← Proxy with Yowei Shaw
Proxy with Yowei Shaw
The Group That Gets It
00:52:27
The story of someone who suffered alone in secret for 8 years with a problem he was too afraid to Google - and then he stumbled into a support group. In this episode, we dive into the emotional dynamics of support groups with Jason Yu. Why did...
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- [00:00]
Host
Living at Odds is a new series from how to. About coexisting in American politics, our families. And in one Oklahoma school district, people started asking, hey, have you considered running for school board? I mean, duty called. So of course I was. What was your reaction when you heard she was running for school board? Oh. To find Living at Odds, make sure you're following Slate's how to Podcast. New episodes are available now. So, back in the summer, back before the election, back before all I wanted to do is lay in bed and retreat from strangers. I got an email from a listener named Jason Yu that made me feel hopeful about other people.
- [00:47]
Jason Yu
I was a little embarrassed after we first met because I was like, fangirling of, like, I was very nervous and I'm like, oh, like, Jason, why did you talk so much?
- [00:58]
Host
What are you talking about? To be clear, Jason, I am a Fangirl of U2. I'm a fan, because Jason did something that I've never had the courage to do that feels radical in our culture. He was in a dark, lonely place, but instead of going it alone, he found community by joining a support group. And that support group changed his life. It even changed his career path. He quit his job as a civil engineer and is now a counseling student. He also hosts and produces the Fidget podcast, which is basically a support group in podcast form anyway. Hearing Jason's experience with support groups made me wonder, why haven't I ever considered going to a support group? I know I could have used a support group or several of them at different points in my life. Why haven't I ever even looked one up? There are over 500,000 support groups in the United States with over 6.25 million Americans participating in one at any given time, which is a tiny, tiny fraction of the population. The other day, I polled some friends and family, and out of 38 people, only four had ever been to a support group. Which is better than average, but still. So what is that about? Why do so many of us choose not to seek out support from people going through the same thing? What would change if we did, if we learned how to receive and offer support to others? Today on Proxy, we have an emotions beat episode for you. Jason Yu is going to guide us through the world of support groups and break down the mechanics of why they helped him when nothing else seemed to be working. A heads up. We're going to be talking about body focused, repetitive behavior a lot in this episode, including one very serious incident. All right, we're going to start by going back a decade back to when Jason was a sophomore in college when one day he noticed he had cuts on his fingers. And the cuts didn't seem to be going away.
- [03:20]
Jason Yu
The most prominent ones, they would happen like near, maybe near my knuckles, like where my fingers bend, but yeah, back of my hand, front of my hand, sometimes even on my wrist.
- [03:31]
Host
You didn't realize what was happening at first. What did you think was going on?
- [03:35]
Jason Yu
The seasons are changing. I hope this goes away. You know, it wasn't actually for a few months to where the cuts like they wouldn't heal and they would consistently open up and they were in these oddly specific places. And that's kind of when I started cluing in. Oh, I am doing something to kind of perpetuate these cuts. So a piece of it was realizing that I was doing it to myself in my sleep. And so this feeling that like oh my like subconscious is like the word I was using was like attacking. I'm like attacking myself. It was really scary and I was really angry at my body for just not acting in the way that it should be.
- [04:39]
Host
Jason started wearing gloves to bed, but he'd wake up to find the gloves on the floor and fresh wounds on his hands. Then Jason tried tying his hands together before going to sleep, which was pretty tricky. But he figured it out, using his mouth to tie the knot. But that didn't work either. The cuts kept appearing, scabbing, reopening. Jason remembers bleeding on tests he'd take in class. Bleeding while cooking for his friends.
- [05:09]
Jason Yu
This is like not public sanitation health friendly at all. I don't know what my 19 year old Bryn was thinking, but that's where it was at.
- [05:16]
Host
Did you tell anyone about what was going on at this point?
- [05:20]
Jason Yu
So I just was hoping like, it'll get better, it'll get better, it'll get better, it'll get better. So I didn't tell anyone. I didn't tell my parents. I didn't tell my friends. People would notice, right? And they would ask like, oh, Jason, what happened to your hands? And and I would make excuses like, oh, I like fell off my bike or oh, I like cut my hand cooking or something.
- [05:43]
Host
And did you think about going to a doctor or seeing a therapist at this point?
- [05:48]
Jason Yu
Honestly, no.
- [05:50]
Host
Why not?
- [05:52]
Jason Yu
Great question. I also ask that my family isn't really one to like go to doctors about stuff. They're a tough it up Asian family.
- [06:04]
Host
I know the type. Yes. Did you google to try to find out what was going on?
- [06:10]
Jason Yu
I think I was too afraid.
- [06:12]
Host
Wow.
- [06:12]
Jason Yu
I almost like didn't Want to know the truth? It's almost this, like, blissful ignorance. If anything, I was having a great time. Like, I was really enjoying school, great group of friends, all these sorts of things. I felt like I didn't deserve to have problems. And I think this is another mentality that I adopted from my parents of like, oh, other people have it worse.
- [06:35]
Host
You haven't said the word shame in this conversation, but when we first talked, you said it was your shameful secret.
- [06:43]
Jason Yu
Totally.
- [06:44]
Host
What were you ashamed of exactly?
