The First Ever Extrovert-Introvert Cage Match

Summary

Proxy with Yowei Shaw

Episode: The First Ever Extrovert-Introvert Cage Match

Release Date: October 7, 2025

Brief Overview

In this humor-filled and deeply insightful episode, host Yowei Shaw stages a no-holds-barred “cage match” between extroverts and introverts, spurred by longstanding personal frustrations navigating friendships across these personality divides. Yowei brings together self-described “major extrovert” Ryan Letts and comedian and “major introvert” Aparna Nancherla, plus renowned introvert-extrovert expert Dr. Jennifer Kahnweiler, to unpack all the grievances, misunderstandings, and secret envies between the two sides. They candidly discuss social energy, ghosting, performance anxieties, and emotional wounds—ultimately seeking mutual understanding and strategies for coexistence.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Pain of Mismatched Energy (04:27–06:55)

• Yowei’s Personal Story:
  Yowei describes the unpredictability and tension in her friendships with extroverts, highlighted by one rare perfect day after a major historical event flattened her extroverted friend's energy:

  “It was effortless. We were seamlessly on the same wavelength and the only reason it was so great is because... my friend was completely fucking depressed.” – Yowei (05:32)

• Central Question:
  How do introverts and extroverts maintain connections without needing catastrophe to synchronize their energies?

2. Airing Grievances (09:32–24:55)

• Ryan’s Extrovert Wounds:
  Struggles with introverts who ghost, cancel, or “fade” from relationships, causing feelings of abandonment:

  “I have a wound around introverts that participate in the practice of either ghosting or poor communication, consistent canceling of plans.” – Ryan (09:32)

  • Reliance on being the planner and initiator.
  • Social/romantic/professional rejections compound this.

• Aparna’s (and Introverts’) Guilt and Overwhelm:

  • Withdraws from connection when overwhelmed, struggles to communicate needs, fears being too vulnerable:

    “Even the idea of sharing with someone that I'm overwhelmed feels too overwhelming.” – Aparna (16:04)

  • Worries sharing even small things will create more social demands than she can meet.

• Hypocrisy and Projection:

  • Both Aparna and Yowei admit to double standards—expecting immediate attention when they’re ready but not always giving it to others.

• Ghosting and the “Slow Fade”:

  • Aparna and Yowei own up to fading or ghosting but explain the pain of blunt confrontations. Ryan emphasizes that the not-knowing is often much worse than a direct break:

    “The worst ones are the ones that I've been ghosted. And I'm like, I'm not even worthy of this person having a conversation with me.” – Ryan (21:40)

  • Extroverts fear being told they are “too much.”

3. The Gift and Price of Extroversion (23:22–25:13)

• What Introverts Appreciate:

  • Extroverts providing conversational “cover”—sometimes it’s relief not to have to talk.

    “Actually, this feels great. I feel like I can not have to worry about how much space I’m taking up and you’re filling the energy.” – Aparna (23:22)

  • Extroverts have a “zest for life” and bring variety and energy.

• Introvert’s Insecurity:

  • Assume extroverts won’t notice if they withdraw; “they have a billion other friends.”
  • Not being “enough” is a shared anxiety.

4. Enter the Peacekeeper: Dr. Jennifer Kahnweiler (26:17–42:51)

• Expert Reflections:

  • Fundamental Difference:
    • “Introverts value privacy... Extroverts connect by learning about you.” – Jennifer (28:00)
    • Extroverts often overcompensate (fill silence), which can push introverts further away.
  • Introvert “Flat Affect”:
    • They’re just thinking, not withdrawn.

• Major Pet Peeves (32:02–38:02):

  • Extroverts:
    • Introverts “not saying what they feel” or never volunteering their true thoughts.

      “I want you to have your voice in the room.” – Jennifer (31:15)

  • Introverts:
    • Extroverts’ expectation of rapid, interesting responses—eye contact, intensity, and quick-fire questioning.

      “Their energy can be sort of intense. It feels like they’re expecting a performance from you.” – Aparna (30:51)

      • If you miss the moment to answer, the window often closes.
  • Introverts on Question-Asking:
    • Aparna and Yowei admit they can get overwhelmed by big, open-ended questions right out of the gate.

• Communication and Boundaries:

  • Jennifer shares a story of an “appointment to vent” in her marriage—a structured approach can help both sides.

    “Can I talk now? ... I need 30 minutes to just vent.... And he told her when exactly.” (35:31)

  • Voice memos and writing can work well for introverts.

5. Toward Understanding and Mutual Admiration (42:07–45:31)

• What Extroverts Value in Introvert Friends:

  • Calm, focus, depth, the ability to be comfortable alone.

    “You get me to think. Focus is a big thing... And you just model how you can be alone.” – Jennifer (42:07)

• Extroverts Envious of Introverts’ Self-Sufficiency:

  “I have a ton of envy. I'm envious of people that don't need to, like, constantly pack their schedule.” – Ryan (42:51)

• Introverts Envious of Extrovert Social Comfort:

  • Fast thinking, extemporaneous speaking, social enticements.

