history. Now, I can only find a record of what Mr. Cregwell did because of the times, but I know, I believe and feel that. I know that Lulu was there right beside him, holding him down. Can I have you read the summary of Mr. Craigwell's life, which was written up for his obituary and published in Seattle's black newspaper, the Northwest enterprise?

[Nicole Hill]

Okay, Northwest. Mr. John Fields Cregwell, pioneer resident of Seattle and veteran barber, died Monday morning from a heart ailment. Mr. Cragwell was born in Virginia in 1862. After graduation from high school, young Cregwell moved to Pennsylvania, but later returned to Washington, where he engaged in the barber business. In 1885, Mr. Cregwell was married to Miss Louise Francis by the same minister that married Grover Cleveland. They moved to Seattle in 1890, where the young barber again started his business. His shop was a gathering place for business leaders during and after the days of the Alaska gold rush. During his 56 years as a barber, he shaved many notables, including presidents Theodore Roosevelt and William McKinley, John Jacob Astor, Alexander Graham Bell, and many others. Besides his business, Mr. Craigwell was interested in in several civic affairs. He used to take an active part in politics, and at the time of his death, he held one of the highest offices of the Presbyterian church. Surviving are his widow, Mrs. Louise Craigwell, two daughters, three grandchildren, and one great grandchild. On November 24, 1935, Mr. And Mrs. Cragwell celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary, which hundreds of Seattle citizens attended. Oh, they got a happy good for you, girl. Okay, you can spin the block this one time, but never do it again.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Craig well passes away in 1937, and Lulu passes away in 1942. And as much as I would love to tell you that that's the end, I want you to have this happy ending. There is one last part.

[Nicole Hill]

Oh, no. Oh, why are they like this?

[Shankar Vedantam]

See?

[Nicole Hill]

Don't spin the block. I told you. I told you. Don't do it. Do not text that man.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Yes, Lulu and Craig well were among Seattle's earliest black citizens and members of Seattle's black elite. And, yeah, Craig well does go on to become a barber and the city's most successful black entrepreneur. He has a staff of 11 tonsillary artists in fashionable downtown barbershops. But about those shops. So white people really like to be waited on by black people immediately following the end of slavery, but they didn't want other black people around also being served. So some barbers would guarantee their all white clientele that the staff would be all black, but that they wouldn't serve any black people. And members of Seattle's black press accused Cragwell of this practice, and they call him a segregationist barber. It's very hard to be in it, but not of it. Of course. There's so much more that happened, but for now, that is the story of the scandalous cross class romance of Ms. Lulu Francis. Wow.

[Nicole Hill]

Gilded Age Lori Harvey, you took me through a lot just now.

[Shankar Vedantam]

A lot. Do you think it's possible to be in it but not of it? To be operating in these spaces of power but not adopting their practices and their ways of. Of thinking and treating people? Ooh.

[Nicole Hill]

This is a question that I think about a lot. Just living my own life and living in D.C. i. I would like to think that you can be around and not be dragged down by the grips and allure of power, but I know that as humans, we don't do that. It's almost like the ring and Lord of the Rings. Like, you're around it and the pool becomes so strong that you can't say no. And then, like, what do you become? You know, I would like to think that someone is strong enough to do it, but I don't know if that person exists.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Yeah, that's real. How are you feeling about the tactic of lift as we climb as a strategy for 1886? What did we gain? What did we lose?

[Nicole Hill]

Okay, honestly, there are things about. There are things about it that worked at the time, so I can't begrudge them that. And I guess like, the other option would have led to even more death and destruction for black people. So I get the route that they took, and, you know, talk about Monday morning quarterbacking. But, you know, what if we say, okay, we're just gonna do this for two years, and then, like, we have to be real people after this. You know, we can't be doing this in 2024. Like, devise a plan where this strategy is sunsetted by 2024.

[Shankar Vedantam]

What would you. What would you have us do?

[Nicole Hill]

Probably disengage completely. Just stop caring. Like, just being like, nothing is going to work. If people want to be racist, they're just gonna do it, and they will find any and every reason to do it. At this point, who cares about the white gays? What are we up to? That is the strategy I would deploy.

[Shankar Vedantam]

Now, what do you think about looking at black history, starting from the messy beginnings? Cause Craig Will is, like, in Seattle. That name is a big deal. He is, like, seen as a big pioneer and as a person who's done this incredible thing. And you start the story from the time that he got to Seattle, and then, you know, you kind of talk about all the hard work he did, everything he overcame his incredible resilience and business acumen, and he's, you know, an amazing black capitalist. But we don't talk, you know, about this other part.

[Nicole Hill]

Yeah, I don't know. I kind of like the mess because it's also a reminder that something my mom would say to me over and over again is, there's nothing new under the sun. And I would think, I don't think that's true, but this makes me realize, no, there really is nothing new under the sun. And I think we would all give ourselves a lot more grace if we looked at our ancestors as people and knew that they could get messy, too. Sometimes even messier, because this is wild.

[Shankar Vedantam]

I'm like, five days before your wedding.

[Nicole Hill]

Like, that is wild. Like, she loved that. Man down.

[Tim Howard]

That was episode one of Our Ancestors Were Messy, hosted and created by Nicole Hill, in conversation with Jonathan Hill, the host of vox's podcast, Explain it to Me. Our Ancestors Were Messy was executive produced by AA Hernandez with sound design by Helene De Hout, story production by Martina Abrahams. Ilunga research by Chioke Ianson, and story editing by Chante Hill. You can listen to Our Ancestors Were Messy wherever you get your podcasts and you can support the show by going to our ancestors were messy.com supercastle proxy is a completely independent production. If you like the show and want emotional investigative journalism to exist, go to patreon.com ProxyPodcast to become a member, you'll get main feed episodes without ads as well as exclusive bonus episodes. This month I talked to Nicole Hill about why our feelings about history matters and we get into the backstory of our ancestors were messy and what historians are saying about the show.

[Shankar Vedantam]

They were like, you are in the archives. You're digging into them to find out their relevance to today. That makes you an archivist. You're a historian and an archivist. But I'm like, are you guys? Did you listen to it though?

[Tim Howard]

Because I'm being really silly to listen. Go to patreon.com ProxyPodcast okay, be good everyone. See you soon.

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[Shankar Vedantam]

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