- [06:46]
Jason Yu
I feel like a lot of the language around mental health is around, like, willpower. And this seemed like a problem that I could, like, use willpower to solve if I just focus hard enough or really diligent. If I was just better, then I wouldn't be picking my skin.
- [07:07]
Host
Things finally came to a head in a really dramatic moment. Jason had just finished giving a presentation for a student club. He was standing outside the lecture hall in the foyer, talking to a friend about how he blew it, when all of a sudden, he started attacking himself, clawing his face and punching a wall. The police came and handcuffed Jason and took him to the hospital. For the first time, he saw medical professionals. And at first, Jason was relieved the secret was out. He was now getting help. But Jason says none of the help helped. He started seeing a school psychologist, but he never got a diagnosis. The skin picking continued, and Jason continued to not talk about it. Not with friends, not with family, not with a school psychologist.
- [08:03]
Jason Yu
I didn't know how to talk about it. Like, even the words, I pick my skin until they bleed, and that makes me scared. I think it took me, like, another eight years for me to form that sentence in my brain.
- [08:16]
Host
And the thing that finally unlocked that sentence in his brain was, of all things, a Facebook post.
- [08:24]
Jason Yu
This girl I was dating, she, like, handed me her phone to be like, jason, I want to show you this Facebook post. I, like, held her phone, and I was like, oh, my God. It was just this Facebook post saying, hi, world, I have trichotillomania. It means I compulsively pull out my hair. I'm looking to start a support group maybe, you know, someone who pulls out their hair, picks their skin, bites their nails. They're all related under this acronym called bfrb, which is Body focused Repetitive behavior. So, yeah, that was that, like, googling moment. That's when it dawned on me. I was like, oh, yeah, other people struggle with this.
- [09:04]
Host
You wouldn't Google yourself, but Google came to you. Google came to me before that moment. Did it ever occur to you that other people might have the same condition.
- [09:17]
Jason Yu
I'm embarrassed to say. Like, no, this was like an alien thing that I was just struggling with and no one else will understand.
- [09:31]
Host
After the break, Jason walks through the door into his first support group and holds her hand and brings us along too. Okay, so it's been eight years since Jason Yu first started picking his skin in College. He's 27 now, and he's just seen this Facebook post on his girlfriend's phone. And he's learned two life changing things. First, he is not alone. He is not the only one with his condition. And second, these other people are interested in meeting up to form a support group. So Jason responds to the post and says, I'd love to connect. And a little while later, one day after work, he walks to the Starbucks close to his office. This would be the first time he's ever talked to people who are going through the same thing as him. That's where my conversation with Jason picks up. I want to go back to this moment where you meet up. How does it go?
- [10:37]
Jason Yu
Oh, one detail that I have from that night is when I arrived at the Starbucks, I think I ordered a hot chocolate or something. We talked as a group probably for three hours.
- [10:48]
Host
Wow.
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Jason Yu
I didn't even hear my name being called for my hot chocolate, so it just sat on the counter. And so after our meeting ended, it.
- [10:56]
Host
Became cold chocolate cake.
- [10:57]
Jason Yu
Cold chocolate. After our meeting ended, I'm like, oh, yeah, I ordered this. So then I go back to the counter and then I'm like, oh, I think this is for me. My little name is still printed out on the cup order. And then the guy was like, oh, yeah, we thought you left. Like, we could microwave it if you want. And I'm like, no, it's okay, man.
- [11:17]
Host
Like, wow, I love that detail. Yeah, you were just, like, so engrossed in the conversation, three hours straight. Were you trading, like, war stories? Were you making jokes? What did you talk about?
- [11:33]
Jason Yu
I think a lot of that first conversation was about how, like, other people don't get it. Instances when we've tried to explain it to other people and it didn't go well, or feeling like I was the only one. And yes, it was this thing that I was ashamed about, but. But I think that's what's so, like, magical about a support group and being with another person who, like, gets it. And I don't have to explain it to them and I don't have to, like, treat the issue with, like, kid gloves. Kind of like, we can just Talk openly about it.
- [12:09]
Host
Did anybody say anything at that meeting specifically that helped you?
- [12:13]
Jason Yu
One thing that was really exciting about it was we talked about, like, making it ongoing group, and we talked about, like, pre readings. We talked about, like, oh, there's a TED talk that I saw once. Let's make it a study group. And so I think that changed my mentality from it being like, oh, I'm a victim to this. This skin picking is something that's just happening to me, and I can't do anything to learn about it or manage it. It shifted to, wait a minute, if I read up on it, maybe it'll get better, you know? And I think just the introduction of that was that world shift moment for me.
- [12:52]
Host
Was that meeting the first time you talked about skin picking without feeling shame?
- [12:58]
Jason Yu
100%, yeah. And I think it's because they came to the group with similar intentions. Like the other members of the group. They had that same curiosity and desire. And I think something about skin picking that is so, like, I guess like, soul crushing is. It feels relentless. It could be like, oh, I picked my skin one night and it was really bad. It created all these cuts. But maybe I have two, three days where I don't. And it's like, oh, okay, those weren't too bad. They're healing a little bit. They're healing a little bit. They're healing a little bit. But then one bad night, five minutes, the boulder rolls to the bottom of the hill. I'm just like, oh, I'm back at square one. And that cycle of going in and out of that for, again, eight years, it just felt, like, very hopeless. What's the point of even trying to manage it?
- [14:02]
Host
But that shifted for you after this meeting.