• Heartfelt Acknowledgement:

  “The same point we were saying earlier about maybe too much eye contact... where it's like your light is bright on us. It still feels so nice to be in that beam, you know, like you feel invigorated by that light shining on you.” – Aparna (44:07)

  • Jennifer stresses the importance of gratitude—thank and share what you value in your friends.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On managing social withdrawal:

  “I've employed the slow fade. But, yeah, ghosting completely, I'm like, that's too much, because that's happened to me, and it just... you feel like you're in outer space, you don't know what is happening.” – Aparna (22:18)

• On introvert energy:

  “When I go on vacation, I have to see at least one or two people every day. New people or old friends.” – Ryan (08:39)

• On extrovert energy:

  “It can feel like the sun is shining on you sometimes. And like, it's too hot. There's too much eye contact, too much talking.” – Yowei (33:22)

• On explicit communication:

  “My first interview... he started the conversation by saying, hey, it's the end of the day in New York here, and it's just been a long day. My lack of energy is not a reflection of my excitement to meet you. And my head was completely blown.” – Ryan (38:57)

• On ongoing adaptation:

  “We still live in an extroverted world. And so the work that needs to be done is the extroverts need to stop and understand more about introversion because you have to adapt all the time.” – Jennifer (40:10)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:27] Yowei’s opening and the “coin toss” of introvert/extrovert bond
• [06:55] Meet the guests: Aparna and Ryan, definitions of their own introversion/extroversion
• [09:32] Ryan’s grievances about introvert “ghosting”
• [16:04] Aparna on the struggle to communicate overwhelm
• [21:40] The pain of being ghosted, as described by Ryan
• [23:22] Introverts’ appreciation for extroverts’ conversational energy
• [26:17] Dr. Jennifer Kahnweiler enters
• [28:00] On wiring differences and communication
• [33:22] Pet peeves round: introvert and extrovert perspectives
• [35:31] On venting “appointments” and structuring communication
• [42:07] What extroverts admire in introverts
• [44:07] Aparna on being “lit up” by extroverted friends
• [45:31] Jennifer’s story of gratitude for her introverted husband

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Tone and Language

The episode is candid, self-aware, and frequently humorous, peppered with moments of deep emotional resonance. All participants recognize their own blind spots and often laugh at their foibles, yet the vulnerability and longing for connection are palpable. The tone moves from playful antagonism (“cage match”) to mutual admiration.

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Takeaways

• Both introverts and extroverts experience insecurity, longing, and misunderstandings fueled by differing social needs.
• Communication—stating needs, boundaries, and intentions openly—can dramatically ease friction and increase empathy.
• There is legitimate pain and benefit on both sides, and envy is often mutual.
• Acknowledging and explicitly appreciating each other’s gifts can turn points of tension into sources of connection.

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For listeners: If you’ve ever felt misunderstood, rejected, or exhausted by a friend of opposite energy, this episode provides not only laughter but also practical paths forward and hope for understanding.

Transcript

[A]

Hey, it's Yowei. I'll make this quick. If you've been following our membership campaign, you know that we've been trying to reach 1500 paying Patreon members by October 9th to get an additional 25k from a generous listener and cover the costs of making year two in a sustainable way. And as of this recording, a few days before October 9th, we are at 743 paying Patreon members. That means we've basically doubled the number of members we had, which is amazing, but still far from our goal. The good news is that our generous listener has generously agreed to lower the goalpost and extend the deadline. So now we have to just get to 1000 paying Patreon members by October 31st to get the additional 25k. It's still a stretch, but it's definitely within reach. We're three quarters of the way there already. So if this show means something to you, if you believe in emotional investigative journalism, if you believe emotions rule our world and we need to rigorously report on them, go to patreon.com ProxyPodcast to sign up. You know the brownies by now. When you become a Patreon member, starting at $5 a month, you will get exclusive premium episodes, ad free episodes, access to the chat. Plus anyone with an annual membership will get an original magnet made by me. Annual memberships really help us because we avoid monthly credit card fees. Thank you to everyone who has signed up, who's been listening, sharing, writing in. Seriously, that has been the most amazing thing about this campaign. It makes me feel like we can do this and there's a point to doing this. And even if you can't sign up right now, we still love you and totally get it. And we just feel very lucky to make this show for you. Okay, no more campaign update. Enjoy today's episode.

[B]

Hey, I'm Dr. Maya Shankar. I host a podcast called A Slight Change of Plans that combines behavioral science and storytelling to help us navigate the big changes in our lives.

[C]

I get so choked up because I feel like your show and the conversations are what the world needs. Encouraging, empowering, counter programming that acts like a lighthouse when the world feels dark.

[B]

Listen to A Slight Change of Plans wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

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[D]

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[A]

Welcome to proxy. I'm Yowei Shah, your emotional investigative journalist. So I've got this friend. I love her dearly. I've known her a bunch of years, she's one of my favorite people. But there's this fucked up thing about our friendship which is that when we hang out, it's always a coin to us whether I'll be able to stand her. Okay, that's being a bit dramatic. What I mean is, she's a major extrovert. I'm a major introvert. So when we hang out, the energy is sometimes just off. I never know. Will there be room to be my slow, quiet self? Will I wilt under the heat of her extroverted gaze? Will I wish I was back in bed alone? But sometime last year we had this one glorious hang which I wish every time could be like it was effortless. We were seamlessly on the same wavelength and the only reason it was so great is because just the week before, Donald Trump had been re elected and so my friend was completely fucking depressed. So there we were walking side by side to get ice cream. The specter of this terrifying future hanging over us. And for once, my friend was giving me all the room I needed because she could barely muster words. I told her about the fight I'd just gotten into with some asshole. I told her about losing my luggage. I told her about how I'm entering my villain era. I felt heard. I felt for once like I was the funny one. And it raised this question, something I think about every time I hang out with her, which is, what do we do about this mismatch between introverts and extroverts? Do we really need horrific historical events to get us in the same energetic space? Can there be another solution for getting along? Today we are going to bring together these two adversaries who historically cannot understand each other. On one side, we have Ryan Letts.

