Proxy x Heavyweight

Summary

Proxy x Heavyweight: The Story of Anita and Stefano

Podcast: Proxy with Yowei Shaw
Episode: Proxy x Heavyweight (Heavyweight’s “Stefano”)
Date: November 18, 2025
Host: Jonathan Goldstein (Heavyweight), with Proxy introduction by Yowei Shaw
Case Subject: The search for Stefano, the baby Anita comforted and transported from Italy to the US for adoption in 1959

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Episode Overview

This episode is a cross-post from the podcast Heavyweight, featuring host Jonathan Goldstein’s signature approach: helping guests revisit a defining, unresolved moment in their lives. The story centers on Anita, an Italian refugee who, as a young woman, escorted a two-year-old orphan, Stefano, to America for adoption in 1959, bonding deeply with him during the flight. For the rest of her life, Anita wondered what became of Stefano—a mystery her daughter Debbie is determined to solve after Anita’s death.

Main themes:

• Enduring, unrequited love and the bonds of care
• The impossibility and longing of closure
• Adoption, displacement, and immigrant experience
• Hope, disappointment, and the limits of investigative empathy

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Context (00:00–04:12)

• Yowei Shaw (Proxy) sets the stage, praising Heavyweight's focus on “messy, hard to talk about emotional conundrums.”
• Jonathan Goldstein introduces Anita’s story: an Italian emigrant escaping postwar Yugoslavia, eventually escorting Stefano for adoption, and the lifelong impact this one-day relationship had on her.

Notable Quote:

“The stories are funny, heartbreaking, healing, and often make you laugh and cry in the same breath, which is my favorite kind of podcast.”
— Yowei Shaw (00:46)

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2. Anita’s History & Character (04:12–09:36)

• Debbie (Anita’s daughter) shares anecdotes about her mother’s “fierce optimism,” even amidst hardship as a refugee.
• Anita’s defining story: the bond with Stefano during their 18-hour journey from Rome to New York—both venturing alone into a new world.

Timestamps & Quotes:

• [04:12] Debbie: “For her, the glass was beyond half full. It was always full, even if there was a drop of water in there…”
• [07:14] Anita (in old video): “It’s so cute. Look at how beautiful he is, Stefano.”
• [08:53] Anita: “He was like my baby.”
• [09:23] Anita: “I would like to know him and see how he’s doing. ... I was thinking all this year about him all the time. … And I love you, even if I don’t see you too long.”

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3. The Search for Stefano (09:43–15:43)

• After Anita’s death, Debbie and her friend Lindsay intensify their search.
• Lindsay tracks down Stefano’s likely new identity (Stephen), but finds troubling hints of a criminal record and estrangement from family.
• They hesitate, fearing for Anita’s safety if Stefano might be dangerous.

Quotes:

• [10:39] Lindsay: “I have a skill for finding digital footprints of people. … I’m the person that people go to if they want to know something.”
• [12:12] Lindsay: “We just...weren’t sure if maybe this was our safest way to go about this.”

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4. Renewed Grief and Motivation (12:57–14:09)

• Anita’s death coincided with COVID-19 and Debbie’s father’s dementia. Debbie never found closure.
• Lindsay believes finding Stefano is essential for Debbie’s healing.
• Debbie wants Stefano to know “that this woman thought of him for most of his life, loving him from a distance, wondering about him, praying for him.”

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5. Heavyweight Investigation: The Search Intensifies (14:36–19:37)

• Jonathan and producer Kahlilah Holt cross-check public records, discover Stefano’s “criminal record” is just an old DUI.
• A string of dead phone numbers and unanswered messages. Letters are mailed, “three hopeful birds.”

Notable Quote:

• [15:36] “So there’s really no other criminal past except...That’s all I’m seeing.” — Debbie, when learning Stefano’s criminal record is only a dated DUI.

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6. Breakthrough and Reconnecting (18:42–21:12)

• Two years after initial attempts, Stephen (Stefano) finally responds.
• Stephen is surprised, wary of scams, and admits living off-the-grid with no computer or smartphone.
• He agrees to a phone call with Debbie.

