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- [00:02]
Host
Hey, everybody.
- [00:04]
Yowei Shah
Welcome to Proxy. I'm Yowei Shah, your emotional investigative journalist. This week, as we work hard on episodes that will be coming out soon, we are taking the unusual step of sharing a Patreon only bonus episode on the wider feed. This is one of my favorite bonus episodes. We've made one which wrestles with a really challenging question. What do we do with people who've committed sexual harm? Elissa Ackerman is a criminal justice professor, also a survivor of sexual violence. And one day, her friend asked her to speak to a group of men in a sex offense program. Elissa had never shared her story face to face with men who'd committed rape, and she was terrified. But in the process of opening up about her experience, the men opening up about theirs, Alyssa was able to ask questions she'd never asked before, like how did they live with themselves? Did they still think about their victims? For Alyssa, that day ended up being unexpectedly powerful and healing, and it gave her this. Could proxies be used in restorative justice for victims of sexual assault? Restorative justice.
- [01:20]
Host
Maybe you've heard of it.
- [01:21]
Yowei Shah
It focuses on repairing harm done to victims rather than just punishing offenders. And one of the cornerstones of this approach is a face to face meeting between the victim and offender, which with sexual assault, can obviously be retraumatizing, which is one of the reasons it's generally not done. But Alyssa wanted to see if there was a way to do it safely and responsibly. And since that accidental Proxy conversation, she's pioneered the use of proxies in restorative justice with cases of sexual harm. She's facilitated hundreds of these conversations by now. And she's written a book and founded an org called ampersands, Restorative justice, all with the goal of preventing further sexual violence. In this conversation, I talked to Alyssa about her work with MeToo cases in particular. I have to say, this was a challenging conversation, but also a hopeful one. It's not often I hear about men trying to make amends in a going well. If you want to hear more conversations like this, go to patreon.com ProxyPodcast to sign up.
- [02:36]
Elissa Ackerman
Sponsor.
- [02:36]
Yowei Shah
Starting at just $5 a month, you'll get access to exclusive bonus interviews which come out once a month on the patreon. We got 12 and counting so far. Okay, here is my conversation with Alyssa Ackerman.
- [02:58]
Host
Okay, so ever since MeToo, it feels.
- [03:01]
Yowei Shah
Like there's been a lot of conversations.
- [03:03]
Host
Around what to do with people who do bad things and how to hold them Accountable without banishing them forever. It feels like there's a lot of unresolved questions around that, and it seems like you have been on the front lines of figuring this out. How many people have reached out to you for restorative justice since MeToo?
- [03:26]
Bobby
Hundreds. Hundreds of people, survivors and those who have caused harm.
- [03:32]
Host
Wow. There's this guy you talk about in your book named Bobby who is moved by the MeToo movement to reach out to you in 2018 to participate in a restorative justice process and be held accountable for something he did decades ago. Can you describe Bobby and what his situation was?
- [03:52]
Bobby
Yeah. So Bobby is in his 60s, and when he was in his early 20s, committed a rape of a woman that he met in a bar. They went back to her place. They were making out. He wanted it to go further. She said no, and he didn't listen. And when he finished, he left the apartment, never to go back. Never saw her again. It stuck with him all of these years. But it was, you know, in his late 50s, early 60s, when the MeToo movement began, and he had this moment of clarity where he realized, like, I did this terrible thing. I raped a woman. And I know I'm not the only one because I'm a generally a good guy, and if I'm generally a good guy and could behave this way, there have to be others who have done the same. So that's where Bobby was when I met him.
- [04:57]
Host
Did he try to turn himself in? Did he ever try to find that woman?
- [05:02]
Bobby
So he went to the police and, you know, disclosed that he had committed a date rape. And they said, there's really nothing we can do. The statute of limitations is up. I don't recall if Bobby looked for the woman that he raped. He lives in the same town where he committed the rape in his 20s, and he recognizes now that he could pass her in the grocery store and not know it.
- [05:25]
Host
Oh, my gosh. Because he doesn't remember her face.
- [05:28]
Bobby
Yeah.
- [05:29]
Host
Wow. So he reached out to you. What was his ask?
- [05:34]
Bobby
Yeah. So we had already been in conversation for quite some time, and he said, like, I want to be involved in accountability work, but I recognize that I've never been held accountable for the harm that I committed. Would you put together an accountability circle for me so that I can take full responsibility for the harm that I caused? And I agreed to do that.