[E]

You know, I'm nervous.

[A]

Ryan is nervous because they're an extrovert who has some serious beef with introverts. And Ryan will be sitting across the proverbial round table from one of them. And she's also got beef. Her name is Aparna Nancherla.

[B]

Hi. Hi.

[A]

You might remember her from our episode, Aparna and the Self Loathing Introvert. And like me, Aparna sometimes has a hard time hanging out with her extroverted friends.

[B]

Even though I love you so dearly, it does feel sometimes that we're never fully going to get each other.

[A]

So what we're going to do in this special proxy conversation is air some never before heard grievances. We're going to ask the questions we've been afraid to ask our own friends. And because this will surely get ugly a little later, we will also be welcoming in a peacekeeper. Someone who's made it her profession to help the two sides coexist. Let's enter the ring. Okay, so today we are taking historic step in introvert extrovert relationship. Why don't we do a round of introductions?

[B]

Ryan, do you want to start? I don't want to be presumptuous, but should the extroverts start, maybe we should.

[E]

Subvert stereotypes and have you start, Aparna.

[B]

Okay. Okay. I am. My name is Aparna Nancherla. I'm a writer and performer and comedian based in Los Angeles. And what kind of introvert am I? I guess I'm just someone who is on when I need to be on. And then the rest of the time I'm powering down like a computer or a cell phone that needs a recharge.

[E]

Hi, I'm Ryan Letts. I also live in Los Angeles and I am a psychedelic integration coach. And the type of extrovert that I am is that when I go on vacation, I have to see at least one or two people every day. New people or old friends.

[B]

One.

[A]

Okay, well, Ryan Aparna and I, we met through a previous episode where we discovered that we both share some stress about the extroverts in our life. But I want to start with your extrovert hang ups about us introverts. And I realize I'm putting everyone in boxes. We all know this is a spectrum. Most people fall somewhere in the middle.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And we're being incredibly reductive for the sake of a podcast.

[B]

As we must.

[A]

As we must. Okay, Ryan, tell us what you don't like about us.

[E]

Yes, my hang ups are I tend to have a wound around introverts that participate in the practice of either ghosting or poor communication, consistent canceling of plans. It really has invaded pretty much every area of my life, like socially, romantically, professionally, truly every sphere where I'll connect with somebody and I'll be like, oh my God, lightning in a bottle. And either professional rejection, personal rejection, romantic rejection. And it has created this, like, very intense protective energy. I mean, if you really want to get woo woo. Like, my mother is exactly the same. Like, she has an inexplicable ability to maintain friendships that she's had since she was 5, 10, 15. So I grew up in Burbank, here in LA. My mom grew up in Burbank. My grandparents are from Burbank. So that has allowed them a very specific privilege of maintaining friendships because they've basically lived in the same area their whole life.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

And so I think I inherited this from my mother. The desire to maintain these friendships over long periods of time. There's almost like an ego that I have around it, like, oh, wow, I've had this friend for so long. And it's just been this perpetual cycle of I make a friend, I fold them into my Rolodex, and I make plans with them. But I fully believe that we teach people how to treat us. And so the precedent and the standard that I've set for people is that I'm the one that reaches out and I'm the one that makes plans. And so I think people start to expect that. But then because I have this, you know, not to get all therapy speak, but I have some core wound of abandonment, I start to sense that their energy is backing off. And so I do the anxious avoidant thing where I just latch on even more. And that's when I start to freak out where I'm like, wait, does this person not like me anymore? Did he do something wrong? How do I figure out if I did something wrong? And then we also live in a, like a completely conflict averse culture. So it's just like my worst nightmare.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

But my theory is that because I require so much energy and introverts tend to require less, there's just this like mismatch that's been happening.

[A]

Can you give an example?

[E]

I absolutely can. I have a whole roster. I live in Los Angeles, as I mentioned, and despite having grown up here, I do occasionally get kind of caught up in meeting celebrities. So I met someone that I had recognized and we spent three hours together and we just talked to nobody except each other. And I was like, I'm going to be friends with this gorgeous angel of a human. And we literally looked in each other's eyes and we were like, we will be friends. And never heard from this person again. One text was exchanged and then outside of that, never heard. And that's just, you know, one of myriad examples.

[B]

Is that like the friend equivalent of a love bomb?

[E]

Yes.

[B]

Is that a platonic love bomb? That's my understanding of what love bombing is. It's like really investing emotionally in someone and then kind of just being like. Just kidding.

