C (1:57)

I would say primarily, men are allowed to say nothing. It's like, my main finding so far. Like, I was at a children's birthday party, and, you know, it's chaos and all these people, all this stuff going on, right? And then on the edge, there's just a few dudes, they don't talk to each other, and you can just kind of like, stand next to them. You don't have to say anything. But let's say when I was a high femme woman, right? Like, let's say when I was like, lipstick, heels, dresses, I couldn't appear in public without people commenting on me. Women wanted to make small talk with me. Men wanted to hit on me, and now no one talks to me.

B (2:36)

As an introvert, this sounds very appealing to me, honestly.

C (2:41)

I know, right? Male privilege.

B (2:46)

I love hearing what Sandy's learning about Men. But the reason I wanted to talk to Sandy is because of this strangely uplifting thing that happened to him recently. So since Trump got reelected, like a lot of trans people, Sandy has been completely consumed by the constant daily attack on the rights of trans people in this country.

C (3:08)

I subscribe to and follow lots of media that's made by queer and trans people. That's great. And it helps me get coverage of what's actually happening because otherwise I wouldn't even hear the latest in terms of what have they done to my rights in the night this time, right? Like there's that just hum around me all the time of like this is so very, very, very, very, very, very, very bad.

B (3:30)

To name just a few of the very, very bad things. Withdrawing federal funding from hospitals that provide gender affirming care to people under 19. Invalidating the ex gender marker on passports. Making it hard for trans people to travel abroad. Reinstituting the trans military. Banning trans women and girls from women's sports. Warning teachers they can be investigated for simply using a trans student's chosen name. Just this year, over 850 anti trans bills have already been filed, the most in United States history.

C (4:02)

And then you go to the town, you go to the post office. Birds are singing, people are living their lives. I think that juxtaposition for me can feel really tough.

B (4:16)

The night of the election, Sandy bawled. And the next day he got to work, pushing through paperwork to get his Social Security card and birth certificate changed with the right name and gender. Rushing a hysterectomy in case hospitals stopped performing surgeries for trans people. Writing articles to fight what he sees as an information war about the humanity of trans people, all the while clocking a strange silence from CIS people.

C (4:45)

I have a lot of trans people saying stuff to me all the time. Nobody checked on me. After the election, a mother of a trans child expressing that she's been waiting to hear support from any of her friends after the UK Supreme Court ruling. And so is it easy for me to go? No one cares? Yes, that's what it feels like. No one cares.

B (5:13)

As a CIS person who cares, I have to say I've also been clocking a strange public silence around trans rights. Okay, so this is purely vibes and anecdotal, but like, take what happened back in 2016 with the North Carolina bathroom bill. There were protests, boycotts, Even corporations like PayPal, Apple and Deutsche bank got on the bandwagon. Compare that with what happened this June when the Supreme Court upheld bans against gender affirming care for minors. I could be wrong, but where were the mass protests? Why didn't I say anything with my small platform?

C (5:56)

I was complaining about the silence on Blue sky, and I had some people who replied to me, explaining to me why people were quiet.

B (6:05)

What do they say?

C (6:06)

They have, you know, stuff like, people are overwhelmed, they don't know what to say or whatever. And I was a little like, if you have the time to reply to me, couldn't you pick up the phone and call a trans friend of yours? I don't have the answer here. Like, I'm not saying people shouldn't go on vacation and they shouldn't get married and they shouldn't adopt a pet. I'm like, that's great. I'm very happy for you, friend, that you did that. But part of me is like, my rights are under such attack all the time. I can barely, like, eat food. Like, I can barely sleep. How am I supposed to respond if someone goes on vacation? And am I supposed to say, good for you? It must be nice to have a passport that you feel safe going across the border with. I don't want to be like, that bitter person.

B (6:51)

Because being not bitter is Sandy's whole thing. It's why he has a militant meditation and gratitude practice. It's why I even heard about his writing. Sandy writes this popular newsletter called what's Helping Today? And I was sent a link to one of his posts titled, To CIS people who feel Despair. And I was like, that's me. I'd never read anything like it. A trans person talking to me this way who wasn't already my friend. Yes, there were concrete tips on what to do, but it was the tone that got me. Gentle, welcoming, cozy, yet firm. It made me want to keep listening. And Sandy told me that tone is 100% deliberate.