Notable Quotes:

• [21:06] Debbie: “You were always on her mind for many, many years and told many people about you.”
• [21:12] Stephen: “Well, God bless your mom. I wish she would have adopted me.”

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7. Stephen’s Story: A Nominal Life (21:29–28:19)

• Stephen describes being told about his adoption at age 8.
• Adoptive family was not abusive but not especially close or loving—“three squares a day,” occasional “lickens” for discipline.
• Stephen struggles with alcoholism, chronic isolation, and estrangement from his brothers.
• He’s never married, lived with a partner (Joanne) for many years until her death from cancer.

Notable Quotes:

• [22:46] Stephen: “Well, I have a serious alcohol problem. ... I was pretty much known as a boozer back in the day.”
• [24:39] Stephen: “Joanne? She died of lung cancer, and I lived with her for, like, nine years.”

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8. Emotional Disconnection & Missed Gifts (26:00–29:03)

• Debbie offers to play Anita’s recorded message for Stephen, but he declines. He’s indifferent, even dismissive.
• For Stephen, the connection is tenuous: “That could be anything. Like, I love this little toddler, you know, I love pizza. It could be anything.”
• He cuts the call short but does request the photograph of himself with Anita as a baby.

Quotes:

• [27:13] Stephen: “That could be anything. Like, I love this little toddler, you know. I love pizza. It could be anything.”
• [28:22] Jonathan: “Do you feel like it’s too late?”
  Stephen: “Yeah, I do.”

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9. Aftermath and Reflection (29:26–31:43)

• Debbie is heartbroken that Stephen didn’t want to hear Anita’s voice: “I think the part that makes me cry a little bit is that he didn’t want to hear my mom.”
• Jonathan reflects on the nature of longing and gift-giving: “You can never assume a gift, you know?”
• Debbie wonders if Anita might have been better not discovering the reality of Stephen’s life.
• Jonathan draws a poignant observation: love often fails to land, but the act of trying is a form of hope.

Notable Quotes:

• [30:47] Debbie: “The details he shared contained a lot of sorrow.”
• [31:06] Debbie: “She would have told him she loved him. She probably would have invited him over, really. She would have figured out a way to feed him. My mom loved deeply.”
• [31:43] Jonathan: “We live our lives in the desperate hope that if we find the right words, tell the story the right way, our love will be understood.”

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10. Final Notes & Poetic Closure (33:53–End)

• The episode ends with a poetic narration reflecting on attempts, connection, and the spaces between us.
• The lasting hope: perhaps Stephen will one day feel Anita’s care, through the photograph he requested.

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Memorable Moments & Quotes (with Timestamps)

• [09:23] Anita: “I would like to know him and see how he’s doing... I love you, even if I don’t see you too long.”
• [21:12] Stephen: “God bless your mom. I wish she would have adopted me.”
• [22:46] Stephen: “I have a serious alcohol problem. ... I was pretty much known as a boozer back in the day.”
• [27:13] Stephen: “That could be anything. Like, I love this little toddler, you know, I love pizza. It could be anything.”
• [28:22] Jonathan: "Do you feel like it’s too late?" Stephen: "Yeah, I do."
• [31:06] Debbie: “[Anita] probably would have invited him over, really. She would have figured out a way to feed him.”
• [31:43] Jonathan: “We live our lives in the desperate hope that if we find the right words, tell the story the right way, our love will be understood.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–04:12 — Introduction and framing from Proxy and Heavyweight
• 04:12–09:36 — Anita’s history, optimism, and the origin of the Stefano mystery
• 09:43–12:24 — The hunt for Stefano: early attempts and dead-ends
• 14:36–15:43 — Digging up records, the criminal flag, and hesitation
• 18:42–19:16 — Contact! Stephen responds after years of silence
• 20:17–29:03 — The call with Stephen: unraveling the reality, barriers, and his indifferent response
• 29:26–31:43 — Debbie and Jonathan process the outcome and contemplate meaning
• 33:53–End — Poetic and musical coda

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Tone & Style

The episode is tinged with the characteristic bittersweetness of Heavyweight: empathetic, wry, quietly funny, and profoundly humane. There are moments of both raw emotion and ironic detachment. The investigation is not tidy; real life remains unresolved, messy, and sometimes disappointing—but always deeply felt.