[E]

I think in this particular instance, I want to give this person some grace and say that we were at a birthday party with a bunch of other actors and they were on. I'm not an actor, but they were. I'm sure you, you've been in that position. Aparna.

[B]

I have, yeah. It's a lot of. It's a strong energy because I think everyone is kind of grappling with how am I presenting and who am I in this space. And we all do that all the time. But if you're a performer by trade, I think you heighten that to even another degree.

[E]

Yeah, I think my hang ups might actually be more with just actors. And I say that with the ultimate amount of compassion and empathy for people who have to deal with that amount of rejection and like the unstable schedule.

[B]

Yeah. Because I think a lot of times I've found with actors or even with other comedians, like, I think they, they can read how you want them to show up so they will meld themselves to what you want them to be in a scenario. And that may or may not be what they actually are. Baseline. They're like, you want this type of show I'm going to give you this type of show, and I might not be this person at all, actually, but aren't we having a great time right now?

[E]

Yeah. I mean, it is your craft, it's an actor's craft to read the room, to be able to respond energetically.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

And it's hard to say, no one wants to look at someone at a party and be like, I just want to let you know that I'm being really, really extroverted right now. But I will never respond to your text, and I will never see you again.

[B]

What's striking to me right now is I've had that same experience because I think I almost come at it from a different angle where I'm at a party, if I click with one person, I'm like, okay, you're my person, because this is not easy for me. And, you know, I latch onto them like a baby duck and imprint fully. And then. And then I assume we have, like, a deep connection that transcends time and space. And then for them, it's just like a party. And I'm like, but. But our souls intermingled. What? Okay, I guess not.

[A]

Aparna, do you feel like you've been the friend that Ryan's talking about who's hard to get in touch with?

[B]

I guess I do relate in that I feel like with certain friends and they might tend towards extroversion. I'm not. Sometimes I'm not sure how to categorize certain friends, but I do think sometimes I can get increasingly reclusive or if I'm stressed out, just not respond to texts promptly or just kind of leave people hanging. And I think it's communicating. And then I realize it's not giving them anything to work with. Because I think what happens for me is I get so overwhelmed that even the idea of sharing with someone that I'm overwhelmed feels too overwhelming.

[E]

Can I ask a question, Aparna? I mean, you kind of alluded to it, that there's the. The notion of expressing that you are overwhelming feels overwhelming.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

Is there another fear? And for the record, I'm not, like, coaching. I'm just trying to better understand.

[B]

Sure. I do think I just have a fear of, like, putting too many cards on the table or something where I'm like, if this person knows this about me, or, like, if I give them an inch, they're going to want a foot. So it's like, if I tell them a little bit, then they're going to want to know more. And I don't feel capable of telling them more right now. So it's almost like predicting how much energy a person might require, whether that may or may not be accurate. I'm sort of presuming for them, but then being like, I don't have room to give them that much energy, so I'm going to give them nothing versus, like, let me at least give them a little something just so they can know what's happening.

[E]

One thing I've heard from introverted people is, like, if I text, that means that I'm going to get another text. So what it sounds like is if you tell someone that you're feeling overwhelmed, it's going to open up this whole can of worms.

[A]

Yeah, I definitely have made the move where I avoid texting someone sometimes, even when I want to text them just because I want to not be asked to hang out, you know, Like, I don't want to invite more connection than I can offer at the moment.

[B]

Yeah, I feel a little duplicitous because I feel like it'll go both ways for me where I'll do that to someone and then if they do that back to me, I'll be like, well, what. How are. What do you have going on that's so important, you know? Like, I'll not give them the same grace I'm giving myself. And I'm like, I'll check myself on. I'll be like, that's not fair. You do the same thing all the time. And I think it is maybe related to one of my core wounds, which is like, when I am ready to show up. Why. Why aren't you ready and waiting for me? Because it's like the. The window is so narrow.

[A]

I feel like I don't often share that much. Like, it takes me longer to talk about what's really going on with me. I need to be drawn out. Someone needs to, like, throw down some rose. Like, it just. It's a who fair. And so then when I do share something, I really relate to what you just said. Aparna, of like, everyone needs to pause what they're doing. Yo way is saying something personal.

[B]

It's like, we think we're like oracles. It's like, when we speak, you better be taking notes.

[A]

Yeah, but it's like, it's not fair.

[B]

It's not fair.

[E]

This is really fascinating. I. This is really painting a very vivid picture.

[A]

Aparna, are you ever the friend who consistently cancels plans?

[B]

I've been working on not overbooking myself, but sometimes even when I'm being Mindful of that and make plans and then have to cancel for whatever reason. What I've tried to do now is immediately been like, but can we do this date? Like, I don't want them to feel so rejected. It's not that I don't want to see you. It's that something didn't work out today.

[E]

This is exactly what I was going to ask for as an extrovert. And I want to be explicit about the fact that I completely understand. I mean, I have to cancel plans or move things occasionally. I am very understanding that people don't have the same amount of energy as I do. But if it continues to happen and it's a repeated pattern, that kind of gremlin comes in that says, this person is not being truthful. And this is the core wound of, like, all the times where that's actually happened. So, Aparna, what you just shared is. Is beautiful. What's important is that I know that this is not this person just gaslighting me and, like, punting things down the line, if that makes sense.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay, now for a hard question. Aparna, when we talked before, you said that you have let relationships with extroverts fade, which is something I have done as well.