- [05:58]
Host
And in this case, this was a vicarious restorative justice process because he literally could not find the woman that he had raped.
- [06:08]
Elissa Ackerman
Right.
- [06:09]
Host
So, yeah. Talk about what you. You did and what considerations were you thinking about?
- [06:15]
Bobby
So I asked three other survivors if they would join me in doing an accountability process for Bobby. I asked somebody else to facilitate that process. And we rented a space, the basement of a coffee house. I remember Bobby walking into the room, and it was actually the first time we met in person. And he had this idea of what the process was going to be like, and it was just us going to be berating him about our experiences of rape. But he walked into the room, and I got this big smile and gave him a big hug. And I think that sort of set the stage for it. Like, he was so nervous. And in a restorative process, there are a series of opening questions that sort of set the stage. It's a very sacred process.
- [07:02]
Elissa Ackerman
Right.
- [07:03]
Bobby
And the circle serves as the container to be able to hold all of the difficult things that are said.
- [07:11]
Elissa Ackerman
Right.
- [07:11]
Bobby
So there's often a centerpiece. We write the values that we're going to bring to the space on note cards, and we put that in the center of the circle. People use a talking piece, so only the person holding the talking piece can speak. We had one of those, and it was just a very deliberate process where each of us talked about the impact that the harm had on us. And Bobby talked about all of the ways that this had impacted his life, which we needed to hear. He talked about drug addiction, alcoholism. The drug and alcohol addiction went untreated for almost 18 years before he finally got help for it. Binge eating, attending Overeaters Anonymous. So he talked about all of those things, and he was really surprised, I think, by the way, that all of us showed up. Again, survivors have to be ready for a process. And so if survivors are going to come in angry and screaming and seeking vengeance, they're not ready for a restorative process. But the four of us in that space, I mean, it's been well over at least a decade. For me, it's been 25 years. So all of us were long past the harm. We had all gone through therapy. We had all done the healing work to be able to be present in a conversation where we could be kind and present with somebody who had perpetrated harm. And one of the. I think one of the most profound outcomes of that process, there were two. One is that one of the survivors in the process talked about her experience of alcohol and drug abuse and an eating disorder and just, you know, a problematic relationship with food. And Bobby talked about those same things. And so for the two of them, it was this moment of connection that in the aftermath of rape, whether as a harm doer or as a survivor, their experiences were so similar in the aftermath, harming their bodies in multiple ways to deal with the effects of the trauma that they caused or the trauma that they experienced. The other really profound moment was that, you know, I said earlier, Bobby didn't know anything about this woman that he raped. But in talking with the four of us and hearing our experiences in that conversation, he remembered her first name.
- [09:51]
Host
Wow.
- [09:52]
Bobby
She became a human being to him because we were human beings sharing our experiences.
- [10:01]
Elissa Ackerman
Hmm.
- [10:02]
Host
This thing that you said around one of the survivors feeling so connected to Bobby because their experiences after the rape were so similar in terms of harming their bodies, It's a bit challenging to hear that because it feels almost unbelievable that the experience that a survivor has could be similar at all to the experience of a rapist. You know, can you unpack that moment more?
- [10:34]
Bobby
So this particular survivor, I've worked with her for a very long time. We are close colleagues, we are close friends, and this was the first time that I had ever seen her cry about her experience.
- [10:46]
Elissa Ackerman
Right.
- [10:46]
Bobby
She's usually very stoic. She tells the story is almost rote at this point, which is true for many survivors. And because she's a professional survivor of sorts, the emotions that come with it, we have to keep those in check when we're talking in front of big crowds. We can't break down in those moments. So this was the first time I saw her in tears. The other thing that you should know is that this survivor went through a criminal legal process, and the man who raped her was given a 43 year prison sentence. And she, you know, was in the courtroom for that sentencing, but there was no part of that process where she felt humanized or where she felt like the man who raped her had been humanized. She didn't get any closure from that process. Even though the district attorney's office said, you will feel healed, you will feel justice, she didn't get any of that. But in this process with Bobbi, she got that connection with him. She got to understand better how or why people who commit rape, like, why their brain ticks as it does. And what she learned from that, I think, and what I've learned over my years doing this work with harm doers is that we forget that they are humans too, with real emotions. And we think oftentimes that after somebody commits a rape, they just forget about it and move on with their lives. They don't. They traumatize themselves. And it's not the Same kind of trauma, right? I would never put the two in the same camp. The trauma that is inflicted on another against their will and the trauma you inflict on yourself because you are causing harm, those are two different things, but it is trauma nonetheless. And so when you have a moment of connection where you have a moment of shared humanity, you can see, oh, this is a human being, too, with real emotions. It doesn't excuse what they've done, but it helps us to understand why they may act out in the ways that they do in the aftermath.
