The Utility of Self-Delusion (and Big Show Update)

Summary

Proxy with Yowei Shaw – Episode Summary: "The Utility of Self-Delusion (and Big Show Update)"

Release Date: March 19, 2025

In this compelling episode of Proxy, host Yowei Shaw delves into both significant podcasting news and a profound exploration of self-delusion's role in personal and professional success. The episode balances exciting announcements with introspective discussions, providing listeners with valuable insights and a glimpse into the podcast's future.

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1. Exciting News: Joining Radiotopia (00:06 - 02:00)

Yowei Shaw opens the episode with thrilling news about Proxy joining the esteemed podcast network, Radiotopia. Radiotopia is renowned in the indie podcasting world, home to beloved shows like Normal Gossip, Song Exploder, and Ear Hustle. Shaw expresses her excitement about the support Radiotopia will provide, including marketing, ad sales, and technical assistance, while maintaining the show's independence and ownership.

Notable Quote:

"Radiotopia is the kind of place that does not ask for your IP. I still own my show, and Radiotopia is going to give Proxy all kinds of marketing, ad sales, and technical support." (00:45)

Despite the positive news, Shaw conveys an emotional conundrum regarding the podcast’s sustainability. She highlights the ambitious listener goals needed to cover production costs, sparking a deeper conversation about optimism and realism in the face of challenges.

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2. Emotional Conundrum: Navigating Sustainability (02:00 - 05:40)

Shaw reveals the daunting metrics required for Proxy to be financially sustainable, estimating the need for approximately 300,000 listeners per episode within the first month to generate sufficient ad revenue. This revelation leads her to question her optimism, especially amid industry uncertainties like layoffs and debates over the podcasting medium's viability.

To address these feelings, Shaw introduces the concept of self-delusion by referencing the book Useful Delusions by Shankar Vedantam. She explains how positive illusions can be beneficial, citing research that suggests a degree of self-delusion can enhance motivation, goal-setting, and even longevity in challenging circumstances.

Notable Quote:

"Studies have even found that your odds of surviving cancer longer are greater when you're delusionally optimistic." (04:30)

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3. The Role of Self-Delusion in Success (05:40 - 15:24)

Shaw transitions into a discussion with her dedicated team members—Nick LeBlanc, Kim Naderfan Peterse, and Anakaren Santana—to gauge their confidence in Proxy's success. Using a 0 to 10 scale, she seeks honest assessments of their optimism regarding the podcast's future.

Team Members' Insights:

• Nick LeBlanc (05:41 - 10:02): Initially rates his confidence at a 7 or 8, expressing optimism despite limited podcasting experience. After prompting, he elevates his confidence to an 8 or 9, signaling stronger belief in the show's potential.

  Quote:

  "I feel like it's like, it's got at least some kick to it, you know?" (06:30)

• Kim Naderfan Peterse (05:48 - 11:19): Initially hesitant, Kim articulates the financial goals needed for sustainability, such as attaining 1,700 Patreon members—currently at 330. Upon reflection, she confidently rates her belief in the podcast's success at a 10, reassured by the team's commitment and potential revenue streams.

  Quote:

  "I think that within a year, Yowei, you'll be able to pay yourself full time." (08:34)

• Anakaren Santana (05:51 - 15:24): Anakaren shares her shift from an 8 to potentially a 9, emphasizing the collective belief in the show's viability and the dedicated effort of the team.

  Quote:

  "I definitely feel like that 8 is very solid and maybe even should be a 9." (10:13)

These conversations underscore the importance of mutual support and shared optimism, reinforcing the idea that collective self-belief can drive a project's success.

Notable Quote:

"We are here because we believe that we're making something that should exist, that can exist. We're here because we believe in you." (12:32)

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4. Reflections on Self-Delusion and Collective Belief (15:24 - 16:02)

Shaw reflects on the team's feedback, expressing profound emotion and gratitude. She acknowledges that while maintaining a 10 on the confidence scale is challenging, the collective support from her team and Patreon subscribers transforms what might be seen as delusion into a benevolent self-deception or a shared dream.

She draws parallels to union organizing, where initial beliefs in collective power are essential for actualizing significant change. This metaphor illustrates how initial optimism, even bordering on delusion, can create the foundation for tangible success.

Notable Quote:

"Let's call it a dream. Thank you to everyone listening for believing in the dream of Proxy." (16:02)

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5. Looking Ahead: Future Plans and Community Engagement (16:02 - End)

As the episode concludes, Shaw outlines plans to reassess the podcast's progress at the end of the year, setting a narrative cliffhanger that invites listeners to stay engaged. She emphasizes the continued importance of Patreon supporters and Radiotopia's role in the podcast's journey.