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Conclusion

The search for Stefano is emblematic of our yearnings—for closure, for love to be felt across years and identities. Sometimes, as Jonathan observes, we need to accept that to love is to try, and not every gift will land. Yet, the act of trying, of reaching out, is still worthwhile—for Debbie, for Anita, and perhaps someday, even for Stephen.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

All right, everyone. Today was going to be our last episode. The year before Proxy takes a break to go work on our next batch of stories. But we need more time. You'll hear that episode on Tuesday, December 2nd. Promise it's worth the wait. In the meantime, you're in for a treat on Proxy. You know that we're all about investigating messy, hard to talk about emotional conundrums. The podcast I'm going to share today does that too. It's called Heavyweight. Each episode, the host, Jonathan Goldstein, helps a guest go back to a moment in their life. They wish they could change, understand, or make peace with a defining regret, lost connection or unsolved mystery. Maybe it's a friendship that ended without closure or a mistake that never received an apology. The stories are funny, heartbreaking, healing, and often make you laugh and cry in the same breath, which is my favorite kind of podcast. And I love how the show does the heavy lift reporting to find the exact person the guest needs answers from. It's why every episode is filled with electricity and suspense. You get to witness real people connecting and discovering things together in conversation. And the results aren't always pretty, because that's life. This episode is about a woman named Anita. When Anita emigrated From Italy in 1959, she was tasked with babysitting a two year old boy being brought to the US for adoption. During the flight, Anita fell in love with the child, and for the rest of her life, she wondered what became of him. Here's the episode. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did. You can find Heavyweight wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes on Thursdays. Thanks for listening.

[Karen]

Hey, Johnny.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Karen.

[Karen]

Just in the grocery store.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I'm sorry to be intruding like this. You know, just calling up out of.

[Karen]

Oh, hi.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, hi.

[Karen]

Sorry, my mom called on the other line.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So then you just drop whoever you're talking to?

[Karen]

That's the kind of daughter I am.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Not very professional, but okay.

[Karen]

Oh, is this a business call?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yes, it actually is. Okay, well, because, you know, you're a dear friend of Jackie, so I thought maybe, you know, I would turn to you with my concern. I've been trying to call Jackie and she doesn't seem to be accepting my phone calls.

[Karen]

Yeah, no, I could confirm that she's. Okay.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay. Oh, that's good. Whew. Thank God.

[Karen]

Yeah, I could confirm that. And I can confirm that she's annoyed by your persistence. That I could confirm.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay.

[Karen]

And it's. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you. Maybe she Just feels that you're using her.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Well, I am.

[Karen]

Well, maybe she doesn't like that.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah, because she wants to be the user. Right?

[Karen]

That's an excellent point you got there.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay, Jackie, if you're out there listening, which, let's face it, you're probably not, if I am using you, it's on behalf of America and Canada, of course. From Pushkin Industries, I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and this is is heavyweight. Today's episode. Stephano, Right after the break. It's impossible to talk to Debbie without hearing stories about her mom, Anita. Anita was Italian and. And in every story, it's her atemismo feroce, or fierce optimism that takes center stage.

[Debbie]

Truly, for her, the glass was beyond half full. It was always full, even if there was a drop of water in there. Jonathan. It was just always full.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

As an example, Debbie tells the story of how Anita comforted some cousins who were concerned their child was crying too much.

[Debbie]

And my mom said, no, you don't have to worry. She, she's like me. I was like that for years. I was always crying very easily. My mom was around 78 years old at the time. And they said, did you grow out of it? And my mom goes, yeah. And they said, when? And she said, about two years ago. So, you know, they had something to hope for.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Anita died in 2020, and her death was hard on Debbie. She misses her mom a lot and thinks about her a lot. And perhaps because of this, she finds herself returning to the one Anita story that has yet to find its happy ending. And that is the story of the airplane and the baby. Anita grew up in a part of Italy called Istria, and after World War II, the region was ceded to Yugoslavia. Suddenly, her family was under oppressive socialist rule. So Anita and her brother hatched an escape plan. They double layered their clothing, borrowed a motorboat, and sailed into the Adriatic Sea. Anita could easily have drowned.

