C (6:43)

It's listening very carefully for when either the grief or trauma olympics begin to get set in motion.

A (6:51)

Oh, is that a thing that happens?

C (6:53)

It weirdly happens. Well, that person, you know, had this kind of a loss, but my loss was. And it's like, nope, nope. There is no comparison. There is no hierarchy of loss.

A (7:08)

The goal, Monica says, is for everyone at camp to take risks, to connect, to open themselves and learn from each other and understand their loss in the context of a larger world, recognize the differences while also finding the common bonds, and ultimately leave with new friends and their arms full. The way Monica thinks about it is that they're creating these seeds of peace that everyone can take back home and spread, including the staff.

C (7:40)

One year, we held the program at Bryn Mawr College in Pennsylvania, and it was a long drive to get back to Boston, and I pulled the car up, and somebody who I didn't really know and didn't really have an interest in knowing more happened to be on the sidewalk. And I got out of the car and I threw my arms around her and I was like, what am I doing? When your heart is open like that, you view everybody so differently.

A (8:22)

This week we're doing something different. We're going to host a mini version of the camp with a proxy conversation between two campers who've never met. The first person is Yaroslava or Yara, a young woman from Ukraine who's going by her first name to protect her privacy. Yara went to camp for the first time this year. She was just 16 when she woke up in the middle of the night to the sound of explosions.

D (8:54)

The first thing, what I asked my mom, it was like, what is this? And she said, worse started. So I started to pack all my things.

A (9:04)

Yara says that just half an hour after she and her mom fled their apartment building, their town of Liptsy was taken by Russians. In a matter of months, thanks to the United for Ukraine program, Yara found herself living with a couple in Slidell, Louisiana. She was safe, but she couldn't really speak English and she missed her grandma and her friends terribly.

D (9:31)

I was always coming home and I wanted to cry just because I felt like I'm alone. Nobody wants to talk to me. And I was like, I want to leave. I have friends there. Not here today.

A (9:44)

Yara is 19 and she's doing better. She lives in New York City with her mom. She's studying digital marketing in college. She's made a few friends. She's even found gigs doing something she loves, arranging flowers for flower shops and making content. But she still doesn't feel settled. How do you make a new life when you feel guilty about not being home?

D (10:10)

And I'm like, Yara, you wanted to go home like first day when we came here and then you're having fun here.

A (10:19)

And so with Monica by her side to help facilitate, we set up a conversation between Yara and someone who's been to the camp a few times. A 26 year old woman named Soraya who grew up in the west bank in Palestine. For those who don't know, the west bank is under Israeli occupation and is not Gaza, the place Israel has been committing a genocide. The last few years, both Yara and Soraya have lost people. Yara's classmate recently, Soraya's uncle years ago. But in this conversation they ended up talking about other stuff. The guilt of not suffering with people in your country. How to stay close to the homies back home. What is home now? Anyways, here's our conversation which has been edited for brevity and clarity. I was thinking why don't we start with a round of introductions.

D (11:17)

Okay, I'll go first. My name is Yara. I'm originally from Ukraine, but now I live in New York. I'm 19 years old and now I'm studying in community college, but I am almost done. Also I would say I really love flowers. Nobody told me how to make phukettes. I just my grandma, she had a flower shop back in Ukraine. So when I was like very little like one year old, I was spending all my time in flower shop. So I think it just because I grew up in flower industry, now I can make it my myself.

E (11:59)

What's your favorite flower?

D (12:01)

Peony.

E (12:02)

Okay, nice. So my name is Saraya Bozund. I am in Maryland right now. But I was born and raised in Palestine, specifically in Tulkirim. And my recent Graduate. I studied human rights and the art, and I am a filmmaker. I dabble music on the side. I really like to cook.

D (12:33)

Do you like to bake? Because I'm obsessed with baking.

E (12:36)

Yeah, Yeah. I think I started baking at the young age. And then I was like, okay, I need to, I don't know, have some life skills. I can't just bake sugary things.

