← Proxy with Yowei Shaw
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- [00:00]
Yowei Shah
Hey everybody, it's Yowei. In our last episode, Zakiyah used to be so fun. Zakiya said this thing I couldn't get out of my mind. So after lockdown and a traumatic 2023, Zakiya was exhausted and she didn't feel like her usual extroverted open self. And she took a self compassion workshop where she learned to slow down and pay attention to what was going on inside to ask what her body needs in the moment. So she did, but quickly found herself in a loop.
- [00:37]
Zakiya Gibbons
So I feel like I, you know, ask like what do I need right now? And then I'm like, I need to cancel plans, turn on the TV and watch Housewives. I actually did need to do a lot of nothing cause 2023 was nonstop mayhem. And then I feel like I kept choosing that like what do I need right now? And I'm like, I need to not do anything I need not do. And so then I got confused cause I'm like, well I'm listening to my body, My body is saying I'm tired and I want to watch tv. So then I would do that. But then I'm like, but that also doesn't feel like what I need right now. So how do I know what I need right now?
- [01:11]
Yowei Shah
How do you know what you actually need? Should you always listen to your body? What is intuition anyway? That's what today's story is all about. It comes from our friends at the Science of happiness, a podcast where UC Berkeley psychologist Dr. Dacher Keltner invites a guest to try a research backed practice that boosts emotional well being, reduces stress, improves relationships. In today's episode, Zakiyah learns about the science of intuition. Didn't know that was a thing. And how to figure out what she actually needs. Hope you enjoy.
- [01:56]
Zakiya Gibbons
I used to really love myself. I loved my personality, I loved my friends, I loved everything about my life. My energy, my intuition, how I move in the world, the choices I make. My life felt very vibrant and full. I just felt like I had a light within me that I carried around. And then around Covid it felt like that light was smiling. And I'm like, well, I don't know if that light will ever turn on again. I think I was just in survival mode. And so I wasn't going off of what feels right. It was just like, okay, what will make me money? How can I stay safe? How can I keep my community safe? I just went to completely being fear based and anxiety driven and scarcity driven to the point where, yeah, I didn't really recognize myself.
- [02:52]
Dacher Keltner
Welcome to the Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher Keltner. We make decisions all day, every day. Some are small, like what to eat for breakfast or what floss to buy to keep your teeth healthy. Then there are choices that quietly steer our life's direction. So what tools are at our disposal to help navigate those decisions? Intuition is one, and it's a lot less mysterious than we may think. Neuroscience is revealing that intuition is real, the unconscious mind, or what Nobel prize winner Danny Kahneman called System 1. Thought is our brain's fast, automatic and intuitive way of processing information without conscious effort. Award winning journalist, producer and storyteller Zakiya Gibbons tapped into her intuition by trying some practices to develop and strengthen it.
- [03:44]
Zakiya Gibbons
Before, I would try to problem solve or remedy the situation or act out of pure emotion, and that's rarely helpful in the long run.
- [03:56]
Joel Pearson
Intuition is a response to the environment, and so your brain is always recalibrating intuition as the environmental things change.
- [04:04]
Dacher Keltner
That's neuroscientist Joel Pearson.
- [04:06]
Joel Pearson
Those things turn out to be pretty important once you understand what intuition is and what it's not.
- [04:12]
Dacher Keltner
We also hear from him about his lab's research on intuition. Stay with us.
- [04:23]
Shuka Kalantari
Hey, everybody, this is Shuka Kalantari. Tomorrow we're sharing a bonus episode by our friends at Proxy, a podcast hosted by Yowei Shah, where guests are paired with someone uniquely suited to help them unpack a problem. You'll hear from the same Zakiyah we're talking with today on Science of Happiness and it connects beautifully to her journey of learning to trust her own intuition. Enjoy today's show.
- [04:49]
Dacher Keltner
Welcome back to the Science of Happiness. I'm Dacher Keltner. Today we're demystifying intuition with real tools that neuroscientists can measure and define. Brooklyn based Zakiya Gibbons has been practicing steps to strengthen her own intuition and she's here today to share her experience. Zakiyah, thanks so much for being on the show.