[Debbie]

But my mom said, you know, you're young and you don't think about that kind of stuff. You just think about freedom.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Anita and her brother made it to Italy, where the police took them to a refugee camp. In the coming years, Anita would live in several such camps.

[Debbie]

When I would talk to her other friends about it, her friends would say, oh, it was hard. You know, it was. The food wasn't good most of the time and we didn't have money. But you would never have known that talking to her. She was just eternally optimistic. She said it was wonderful. They opened the doors and I saw so many people that I knew there. We'd play cards and we'd drink and, you know, the girls would do each other's hair and just had fun.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In 1959, Anita got her chance to leave the camps. A visa to the United States. And so all alone, Anita set out to America.

[Debbie]

So she was getting ready to get on the flight from Rome to New York and there was an adoption agency that were taking children from orphanages from Italy to the United States. And they asked my mom if she would babysit this little boy, this little two year old boy, and she said of course.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Did she learn his name?

[Debbie]

Stefano.

[Lindsay]

It's Anita.

[Debbie]

And you have.

[Anita]

I got picture of a little baby, Stefano.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This is Anita in a video Debbie filmed a year before her mom's death. In the video, Anita is clutching a photograph taken during the flight.

[Anita]

It's so cute. Look at how beautiful he is, Stefano.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The photograph is oddly composed, almost like it was taken by accident. When the camera was set down, Anita and Stefano's faces are both partially cut off. But you can tell that Anita is smiling big with the two year old Stefano peaceful in her arms.

[Debbie]

How old were you there? 24.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Look at how beautiful.

[Anita]

60 years ago, 1959.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It was a long flight to New York and they had to stop three times to refuel. So for 18 hours, Anita held Stefano close.

[Debbie]

I think she just fell in love with him. She just fell in love with that little baby. She said he was the best baby you could ever see.

[Anita]

How good baby he was. He was the best baby. I was very happy. I was happy. A little baby was happy.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It was Anita's first time on an airplane and Stefano's too. They were both leaving behind everyone they knew and setting out alone for a new life in America. Clutching this baby over the ocean, the two of them smiling at each other. Anita and Stefano bonded. They were both off to what she hoped was a better life.

[Debbie]

They get to New York, she was holding the baby and the agency came up to her and then just took him right out of her arms. She said they didn't say anything to her.

[Anita]

They just take him away from me. And he started crying because he don't know nobody.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

There was no chance to even say goodbye.

[Anita]

And I was crying with him. I would cry now too.

[Debbie]

Yeah, of course, that's sad.

[Anita]

He was like my baby.

[Debbie]

She would cry. She would cry when she talk about it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Even after raising two kids of her own, Anita never stopped talking about the child who was hers for a day. All through her life, even into her last years, everyone heard about Stefano. Anita continued to Hope always needed to believe that Stefano's life was a good one.

[Debbie]

She would say, I wonder where he is. Was he in a good home? What was his life like?

[Anita]

I would like to know him and see how he's doing. I'm sorry, baby. You are far away. I don't know. Where are you? I was thinking all this year about him all the time.

[Debbie]

Yeah.

[Anita]

And I love you, even if I don't see you too long.

[Debbie]

That's a nice story, and I don't.

[Anita]

Know if you understand it.

[Debbie]

I think so.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Back when Anita was still alive, there were several attempts at finding Stephano. Anita sought out help from various friends and family, but no one was able to get anywhere. They even looked into a TV show that reunited adoptees with their birth parents. But Anita wasn't Stefano's birth parent. But then one day, Debbie brought up the subject of Stefano with her close friend Lindsay.

[Debbie]

Lindsay starts plugging stuff into the computer, and she said, oh, I found him.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hang on. But you didn't. Did you even have his last name?

[Debbie]

No.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And who's this Lindsay? Does she work for the State Department or something? You would think as someone who makes his living tracking people down. Like a nice version of Dog the Bounty Hunter. A Dog the Bounty Hunter who, rather than dragging people off to jail, drags them off to heal. I'm professionally piqued by this, Lindsey.

[Lindsay]

I have a skill for finding digital footprints of people.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This is Lindsay.