- [12:52]
Elissa Ackerman
Right.
- [12:52]
Bobby
If the bar you've set for yourself is, I committed rape, then it allows you to do all sorts of things to yourself and to other people, because the bar is so low. And it is only when we honor your humanity that we raise that bar. And so the criminal legal process disempowers people from taking that responsibility, from being their best selves, because you're just that thing that we've labeled you. But in a restorative process, if we say we see your humanity, we want to empower you to be your best self. That's a beautiful feeling for people, even for those who have committed really despicable things. And if we want to ensure a world where sexual harm doesn't continue.
- [13:44]
Elissa Ackerman
Then.
- [13:45]
Bobby
We have to see the humanity and the people who commit those harms, or we're just going to keep the cycle going.
- [13:53]
Host
That's so interesting that, like, committing a rape could cause you to dehumanize yourself because you start to label yourself a rapist, and the system and society labels you a rapist. But there are cases, I'm just thinking about, like, the kind of defenses that I've heard in the media, people who are called out for bad behavior. And then there's this, like, no, but I'm a nice person. It feels like in those cases, there is a kind of insistence on their humanity.
- [14:31]
Bobby
And you can be a nice person and still make a terrible decision to harm people.
- [14:37]
Elissa Ackerman
Right?
- [14:38]
Bobby
Like, none of us are the worst thing we've ever done. None of us are the worst thing that's ever happened to us. We are so much more than that. And yet, when it comes to sexual harm, that is the thing that we want to label the person.
- [14:52]
Elissa Ackerman
Right?
- [14:52]
Bobby
And I think this is part of the problem with the MeToo movement. There's many, many wonderful things about it.
- [14:59]
Elissa Ackerman
Right.
- [14:59]
Bobby
The fact that it allowed so many people to come forward and use their voice was incredible. And we have started to conflate who somebody is with a choice that they made. Now there's A difference between a Harvey Weinstein and and Aziz Ansari. They're not the same. And because we don't have the right language yet to effectively talk about harm that we've committed, we end up putting people who misread cues didn't understand, and society is at fault for that.
- [15:39]
Elissa Ackerman
Right.
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Bobby
Should people understand cues? Absolutely. But they don't.
- [15:46]
Elissa Ackerman
Right.
- [15:46]
Bobby
And we see this on college campuses all the time. We do not teach young people about healthy sexuality, about consent, about sex. We don't have the conversations we should be having. And then when somebody violates a consent boundary, all of a sudden they're a rapist. Who's going to take responsibility for that? Because rapist means terrible person. And so many people who violate consent boundaries, who don't understand non verbal cues, they've made terrible, egregious mistakes and choices. But that doesn't mean they're bad people. And I think that's a big problem with the MeToo movement. Because anybody who has violated a sexual boundary, anybody who has caused sexual harm, is put in this camp of bad people. And so they would rather not be accountable, not take responsibility, than be put in that camp.
- [16:47]
Host
It strikes me that also part of what might be happening is like it doesn't feel true to them.
- [16:53]
Elissa Ackerman
Sure.
- [16:54]
Host
If we're taking this statement to be true that you are not the worst thing that you have ever done to another person. So then to be called all these labels, maybe part of what is like the defensive denial, whatever, it's because it doesn't feel true to them.
- [17:11]
Bobby
I think you're onto something here when you say it doesn't feel true to them because it's not true.
- [17:17]
Elissa Ackerman
Right, Right.
- [17:18]
Bobby
There's a really great book that just came out. It's called Speaking of Rape. It's by Danielle Tumineo Hansen. Dr. Danielle Tumino Hansen. And it's all about this idea that we do not have the right language to talk about this. Right. When we think of rape, we think of stranger in an alleyway at night with a knife. And that image of rape, while it happens, is actually really rare. Somebody who rapes somebody at knifepoint in the alleyway is different than somebody who violates a consent boundary when drunk. That does not take away from the impact that that violation had because that violation that Bobby committed may have had lifelong consequences for the woman that he harmed.