Listeners are encouraged to participate in the conversation about optimism and self-belief by sharing where they stand on the 0 to 10 confidence scale, fostering a sense of community and shared purpose.

Closing Quote:

"See you in a month." (16:02)

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Key Takeaways:

• Proxy's affiliation with Radiotopia marks a significant milestone, enhancing the podcast’s resources and reach while maintaining its independent spirit.
• Self-delusion, or maintaining an optimistic outlook beyond immediate realities, can be a powerful tool for achieving long-term goals and overcoming challenges.
• The unwavering support and confidence of the Proxy team exemplify how collective belief can transform individual aspirations into shared success.
• Engaging with the community and fostering a supportive network are crucial elements in sustaining and growing an independent podcast.

This episode of Proxy not only updates listeners on important developments but also provides a thoughtful examination of the psychological strategies that underpin perseverance and success in creative endeavors.

Transcript

[Yowei Shaw]

Hey, everybody, it's Yowei. Welcome to Proxy. Today's episode is going to be a shorty. I have a big show announcement, and then I'm going to talk about an emotional conundrum that is attached to this news. A conundrum that probably everyone deals with at some point. Okay, good news first. If you've been following along with the meta arc of this podcast, you know that I got laid off from npr, that I started this podcast, and that we've been publishing these early episodes independently with no promo, no funding, no marketing, and that we're officially launching on April 22 with new episodes every other Tuesday. Well, listener, she has an update. I am very excited to share that Proxy is now a proud member of Radiotopia from prx. Can we get some air horns? Radiotopia is the legendary indie label of the podcast world. It's the home of some of my favorite shows like Normal Gossip, Song Exploder, Ear Hustle, Articles of Interest, and more. And here's what's great. Radiotopia is the kind of place that does not ask for your ip. I still own my show, and Radiotopia is going to give Proxy all kinds of marketing, ad sales, and technical support. As someone who is googling what is an RSS feed the night before I published my trailer last year, this is huge. But I want to make sure this is crystal clear. Proxy is still an independent show. Radiotopia is not giving Proxy any money. We still have to pay for our own production costs. So all the early adopters supporting us on Patreon, you are still such an incredibly important part of the show's success. Thank you so much. Can we get some applause now for my emotional conundrum? So I was bathing in this Radiotopia news, feeling myself, and. And then I crunched the numbers and saw how far we still have to go for Proxy to be sustainable. Last I checked, a podcast like Proxy needs something like 300,000 listeners per episode within the first month to make enough money on ads to support production, which is really ambitious for a new show to the point of making me feel delusional. Like, am I being totally unrealistic thinking I can launch an independent podcast today when every other week I hear about more layoffs in my industry or see some article titled Is Podcasting Dead? So I do what I do when I come up against an emotional conundrum. I decided to report on my feelings and I came across a book called Useful Delusions and learned that according to a whole movement of psychologists, being delusional is actually A necessary ingredient for mental health and an important tool for succeeding in a variety of situations. Here are a few things I learned from the book, which was written by the host of Hidden Brain, Shankar Vedantam. In the book, Shankar talks about how we tend to think of self delusion as a bad thing. Like, isn't the goal to see reality and ourselves clearly? Don't we live in a world flooded with enough conspiracy theories, lies, and scams? But in the 1980s, a group of psychologists started conducting studies that found that some degree of self delusion was useful. UCLA psychologist Shelly Taylor and her colleague Jonathan Brown did a survey looking at existing research in personality, social, developmental, and clinical psychology. And they concluded that, quote, normal individuals possess unrealistically positive views of themselves, an exaggerated belief in their ability to control their environment, and a view of the future that maintains that their future will be far better than the average person's. Furthermore, individuals who are moderately depressed or low in self esteem consistently display an absence of such enhancing delusions. Studies have found that positive illusions can lead to higher income, higher motivation to work, more goal seeking, more pragmatic action, more daily planning, and less fatalism. Studies have found that people perform better if they see their goals are attainable rather than being beyond reach. Studies have even found that your odds of surviving cancer longer are greater when you're delusionally optimistic. Which brings me to part two of my research. I'm the only person working full time on proxy right now, but I work with a crew of extremely talented and smart people, and I wanted to talk to my teammates and see where they're at. Do they think I'm delusional? What do they think about the show's chances of success? Okay, so why don't we just go around and say who you are?