[Lindsay]

I'm the person that people go to if they want to know something.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The only information she knew about Stefano was his age and the date of the flight. But with that, she found Stefano's immigration record, which had the name of the man on it who was set to adopt him. From there, Lindsay found the adoptive father's obituary.

[Lindsay]

Under the list of surviving children, there was the name Stephen. And, you know, we put that together.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

As Stephano, as Stefano. In America, Stefano became Stephen. Although Lindsay now had Stefano's full name, she had no way of getting in touch with him. She combed social media, but he was nowhere to be found. She did find his two brothers, though. So she messaged one.

[Lindsay]

He said that it was a very nice story, but he doesn't speak to Steven anymore.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Yeah, and when Lindsay tried the other.

[Lindsay]

Brother, it was basically the same thing, that they don't speak either.

[Debbie]

And then Lindsay dug a little deeper, and it looked like he might have a criminal record.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Debbie and Lindsay couldn't see what Stephen's criminal record was. It just came up as a flag on one of those people finding websites. But the reality of what they were doing suddenly sank in. They were looking for a potentially dangerous stranger to introduce to the elderly Anita. And it gave them pause.

[Lindsay]

That paired with I'm not speaking to his brothers. We just. We weren't sure if maybe this was our safest way to go about this. And we wanted to take some time to kind of figure out a game plan.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But time passed and no game plan emerged. And a year later, Anita died. Never having gotten to reunite with Stefano. After the loss of a parent, there's often an attempt to honor a final wish. Donating to a beloved cause or scattering ashes in a favorite place. But Debbie feels a need to fulfill a different kind of wish on her mother's behalf. She wants to know that Stefano is okay.

[Lindsay]

Anita's death was very, very, very difficult. And I think it's healing for Debbie if we find him. And I think that she needs this more than being thinks she does.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Lindsay says Debbie never got the chance to fully grieve Anita. After she died, Covid hit. Then her father developed dementia and Debbie became his full time caretaker. Then her father died.

[Lindsay]

Just always onto this next draining thing, you know, and since it is honoring this wish of her mom, it's helping her heal. And I can just see that when we talk about the story, she's so hopeful and she's so determined. And this is something that I haven't seen with Debbie in a very long time.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And for Debbie, she hopes this story might mean something to Stefano too.

[Debbie]

Maybe he needs to know that this woman thought of him for most of his life. Loving him from a distance, wondering about him, praying for him. I mean, what a thing to know.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

After the break.

[Debbie]

Let's find him. Let's find that guy, that little Stefano.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So. So here we are.

[Debbie]

Here we are.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

My producer, Kalila Holt and I gather in the studio. Our mission is twofold. We want to find a way to contact Steven. But before we do, we want to figure out what Stephen's mysterious criminal record actually is. Khalilah starts tip tapping away on her computer. Well, I settle in and offer the kind of input that only an investigative journalist with a decades long track record can. I've gone through different phases in my life where a V neck was more appealing than a crew neck. It kind of goes, it's always darkest before the dawn. Is that true? I was like, to Augie, I was like, smell how good that is. And he was like, that smells disgusting. I was like, I can think of other times when it's darker. It's probably darker. At night, my gal don't do much talking. Dances even when she's walking.

[Stephen/Stefano]

Run.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And two. Oh, look at that little squirrel.

[Debbie]

Oh, here's criminal traffic.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And then, finally, we find the record we've been looking for.

[Debbie]

DUI.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Ah, okay.

[Anita]

In 1989.

[Debbie]

That was a long time ago.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So there's really no other criminal past except to.

[Debbie]

That's all I'm seeing.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Boy, that's sad. That that was enough to kind of make them drop the whole thing.

[Debbie]

Yeah.

[Karen]

Please leave your message for five.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Kahlila digs up some possible phone numbers for Steven online. And in the weeks to come, I leave numerous voicemails. Hi there. I'm looking for a Steven. I call so many numbers, I hear automated messages entirely new to me.

[Debbie]

The number is in service.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Is in service.

[Debbie]

Never try your call again.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

None of these phone numbers lead me to Stephen. They just lead me to different robotic voices.

[Stephen/Stefano]

You're cocking up.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

All right, that's it.