C (12:47)

Does who?

A (12:49)

Lanika asks Yara and Soraya what agreements they want to make for the conversation.

C (12:54)

Soraya, Yara, you're saying when somebody shows me that they're open to me, right? So.

A (13:00)

And then Yara starts things off by talking about something she's been preoccupied with.

D (13:06)

For me, I'm living two realities, I would say, in one, here, I'm grateful for everything I have. For food, for house. I have a place to live, a bed to sleep on. I know I can't really help people back in my country because I can go to military zone or war zone, but at the same time, I feel guilty about being here and not staying back in my country. I was always asking myself one question, why am I feeling guilty? Just I want to help somehow. And we are helping with donating money for military, but still not enough, I think.

E (13:53)

I feel like when I feel guilt, like, I. I will feel it, like, straight to my heart. I don't feel it anywhere else. Like, for example, like my brain or something like this. Like, I left my heart in Palestine, you know, and I really wanted to stay there, to live all of my life there and being able to see my friends and all of that. But in some moments, you. You, like, have to choose yourself as well instead of the cause.

A (14:25)

Back in 2021, Sariah's parents were having health problems and decided to leave Palestine for the US for their care. And Soraya followed along. Saria's mom is an American, so they all have American passports. And Soraya says she didn't want to stay behind alone. She was also curious about these quote, unquote, better opportunities her parents talked about.

E (14:52)

I think also this is where guilt comes in. Because, for instance, in our cultures, home and people, your community, your society comes first. And being able to choose yourself is kind of like big, no, no, you know, and once you choose it, you definitely feel like, feel something wrong.

A (15:21)

Yara, do you relate at all to that?

D (15:25)

It's a little bit different because I didn't left by choice. They pushed me too. But I feel like it's also a really great future for me because in Ukraine nowadays and before the war, it wasn't right place to be. Because in Ukraine, you need to have money to have a voice.

E (15:48)

Yeah. And also, like, what is choice in this situation? When I say I had a choice, did I really or was it like, pushed on me?

D (15:59)

That's also right. I had a question.

C (16:02)

Wondering, as you both have described, feeling separated from your heart, does it impact the way that you build relationships in this new place when your heart feels very connected to the place you left?

D (16:21)

For me, I'm not sure why, but I became more emotionally closed just because in Ukraine, I was all around my friends always. We had a community back in Ukraine, in my town, everybody knew everybody. Like, it's a small town where people communicated, like, really often. And I spent a lot of time in my school. When I was going to my dance section in my high school, I always was around the people. But when I came here and when I went to high school here, like, people can be curious about you and you need to be curious about them. But when I left high school, it felt like we are not connected anymore because we are not going at the same place. Like, connection is lost.

E (17:15)

Yeah.

D (17:16)

Yeah. And it's really hard to catch up with other people because you're not seeing them outside.

E (17:23)

Yeah. I'm just wondering, was high school just like the movies or not?

D (17:29)

Oh, no.

B (17:31)

Okay.

D (17:32)

I mean, in Ukraine, everyone was dreaming about high school. American high school. About yellow bus.

E (17:40)

Yeah.

D (17:40)

I was dreaming about it also. But when I was waking up at 4am to catch up the bus at 5, I was like, no, it is not my dream. Not my dream anymore.

E (17:53)

No, it's a nightmare. Yes.

D (17:56)

Yeah. And there was first few weeks I didn't have a friend, so I was having lunch all by myself. I was sitting at stairs and just having my lunch, my sandwich. But then I met one guy, he was from my art class. And he was the first person that was really interested in me. Like, we spent time together and he was the first person I went to the table and he introduced me to other people. And I felt like I'm an American movie. So. Yeah, but yellow buses are horrible.