[Nick LeBlanc]

I'm Nick LeBlanc. I am a production fellow. I specialize in research for the podcast.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

I am Kim Naderfan Peterse, and I produce and report.

[Anakaren Santana]

Yeah, I'm Anakaren Santana. I've helped the show with various things, but increasingly focused on helping us develop best safety practices since we're dealing with emotionally complicated subjects.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, I have a question for everybody, and I want you to be honest. Like, truly be honest.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

Dangerous to be honest.

[Yowei Shaw]

So my question is, on a scale of 0 to 10, 0 being absolutely no confidence, I hope Yoa has already started working on her plan B to 10 being duh. Proxy will be a hit. Why isn't Yoe already ordered merch? Where are you guys?

[Nick LeBlanc]

Okay, maybe it's just because I am equally or maybe even more so, as delusional as you are, yoa. But I'm like, I'm fully, like, seven or eight. Like, honestly, like, I don't know, I'm pretty optimistic that, like, Proxy will have at least some kind of future. There's going to be some kind of audience, and it's going to have, like, some kind of lifespan. Maybe it won't be a super long one, but, like, I feel like it's like, it's got at least some kick to it, you know?

[Yowei Shaw]

I want to challenge you, Nick, because you used the word some so much. Is it really a 7 or 8? Because that doesn't sound like some.

[Nick LeBlanc]

Well, here's the. Here's the issue. I am very new to podcasting, and I'm not entirely sure what, like, successful even counts as, so I'm kind of hedging my bets here.

[Yowei Shaw]

All right. Nick LeBlanc has spoken. Kim?

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

Yes.

[Yowei Shaw]

Where are you?

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

I'm. I'm. Oh, before. Okay, before I say a number, I don't know why I'm so scared. Before I say a number, can I ask, do you know what the budget is? How much money are you trying to make?

[Yowei Shaw]

Um, so the way that I've calculated this is it really comes down to Patreon members.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

Okay.

[Yowei Shaw]

We need around 1700 Patreon members.

[Nick LeBlanc]

And where are we at right now?

[Yowei Shaw]

We are around 330.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

And how many do we need to, like, have a team so you don't go absolutely bonkers?

[Yowei Shaw]

If we have another full time person, then we need around 3,700 subscribers.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

Okay. Okay. And does that also account for any ad revenue?

[Yowei Shaw]

No, this is. This is purely Patreon members.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

Okay. Okay. Honestly, I'm like a 10. I know, I know, I know.

[Yowei Shaw]

That's.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

That's why I needed to do my due diligence. I know, because I sound a little insane.

[Nick LeBlanc]

I was worried you were going to go super low.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

Well, I didn't want to sound like I was going to say something totally crazy, because I know it sounds kind of insane.

[Yowei Shaw]

Well, wait, okay, so explain.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

The 10 I bet will be somewhere between 1 to 2000 by the end of the year. And then when you add on to that ad dollars, you know, like, sponsorships, which will all become more valuable as we gain listeners. And then that doesn't even include, like, grants and foundations, which, you know, will also become easier, just, like, spend more time pursuing them. So I think that within a year, Yowei, you'll be able to pay yourself full time. And I think that within two to Three years, you'll be able to hire maybe like a full time and a part time person. That's my bet.

[Nick LeBlanc]

I am nowhere near as experienced in the industry, but like going off of what I've heard so far and just general vibes, that was about what I had in mind for like, this kind of progression with the podcast.

[Yowei Shaw]

Wait, so Nick, does that mean you're going up at all in the scale or are you still a seven?

[Nick LeBlanc]

Bruce, sit up. We'll go eight or nine.

[Yowei Shaw]

Woo. Holy shit. Wow.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

A lot of Karen nods on you.

[Anakaren Santana]

Well, even before the conversation that's being had here, I was at a solid eight.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

Yeah.

[Anakaren Santana]

The show has a fair chance to be very successful. I was a little afraid before the conversation happened that people would have lower numbers or give a piece of data that made me feel like, oh, well, maybe it's not realistic, but after this conversation, I definitely feel like that 8 is very solid and maybe even should be a 9. The show will succeed.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

Yowei, how do you feel?

[Yowei Shaw]

I'm really surprised by how high these numbers are. I love it. I mean, I'm getting emotional. Who would have thought?

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

Why does it make you emotional?

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah, I mean, even though you guys could be pulling my leg and there are a lot of power dynamics and variables here, I honestly haven't had an honest conversation about this before. So I'm very curious what it's been like for you all on the other side of this delusion. Like, where do you all think I am on the scale?