C (7:38)

I think there's part of me that just feels the instinct to be like, hello, whole crowd. I need to get the whole crowd right now. Not just my freaks like me. Because that's the thing. We never win on the numbers, trans people. We are too tiny. If you all want to take us out, you'll take us out.

B (7:55)

Do you think this is more effective as a way to get CIS people to do something?

C (8:00)

Oh, I think absolutely. If I had written a post that was like, listen up, you bums, get to work. What? I don't know. Like, that's not my vibe. And I also think in general, I really try to think about where people are coming from. And for the most part, people don't have time for this and they're not interested and it sounds extra and it sounds hard or something. So the more I can sort of put it out like a plate of cheese and ooh, the better we will do.

B (8:34)

The problem is these days, Sandy has been finding it harder to put out the plate of cheese. Ever since the election, you could tell he's been growing more bitter. How could he not?

C (8:48)

Hey, my whole community is like facing a genocide and I haven't heard from anybody. And that's kind of a bummer. We're all watching the same news, right?

B (9:01)

What Sandy did with that stew of negative feelings I find really compelling and instructive because he didn't just submit to the silence and his assumptions about what it meant. Sandy reached into the void and invited CIS people to talk. And what he heard surprised him. So on this one Friday in April, Sandy reads an article that headline about 2025 having the most anti trans bills in history. And he notices nobody on his timeline is talking about it. And a question occurs to him for all the people saying nothing, a counterintuitively generous question. He types it out on bluesky. CIS folks, what made you start caring about trans rights? And Sandy's surprised to see that right away, CIS folks are responding.

C (10:07)

It's like the portal I was looking for. I want to have a conversation to CIS people like, excuse me, you are killing us. Can you stop? And I'm like, oh my God, I wasn't expecting you to, like, answer, but as long as you're here, let's get into it.

B (10:26)

As Sandy starts reading through, he's amazed to see how many different identities, faiths and paths led people to the same place. They're the people who talk about being bullied and that's why they support trans rights, because they hate bullies. They're the people who say, well, of course I'm for trans rights, I believe in science. And then the people who say, well, of course I'm for trans rights, I believe in God. Moms play a huge role. Sometimes it's I'm pro trans because my mom raised me right. And sometimes it's my mom was a terf and radicalized me. Then there are the messages that hit Sandy on such an emotional level that sometimes he has to step away from the computer.

C (11:13)

The one that popped up here, I'm going to read it. Just saw to trans kids in the ed after self harm when everyone, parents included, cast them out of worse. I decided if no one was going to give a shit about these children, I sure as shit was right. Heavy. But it's real, right? It's real.

B (11:36)

Of course, a bunch of assholes just say mean shit. Then there are the nice parents who also bother Sandy.

C (11:44)

It pisses me off on some level when some parent goes, my child came out to me and I was so accepting. And I'm a great ally because I did not get that. I'm never gonna get that. So I feel happy that that parent exists and is sharing that story and is acting kind to that kid. And I feel jealousy.

B (12:07)

Hearing Sandy's reactions. I was often surprised by what got under his skin and what moved him. For instance, you might think hearing about people being shitty to trans people would not be fun. But Sandy says he he's enjoyed hearing from people who admit doing wrong. One of these posts that caught my attention was from a guy named Matthew, a pharmaceuticals marketer in Manhattan. He told me that even though he'd grown up in a progressive household around gay people, gay aunts, gay uncles, his mom's friends, he had no contact with trans people and so just defaulted to a baseline transphobia.

E (12:47)

So at this tiny college in rural southwestern Ohio, one of our fellow students transitioned one of the kids in the computer science program. And I made some jocular, jerky transphobic remarks to a friend about it.

B (13:05)

Do you feel comfortable sharing what you said?

E (13:08)

I don't remember at all, but it was something stupid and jokey, the kind of crap that you read from the right online all the time now. But, you know, I was expressing my discomfort with something new and unfamiliar. Our friend had changed identities, and I'm sure it kind of freaked me out. We had to call her by a new name. She was no longer a boy. And I think that just squeaked me out a little bit. And then I think also I was probably trying to male bond with my friend. Honestly, that's what a lot of this crap is, right? It's guys sort of reinforcing social bonds, assuring themselves and each other that they are not like that.