[B]

I think sometimes I've had a point of friction with an extroverted friend, and they just process conflict differently, where they maybe go more outward and speak more hastily. And I think that will shut me down and kind of be like, well, there's no way this friendship can continue, like, kind of writing it off unfairly just because we process conflict differently.

[E]

Maybe. Maybe the question is because I've been on the receiving end of this. So do you leave people on red? Are you like, I simply can't engage? Or do you say things like, I can't be friends? Like, what does that look like?

[B]

I think it's more that if I go to someone with a conflict, I will feel so vulnerable because that is so uncomfortable for me. That's so outside my zone of what I think is okay or feels okay, that when they aren't receptive at all or they're immediately defensive, I sort of, like, maybe react unfairly, which is that I'm like, well, why aren't they just, like, hearing me out? Why are they immediately, like, throwing this all back in my face? And then I think that causes me to shut down and maybe walk away.

[E]

If I can share from my own perspective the, like, not knowing is so much worse than the receiving of I don't want to be friends. Like, although you know, I've been on the receiving end of friendship breakups. The worst ones are the ones that I've been ghosted. And I'm like, I'm not even worthy of this person having a conversation with me. I'm not even worthy of the person setting a boundary or, like, telling the truth. And I know it's typically about the other person, but it does, like, make me very squishy.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I know. The ghosting, I. I am like, that's too much. I can't do that. But I do feel like I've employed the slow fade. But, yeah, ghosting completely. I'm like, that's too much, because that's happened to me, and it just. Yeah. If you feel like you're in outer space, you don't know what is happening.

[A]

As someone who is definitely ghosted before and is still guilty of doing that from time to time, for me, I just have a really hard time saying things that I think might hurt someone's feelings, especially when it feels like I'm saying, you're too much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, it's too much contact. It's too much calling. It's too much talking. It's too much energy. Because I have extroverted friends who have told me that they have a wound around this. You know, around being told they're too much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't want to inflict that kind of pain.

[B]

Mm. I was thinking, like, what makes me kind of feel very safe in extrovert friendships? And I think for me, it is that I do have some extroverted friends who are always like, oh, sorry, I'm talking so much. Like, you haven't talked at all. I feel like I'm hogging the conversation. Whereas for me, I'm like, actually, this feels great. I feel like I can not have to worry about how much space I'm taking up and you're filling the energy, and I just enjoy spending time with you. So I think that's actually sometimes a really nice thing about my extra extroverted friends, where it might seem to them like they're being too much, but for me, it's actually sometimes it's like, just. Right.

[E]

Thank you.

[A]

Yeah. I'm thinking of some of my extroverted friends where you really get to sit back and just, like, watch a show when you're with them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is such a gift. And it's almost like you get to, like, pillow princess, the social interaction, not the pillow princess.

[B]

But I think the flip side of that is that when I maybe Fade out on an extrovert friendship. Or I'm not, like, showing up the way I should. I sort of over assume, oh, they have a billion other friends. They're not even going to care. I barely bring anything to the table when we hang out. I sort of navel gaze maybe in a way that I'm like, they're not even going to register this.

[E]

Despite the fact that we're on kind of opposite ends of the spectrum, it seems like it's all rooted in the same thing, which is like, I'm not enough. I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy enough.

[B]

Totally.

[E]

Seems to me that it's just like, you know, I'm a worm. Yeah, that's. It just boils down to I'm a worm.

[A]

Well, at this point in the conversation, I was expecting things to have come to blows.

[E]

I can say shitty things. I mean, I could be like, text people back.

[B]

I think that's fair.

[A]

Totally fair. After the break, what I can't stand about you and what you can't stand about me. Welcome back to the show. Okay, so at this point in the conversation, things were getting pretty heated. So I wanted to welcome a special guest to the Ring. Someone with decades of experience negotiating peace talks between introverts and extroverts. This person had been sitting in the call, camera off, listening up until this point. Jennifer, do you want to unmute yourself and come on camera?

[C]

Oh, my God. I've been dying to this extra.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[E]

She's been here the whole time.

[B]

I know. This is quite a reveal.

[C]

What a wonderful conversation. Plus, I'm learning some new terms. Pillow princess, love bomb. I love it. I'm going to ask my daughter in Los Angeles.

[A]

Okay, well, Jennifer, can you introduce yourself and why you are qualified to be a proxy on the subject of friendship between introverts and extroverts?

[C]

Well, I'm Jennifer Kahnweiler. I have my doctorate in counseling, psych, and organizational behavior. And I guess you could say my calling has been to understand introverts and extroverts and how we get along or not get along. The focus has really been on amplifying introverted leaders in organizations. So I've written four books on topics related to that, on leadership, on influence, on how teams work together with introverts and extroverts. And I guess my real qualifier for being an introvert ally is that I've been married to a very, very strong introvert for, let's see, 52 years.

[A]

And you identify as an extrovert.

[C]

Oh, yeah. Oh, no doubt about that. No doubt about that.

[A]

Jennifer said she's such an extrovert that even little kids call her out. One time she was walking with her granddaughter, who was 3 or 4 at the time.