- [14:06]
Jason Yu
Because I think I started seeing, like, progress in a different way. Progress wasn't whether or not my hands are healed. Progress was, look at how much awareness I have. Look how much information I have. Something that I often say now, after, you know, being in the support group space for a while now, is learning about my BFRB and learning about my mental health. It's sort of like learning a new language. When I was so ashamed and so alone with my experience, I never had to, like, describe it to someone else. So I was, like, very intimately familiar with my picking, but I didn't have words for it. I just, like, knew, you know, in the same way that, like, I know the place on my thumb where if I bend my index finger, I know that there's a wound that forms there. But without a support group and other people I've never had to put those words together to be like, how do I describe this to you? Right. Like, now I'm fluent in this new language that I've learned and cultivated. What I really like about the support group is that we're in this environment where we're all trying to learn this new language together. It's, like, very supportive in that way. Versus when other people asked me in the past, maybe someone who didn't pick their skin, and they asked me, like, oh, Jason, why are you doing this? That is where my language broke down. I didn't have the words to explain to them. I don't know why I'm picking my skin. Right. I felt like, again, I was being tested and I was failing the test because I didn't have the words. But now in the support group, I'm like, oh, would you use this word?
- [15:58]
Host
You can workshop what to say to people when they ask you, why do you do this thing?
- [16:03]
Jason Yu
Yeah.
- [16:04]
Host
Oh, that's cool. I love how you're describing this as, like, learning a language. Like, it kind of reframes this horrible, really hard thing to, like, now it's a fun group activity. You know what I mean? With your friends.
- [16:21]
Jason Yu
Yeah. I saw this study once about people who learn English as a second language. And if multiple ESL people are in the same room, their level of understanding between each other is actually pretty good. So if a French person who is learning English and a German person who's learning English, and, like, a Korean person who's learning English, if these three people are in one room and they can only communicate in English, they actually understand each other pretty well. So I think that's that support group feeling of, it's okay if it's not perfect. We're not judging each other for that. But if a native English speaker enters that room, all of a sudden, their competency goes down and they understand each other less, and they're more afraid to take risks and say words because they feel the judgment of, oh, I'm speaking in an accent. Oh, my English isn't good enough. Right.
- [17:17]
Host
That's so interesting.
- [17:19]
Jason Yu
Wow. Yeah. It's just, like, magical, you know?
- [17:22]
Host
So after that first meeting, I know you all started meeting every week in person and growing the support group. Maybe this is a basic dumb question, but, like, how did being in the support group help you with your skin picking?
- [17:39]
Jason Yu
Yeah, in between meetings, I was, like, collecting data. I was, like, running experiments and, like, oh, tonight I tried this, and. And it didn't work. Let me take it back to the group. What do you guys think about it? Oh, okay. That's so cool, right? It's not so much the picking of the skin itself. It's like, the urgency to pick is so strong. And so with that, like, audience of people, like co collaborators, whenever I felt that urgency at home, I was no longer, like, scared of it. I'm like, ooh, this is, like, good field data, right?
- [18:15]
Host
You're like, this group of researchers working together. And it seems like the together piece, like, that's what makes support groups work. And what I don't understand is, you know, I think most people get that suffering alone is not the best solution. Most people know that there are support groups out there, and yet so many of us don't reach out. And so, like, what is stopping us? Like, why is the default to suffer alone rather than to seek out community peer support?
- [18:48]
Jason Yu
Yeah. I've thought about this question a lot. When I first left my engineering job and I kind of came out more publicly about my skin picking, and I was telling some of my old co workers about. Yeah. What it is that I lived with and stuff like that. I had this one lady that I worked with. She. She was like, oh, Jason, like, my son picks his skin.
- [19:11]
Host
I.
- [19:12]
Jason Yu
So we started talking about it a little bit. Like, oh, like, when did you notice all the. All these sorts of things? And then at this one point, I asked this question. Does your son feel any shame about his skin picking? Right. Like, does he try to hide it? And what this mom responded with was, like, jason, if anything, I want him to feel more shame. I am actively trying to shame him.
- [19:35]
Host
What?
- [19:36]
Jason Yu
And hearing that, my, like, heart broke a little.
- [19:41]
Host
Oh, my God.
- [19:42]
Jason Yu
Because I get why she was saying that. She was saying, like, wait, but why? My assumption is she was saying, if I can shame my son out of picking his skin at home, he won't do it at school. Because her fear is teachers and friends and peers, they won't understand it, and so they'll bully him and be mean to him. So my hope is I will shame him, and that'll get him to stop, and then we can move on with our lives. We live in this culture where we actually assume shame is, like, a really effective tool to get us to stop. And it's, you know, misguided, but I, like, get why people think that way.
- [20:28]
Host
Well, this. This is my hot take, which is it feels like shame is useful for getting other people to fall in line with group norms, but when you use shame to make yourself do something, it's just, like, not effective. And probably bad things will happen.
- [20:48]
Jason Yu
Right. Like, what can shame help with and where is it? Just, like, not appropriate. So maybe one example is like, I got laser eye surgery, but I used to wear glasses. And I also felt some, like, a little bit of shame about wearing glasses. Right. But other times I'd be like, well, Jason, there's nothing to be ashamed of. It's not like your fault your eyes are like that.