- [05:11]
Zakiya Gibbons
Oh, thank you for having me.
- [05:13]
Akhil
Talk a bit about sort of a transformation you've been going through. You've told our producers before the pandemic really extroverted social like everywhere. And then you, you know the pandemic had a big effect on you.
- [05:26]
Zakiya Gibbons
Yes.
- [05:27]
Akhil
I'm really curious and you know, you talked about this Akhil, like the challenge of intuition is to kind of let what you learn, the wisdom of your feelings and sensations, help you make positive decisions. Reframing what we all have been going through out of COVID and you've talked about what lessons did you learn about yourself and identity?
- [05:47]
Zakiya Gibbons
I felt like a personality shift. I just wasn't as gregarious as outgoing. I felt like I lost my social skills. And that's something I used to really enjoy. And I just felt like a lot of what made me me was gone. And so that made me feel broken. And then starting in 2023, just one bad thing after the other kept happening. Like, my mom was in the hospital, I was working with some people who were racist. There's no, I don't want to pussyfoot around it. I don't want to sugarcoat. I was just in a constant state of being in the red. And I think that just like made me disconnected. I wasn't like thinking straight. I didn't even realize how disconnected I was from myself because I was so disconnected. You know what I mean?
- [06:40]
Akhil
One of the things I noted about coming out of COVID for me, everything was so disrupted. Working online, teaching online zoom. Downtowns of cities became vacant, you know, and then we felt alone. And we know from a Lancet article, 25, 30% rise in depression, anxiety worldwide. It's harder to make decisions sometimes, you know, or harder to trust my intuition.
- [07:06]
Dacher Keltner
I think that part of the disruption.
- [07:08]
Akhil
Of our times, not only Covid, but this political moment and all the hatred in the air, is that it puts us into this weird social life where our intuition is really compromised and disrupted. And it's so timely. You turn to this work by Joel Pearson, a scientist on cultivating intuition.
- [07:27]
Dacher Keltner
Walk us through this practice, Zakiya, of.
- [07:29]
Akhil
Cultivating the intuition and what it was like for you.
- [07:32]
Zakiya Gibbons
This was really helpful because I used to think of myself, and I still do as an intuitive person. But being more mindful and intentional with doing an intuitive practice made me realize, oh, this is kind of like a muscle. And I haven't exercised this muscle in a while and I know it like somatically. But to put it into words, I'm like, what actually is intuition? How would you define intuition? Before I would try to problem solve or remedy the situation, or I would just act out of pure emotion. And that's rarely helpful in the long run. And so, you know, with this intuitive practice, okay, how are you feeling right now? And it's hard to use intuition when you're in such a hyper dysregulated space where you can't even see straight. So that's just the first step is calming down and then try to do what you can to get more regulated. And that looks different for everybody. For me, I like Screaming into pillows. I like going on walks and being outside. And I love venting. Just like getting it out. Whether that's journaling or I am the queen of voice notes. And then usually that makes me feel more regulated just externalizing those feelings and thoughts.
- [08:56]
Akhil
Were there specific feelings that you became aware of in this practice of intuition, impulses and addiction?
- [09:02]
Zakiya Gibbons
This one really resonated with me. Cause during COVID I was doing a lot of couch rotting, just like hitting the bong, watching tv. Cause that was all there was to do. Post lockdown. I kept up the habit of smoking every day to the point where I'm like, oh, this is actually making me anxious. This isn't fun. I had conflated my impulse with what felt right for me.
- [09:30]
Akhil
It sounds like the practice sort of helped you focus on the ethical principles you really care about.
- [09:34]
Zakiya Gibbons
Yes.
- [09:35]
Akhil
How else did it affect your decision making?
- [09:40]
Zakiya Gibbons
It taught me to just really slow down and to even experiment with, okay, what if I don't do this thing that I'm really feeling pulled towards? And it cleared out a lot of stuff in my life that was actively keeping me triggered and then actively, honestly keeping me in a state of red to yellow. I've been taking a break from dating and even just like scrolling on the apps. Sometimes I'd just be bored and like, the impulse is grab my phone and then scroll on the apps. And then it would make me misanthropic. I'm not that type of person.