- [18:07]
Elissa Ackerman
Right.
- [18:08]
Bobby
And I think that because we conflate all of these things, we aren't able to have the nuanced conversations that we need to have. What Bobby did was despicable he raped a woman. And that woman may have lifelong consequences because of that rape. But Bobby is more than that moment in his life. And he has spent years now trying to be accountable for that harm. I would not have done that process with Bobby if Bobby had raped somebody at knifepoint in an alleyway because that case requires so many more layers of work to get to a process.
- [18:53]
Host
Is there anyone you wouldn't do a restorative justice process with? What about if Harvey Weinstein came to you and wanted to do an accountability restorative justice process? Or what about a serial rapist?
- [19:09]
Bobby
So there are definitely certain kinds of cases that I won't take. People who have engaged in egregious forms of violence during the process of the rape or who caused like above and beyond levels of humiliation to the person that they harmed. I wouldn't take those cases until they went through sex offense specific treatment. I don't take cases where children are involved. So if the harm doer is an adult and the person who is harmed is still a minor, I won't take those cases. And I think other kinds of cases like serial rapist or Harvey Weinstein are case specific. There are certain markers that I need to see. I would need to see completion of sex offense specific treatment where the therapist says that they believe that person is able to be in an accountability process. So it really is case specific. If people are in complete denial, if people are justifying their behavior, I'm not going to engage a process with them. If I see that there is momentum, if I see if there's even a small window where we may be able to have conversations about accountability, I'm willing to engage those conversations. It doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to bring a survivor into those conversations unless and until the person is ready to be fully accountable and responsible for the harm.
- [20:37]
Host
I want to go back to the story of the session, what happened at the end.
- [20:45]
Bobby
None of us have had the opportunity or will have the opportunity to sit with the direct harm doer in our cases. But we talked about what we needed to see from Bobby. And then the facilitator closed the whole session with reading an excerpt from something that Ashley Judd had said at the height of the MeToo movement. But the things that we asked him for were to think about working with survivor groups. That lived experience is so vital to prevention work, to restorative work. And so we said we needed to see that from him, that the conversation didn't stop with this accountability circle, that in fact this was just the start that he could be a voice to ask men and other harm doers who are not men to be accountable, that it's not the end of the world to sit in a room and name the harm that you've committed to a group of survivors. Now, the difference is he's passed the statute of limitations, he cannot be prosecuted for it, he never served prison time. And so I think for some survivors, that feels illegitimate or that he's really, really privileged as a white cisgender heterosexual man who was never held legally responsible for the harm he caused. But nevertheless, he has an important voice and can use that to get other people to be accountable because of the lived experience that he had of this process. And that's what we asked of him.
- [22:20]
Host
Yeah, I was going to ask about that. I think a lot of people listening might think, oh, Bobby didn't face material consequences, he didn't lose his job, he, he didn't go to jail, he was never publicly shamed and he was never able to make amends to the woman he raped. What would you say to that?
- [22:40]
Bobby
Yeah, so all of those things, those material consequences feel necessary for some people, in particular that, well, he never went to prison. Prison is not effective at reducing recidivism. Prison is not prevention. Prison is traumatic and begets more violence. So it makes us feel good to know that people have faced that material consequence, but it actually makes us less safe. Now, that might not be true for the Harvey Weinsteins of the world. There are people who do not play well with others that we need to incapacitate, we need to take out of society. But those people are few and far between. So if we are looking to end sexual violence, then it is not necessarily material consequences that are going to end it. As much as it feels good to have those material consequences, what's going to end it is helping people to understand impact, helping people to understand what consent really is. How to talk about sex, how to talk about harm, how to handle a disclosure.
- [24:03]
Elissa Ackerman
Right.
- [24:03]
Bobby
To start having these conversations with young people when they're very, very young, and to be having conversations with people who have caused harm to ensure that they don't do it again. Accountability has to be tied directly to the harm. Prison isn't that. And so the consequences that people should face are things that help them to learn about impact, to work directly with survivors if it is safe for them to do so, to talk publicly about the harm that they committed and their understanding of that impact. Those are things that lead to ending the cycle of violence. It just doesn't feel as good as the material consequences and the vengeance that we seek. So I would urge people to think about that. Vengeance feels really good, but it actually doesn't make us safe.