- [21:07]
Host
Right. Like, things you can't change about yourself. That's probably not a place where shame is going to work.
- [21:14]
Jason Yu
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [21:15]
Host
Okay. So, Jason, I want to think more about why so many people don't seek out support groups when it could help them. And I have this theory I want to run by you, which is that when we hear the word support group, we think of addiction, we think of losing a spouse. There's like, a few big categories that we're like, oh, yes, support group makes sense, right?
- [21:40]
Jason Yu
Yeah.
- [21:40]
Host
And maybe that makes it hard to realize that there's actually a range of support groups for, like, a lot of different things. And even if there isn't one for your particular issue, you could start a support group yourself. What do you think about that?
- [21:59]
Jason Yu
No, I definitely agree. It never dawned on me to go to a skin picking support group. And I think a piece of that is like, I didn't even know I could ask for help on this. Like, I didn't even know that this was something that could change or I could improve with. I sometimes give the example of thinking about, like, singing. I don't know yoe. Do you know how to sing at all?
- [22:23]
Host
I definitely don't.
- [22:25]
Jason Yu
Okay.
- [22:25]
Host
But I would love to hear you sing. Yeah, no, no, no, please. I'm very curious to hear where this is going.
- [22:31]
Jason Yu
Okay. Amazing. I used to be very ashamed of my singing voice, but my friend encouraged me to go take singing lessons as an adult. And I'm like, oh, everyone's bad at singing at the start, but with practice, you can actually get better. But for me, I had this idea of like, no, some people are just born that way, born with a good voice. It's like, well, that's actually not true. And you kind of need to, like, challenge that a little bit. So I think that's what I think about with mental health and this idea of, like, oh, I have an anxious personality, I get panic attacks. What can I say? But actually, if you understand your panic attack, if you can read the triggers, if you could think proactively of, like, monitoring your exercise and your blood sugar and blah, blah, blah, it's all boring stuff. It's not rocket science, but actually, it might help with your mental health. But there's almost this, like, reluctance. You're in denial. Right.
- [23:30]
Host
And also this kind of rigidity, like this assumption of. Rigidity of self.
- [23:34]
Jason Yu
Yeah.
- [23:36]
Host
So, Jason, I want to talk about the difference between talking about your skin picking with loved ones who don't pick their skin and then people in the support group. I want to talk about that difference. It's weird to me that the people closest to you who want the best for you, sometimes they cannot offer you the comfort that a stranger in a support group can.
- [24:06]
Jason Yu
Okay, that first hospital night when I was 19, that was when my parents first found out about my skin picking. And they found out because they drove, like, three hours in the middle of the night to, like, find me in a hospital. I didn't talk to my parents about that for eight years. Like, we never revisited that conversation. But how I finally started to have that conversation with my mom was actually that support group that I was in. And I wanted to, like, explain, and I wanted to, like, look, mom, look how much progress I've made. I want you to know how much I've grown. But I didn't have, like, the. The guts to, like, have that conversation with my mom just yet. Like, it was a little too emotional. So that's sort of how the podcast formed is. Me and Adele. We just recorded our conversations, and I sat down with my mom. It was, like, over Christmas time. I just, like, sat on the couch in my childhood home with my mom, and I'm just like, mom, there's something I want to show you. And I pressed play on the recording, and we listened to that hour long conversation. And at the end of that, I'm like, mom, do you have any questions? And I think that's sort of what broke the ice and started the conversation with my mom. And that kind of opened up the curiosity for her where she's like, oh, like, I now have permission to ask Jason about these things. So that was really powerful.
- [25:33]
Host
That's incredible.
- [25:35]
Jason Yu
One thing that I learned in that experience is that after I went to the hospital, my parents were really stressed, and they really blamed themselves. They were like, oh, my gosh, we failed Jason. We don't know how to help him. Apparently my mom saw a counselor. Like, which was crazy to me. She saw, yeah, like, this. This immigrant group and Communist China. Mom. She went to go see a counselor to be like, yeah, my son has this thing. Apparently, my mom read books about it, and she was trying to learn how to solve these things. And, like, I don't know, never really stumbled across anything or I don't know what it was, but she just never told me about. That was, like, only eight years later after all of this, she's like, oh, yeah, Jason, I was really worried about you. I felt like I failed you. I didn't know what I could do to help you, and I tried to learn, and I'm like, oh, my gosh.
- [26:33]
Host
Mom, how does that make you feel?
- [26:38]
Jason Yu
Yeah, just, like, such a complicated ball of emotions. Like, I'm so grateful to her and just how much she cares for me and loves me and wants to help me, but also, like, heartbroken. I. I can't imagine how lonely and scared she was feeling through all those years of not having an answer and, like, always worrying on the back of her head, what if Jason ends up in the hospital again? She doesn't know. Right? Like, it just came out of the blue. And coming back to your question about what. What makes it hard to have these conversations with our loved ones is I was putting so much pressure on myself to find an answer for her. I want to get better so that she doesn't have to worry about me.
- [27:25]
Host
Because you knew. You knew that she was worrying about you, even though she didn't tell you.
- [27:29]
Jason Yu
Totally.
- [27:30]
Host
Your mom needed a support group for mothers of people who pick their skin.
- [27:36]
Jason Yu
Yes.
- [27:38]
Host
Support groups. On support groups. On support groups.
- [27:41]
Jason Yu
Totally. Totally.