B (13:57)

Right? No homo.

E (13:59)

Yeah, no homo. That kind of thing. And I should tell you about the friend. This guy was and is more testosterone than a bull shark, kind of scrappy street fighting guy. In any other context, I would expect him to be the most transphobic person on the planet. And he said, you're wrong and you need to check yourself. She's whoever she says she is, and we're going to respect that.

B (14:30)

How did you react?

E (14:32)

It was a needle scratch. It was a. Oh, hang on. This doesn't align with any of my other values. It's dehumanizing this friend, this acquaintance of mine. And that's pretty up. That specific incident is. Is one that I think about a lot. Because someone showed me grace and corrected me in a way that both set me straight and gave me room to process it and accept it. And I'm eternally grateful that he did.

B (15:08)

This is probably a weird question, but do you think of yourself as a good CIS ally?

E (15:16)

Not particularly. Am I out in the streets all the time protesting for trans rights? No. Am I once or twice a year? Sure. Could I do more? Yeah. Have I reached out to all the trans people in my life in the last couple years as things have gotten really ugly? No. And partly because I'm just in a defensive crouch myself, freaking out about all of this. So, no, I don't think I'm. I don't think I'm a particularly great ally. But I'm not the worst.

B (16:03)

After the break, what Sandy Hears in the Silence and How to Help People Break It.

F (16:19)

Are you obsessed with cults then?

B (16:21)

Oh, goody.

F (16:22)

Do I have a podcast recommendation for you. It's called Sounds like a Cult and it's a show about the modern day cults we all follow. I'm Amanda Montel. Sounds Like a Cults host, and every week I choose a different fanatical fringe group from the cultural zeitgeist and analyze it with the help of expert guests, listener call ins and fascinating stories to figure out if the Group of the Week is a Live youe Life, A Watcher Back, or a Get the Fuck out level cult. The show is available on all major podcast platforms and new episodes come out every Tuesday. For more, find the show on Instagram. Sounds like a cult pod.

B (16:59)

The Sunday after he posted the question, Sandy was riding high. He couldn't stop looking at the replies, feeling, for once, hopeful. That afternoon, a group of trans friends came over to his house. They were sitting on the porch eating lemon bars and he told them about the weird thing happening.

C (17:19)

They were just like, whoa. And one of them like went home and texted me. Like, I just looked through the replies on that post for 30 minutes. Like, this is amazing. I had already started to get lots of other trans people sharing it and saying CIS followers apply to this. This is like actually uplifting me. Because those of us who are trans and in media, I mean, there's not a lot of us, and we're all really fucking bummed out, like all the time. Like all the time. Because it's a bummer. It's a bummer. It's non stop bummer and so that thread going viral was a moment of surprise for me in the sense that I do often feel alone. I do often feel like no one cares. And then thousands and thousands of people kind of replying with this sense of like, here's why I care. Here's why I care. Here's why I care. That basic idea, having that entered into my heart has helped because it can be so tempting to, like, luxuriate in feeling loathed almost.

B (18:22)

What do you mean, luxuriate in feeling loathed?

C (18:25)

Like, to steep in self pity is tempting, right? Because you feel like everyone is after you and you open the news and it's 850 bills, right? But, like, the idea that actually a lot of the people out there, they don't hate you as much as the news acts like or the government acts like, or the silence that you experience elsewhere might lead you to think that itself has been just, like, reassuring. It says to me that I have a shot.

B (19:17)

So does the silence matter if there are actually a lot of CIS people who care about trans rights? Like, according to a national Survey last year, 75% of Americans support policies that protect LGBTQ people from discrimination. To Sandy, even though the silence isn't as loud and as big as he thought, it's still important to address. He says there's a difference between caring and abstract. Silently and caring proactively and loudly. Going to protests, calling your senators, giving money to trans journalists and organizations, checking in on your trans friends.

C (20:01)

I do think that apathy is one of my biggest enemies. Like, yes, there's some folks who really, truly hate me, and some of them happen to be, like, in charge of government. That's an issue. But, like, my question is, how do I get you off your ass? Like, like, not you, but, like, all of them.

B (20:22)

Yes. No. Yes. Yes.

C (20:24)

What does it take to get people into the streets now? This is not. Stand around and think someone else will handle this.