[Debbie]

Yeah, that's it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

With the telephone having crapped on our heads, we decide that what we need is an even older form of communication. The U.S. postal Service. Kalila uncovers three possible mailing addresses for Steven. So we write three letters and drop them in the mailbox, letting them fly off into the world like three hopeful birds. And then time, as is its wont, passes. Two years go by. Two years. It's unlikely the average podcast listener's brain raised on podcasts about celebs, elk steak, and the science of why people go to the bathroom can easily conceptualize the passage of so much time. If this was a video podcast, I'd stare into the camera with my patented deadpan affect as my beard and fingernails grew in time lapse. But since it isn't a video podcast, I present to you an audiophonic aid. That was only 10 seconds. Now imagine two years. Two years of refreshing my inbox and calling my answering service to no avail. And then Debbie and I check back in. Where are you right now? It appears that you have a ladder behind you.

[Debbie]

Yes, I'm at home.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

And where does this ladder lead to?

[Debbie]

Oh, nowhere.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's just a ladder to nowhere.

[Debbie]

We're going nowhere with this ladder.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I hope we're going somewhere with this story. I hope we're not on a ladder tonight. Nowhere. It seems Debbie hasn't given up on Stephano. She tells me Lindsay found some of the same phone numbers we did. So Debbie, too, tried calling and leaving messages. No one ever called back, though. Still, Debbie wants to keep trying. And so more letters are sent, more voicemails left and two more months go by. I've completely given up hope. And then one afternoon, I finally hear from Stephen.

[Debbie]

You did?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I did.

[Debbie]

You did.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I did.

[Stephen/Stefano]

Wow.

[Debbie]

Yeah, I was shocked.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I wasn't holding out a lot of hope. Me either. I tell Debbie about the phone call, how Stephen told me he dismissed my letters as a scam. I asked if he'd be open to a conversation with Debbie, but he said he doesn't have transportation. And when I said we could do a video call, he said he hasn't a cell phone nor a computer and he, quote, doesn't follow the Internet. But eventually he said he'd be okay with a telephone call. I would love that.

[Debbie]

I think it's a gift that he.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Doesn'T realize, you know, so he is available. One o', clock, Green Mountain time. So that would be like. Oh, sorry, Mountain time. Mountain time, not Green Mountain time. After the break, Stephano, at long last, is Green Mountain time a thing?

[Debbie]

Sounds like a coffee thing.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

That. That would be a 3 o' clock. Nest Cafe. So 1 o', clock, green Mountain. The next day at 1:00pm, Green Mountain Time, Debbie and I convene. Okay. I'll give him a call. I'll phone him and I'll introduce you guys.

[Debbie]

Okay.

[Stephen/Stefano]

Okay. Hello?

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hello, Stephen?

[Stephen/Stefano]

Yes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Hi, it's Jonathan phoning. I'm here with Debbie.

[Stephen/Stefano]

Oh, you are?

[Debbie]

Hi, Steven. How are you?

[Stephen/Stefano]

I'm fine. How are you?

[Debbie]

I'm good. I'm really good. And I'm really excited to hear your voice and to know that you're here right now. So, Stephen, my mom, her name was Anita, and she.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Debbie lays it all out for Steven. The plane ride, the love Anita felt for him, and how that love endured for Anita's entire life.

[Debbie]

You were always on her mind for many, many years and told many people about you.

[Stephen/Stefano]

Well, God bless your mom. I wish she would have adopted me.

[Debbie]

I think she would have liked that.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Anita always wanted to know whether after being taken from her arms, Stefano's life had been a good one. So we start at the beginning with Stephen's adoption.

[Stephen/Stefano]

My foster parents told me roughly at the age of eight.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You call them your foster parents. Did they adopt you?

[Stephen/Stefano]

Yes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Were they good people?

[Stephen/Stefano]

I mean, there was three squares a day. I mean, there was no abuse or anything like that. I don't mind. Lickens is what my dad called it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Did you say lickens?

[Stephen/Stefano]

Yeah, about. It wasn't abuse. It was just for discipline purposes.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Was that. Was that rough?

[Stephen/Stefano]

Well, for a little kid it is.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

But did you feel loved.