- [27:45]
Host
When we come back, Jason reveals everything you need to know about support groups before joining one yourself. From support group drama and etiquette to red flags to watch out for. Okay, I want you to just show us the world of support groups. I want you to hold our hands, walk us into the cavernous space, and point things out to us, because I think it can be a little mysterious and scary to people who've never been to one. So you started a support group with the two people you met at Starbucks, and you had to figure out how to start a support group that didn't already exist and how to bring more people in or. Which sounds like a lot of work, and it's very impressive. I imagine with Alcoholics Anonymous, there's, like, a guidebook for how to start your own chapter. But, like, when you all started your support group, how did you figure out how to set it up?
- [28:46]
Jason Yu
Hmm. I think most important, find a location. I remember after Starbucks, I went to the local library, and kind of my second person I ever talked to about my skin picking was this librarian. To be like, hi, I want to start this group about me picking My skin. Do you have a space for us? In a weird way, that felt very empowering to just be like, it's a shameful secret, but I'm going to tell you because I want your space.
- [29:17]
Host
Did the librarian say yes?
- [29:19]
Jason Yu
Yeah, she gave us a little study room space.
- [29:21]
Host
Oh, that's so nice.
- [29:23]
Jason Yu
So I will say I'm speaking to, like, a peer support group. There are, like, professionally facilitated support groups out there. You can maybe even ask local counseling clinics. Do you have a grief support group? Do you have a Crohn's support group? Do you have a fibromyalgia support group? There are ones that are professionally run out there. What I'll speak to is a more like grassroots approach of starting your own.
- [29:50]
Host
Do you have thoughts about professionally run support groups versus peer support groups?
- [29:56]
Jason Yu
It's sort of like dating, you know, you just kind of have to go to everyone and see what's the right fit for you.
- [30:04]
Host
So say you have options. Are there red flags to watch out for?
- [30:08]
Jason Yu
What might be a red flag for one person is actually a green flag for another person. A part of it is just like knowing yourself and knowing what you want. For me personally, I think a red flag is someone who, like, oversells the benefits of the support group. Like, it's like, oh, I can cure you if you come.
- [30:28]
Host
That seems wrong if they start trying to make you buy supplements. Yeah. Something to watch out for.
- [30:34]
Jason Yu
Yeah. So I think what's hard, though is that type of language of, hey, I can cure your hair pulling in six weeks. It works. And people go to that. And I think what's hard is the level of, like, desperation that people have sometimes when they're struggling with something. Right. Often make comparisons with the skin picking world and, like, the diet world and how they have, like, these fad diets. Right. If you just drink water in the morning and cut out lettuce or whatever, I don't know, then you can lose 30 pounds. And when people are desperate, that kind of language is like, yes, I just need one simple thing and it's going to work. And so within the skin picking world, there's a lot of emphasis on, like, finding the right lotion that'll magically cure you, finding the right band aid that'll magically cure you. Finding the right, like, fidget toy that'll magically cure you.
- [31:34]
Host
Finding the right, like, finding the right thing that you can buy to cure you totally.
- [31:38]
Jason Yu
Again, I don't know. Hopefully. I don't mean to sound judgmental towards that. And if that works for You. And that's what you're looking for. Great. It didn't work for me personally and that's not what I want from a support group. But I don't want to take away if that does help you, you know.
- [31:57]
Host
Okay, so it sounds like there are we just need to find the cure support groups and then there's what. What other kinds of support groups are there if you had to break down the major categories and like what they're suffering?
- [32:12]
Jason Yu
I'm not sure if this is exactly your question, but I find a really helpful framework for me to think about my kind of my skin picking journey is thinking about like the stages of grief. Are you familiar with these? So there's denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. And I can point to different parts of those emotions that I've been on in my journey. Right. And so the denial of my skin picking was, oh, this is not a problem. Other people have it worse. This doesn't actually impact my life that much. Versus the anger, the frustration. I hate that I do this. It's so unfair that I do this and other people don't do this. The bargaining is like, what lotion? Can I try therapy? Can I try, what diet do I need to go on? What can I do to make this go away? And then acceptance of, well, this is something that I have. It's kind of a bummer, but like, I'm not going to let it impact my life. So if I think about the five stages of grief with my skin picking journey and thinking about the different kinds of support groups that are out there, really just honoring that, the, like searching for the holy grail support group is maybe that's right for you. If you're in the bargaining stage of your journey and if you're bargaining with your skin picking and like eight other people are also similarly bargaining, it is actually helpful.
- [33:41]
Host
Right, right, right.
- [33:42]
Jason Yu
You're in that place where you're supporting each other, you're in a similar place on your journey and that's great. And I think also because that grief cycle isn't linear, we go through all five of those stages all of the time. I think it's really helpful to be like, when I'm in my bargaining phase and I listen to someone else and they're in their depression phase, or I listen to someone else and they're in anger and I listen to someone else in their denial, I'm like, oh yeah, I remember when I was in that place. Hey, like, I get it. And similarly, other people are doing that to me of like, Jason, it sounds like you're trying to look for the cure right now. Like, maybe you need to take a step back or something, right?
- [34:23]
Host
That is such a smart and helpful way of looking at it. No, it really is, because it's like, takes away the judgment, and it's okay to then hop to a different support group when you need a different kind of thing, maybe, and then you can always come back and that kind of fluidity. Because I think I was thinking about support groups in kind of like the Holy Grail way, but that's not what you're saying.