E (18:37)

But also, I don't know if you can relate to this, but I'm pretty sure you can. I mean, before even October 7th, if people tell me, oh, like, where is that accent from? I was like, yeah, it's from Palestine. And they were like, oh, I'm so sorry. You know, just like this. Like, I mean, you don't have to remind me again and again. Like, please talk to me as a human. You know, like, don't talk to me as like a cry for help. Like it's not helping anybody.

D (19:13)

Yes, yes. When we arrived to Louisiana, we arrived to host family. It's a really nice couple. They are Americans. So. And when we arrived, we lived with my mom just in one room. And Nicole, it's a husband and wife. So Nicole, she bought to us like a lot of books to read. And everywhere we went she was introducing us like Ukrainian refugees.

E (19:44)

God.

D (19:44)

And I'm like, I'm a human. And she wasn't. Yeah, she, she was telling us that we don't need ID cards just because we will sit at home and we need always to read books. And she was introducing us like Ukrainian refugees. They've been do all of it. And I'm like, yeah, that's enough. I wanna just leave my normal life. I wanna be whole human, not just refugee.

E (20:12)

Like this is this, this is not an identity that you want, you know, like. Yes, to be identified as a refugee, you know, And I think there's like power in identifying as a refugee, but only when it comes from you, not from other people identifying you. And I think like it steals so many things from your identity. You're just everything gone, you know? The baker, flowerist.

D (20:40)

Yes.

E (20:41)

Yeah, I think I see that as well. Like being Palestinian in the eyes of like Americans. Like either I am just a terrorist or just cry for help. There is no curiosity.

A (21:01)

After the break, navigating long distance with the homies back home. So I'm really into skincare, thanks to my mom, which is why I'm excited to tell you and her about our sponsor, Oneskin. Oneskin was founded by a team of PhDs in skin regeneration, tissue engineering and stem cell biology. And basically they looked around at the anti aging industry and found that shocker, most of the products did not live up to their claims. And so they developed this patented OS1 peptide. It's the first ingredient that has been proven to target something called senescent cells, which apparently are a root cause of wrinkles, crepiness and loss of elasticity. Did you know that? I did not. Their products have been backed by five clinical studies published in peer reviewed journals and over 10,000 five star reviews. I got sent their bestsellers OS1 Face and OS1 Eye. And my skin really did feel immediately nourished and plump and it stayed that way for hours. I've been checking out before and after photos online from reviews and I've been really impressed. For once, this seems to be a skincare product that's worth the price. So this season don't just moisturize. Support your skin at the cellular level with Oneskin and support the show for a limited time. You can try one skin with 15% off using code proxy at Oneskin co. After you purchase they will ask you where you heard about them. Please tell them we sent you. That's 15% off at OneSkin co with code proxy.

B (22:58)

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A (24:15)

In my intake call with Yara, I'd asked her about her grandma who was still in Ukraine, still in Crimea, which is an active war zone. Yara told me they're really close. And she'd begged and begged her grandma to come to the U.S. but her grandma refused, said she was too old, didn't know English, didn't want to leave home. And so every day Yara and her grandma talk on the phone about their days and gossip.

D (24:46)

We are always talking about flowers. Always. Did they drink water today? How beautiful this rose is. Oh my God. It has two colors in one. Where did you get it?

A (24:57)

We're going to pick up the proxy conversation now. Yara is explaining to Soraya how much she misses her grandma.

D (25:06)

So my grandma is still in Crimea. She used to have flower shop and she's always sending me like pictures of flowers that she has in her garden. And we are always talking about it and I think in my head I imagine, like, how I can help her with her garden for now. And old memories are coming up. Like, all my friends, how we are running around her garden and she's yelling like, stop. There's my flowers. And I'm crying just because I have flashbacks. How great was it? And I think it's just understanding of I'm not gonna have old life. Like, I have a new one, and the best is not an option anymore. And I need to just let it go, to stop crying. I had a really nice childhood, and I need to be grateful. Not like I lost something.

E (26:22)

Yeah. I feel it's also, like, very beautiful that it's still there as well.