- [10:12]
Dacher Keltner
But I'm just designed to do that.
- [10:14]
Zakiya Gibbons
Exactly. And so I was just like, even though it's my impulse to pick up my phone and scroll down, I'm rationalizing. I'm like, well, you know, being in a relationship sounds nice. I'm like, okay, I'm being self aware, I'm doing the right things. But it felt shitty in my body. And then I realized, oh, this is an impulse. But my intuition is saying rest and.
- [10:34]
Dacher Keltner
It also tells us what not to do.
- [10:35]
Zakiya Gibbons
Yes, exactly. I'm glad you said that because I think I was always thinking of intuition as, okay, strong feeling in my body that tells me to do something.
- [10:45]
Akhil
Yeah. My final question for you, Zakiya, and this is a conversation for the ages. I think a lot of people coming out of COVID and during these hard times and white supremacy's rising and authoritarianism, and we're worried about so many things. And you've really highlighted some deep lessons from this intuition practice. Given your experience with this practice, what's your offering to our listeners in terms of the strength of their intuition? And how to cultivate it.
- [11:15]
Zakiya Gibbons
Being still with myself has been really helpful. And I feel like my life is usually very noisy. Whether it was like, you know, before, I'm out on East Street, I'm in New York. It's a noisy city, and I'm social. I'm doing this. And when I'm at home, I'm watching, you know, these loud, obnoxious reality shows. And I really. Sometimes I would have the impulse to turn on the TV or something, but then there'd be these moments where I guess it was an intuition that I was just like, just put it on mute. Turn it off. I love colored lights. I have this light bulb, and you can change the color. And so sometimes I would just bask in this, like, soft, peachy pink light and just sit there just in silence. And this. That gave me the peace that I was hoping the weed would give me or the TV would give me or whatever. And that feeling of connection that I used to feel when I was out about in the streets talking to people like, oh, I still feel that same vibration in my core when I'm just still with myself. And then it made me realize, like, oh, I still love who I am. I still love the thoughts I have and the ideas I have and the feelings I have. And in the midst of all of this chaos, I think it's important to not fully retreat. Community is important, and being active in one's community is important, but just sitting with myself and being quiet and in tune with no goal, but just sitting and being has been helpful.
- [12:54]
Akhil
Zakiya Gibbons, thank you for being on our show. It's been a really important conversation for us all to be thinking about in terms of using our intuition to find reconnection to the self.
- [13:04]
Dacher Keltner
Thank you.
- [13:04]
Zakiya Gibbons
Thank you so much for having me and for your wonderful questions and conversation. I really appreciate it.
- [13:12]
Dacher Keltner
Neuroscientist and author Joel Pearson established the steps that Zakiyah tried to practice. Intuition.
- [13:18]
Joel Pearson
Your body responds to things you have no idea are happening. Learning to feel and notice those bodily responses is literally a way to tap into unconscious information.
- [13:29]
Dacher Keltner
More after this break.
- [13:36]
Shuka Kalantari
Hi, Shuka. Here, just a reminder that you can hear more about Zakiyah's internal work as she continues to find her new normal. From our friends at the podcast Proxy, she'll be speaking with psychologist and professor Dr. Bill Chopik, who shares research on how our personalities change over time. That's coming up tomorrow on the Science of Happiness.
- [13:59]
Dacher Keltner
Welcome back to the Science of Happiness. Neuroscientist Joel Pearson says our brains make Decisions by accumulating evidence.
- [14:07]
Joel Pearson
That evidence can be conscious, it can be unconscious. It can be both. Intuition involves getting unconscious information in your brain or in your body and seeing how that can help you make better decisions.
- [14:18]
Dacher Keltner
Joel's lab studies how unconscious information influences our decisions by measuring how our bodies react.
- [14:25]
Joel Pearson
So we had cool ways of doing that with visual illusions. In particular one called binocular rivalry, which lets us present an image to one eye and then a bright flashy image to the other eye. And whatever you present, the sort of the stationary image gets rendered unconscious so people never see it.
- [14:43]
Dacher Keltner
Using binocular rivalry, his lab showed scary images of spiders and snakes, shark attacks, or nice things like flowers and puppy dogs.