- [34:50]
Jason Yu
It's so complex. Right. Maybe a support group is the thing for you at that moment, but I don't think it's a cure. All right. Like, I think individual therapy, still very helpful. I think your friends who are not in support group, also very helpful. Your local pickleball tournament, also a weird support group. And so it's breaking out of that mentality of, oh, I just need to find the right doctor and they'll cure me. I need to find the right medication, and that'll cure me. Something that I learned once is there's no fix, but there's a lot of things that can help. So there's no one thing that'll fix you, but so many things will help you.
- [35:27]
Host
What have you found? Like, what are some of the things that help you?
- [35:31]
Jason Yu
Having a good diet reduces my skin picking because, like, you know, when I'm not just ordering takeout or, like, you know, eating toast for dinner all week, weirdly, that makes me sleep better. Weirdly, I'm more motivated. Weirdly, I'm exercising. Weird, you know, like, it's like, again, none of it's rocket science, but just I was in a mentality where I was so, like, all or nothing. Rigid thinking, oh, my gosh, doom and gloom. I'm ruined. Like, nothing will help. It's like, well, you know, that mentality. I needed to shift that to, like, actually, there are so many things that help a little tiny bit. But it's almost like if, you know, yow. Wei, you came to me. And she's like, jason, I want to be stronger. And I'm like, great. What have you tried to be stronger? And you're like, well, I don't get it. I. I tried so many things. I did one pushup. I did one sit up. I ran for one mile. I did two jumping jacks. Why am I not any stronger? And I'm like, well, like, you kind of are stronger in such, like, an infinitesimally small way. Like, One push up, you're not going to notice your strength increase. What you kind of need to do is 20 pushups for two weeks and then maybe you'll see an improvement. Right. And I think when I was trying to manage my own health by myself, I didn't have that patience. I'm like, I tried this, I tried this, I tried this, I tried this. Nothing worked. What the heck? I was just too, like, chaotic and too, like, doom and gloom.
- [37:04]
Host
How big is your support group that you run now?
- [37:08]
Jason Yu
So I would say on average about like six people come. I used to volunteer for another support group and we'd had like 40 people hop on a zoom call and we'd like, go into, like, different breakout rooms. And I've also had a support group where it was just like, just me and one other person. Sometimes no people show up. I've had the whole range.
- [37:31]
Host
And you meet how often?
- [37:33]
Jason Yu
I run a few different support groups, but I would say, oh, my gosh. Yeah, maybe once a month. I would say once a month. Wow.
- [37:40]
Host
How many support groups are you part of and how many support groups do you run?
- [37:44]
Jason Yu
Oh, my gosh. Let's see. One, two. I would say, like, five. I'm in five right now.
- [37:52]
Host
Wow. Okay, I'm gonna ask a question that I hope doesn't come off the wrong way.
- [37:58]
Jason Yu
Okay.
- [37:59]
Host
Do you have hobbies besides support groups? Are support groups like your lifestyle?
- [38:07]
Jason Yu
Oh, I love it. Yes, I do have other hobbies, but also. So some of the support groups are like work.
- [38:14]
Host
I remember you have time to go take lessons and sing.
- [38:19]
Jason Yu
You're.
- [38:19]
Host
You're killing it. Okay. For people who've never been to a support group, how do you make them feel comfortable and not feel shame?
- [38:29]
Jason Yu
I'm thinking about the main one that I facilitate and. And this was like a. Yeah, skin picking, hair pulling one. We kind of have like a set of community agreements, community guidelines. And if a new person wants to join, I'll email them those lists and we review them at the beginning. And it's stuff like. So this group meets virtually. So I say cameras are optional, they're encouraged. But if you're not feeling comfortable, you know, you can turn them off. There's no expectation to share. Like, you can just listen in, in the background, and that's totally okay too. One of these community agreements that I like is speak from your own experience. Like, use I statements. Don't try to, like, generalize. And as a part of that, it's. Your experience may be different. It might even be the opposite of someone else. But that's okay. Like, that doesn't invalidate somebody else's experience. I like that it could be like, oh, yeah, I picked my skin and my partner is so supportive of it. Great. That doesn't invalidate the fact that another person, they pick their skin and their partner, like, actively, like, bullies them about it. Another piece is not being too quick to jump to solutions. I think this is a very natural human tendency of like, oh, you're struggling with this. You should just try this one product that I bought. It worked great for me. I'm sure it's going to work great for you. Like, that's not a great vibe.
- [39:53]
Host
And why is it not a great vibe? I have done this to other people and also people have done it to me and it's annoying. But I haven't really, like, inspected why it's annoying. Mm.
- [40:06]
Jason Yu
I think sometimes what's hard is, like, we're not in a place to receive. I feel like maybe there's a little bit of stubbornness. Like, I think it is like, self pity or that victim mindset. I don't want to work on it. I just want to be angry about it. And I'm, like, stuck in the unfairness piece. So I think that's when people jump to solutions. It's like, minimizing the discomfort that I have. And sometimes when people give solutions, it's to soothe their discomfort. Like, they're really uncomfortable.