[Stephen/Stefano]

Yes, I did. Oh, I remember from childhood. Other than friends, and they turned out to be drug addicts, I turned out nominal.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What do you mean when you say nominal?

[Stephen/Stefano]

Well, I have a serious alcohol problem. Okay, I know I sound like I've been drinking, but I haven't. I don't anything here. I was pretty much known as a.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Boozer back in the day. Stephen says the drinking got bad, which led to the dui.

[Stephen/Stefano]

You don't think when you drink to get behind the wheel of a vehicle, drunk is preposterous.

[Debbie]

Did your father. Did your adoptive father do something similar?

[Stephen/Stefano]

He drank, but not in excess. I never saw him on a drunken stupor. Well, nobody's ever seen me. I won't let them.

[Debbie]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

So you drink alone?

[Stephen/Stefano]

Yes. That song by that one guy, George Thurgood, I Drink alone reminds me of me.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

As the conversation goes on, Debbie grows increasingly quiet, so I do my best to draw Stephen out. Did you. Did you get married?

[Stephen/Stefano]

No, I never been married. I've had relationships, but they come and go.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Would you say that you. That you've been in love?

[Stephen/Stefano]

I've been infatuated pretty bad. And I lived with a lady for many years, but that was back in the 80s.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

What can you say about her?

[Stephen/Stefano]

Joanne? She died of lung cancer, and I lived with her for, like, nine years.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Oh, boy. Did she. Did she pass away while you were living together?

[Debbie]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

That must have been hard.

[Stephen/Stefano]

Yeah, it was, but I moved on.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Stephen tells us that he was in the Navy for four years, that he missed Vietnam by just a month. Most of his professional life was spent working in factories. I ask him about his brothers, why they no longer speak, but he says nothing in particular happened. They just drifted. Overall, he says, his life has been nominal and fortunate. When I ask how so, he cites the fact that he's never been homeless, although there was a brief period in 2014 when he ended up in a veteran shelter. It was fine, he says, except for the fact that he couldn't control the heat or the air conditioning. And shortly after that, he moved into a room in his friend Carl's house, which is where he is now.

[Debbie]

I took a video of her telling the story. I don't know if you're interested in hearing it.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Debbie wants Steven to hear what he meant to Anita in Anita's own words. In response, Steven says that he doesn't have access to a car right now, plus he's sick in bed. I assume he thinks we're asking him to go somewhere, so I try again to explain. We could Try to play a little bit of the video over the phone so that you can hear Anita's voice.

[Stephen/Stefano]

Um, not right now. I'm good.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Uh, it's no misunderstanding. Stephen doesn't want to hear Anita. Still, Debbie tries to explain her mom's feelings for the baby she held during that flight to America.

[Debbie]

I think in some ways she felt like sympathico with you, you know, like sympathetic with you, that you were both leaving your homeland.

[Stephen/Stefano]

Hmm.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

I mean, is it strange to think that as a baby you were able to have such a strong effect on somebody?

[Stephen/Stefano]

Well, I don't think of it as that, but.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Well, how do you think of it?

[Stephen/Stefano]

That could be anything. Like, I love this little toddler, you know, I love pizza. It could be anything.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

The conversation feels like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object. If it's a battle between optimism and pessimism, it feels like pessimism is winning.

[Stephen/Stefano]

It was surprising to get the letter and I thought, please, people doing. Yeah.

[Debbie]

I just felt like it was a gift.

[Stephen/Stefano]

Okay. Thank you.

[Debbie]

Yeah.

[Stephen/Stefano]

I'm a little old now to be concerned.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Do you feel like it's too late?

[Stephen/Stefano]

Yeah, I do.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

That baby Stephano doesn't exist anymore. When he was taken out of Anita's arms, he became Steven. And Stephen is a 68 year old man dealing with ill health. The feelings of a stranger who encountered him for one day as a toddler seem largely irrelevant. Debbie wanted to give Stefano a gift, but Steven doesn't want that gift.

[Stephen/Stefano]

I'm going to have to discharge now, so I'm going to leave you folks me.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Before he goes though, Stephen asks if we could mail him a copy of the photograph of Anita and him on the plane.