D (26:27)

Yeah.

E (26:28)

And I don't know, doing your best in your reality to make sure that this place actually exists after, like, 10 years or something. I feel like this is like a way to. To think about it again and. Yeah, doing your best either. I don't know, for me, like, doing art about it, you know, I. I'll. I'll write short stories or do films about them to make my home. I don't know. Like, I have. I have a say in it too, you know, And I can contribute to it. And it's. It's not like I'm cut now. I cannot do anything about it. No, it's. On the contrary. I have all of the tools and the power to do something about it. Even though I can't help in the front lines. Like, I can't. But I can do something else about it. I think this is what helped me throughout these years. I can do something beyond just crying.

D (27:36)

Yeah, that's right. Do you have, like, any flashbacks when you're, like, watching your old pictures and do you miss your old life or did you just let it go?

E (27:58)

Well, I visited Palestine this January.

A (28:03)

In January, Soraya went back to the west bank to make a film for her master's thesis.

E (28:09)

And I went to the place I grew up in, and nobody lives there. And it was just sort of like a dream, because I've been thinking about that house for the past, I don't know, three years or something. It was at that moment where I reached the building, when I reached the town, even. It just felt very small. Like, for the past three years, I've been, like, growing up as well. And it just felt like an old T shirt that you really, really like and that you really feel yourself in. But it just feels two sizes smaller now. It just feels. This is a. This is a tax that you pay when you go away from home for a bit. I Feel like your grandma can resemble my best friend. Because my best friend always sends me like a picture of my home and like, yeah, I want to be there too, but the reality is that I'm not there anymore. And that's a hard, hard pill to swallow.

A (29:38)

Yeah. The fact that, Soraya, you were able to go home after leaving is really singular, something that Yara didn't experience. And I'm wondering, what fantasy did you have of your trip back home?

E (29:59)

I think the expectations that were fulfilled is like meeting my friends and just seeing them. They're like getting old and I'm getting younger for some reason. I saw their letters and sons and all of that. And you know, the only thing that I wanted is to have tea with them and being able to talk about the gossip that I missed around town. You know, this was the expectation that I had and I really did. But as soon as like the weekend has gone, everybody went to their lives and I'm very grateful for that cup of tea that I had with my friends. But I'm just curious about you. You're like, do you have like an expectation when you go home?

D (30:53)

It's hard to say really when I am going to be back, but I have a lot of friends there and I really just wanted to sit, have a cup of coffee somewhere, go to my favorite places. And I know everyone is getting older and have their own lives, so I would love things to be as easy as it was before I left country. But I think it's going to be more complicated. I would say awkward when you sit with your old friends, but now you're have different lives and you have your own thoughts and it's no longer connected, just the past. And my house, my apartment is no longer exists and destroyed. And I just want to go and see how's my city, where I used to go to high school, how it looks like right now. Because I don't count it like my home anymore because no one is there. My friends are like all over in Europe. So yeah, just go and see. Go back to your memories, I would say. But yeah, I know I'm gonna be disappointed when I'm gonna be back, but I know I'm. I need to and I want to. Yeah.

A (32:34)

Did you experience that, Soraya, what Yara was talking about with it being awkward with old friends?

E (32:43)

Yeah, I mean, they definitely did not see me for like three years. And like all of the things that I, I have experienced, I've experienced it myself. And it's definitely like they don't have this memory with me, this collective memory with me. And I think sometimes we enjoyed talking about the past, but it's. In our case, it was depressing because, like, when can we do that again?

D (33:25)

Yes. Yeah.

E (33:26)

It's not really, like, a conversation. It's mostly thinking together or romanticizing the past. I mean, my friends always tell me, like, oh, you've become more Americanized now, Khalas. We lost you to capitalism.

A (33:44)

Are they right?

E (33:46)

No, they're not. No, I'm just. I'm just being lazy and, like, I don't know, sitting on my bed.