- [14:54]
Joel Pearson
We can see the visual cortex is still processing them. We can see the activity in the limbic system, and the amygdala goes up. So they're clearly still being processed, even if you have no idea I'm presenting them to you. At the same time, we know that there are also pathways which go from these early levels of visual cortex straight to the emotional parts of the brain.
- [15:14]
Dacher Keltner
Emotion will trigger a shortcut to decision making because our brains have evolved to keep us alive rather than give us an accurate representation of reality.
- [15:24]
Joel Pearson
When something big comes up, a new job, or move countries, or buying, selling a house, or start a new relationship, leave a relationship, they start talking about, oh, my gut's telling me this because the emotions come up. But if you're not practiced the understanding and feeling intuition, tapping into it, when to use it, when not to use it, this can really lead you astray. There are situations where people could have childhood trauma and that could be triggered by someone they meet on the street, for example, and that's not intuition.
- [15:54]
Dacher Keltner
We're also not great at taking into account probability.
- [15:58]
Joel Pearson
There's a ton of research from psychology that how bad we are at understanding probabilities. Our brains don't experience probabilities and numbers in the same way we experience other things. So we're just really bad at it.
- [16:11]
Dacher Keltner
And biases will bubble up, driving decisions that influence what we eat, what we do.
- [16:17]
Joel Pearson
And this also is a huge part of advertising. And you can think about all the cognitive nudges. You walk into a shop, into a supermarket, there's decisions you are making, you're not even aware of, which things you might just grab. So you need to be careful because if you've trained it in an out of date or biased situation, that will come through into your intuition. But still, we never want to throw emotion out the window. We want to integrate emotion with decision making, the key is to have a framework and strategy and learn better ways of doing that. If you are in an emotional state, you want to be able to realize that, and that's using sort of parts of emotional intelligence, emotional awareness. And you want to do something, maybe box breathing or meditation or something to bring yourself back to a baseline before you're going to trust your intuition.
- [17:05]
Dacher Keltner
Intuition is also dynamic recalibrating as environmental conditions change.
- [17:10]
Joel Pearson
The powerhouse or the engine behind intuition is associative learning. So when you learn something, the place you're in is imprinted in that learning. So literally, the room and the space that you learn something in is part of that memory and not just the physical space, but the internal state. If you're intoxicated, highly caffeinated.
- [17:37]
Dacher Keltner
There is one tool we all have, access to our unconscious.
- [17:42]
Joel Pearson
Using your body or interoception to tap into these levels of the unconscious is a nice way to utilize that information. And that's a really nice way of thinking about intuition. This is my sort of more practical, scientific definition of tapping into your body to access unconscious information.
- [18:00]
Dacher Keltner
Since we know that our bodies will.
- [18:01]
Akhil
Respond to unconscious information, we need to notice what they're experiencing, which is the.
- [18:08]
Joel Pearson
Internal perceptual state of our body. Right. So am I cold? Am I hungry? Do I need to go to the bathroom? If you sit really still, can you feel your heartbeat? Can you tap out with a finger? You know, each beat of your heart? It's literally just where you embody that, where your body responds to the unconscious information in your brain. Some people will feel it in the chest, some people feel it in their fingertips. They might get sweaty palms and just feel tingly and a bit uncomfortable. So it is different in different people, but generally it's in the upper body. Somewhere from the hands, chest or gut area are the three most common ones. So it's learning to tap into that, to notice where that might be coming from and learn when you can rely on those feelings and when you can't.
- [18:57]
Dacher Keltner
What is it about music that connects us so deeply? We dive into that question with the legendary former frontman of Talking Heads, David Byrne.
- [19:05]
Joel Pearson
We're not just individuals. Our identity, who we are as entities and people, is intimately tied up with other people.
- [19:15]
Dacher Keltner
Next time on the Science of Happiness. Thanks to our associate producers, Emily Brower.
- [19:25]
Akhil
And Dasha Zarboni, our producer Truk Quinn, our sound designer, Jenny Cataldo of Accompany Studios, and our executive producer, Shuka Kalantari. I'm Dacher Keltner.
- [19:36]
Dacher Keltner
Have a great day.