[C]

I was just babbling, you know, I was just babbling. We're going on this path. And she goes, nina. She calls me Nina. Just talk in your brain. So that's what I try to remember when I'm just wanting to verbalize what every single thing I'm thinking is like. Talk in your brain, Jennifer.

[A]

Well, so you've been listening this whole time and taking notes.

[C]

Oh, gosh, you should see them.

[A]

Do you have any initial reactions?

[C]

So I think to Ryan, to what you were saying about people not following up with you. What I have learned from an extrovert point of view, introverts need time and space. One of the wiring differences that we have is that introverts value privacy so they will share about themselves after they get to know you. But extroverts connect by learning about you. They want to get to know you. That's why we're disconnecting so much, because we're trying to read your facial expression, for instance. And it's just, just what we used to call in counseling, a flat affect. Like nothing. You're not giving me anything. And I've done this when I've given speeches and let's say when I started early doing public speaking and people didn't respond, I would just go faster and faster like a hamster in a wheel. And that was even more of a turnoff. So I think we do that in some of our behaviors as extroverts because we're trying to get introverts to engage with us because we're good at getting people to open up, but when they don't, it's very challenging.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Jennifer, why do introverts tend to have a flatter affect? That resonates with me, but like, I don't get why, you know, you're in.

[C]

Your heads, you're thinking. So you're not thinking about what your expression is right then because you're up here.

[B]

I feel like I've had multiple times lately where I've been in a conversation with someone and then suddenly I'm like, what is your face doing? Like, you haven't been paying attention to what you're doing with your face for like the last five min.

[C]

Once you're aware. Right. Then you can see it's not personal. Like with my husband, once I learn that he's just shutting down, then I could just kind of go do my thing and not sitting there being pissed off and continually ask him what's wrong. Which is like the worst thing you can ask an introvert. Nothing's wrong. They're just in their head.

[A]

Okay, I now want to move to the buzzers.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Okay, can everyone push your buzzer to make sure it works? Okay, so here's the game I want to play. I'm going to go around and ask everyone what your biggest pet peeves are about talking to the other side. And for the rest of this conversation, if you notice yourself or someone else commit one of these pet peeves, hit the buzzer, and then we'll pause and talk about it.

[B]

Oh, this is stressful. I'm like, wait, I thought we were trying to build bridges here.

[A]

Ryan, let's start with you. What are some things that stress you out about talking to introverts?

[E]

Not being able to read them. Feigning extroversion. People that I can tell aren't actually, like, genuinely wanting to follow up.

[A]

Aparna, anything that bothers you about extroverts in conversation?

[B]

Yeah, I think just that their energy can be sort of intense. It feels like they're expecting a performance from you. I think I sense that need from them. You're with me. Things are happening. The world is moving and shaking. What are you bringing the table? Maybe they want me to be a certain level of interesting that I don't always feel like I can meet.

[A]

Okay. Jennifer, what about you?

[C]

Well, I have one that really is my biggest challenge with introverts still is to speak up. To speak up from a work situation as friends. Not saying what you feel. It's the most frustrating thing for me because I can pull it out of you probably most of the time, but I don't want to do that. I want you to have your voice in the room.

[E]

Jennifer, you mean not like literally volumize. Just feeling empowered to speak.

[C]

To say your truth. Right, to say your truth. We're happy to hear from you, but we don't often give you the space to do that because we're not comfortable silence. So we keep running in. Well, they also introverts. And you guys can tell me too think that we don't listen. And that is one of our fatal flaws. We don't listen.

[B]

Well, dragging me just to interject, I will say I. I have several extroverted friends who have told me the same story like five times. And sometimes I'll just be like, no, I haven't heard this before because it almost feels like, greatest hits to me. I'm like, oh, I know this one. And I could kind of sing along. I'm not always like, oh, my God, you don't remember that you told me this story before, Jennifer.

[A]

Not speaking up, not saying your truth. Why is that associated with introversion, though?

[C]

So many introverts, and this starts from a young, young age because they're internal and they don't get the practice. It's always incredible to me how insecure they are about speaking up. And then I think about it, it's like, no, you haven't had a chance to learn this. If you don't get the opportunity to practice how to say something, for instance, in a conflict like we talked about, or when you want to say no, to say, I'm busy or I have plans, rather than go through a whole rigmarole. All of these things are just the. Your muscle that's getting stronger as you're doing that many of us extroverts have, because we react and we're verbal so much, we learn the words to use. We've put our foot in our mouth enough times. Right. I mean, I'll speak for myself, Ryan.

[E]

That's a story for another day.

[A]

Okay. Just to finish going around saying what our pet peeves are for me. Sometimes with extroverts, it can feel like the sun is shining on you sometimes. And like, it's too hot. There's too much eye contact, too much talking. And sometimes it feels like they'll ask you one question. And if you blow that opportunity to say whatever you need to say, you will not get asked another question throughout the entire hang.

[E]

I'll be controversial. My take is that I think it's actually introverts, from my perception, that are less likely to ask questions. Because as an extrovert, I will ask you endless questions.

[B]

Yeah. In my head, I think of extroverts as asking a lot of questions because they want to know stuff.

[C]

Yeah. It'll be a barrage. It's like the prosecutor questioning a witness on the witness stand.

[E]

That is true.