- [40:40]
Host
This is, like, so helpful. I've never heard a conversation about the emotional dynamics of support groups and why they work. So, like, say somebody is suffering alone with a problem right now. Like, they're listening to this podcast. They're struggling with a really hard thing that no one in their life can relate to. They're in the shame phase. If you could give, like, a pragmatic guide, what steps should they take to not suffer alone and to maybe join a support group?
- [41:09]
Jason Yu
Damn this question. I stumble over. It's hard. Not one thing's going to work again. Everyone's going to be different. Everyone's on their own journey. Things that I tell myself that are kind of helpful is this idea that people need to hear things. I think it's six times six different ways from six different people. So if I am just like the second person to tell you this one thing, maybe you hear this episode, you're not convinced yet. Okay, that's fine. Maybe I'm just like the third person to tell you about support groups. What's helpful for me is, like, that's still part of the journey and that'll get you one step closer to like the fourth person, the fifth person, the sixth person, where you're actually ready to be like, okay, I'm actually gonna go now. So sometimes it's just time, right? It's just. And I think that's what's helpful about the cultural awareness of just talking about mental health in general is just the more people are talking, the more people are sharing. Celebrities are saying they did this and they did this. And it's like a very passive accumulation of a motivation before finally I'm like, okay, I've heard enough people say it. I'm gonna go.
- [42:22]
Host
You heard it on Joe Rogan's podcast.
- [42:24]
Jason Yu
Yes.
- [42:26]
Host
Joe Rogan endorsed the support group. And then he went, just kidding. So I wanna talk about, like, once you're in a support group, do you have advice for how to act? Is there support group etiquette that people should know about, like, things people should do, things people should not do?
- [42:44]
Jason Yu
I think I've seen the whole range. People who like trauma dump the first sentence, they open their mouth. Hi, my name's Jason. I pick my skin. And Also, here's a 40 minute story about everything I've been through.
- [42:57]
Host
Oh, you're not supposed to do that again.
- [42:59]
Jason Yu
It depends. Some support groups are all about that. Other support groups are like, whoa, that's really intense. And there's like 10 people in the room and it's only an hour long meeting. Hey, I've talked a lot. I think you should go now.
- [43:11]
Host
Right, right.
- [43:12]
Jason Yu
You're not getting another real answer, but.
- [43:15]
Host
I'm getting another nuanced answer.
- [43:17]
Jason Yu
Yes, but I think one thing that I'll say is like, don't give up.
- [43:21]
Host
What do you mean by that? Give up on what?
- [43:24]
Jason Yu
Similar to dating. Give them a second date. You know, like, first date was bad. You didn't like the vibes. Okay. But you know what? You were nervous. They were nervous. Let's go for a second meeting.
- [43:38]
Host
Okay. So far we've just been like, rah, rah, rah, support groups. But I want to make sure we talk about what can go wrong in a support group. Have you ever experienced or witnessed anything that's gone wrong? Have you made mistakes?
- [43:54]
Jason Yu
Yeah, so much. There was this one time where this one person joined one of my groups and he felt quite like, distant. He was very much in the solution, giving, but he wasn't really like receiving support. I think he was trying to fix other people's problems. And I think it was like sort of killing the vibe within the group. And so as facilitator I emailed him after the fact to be like, oh, hey, I just wanted to like check in with you. Just feel like you're giving some solutions. And one of our community guidelines is that that can sometimes be minimizing. And I just wanted to check in with you about that. I offered to have a one on one call with him, but he responded in an email being like, I don't see anything wrong with that. Maybe that's a problem. Jason, you have like, you don't like receiving solutions. I don't know. He kind of made it about me.
- [44:46]
Host
Drama, drama.
- [44:47]
Jason Yu
And so he never came back, which I'm not surprised by. And when I think back to that experience, I questioned myself, was I right? Was I wrong? Should I have called him out? Should I have tried to give him that feedback? I don't know.
- [45:02]
Host
I mean the thing that I'm thinking about is not that, but just like support group drama. I bet there's a lot.
- [45:10]
Jason Yu
I bet that just.
- [45:11]
Host
Cause it's like with any group of people that is democratically governed and then you're talking about like really intense stuff. Like it seems like a huge responsibility for the moderators, for the people organizing. Yeah, people are sharing medical information, sensitive stories and information. Do you moderate that?
- [45:30]
Jason Yu
Yeah. I have the disclaimer up top, what is out of my scope and what I will not speak to. I won't speak to medication. You can share about your experiences. Like say you're on an antidepressant. You can talk about it and you can talk about like, should I be on it? Is it helping? Is it? But I get a little careful when people start saying, oh, you need to double your dose. And I'm like, maybe let's not talk about this. I think that's something that you need to talk about with your doctor.
- [45:58]
Host
I've also heard this critique of support groups that they can lead to people making whatever hard thing they're going through, their primary identity. Like that becomes your whole personality. What are your thoughts on that critique? Have you heard that before?
- [46:14]
Jason Yu
Yeah, I have heard it. A part of it is. Yeah. I can remember times where I could not shut up about it. Like all I could tell people about was my skin picking and skin picking this and skin picking that and oh, skin picking is related to capitalism and skin picking is related to like my Asian identity and skin pickings related, you know, and I did maybe have a victim mentality or I thought it's so unfair that I have to do this and other people don't. But I sort of needed to have that phase where I was obsessed about it. Like, that's still part of the journey.