A (33:57)

You mentioned earlier, Soraya, that, like, when you connect with people back home, that you don't feel comfortable talking about your life here, that you want to listen more because it doesn't feel appropriate to be like, I'm going to a party.

E (34:14)

Yeah.

A (34:15)

Can you say more about that?

E (34:19)

I think friends, like, share everything. Like, they, like. My friends are very open and they want to know what I am up to and all of that. But in some moments, I cannot call a friend or, like, say to my friend, like, yeah, I'm living my life. I'm, like, going out, you know, I'm, like, doing all of these things while they're, like, barely going out of the house, you know? And in some moments, like, we needed to relate to our friends. But when you cannot relate to your friend, what would you do? Especially those friends who you did everything with. Like, my best friend, like, she literally used to get me out of the house to go to the supermarket with her. We were that close. And, yeah, like, just not being able to share the same experience and you can't relate to them. You can listen to them. You can be there for them.

D (35:27)

Yeah, it happened with me, like, two days ago. I was on the phone with my friend. We grew up together. I know him since I was 4 years old, and he was always obsessed with United States. He was always like, ah, I want to go there. It's my dream. And now when he's calling me, he wants to know how things are going. And I'm not feeling like, judgment, but I don't want to tell how great is it, how many opportunities I have, just because I know he is now in Ukraine and things are not really going well. I don't want to be like, I am up to this. I'm going there when I know he cannot do that. And I want to hear more about him. How can I help him? Because I feel like he needs me more now than I need him. Yeah.

E (36:27)

It tells you a lot about, you know, our community and the people that you grow up with, you don't just, like, abandoned when things, like, get hard or, like. Yeah. Like, you always want to keep them around because they remind you of, like, something sweet and warm. And it's very hard to find those people again. And I would like to live on that, like, hope that I can relate to my friends again. And long distance sucks, man.

D (37:14)

Yeah. I feel you. You are talking about same thing that I feel. But what does home now mean to you? Because now for me, I think it's just where my mom is, I would say, because she's always with me. How is it for you?

E (37:34)

I think because I moved a lot in. In my youth. I'm just kidding. Like, because I moved a lot, and I think I really connected with people. So I think right now, home is the people that I'm, like, either friends with or, like, my family or something like this. Because I just realized that if I think about home as, like, a physical, concrete building, it's not actually helping, because that building, I'm gonna be far away from it.

A (38:11)

I'm curious. Are there any other examples for either of you where you feel like you are. You are carrying home here?

E (38:24)

I don't know. Sometimes we're, like, so fixated on, like, this bigger picture, but is it in the small things that we do in life? You know, like. Like, home is still with us, like, no matter what we do. Like, for example, like, the F. This is on a depressing note, just, I think, you know? But, like, for instance, like, I lived near an airport, and, you know, as soon as I saw an airplane, I, like, immediately looked up. Oh, like an airplane. These are just commercial airplanes. And it was the first time I've ever noticed that this airplane is not my enemy. They're not to spy on me or, like, to collect data or something like this, but it's something that I carried with me. I brought tears, these emotions. I brought them here. Yeah, you can see the smallest things. For example, I really like to play my guitar with, like, people, and I did that in Palestine, and I did that here as well. And for some reason, my level of playing the guitar really stopped when, like, I left Palestine. So all of the songs I play are, like, from 2020, you know, and I just. I just noticed that, like, this is what I do. This is the songs that I play, and I would like to play them over and over again.

A (40:03)

I've never thought about skill levels staying at one place in this way. That's beautiful. I love that.

E (40:13)

Yeah, I feel you do that too. Like, I think the moment that you spoke, like, I love flowers. I'm just like. Like, where did you get that hobby from? And now I understand where you got this hobby from. And I think you carry it with you right now. Even though it's like flowers, you do it despite of things that are happening.