[A]

I think I've noticed with some extroverted friends, there'll be a question at the beginning that's like, tell me everything. Big questions like that at the top of the. The hang, where I'm just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I just woke up. This is a lot. And I don't know how to answer this question.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

So this is. This is when I feel frustrated as an extrovert, when I'm like, why don't you share that in the moment? Why don't you share? Oh, I don't feel comfortable talking about this. Or I'm not available to answer that. Or like, just diverting.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay.

[B]

I will, I will counter. Well, not counterpoint, but I will say I did do that once in a conversation with a friend where I'm like, when you asked me that big a question right out of the gate, my brain goes blank. And she was like, okay. And the fact that she moved on immediately, I was like, oh, well, I've been stressing out on saying that for months.

[E]

My reaction would have been, cool. Thank you for sharing.

[B]

So I think you're right. It's like the muscle, it's like I have to get used to just speaking my mind more and not making it this huge build up.

[C]

Right. Just communicate. Just say what you need.

[B]

Right.

[C]

There was a couple I interviewed. I remember that she's a high flying consultant and she needs to vent. She's very extroverted. She called herself a flaming extrovert. And her husband's very introvert. He'd be at home, you know, and so she would call and she said, can I talk now? Because now's not a good time. She goes, I need 30 minutes. 30 minutes to just vent. So he goes, okay. And he told her when exactly. And I do this with my husband. We make appointments a lot. If I have something I really need to talk to him about, and then he's ready. And her husband was ready to hear her vent and she just talks for 30 minutes and lets out all her shit about the clients and all frustrate. Then she feels great. He's like, okay, I listened to her. Now I could go, you know, but you have to talk about how you're, how you're communicating. I don't think we do that enough.

[B]

Yeah, that's true. Because I've lived with extroverts and I think the challenge there has been like, they'll just walk in a room and start talking and kind of expect you to engage. And I'm like, I can't do this.

[C]

I do want to throw in that you all like writing.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[C]

Like, you ask a question, the extrovert will go like. And they won't even sometimes read the whole thing you're asking. Right. They might answer one question on the list dragged, but the introvert likes time to think about it. So, I mean, this is more in work situations, but it also can be with friends. Right, let's make some plans. Here are some of the questions. Rather than just kind of throwing it at them verbally. What do you all think about that?

[B]

Yeah, Because I find I write way longer texts to my extroverted friends than they write to me. But I found a middle. Good middle ground for us is voice memos. I think voice memos are nice because I don't have to worry about the eye contact. I can sort of think on my own schedule and let things come to me naturally. And then I feel like they are also allowed to kind of. Oh, my God. I feel like everyone was buzzing me.

[C]

While I was buzzing.

[A]

Jennifer mentioned this before, that a big complaint extroverts have is that introverts can be hard to read because we're more internal and don't show as many expressions on our face. And this is why Jennifer hit the buzzer on a parna.

[E]

I don't. I don't agree with that. Jennifer.

[B]

Wait, I'm confused. Was I doing that right now?

[C]

I don't think it was bad. You still used your eyes, but it was like you were looking away and like, thinking. But you had said that before that you were aware that you do that.

[B]

I know. And I almost wanted to say that I think I've given myself permission to do that more with age because I think when I grew up, my mom was like, make enough eye contact. So I feel like I've almost been like, you don't have to.

[A]

I think this gets to the heart of what we're talking about today, which is like the mismatch. There are differences. There are things that either side are gonna do that will annoy the other side.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And how do we reconcile without having to make the introverts conform to the standards of this extroverted world? And then also for extroverts, do they have to come over to the introvert side? Because that also doesn't seem very fair.

[E]

I can only speak for myself, but I know that this is rooted in the hypervigilance of, like, I need to know that Aparna and yohe and like other introverts, just people in general like me.

[B]

Yeah.

[E]

So I need to take care of what's on my side of the street. And it's just about expressing. So I remember my first interview I used to work in for a diversity equity inclusion consulting company. And my first interview with my prospective manager. He started the conversation by saying, hey, it's the end of the day in New York here, and it's just been a long day. My lack of energy is not a reflection of my excitement to meet you. And my head was completely blown and I was like, this is a place that I want to work at.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

For me, the bottom line is we have to talk about our personal styles, what works for us and what doesn't work for us. I mean, this works in organizations where people do user manuals on a team. I had a boss once, she said, I'm in my totally introvert side today, so don't even talk to me. And she was my best boss ever because she communicated and she set that out for all of us to be open. And we still live in an extroverted world. And so the work that needs to be done is the extroverts need to stop and understand more about introversion because you have to adapt all the time.

[A]

I was going to ask about that because I feel like, yes, introversion is in the zeitgeist, but I don't feel like it's reached the level of popular consciousness with extroverts yet.

[E]

I mean, I think that extroverts and introverts, it's pretty ubiquitous. But if you were to ask me a yes or no question around. Do extroverts empathize enough with introverts? Absolutely not. Like, are we aware of what introverts are going through? 100% not.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah. Oh, it's absolutely.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[C]

There are glimmers of hope on the horizon for some reason.

[A]

This is healing.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I always feel like in a defensive crouch, like I have to justify my position to extroverts all the time. It feels really nice to hear that. Oh, yeah. Sometimes we're not giving you guys ground. Just hearing that feels really validating.