- [25:03]
Host
So I have to say I haven't heard this perspective that you have voiced that much. I'm going to read something that you wrote in your book. We won't be able to accomplish what Ashley Judd was calling for, navigating the duality of having aggressed and addressing abuse of power with culpability and integrity. While society points fingers at men who have behaved inappropriately, those who have engaged in sexual misconduct will become defensive, looking for every possible excuse for their behavior. Only when the opportunity for safe and structured processes is provided will authentic remorse and vulnerability thrive. I found this challenging to read, and I'm just going to be honest. It felt like the teensiest bit. Victim blaming feels like you're expecting victims to provide a safe environment for their aggressors when the aggressors provided the opposite of a safe space. And a lot of these people can't even accept accountability.
- [26:05]
Bobby
Yeah. It's a really important point that you bring up. There is never an expectation for any victim or survivor to participate in these conversations. And it's actually one of the reasons why I think vicarious restorative justice is so powerful. Because there are survivors who want to create spaces for these conversations because they understand the importance of honoring this duality, that until we can create these spaces where both the person who was harmed and the person who caused the harm can engage in a safe conversation, we are never going to get people to be authentically accountable. Restorative justice has to be completely voluntary. And that is why vicarious conversations work. Because there are survivors who want the opportunity to create these spaces for their own healing, but also because they want to help prevent harm from happening again. You know, education and healing should never be on the backs of the marginalized and the oppressed. And yet, if we want people to learn, we have to have people with lived experience who are willing to be part of those conversations.
- [27:25]
Elissa Ackerman
Hmm.
- [27:27]
Host
Is there any point to pointing fingers the way that we've been doing it in MeToo? Like, I'm just thinking about the huge changes in attitudes and also just like, norms about what is acceptable or not when it comes to behavior.
- [27:47]
Bobby
Yeah. So if there is something that a survivor feels is going to be helpful for them, I will support them. And if that means publicly calling out, pointing the finger at somebody, then I support them. But if we are looking for systemic change, if we are looking to end the cycle of sexual violence. Pointing fingers is not how we're going to make that change. We make that change by calling people in.
- [28:18]
Elissa Ackerman
Right.
- [28:18]
Bobby
When we call people out, we make them really, really defensive. Somebody who's been called out is gonna say, it wasn't me. I didn't do it. I didn't understand. And that's where so much more harm is perpetuated. But when we call people into conversation, and sometimes they're not ready, and sometimes they'll never be ready, but some people will be.
- [28:41]
Host
I feel like your work points at this disconnect, wanting to be punishing of the people who have bad behavior. And I have to admit, I have participated. I've wanted vengeance. You know what I mean? So there's like that on the other hand, and then there's how a lot of people feel about the criminal justice system and that it does not provide justice and it harms communities. And there's this disconnect between these two attitudes amongst the same group of people often.
- [29:14]
Bobby
So I live in that disconnect. And as you said earlier, I'm on the front lines trying to create something that works, and I get a lot of pushback for that. But if we're not willing to try, then we're never going to succeed. So are we successful every time? No. Are mistakes made? Absolutely. But we are trying to build the bridge for this disconnect.
- [29:41]
Elissa Ackerman
Right.
- [29:41]
Bobby
The criminal legal system doesn't work. We want vengeance. We also want to put an end to sexual violence. How do we do that? It was what I learned in the first class I took all of those years ago. If we're not willing to go upstream and work with the people who have caused the harm, we are never going to prevent it from happening.
- [30:02]
Host
Thank you so much, Alyssa.
- [30:04]
Elissa Ackerman
Cheers.
- [30:05]
Bobby
It was a pleasure.
- [30:08]
Yowei Shah
That was Alyssa Ackerman. She's a criminal justice professor at California State Fullerton and the co founder of Ampersands Restorative Justice. You can find out more about her work@www.ampersandsrj.org. we'll also link to it in our show notes. And if you want to hear more bonus episodes like this, go to patreon.com ProxyPodcast to become a member. All right, we'll be back in two weeks on Tuesday, August 12th. Thanks for listening, everybody.