[Stephen/Stefano]

Mail that to me. Yeah, please. Okay. Thank you.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Okay.

[Debbie]

Thank you. It was so nice talking to you. I really appreciate you taking the time. I wish you the best. I wish you well.

[Stephen/Stefano]

Thank you.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

After we hang up, Debbie and I sit in silence for a moment. Yeah.

[Debbie]

Yeah.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

It's hard to know what to make of any of it. On the one hand, Steven's reaction is reasonable. It is strange to be called up by the daughter of a woman you spent one day with when you were a 2 year old. In some ways, the story of Anita and Stefano was an easier one to tell when it was incomplete. A woman immigrates with a baby and thinks about him for the rest of her life. And then what? The baby becomes a man and doesn't care? The man who was once the baby faces hardship. Nice anecdotes become Harder to sum up when you involve the lives of real people.

[Debbie]

He took it differently than I thought. Definitely took it differently than I thought. It just. I think the part that makes me cry a little bit is that he didn't want to hear my mom. Yeah, but you can't make people, you know, see things the way you see them.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

You can never assume a gift, you know? Debbie is disappointed, though. Not just because of what she wanted and didn't get, but because of what she did get. While our picture of Steven's life is fragmented, the details he shared contained a lot of sorrow.

[Debbie]

And I don't know how my mom. I think maybe how would it have been for her if she would have actually met him or talked to him, you know, maybe it's better that I did.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

How do you think she would have dealt with it? Like, what do you think she would have said to him?

[Debbie]

Oh, she would have told him she loved him. She probably would have invited him over, really. She would have figured out a way to feed him. My mom loved deeply. Yeah, she really loved people deeply. The love that was more than pizza, he can't. I don't think he could even comprehend it. I think most people couldn't comprehend that.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

In that video of Anita, the one that Steven didn't want to hear, there's a moment where Anita wonders if she's being understood.

[Debbie]

That's a nice story.

[Anita]

And I don't know if you understand it.

[Debbie]

I think so.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

When I first saw it, I assumed she was referring to her accent, her less than perfect English. But now I wonder if there was something more behind it. We live our lives in the desperate hope that if we find the right words, tell the story the right way, our love will be understood. We will be understood, we hope, even as we misconstrue and grow offended and talk past each other, we hope love, some iota of it will get through, even though time and time again we're disappointed. The next time I speak with Debbie, she tells me how the night after her call with Steven, she woke up at 3am From a bad dream. She got out of bed and went downstairs. It was pouring outside. And Debbie thought about Stephano, the boy her mother held on the airplane back in 1959. And she thought about the man she spoke to on the phone 65 years later. And she thought about her mom. And she grieved, crying for about an hour. Maybe this will plant a seed for Steven, Debbie tells me. After all, he did seem to really want that photograph. Maybe someday he'll look back at the thing she was trying to tell him, and he'll finally feel that love from her mother. It seems like an unlikely hope, but in this way, Debbie is like her mom.

[Stephen/Stefano]

Sam.

[Narrator/Poet]

Now that the furniture is returning to its Goodwill home, now that the last month's rent is scheming with the damaged deposit, take this moment to decide.

[Stephen/Stefano]

If.

[Narrator/Poet]

We meant it, if we tried.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

Or.

[Narrator/Poet]

Felt around for far too much. From things that accidentally touched.

[Jonathan Goldstein]

This episode of Heavyweight was produced by Kahlilah Holt and me, Jonathan Goldstein, along with Phoebe Flanagan. Our supervising producer is Stevie Lane. Editorial guidance from Emily Condon. Special thanks to Ben Nadif Haffrey, Lucy Sullivan and Trina Menino. Emma Munger mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellowes, John K. Sampson and Bobby Lord. Additional scoring by Blue Dot Sessions, Saigon would be Soul and Katie Mullins. Our theme song is by the Weaker Thans, courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on Instagram @H heavyweightpodcast or email us @H heavyweightushkin FM. Tune in next week for a special Pushkin anthology show about mistakes with the hosts of Risky Business, Cautionary Tales and Heavyweight. Hey, that's me.

[Stephen/Stefano]

Sa.