[C]

Yeah. Because we don't feel the pain. You know, I was just gonna say one other thing because I'm. I have to get it in. Come on, somebody buzz me. I know I was. Two of you are doing it. All right, I'll say my comment.

[E]

No, Jennifer, go ahead.

[B]

No, no, no.

[C]

Okay, no, now I already forgot what it.

[A]

All right, final question. I wanted to give this space to you, Aparna. Are there any questions you're curious about asking the extroverts in the room?

[B]

Oh, yeah. Well, I guess. I mean, you've both alluded to these things, but I guess what does keep you invested in these introvert friendships? Despite. Despite all the. I know you're. You're married to an introvert, Jen. But like, yeah, I think based on my own insecurities about not seeming interesting or quick enough, I guess seeing the other side of how that's being received would be fascinating to hear.

[C]

Oh, my God. I don't even know where. Where to start. You guys. Calm me down, okay? You get me to think. Focus is a big thing that I'm able to do. I met with a friend yesterday, coffee with all these ideas, and he's like, okay, let's start from the beginning. And right then I could just kind of breathe, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And you just model how you can be alone and be with yourself, love yourself. To me, I learn a lot from my friends and just watching the way they operate and certainly my husband. And then I started becoming more comfortable with that. Just being by myself and not having to always have dates with people or doing things. I could go on and on, but those are just initial thoughts.

[E]

I mean, frankly, I have a ton of envy. I'm envious of people that don't need to, like, constantly pack their schedule. The fact that, like, I'm constantly concerned about how many people are texting me and how many people I have to respond to. And it's almost like a checklist in my brain. And the notion of, like, okay, if I didn't need to have that social battery energized by other people and was more self energized, what would my life look like? How much work could I get done? How much more productive could I be?

[A]

That was really nice to hear. I'm finding myself getting emotional. I didn't think I would be. Yeah, that was really nice. I also feel envious for the other side a lot of the time.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The fast talking, the fast situation thinking, being comfortable with extemporaneous speaking would be very helpful for my profession. So I'm extremely jealous about that. The energy, the stamina. I get so much good gossip in my life. I get invited to fun parties and there's just like a zest for life because I'm often tired and I'm just like, it's. It's too much. Life is too much. But like, the extroverts in my life, like, they want more.

[B]

As an introvert. The same point we were saying earlier about maybe too much eye contact or something, where it's like your light is bright on us. It still feels so nice to be in that beam, you know, like you feel invigorated by that light shining on you.

[C]

That's so beautiful, what you listed there. I got emotional too, and I think, I wonder what it would be like if we told each other that more. Right. Because I had an experience a few weeks ago when I did this exercise in this conference and they asked us to come up with a story. And I thought about my husband and how one time he had led me. I don't have to go through the whole thing, but how he had led me out of the dark on the phone. I was lost in the hills of Pennsylvania and I got very emotional. I was like, well, that's his quiet, introverted side. Sitting at home with maps, saying, like, do you see a river ahead? Like, what do you say? And I was like, I have no idea. I see a cow. And I was like, that's how he shows me love. And then I thought of all these other things, and I started talking to my daughters, and they're like, oh, God, that's what dad does. He's always texting us where our plane is, where we're. You know, he's like, that's how he shows his love. That's an introvert. Okay? He's like, following everything, and he's like, deep into it. And I'm like, I never thanked him for it in all these years, you know? So it just seems to me I can thank my friends, too, for what they give me and how good that would feel.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that was the first ever extrovert introvert bloodbath roundtable. I didn't expect it to be so harmonious, but I guess it's proof we can get along. Thank you to our esteemed guests for participating. Aparna Nancherla has a book of essays called Unreliable Narrator to keep tabs on where she's performing next. Follow her on Instagram at aparnapkin and you can find out more about Ryan Letts and their psychedelic integration [e-mail] and Jennifer Kahnweiler has a podcast called Introvert Ally. You can find out more about her books and her coaching for introverts in the [e-mail] we'll have those links in our show notes. All right, everyone. Proxy is an independent podcast and we mostly rely on listener support. We have until October 31st to get to a thousand paying Patreon members, so we can score an additional 25k from a generous listener and cover the cost of making a year. 2. As of this recording, we're at around 750. We are so close. We're 3/4 of the way there. For just $5 a month, you'll get exclusive premium episodes and access to the chat. What a bargain. Sign [e-mail] ProxyPodcast that's patreon.com ProxyPodcast this episode was edited by Tim Howard, mixed by Kyle Pulley and produced by Produced by me, Yowei Shaw with help from Charlie Klein. Music in this episode by Tim Howard and our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Special thanks to all the extroverts in my life who put up with this annoying introvert. Proxy is a proud member of Radiotopia from prx, a network of independent, creator owned, listener supported podcasts. Audrey Martavich is the Executive Producer of Radiotopia. Yuri Lozorto is the Director of Operations, discover audio with Visionadiotopia FM. As always, you can follow us on Instagram, ProxyPodcast and I'meyshaw. Get in [e-mail] we'll be back on Tuesday, October 21st, back to our regular schedule of new episodes every other Tuesday. Thanks for listening.

[B]

Radiotopia from prx.