B (20:33)

To me, one of Sandy's superpowers is being able to diffuse shame. Speaking for just myself, taking action loudly can sometimes feel like stepping onto a minefield of shame. Shame for saying the wrong thing, shame for not doing enough. Soon enough. Shame, shame, shame. And Sandy. He's out there in the middle of the minefield, holding up the mines to show everyone it's totally safe to walk here. Come on over. But shame is a motherfucker. And as I sat there talking with Sandy, I realized on some level, I was still too painfully aware of the mines. Even though this story is literally about Sandy, wanting to hear from CIS people like me. And even though Sandy is open and non judgmental, I was still afraid to share the thing that made me start caring about trans rights. It's a little fuzzy, but if I had to guess, it was probably a trans friend I met when I was in college, someone I immediately felt at home with and was like were same for same. And from there I probably started learning and caring because this was my friend and since then have made many more friends who I love and want to protect. I realize this probably sounds harmless, but I imagine Sandy being like, oh great, another CIS person who thinks they're exactly like me when they haven't had to go through any of the shit I have or oh great it took you actually liking a trans person to think we should exist. Welcome to living in my brain. Okay, so Sandy, I have to confess something which is, as we've been talking, I've been feeling nervous to tell you my own response to your post. I think there is a part of me that is worried about saying the wrong thing, which is a very meta thing to happen in this story.

C (22:43)

Wouldn't you agree? I want to hear your answer.

B (22:47)

Well, what do you think about that?

C (22:49)

I just view myself as trying to like excuse the shame a little bit. I think the shame is here. It doesn't need to be here. Whatever it is everyone's feeling, it's all fine. So I don't know, I'm just curious what it is that's got you all worked up.

B (23:04)

I'm gonna make you hold off for just a bit more. Have you noticed this dynamic with other CIS people ever?

C (23:11)

Do you experience it with white people? It strikes me as a similar thing, a nervousness around discussing race.

B (23:18)

Oh, for sure.

C (23:19)

Yeah. I think for me it's not that interesting. It's just part of it. People become very worried about doing the wrong thing. And I identify with it as a white person, where I get, oh my God, what if I fuck something up? What if I said the wrong thing? And I have that training in me that says shut down and run away and it's like, it's boring. It's why people are upset about pronouns. They're worried about messing up and they're worried that if they mess up, they're bad. And that's why I'm naming it a shame. It's bullshit. If you mess up, you're not bad, you made a mistake. And I think we have a culture that taught us that if you mess up, you're bad or whatever. And it's like, no, we Were all taught a lot of hateful shit, made us think this and that, and we can actually evolve it.

B (24:02)

Okay, I've made you wait long enough. So here's my response to your prompt. I don't remember thinking about trans people at all growing up, which means I was very ignorant. And I probably said and did the wrong thing many times because of that ignorance.

C (24:22)

Same.

B (24:22)

And then in college, I made my first trans friend at the bike co op. And he was awesome. He was, like, really sweet. Didn't grab the chain tool out of my hands, would ask for permission, and we would go on bike rides in the Wissahickon. And he never made me feel stupid for not knowing how to fix my bike. And here's the part that I am worried might be offensive. So I was pretty lonely in college and I didn't have a crew. So when I met this friend at the bike co op, I was immediately like, oh, you're my people. We're part of the same tribe.

C (25:03)

Hey, listen, here's all I hear in this story is you made a trans friend, and I love it. And how many people shared responses that were basically that, yeah, I made a trans friend. It opened my eyes. I just hear you got along with this person and, like, I don't have to, like, read a lot into that.

B (25:23)

I felt silly for being scared to share such an innocuous response, but it also felt like an indicator of how good shame is at shutting us down.

C (25:35)

I'm wondering, the friend that you just told me about who you met through the bike co op, are you still in touch?

B (25:41)

No. No, we're not.

C (25:43)

I would. I would say you should text them. I think you should reach out. Or at least if. If. If you feel it wouldn't be weird. I think that sense of like, hey, pal, I think that's honestly what matters sometimes is just letting people know, hey, I'm in this network with you still. You know, I'm woven with you.