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

I'm excited to just do like kind of an intuitive assessment and I'm just curious if you think I'm right. I peg you at a six, but that you want to present as an eight.

[Yowei Shaw]

You know, that feels right.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

Yes.

[Yowei Shaw]

That feels really, really accurate.

[Nick LeBlanc]

That seems really spot on. Yeah.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

I felt like a magician and just like the number six just like emerged in my mind and I couldn't shake it.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah. Because I've basically been trying to get to a 10 every day to be able to do the work. You know, even when I feel like a three or a five or a six, I've just been trying to perform this magic trick on myself every day. And I think that I have this unspoken agreement with the people in my life. Well, at least the people that are still in my life who I've deemed safe to be around during this period. Yeah. Somehow people got the memo that they also need to participate in this delusion with me and be at a 10.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

I think it makes sense that you would be anxious and like fearful Because I think those are also really valuable emotions. You know, I imagine that the fear and the anxiety is also part of what then drives you to, like, do more and call more people and read more weird business books, you know, and feel like you're doing absolutely everything you can to ensure that it doesn't fail. And I think all of our numbers make sense because you've also pre selected people who are here because they believe in the show. I would be really surprised if any of us were a 2 or a 3, because we wouldn't be here. Right. We're here because we believe that we're making something that should exist, that can exist. We're here because we believe in you. And I think we also have all made a calculated risk where it's like, obviously it would be wonderful if the show succeeds, but even if it doesn't, like, I will be incredibly, incredibly grateful and satisfied with the time that I have spent.

[Nick LeBlanc]

That was very well put, Kim. I agree 100%.

[Anakaren Santana]

100%. Same for me.

[Yowei Shaw]

Like, yeah, this is like the nicest pep talk. I really, truly did not mean for the conversation to go here. I was just like, I need something for the announcement episode.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

I also, I imagine that part of how self delusions work and just delusions in general is that they get bolstered by other people.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yes.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

And so, yeah, like, does it actually become maybe less delusional if other people agree with you? Does it feel like maybe you're actually being more realistic if there's a bunch of other people around you saying, like, yeah, like, that. That sounds right.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah. This is making me think of this episode I reported a while ago about union organizing and, like, the magic trick you have to do as an organizer, which is, like, getting people to believe that they have power even though individually they do not have enough power to take on their boss individually. But together, if they have enough numbers, they do. And so there's like, this gap between the fantasy and the reality that you have to bridge of. Like, well, so we need to, like, get you. I mean, to essentially delude yourself into thinking that you have power to do the work of organizing so that you do have the numbers and the strategy and you've done all the work to, like, get where you want.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

Yeah. It needs to start as a delusion because it doesn't exist yet. Yeah. But then without the delusion, like, it kind of never will exist. So it's critical.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, well, on that note, we should check in at the end of the year.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

Cool.

[Nick LeBlanc]

We should.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah, we should just mark our calendars. I'm going to send a meeting invite at the end of this year. We're going to get together and see.

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

Where we are one year from launch.

[Yowei Shaw]

How is that for a narrative cliffhanger?

[Kim Naderfan Peterse]

Sick. Are we still around? Is that the end of season one? Goodbye.

[Yowei Shaw]

After talking to my teammates, I did feel less delusional. And I gotta say to my Patreon subscribers who've been supporting the show, thank you for sharing in the delusion as well for making this show feel more real. Actually, let's stop calling it a delusion. Let's call it a benevolent self deception. No? Okay, let's call it a dream. Thank you to everyone listening for believing in the dream of Proxy. And thank you to Radiotopia for believing in it too. I am so happy to be part of the network. Cheers to self delusion. Can we get some more air horns? Praxi is produced by Kim Nadervane Peterse Ana Karen Santana, Nick LeBlanc and me, Yowei Shaw. We are edited by John Delor and Tim Howard. Our mixing engineer is Kyle Pulley. Music in this episode by Tim Howard and Breakmaster Cylinder. Juliana Feliciana Reyes is our newsletter editor and Theo Cobb is our video producer. Speaking of which, you can follow us on Instagram at Proxy Podcast and me Yoaishaw. Let us know where you're on the scale if you are a 6 presenting as an 8, a 10 like Kim maybe. Don't tell us if you're a 3. We also have a newsletter you can sign up for [e-mail] ProxyPodcast where you can become a paying member for a mere $5 a month if you want to believe in this dream too. Usually you'll get an exclusive monthly bonus episode, but we are taking off for March and April so we can focus on launch. See you in a month.