D (40:37)

That's right. Yeah. Because flowers, that. It was like, the first thing. I just started to do it and I forget everything. I'm here, I'm doing it, and I'm enjoying it. And I think I'm connected with my grandma just because of the flowers. She's a really, like, close person to me. So, yeah, I found it really, like, calming.

A (41:00)

Right. It's like a way that you are carrying home. You're helping it continue to exist.

D (41:08)

That's right.

E (41:09)

Yeah.

C (41:11)

Yeah.

D (41:11)

It's a really. Thank you. It's a really nice thought. I didn't think about it this way, but yeah.

E (41:20)

Yeah.

A (41:22)

You know, you both have been through a lot. It seems to me like there have been different phases of grief, different phases of loneliness, different phases of missing home. Was there a turning point for either of you when you began to feel settled in your new life?

D (41:46)

For me, I think I didn't have, like, this point. It just goes. I don't feel it. Like, it just ghost, like, I'm on my way, and then keep doing it. That's it. Like, it feels like I'm on my way.

E (42:05)

I think for me, it's when I stopped using the GPS to go anywhere. You know, like, I'm memorizing roads and I'm figuring out, like, what I like about this place instead of just seeing the negatives in it. As soon as I, like, started that journey of, like, discovering myself, the best place or the places that I want to hang out in, I think this. This sort of, like, made it close to, like, what I want. The place that I now call, quote, unquote, home. And it's where I don't have to do that much labor or like, the. The person at the cashier knows your name.

A (42:57)

Hmm. Okay. Do you have one last thing you want to ask or say to each other?

D (43:03)

I just wanted to say it was really nice to meet you, Soraya.

E (43:07)

It was happy, like, chatting with you. I feel like we have similar journeys.

D (43:14)

That's right. And you really opened my eyes about flowers. So. Yeah. Thank you.

E (43:25)

You're welcome. I mean, I'm expecting a bouquet of flowers when I see you.

D (43:29)

No problem. I will.

E (43:31)

Yeah.

A (43:45)

That was Yaroslava and Soraya Abuzan. Special thanks to Monica Mia McNamara. You can find out more about the camp and how to support their work@dignitybeyondborders.org you can follow them on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook and they have a newsletter and you can also follow Yaroslava on Instagram and you can check out the film Soraya traveled to the west bank to make for her master's thesis on Vimeo. The film is film explores freedom of movement and the lack of freedom of movement, all told through the perspective of one of these white Ford vans, which is a very cool premise. We'll have all those links in our show Notes Proxy is an independent podcast and we have just 10 days to reach our goal of 1000 paying Patreon members by October 31st so we can get an additional 25k from a generous listener and cover the cost of making a Year two. Will you help us get to a Year two? We really just need a tiny fraction of everyone listening. To sign up for the Patreon just go to patreon.com ProxyPodcast Starting at $5 a month you'll get access to ad free episodes, the chat and exclusive bonus episodes. This month you get not one but two bonus episodes. A conversation with Soraya Apusant about the harrowing backstory to make her film in the west bank and a conversation with Monica Mia McNamara about a near disaster between Israeli and Palestinian campers this year that turned into a miracle. You can listen to those bonus episodes by Signing up@patreon.com ProxyPodcast if you were really in for a treat, these are good ones. This episode was edited by Tim Howard, mixed by Kyle Pooley and produced by Mathilde Urfelino and me Yoe Shaw with help from Kim Nadervane Petersa and Anna Karan Santana. Music in this episode by Tim Howard. Our theme music is by Brickmaster Cylinder. Proxy is a proud member of Radiotopia from prx, a network of independent creator owned listener supported podcasts. Audrey Martovich is the Executive Executive Producer of Radiotopia. Yuri Lozordo is the Director of Operations Discover Audio with vision at Radiotopia FM. As always you can follow us on Instagram @Proxypodcast and I'm Yoheishaw. Get in touch@proxythepodmail.com we'll be back on Tuesday, November 4th with a non election themed episode. Thanks for listening.

E (46:28)

Radiotopia from prx.