B (26:02)

What makes us contribute to the silence, those of us who do care, besides being overwhelmed by the state of the world? I think for me, as just happened in the conversation with Sandy, my brain yells at me to stay quiet, to not say dumb shit, because it's probably gonna be offensive and that's not worth it. But if I push through that, then my brain yells at me, well, now you're gonna look performative. Or even worse, are you being performative? To which Sandy says, please don't worry about any of that.

C (26:41)

The post was an encouragement to perform. Perform away. Perform your allyship.

B (26:48)

Not Enough people are performing. That's the problem.

C (26:51)

Yeah, no, no, like, like, truly, I, I welcome it.

B (26:59)

Not just because it makes him feel better as a trans person, but because Sandy says that's how change happens socially. As an example, Sandy talked about something he learned about germ theory back in the mid-1800s. Even though germ theory was around and there was evidence to back it up, doctors still resisted washing their hands because it wasn't the practice, often proceeding straight from dissecting a corpse to delivering a baby. And as a result, lots of women died after childbirth. In fact, it took several decades for doctors to widely adopt handwashing only after germ theory became accepted by most people in medicine. Change didn't come from just scientific research progress. It was social enough. Doctors had to see other doctors washing their hands.

C (27:53)

So perform your heart out, guys. I would love more performative CIS allies right now. You know, with like the situation in Washington being what it is like, I need every CIS person who's got any modicum of privilege to be leveraging it. If you own a business, I need you to be putting a flag out. I need you to be making your gender neutral restroom conversion visibly demonstrate not only to trans and gender non conforming people, hey, I care about you, but also to other CIS people. The more that you normalize CIS people supporting trans people and our rights, the more that other CIS people will feel like it's okay to do so. Like perform away allies when it's too much, I'll let you know.

B (28:56)

That was Sandy. Ernest Allen. By the way, since we started talking for this story, Sandy has been noticing less silence from CIS people. Like the giant no Kings protests. And recently, when his alma mater, Brown University, struck a deal with the Trump administration, agreeing to adopt a binary definition of male and female in exchange for lost research funding, Sandy heard from a bunch of former classmates, so good job. But if you are looking for more steps to take, Sandy has a free newsletter called what's Helping Today? And he wrote a post about that. We'll have that link in our show notes as well as a link to support Sandy's writing and a link to the Blue sky post. If you're looking to put some gas in your tank, I highly recommend reading the replies. We'll be back with a new episode on Tuesday, September 9th. Until then, if you're hankering for more proxy, consider joining. Our Patreon Proxy is an independent podcast that means we rely on a bit of advertising, but mostly listeners. Thank you to everyone who signed up. You're the best. Thank you for supporting emotional investigative journalism and trying to get to a world that's a little more emotionally understanding and less confusing. For just $5 a month, you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus interviews. What a bargain. Sign up@patreon.com ProxyPodcast that's patreon.com ProxyPodcast this episode was edited by Tim Howard, mixed by Kyle Pulley and produced by me, Yowei Shaw with help from Charlie Klein. Music in this episode by Tim Howard and her theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Proxy is a proud member of Radiotopia from prx, a network of independent, creator owned, listener supported podcasts. Audrey Martavich is the executive producer of Radiotopia. Yuri Lozordo is the Director of Operations Discover audio with Visionadiotopia FM. As always, you can follow us on Instagram ProxyPodcast and I'm Yowei Shaw. And if you have a niche emotional conundrum syndrome you'd like investigated by Proxy, get in touch@proxythepodmail.com we're taking cases. Alright, for all you sickos still listening, here's a treat. So besides being a writer and journalist, Sandy is an amazing singer and he starred in one of my favorite this American life stories where he chronicles learning to sing with a new voice, going from the voice of a Disney princess to his voice on testosterone. And so I asked him to sing a song for you to leave you with the vibe that he wants you to feel after this story. So here's a bit of Sandy playing piano and covering say what you Will by James Blake.

G (32:20)

Well I've been normal, I've been ostracized I've watched through a window as my young self die I've been popular with all the popular guys I gave them punchlines, they gave me warning signs and I look okay in the magic hour in the right light with the right amount of power and I'm okay with a life that's sunflower and I'm okay with the life of the meteor shower.

C (33:05)

So.

G (33:07)

Say what you will. Go on, say what you will. You're going to do it anyway. Go on, just say what.

C (33:30)

Radiotopia from PRX.