- [46:49]
Host
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Another question. Are people ever too much in a support group?
- [46:57]
Jason Yu
Hmm.
- [46:57]
Host
Like, they ask other people for too much support.
- [47:01]
Jason Yu
Right. So something that I really appreciated about is, like, it's an intentional space and it's sort of like a carved out protected space. And what I mean by that is there's a start time. We're here to talk about it, but there's also a hard out time. And I try to like, protect that boundary to be like, hey, we agreed to meet for one hour once a month. And at the end of the hour, I just want to be respectful for everyone's time. I'm going to end the meeting just because a lot of people are like, maybe too nice. A lot of people are people pleasers, especially in the skin picking community. So they're too afraid to have those boundaries like that. So I kind of see it as my role. Yeah. As like the facilitator. To be like, hey, I just want to respect everyone's time. We agreed on an hour. If you do need more individual support or like, maybe you unlock something, that's kind of what individual therapists would be for.
- [48:00]
Host
Okay, last question. How are you doing today with skin picking?
- [48:06]
Jason Yu
I still pick my skin, but I'm kind of like, bored with it. I've kind of like talked about it so much. I don't know what else. There's more to say. It's just a part of my life. It's not that interesting to me anymore. Which again, is such a huge 180 from where I was a few years ago. But so I guess what I. When I pick my skin now, I use it as like, helpful information to like, tell me about what else is going on in my life. Sometimes I wake up in the middle of night and I'm picking my skin. But now I'm like, oh, yeah, Jason, you're picking your skin. Cause of the election last week. Of course you're, you know, like, it makes sense.
- [48:49]
Host
Oh my gosh. In that way, it's almost like a helpful barometer.
- [48:54]
Jason Yu
It's useful. Yeah.
- [48:55]
Host
Oh, it's so interesting. And also, you know what you said about being bored with it? That's like a really big sign of healing. Like when you get bored with the problem itself.
- [49:08]
Jason Yu
Well, I. It's like, ah. I'm kind of like I've processed it. Right.
- [49:12]
Host
Like, exactly.
- [49:13]
Jason Yu
I've gone through my journey where I had to obsess about it. Now I'm at this point where I can like put it in a box and just like leave it there.
- [49:24]
Host
Jason, it's so, so good to talk to you. I love the work that you're doing. I didn't tell you this earlier. Part of the point of this show is to like kind of create a mini support group for people so that they don't feel so alone with their niche emotional conundrum. And so that's one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you. You're like an actual expert at this thing. I'm just trying for the first time.
- [49:49]
Jason Yu
Oh, it was such a pleasure.
- [49:54]
Host
Thank you so much to Jason Yu. He's the co host of the Fidget podcast. We'll have that link in our show notes along with some mental health resources Jason recommends. And if any of you do end up looking for a support group that turns your hot chocolate into cold chocolate, here's one last note from Jason.
- [50:13]
Jason Yu
There's like a kind of a global trigger warning in a support group. You never know what's going to come out.
- [50:20]
Host
This episode was edited by John Delor, produced by me and mixed by Kyle Pulley. Proxy is also produced by Kim Nadervane, Petersa Anakatan Santana and Nick Leblanc. Our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. As always, our email isproxy the podmail.com you can follow us on Instagram ProxyPodcast and you can follow me Yoeshaw and you can sign up for a free newsletter by going to patreon.com ProxyPodcast Speaking of which, Proxy is an independent production if you haven't heard. If you want to support season one and believe in emotional investigative journalism, consider becoming a paying member of our Patreon. Just go to patreon.com proxy podcast. You'll get main feed episodes without ads as well as exclusive bonus episodes. This month we're debuting a new segment called Expert Feelings where I grill Jason with a speed round of hard hitting feelings. Questions like what is one hot take you have on emotions right now? And how would you moderate the support group that half of the country finds themselves forced to join post election?
- [51:29]
Jason Yu
Ugh. Like the conversation's never ending. We keep on having it, but we never get anywhere. It happens in these five minute increments where it's like, what were we supposed to get out of it? I don't know. Were you supposed to solve all of climate change in five minutes? No, of course not.
- [51:42]
Host
All right, take care of yourselves out there. Get yourself some hot chocolate and drink it right away.
- [51:57]
Chris Gethard
When you get the Planet Fitness Black Card, you can bring a friend anytime you work out. And now through March 13th, get your first month free when you join. You heard that right. Conquer the stair climber with your partner in climb, enjoy a post workout recovery session in the hydro massage and do it all again with access to any of our 2700 convenient locations. So you coming? Get your first month free and all the perks with the Pfizer Black card for just $1 down $24.99 a month. Cancel anytime. Deal ends March 13th. See Club for details.
- [52:26]
Narrator
Hi, I'm Chris Gethard and I'm very excited to tell you about Beautiful Anonymous, a podcast where I talk to random people on the phone. I tweet out a phone number. Thousands of people try to call you. Talk to one of them. They stay anonymous. I can't hang up. That's all the rules. I never know what's going to happen. We get serious ones. I've talked with meth dealers on their way to prison. I've talked to people who survived mass shootings. Crazy funny ones. I talked to a guy with a goose laugh, somebody who dresses up as a pirate on the weekends. I never know what's going to happen. It's a great show. Subscribe today. Beautiful Anonymous Radiotopia.
- [53:00]
Jason Yu
From PRX.