Yowei Can't Speak Bro

Summary

Proxy with Yowei Shaw — "Yowei Can't Speak Bro" (May 19, 2026)

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Yowei Shaw explores a deeply personal and awkward social knot: her inability to connect with her husband's best friend, "B," due to fundamentally different conversational styles—what she calls "speaking bro" versus "speaking feelings." The episode blends emotional investigative journalism with a touch of humor and self-reflection, as Yowei enlists sociologist Scott Kiesling and podcast host Jason Stewart as guides. Together, they unpack what "bro speak" is, why it can be difficult for outsiders, and whether it can be learned or bridged.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introducing the Problem: 12 Years of Awkward Small Talk

• Yowei introduces her struggle: despite liking her husband's best friend B, they've never had a genuine conversation in 12 years.
• With her husband Kyle, they describe their dynamic:
  • B’s playful, surface-level banter vs. Yowei’s drive to go deep and discuss feelings.
  • [04:55] Kyle: "I think he said something like, hey, yo. And then you were like, oh, were you giving me like a nickname?... Let's talk about nicknames."
  • Yowei’s attempts at meaningful questions (e.g., “What do you think are the different uses of empathy?”) never land—they’re met with jokes or quick deflections.
  • [06:07] Yowei: “A cul de sac is a good metaphor because it really does feel like we never get anywhere. We just can't ever get on the road.”

Defining "Bro Speak" vs. "Feeling Speak"

• Yowei and Kyle attempt to label their disconnect:
  • "I speak feelings and he speaks bro."
  • Kyle explains bro speak as competitive, rapid-fire banter, focused on entertainment rather than connection; feeling speak is about listening, follow-up, and emotional detail.
  • [08:45] Kyle: "In bro speak, I don't really wait my turn. I cut people off because you're kind of like trying to beat each other to the punchline."
  • [09:59] Yowei: "I'm rarely trying to entertain people when I talk to them. I'm trying to connect…It's not working with B lately."
• The pain of this disconnect is real and ongoing for Yowei—and at times, for Kyle, too.
  • [10:51] Kyle: “It doesn’t keep me up at night, but it would be nice if it happened.”

Linguistic Expertise: The Social Science of Bro

• Yowei consults Scott Kiesling, sociologist at University of Pittsburgh, who has spent decades studying “bro speak.”
• Kiesling embedded with a fraternity to observe “bros” in their natural habitat:
  • [17:14] Scott: “I usually had a beer to fit in or whatever and sometimes had a few…”
  • He observes American men, especially straight, white, middle-class men, face a contradiction: wanting to connect, but not seem emotionally needy.
  • Intimacy is built indirectly through jokes, teasing, references—"a way of being close without looking like you’re trying too hard."
  • [18:19] Scott: “That broness...is really about kind of being laid back and cool, a little bit unemotional, except in particular ways.”
• Yowei dubs this “low investment,” which captivates her as an interview style (slouching, shuffling, acting chill).
  • [19:40] Scott: “You don’t say, ‘Oh, that’s so interesting.’ It’s like, ‘Oh, that’s cool.’”
• Key Aha: “Complementary schismogenesis”—each party’s effort to bridge the gap only deepens it.
  • [21:12] Scott: “You’re both working to make the gap bigger, but you think you’re trying to make it smaller…You’re like, oh, you’re not talking about your feelings, I’m gonna ask you more about your feelings…”

Meeting the Proxy Bro: Jason Stewart

• Yowei brings on Jason Stewart—podcast host of How Long Gone—as a stand-in bro expert.
  • “I think that karaoke should have an eject button.” [24:34]
• Jason, a self-aware bro who once rebelled against bro culture but now embraces it, defines bro-ness:
  • [30:58] “Maybe a lack of preparation and going with the flow…you value relaxation, friendship, good food, good music…you don’t take life super duper seriously.”
• Yowei explains her confusion—how can guys hang out for hours with zero personal content exchanged?
  • [33:22] Jason: “Bros don’t really care…We want to joke around with our favorite peeps for seven hours.”
• The contrast: for Yowei and her friends, fun means meticulously recapping personal gossip (with agendas and bullet points).
  • [35:05] Jason: “You guys are nerds. That’s why…”
  • [36:18] Jason labels Yowei and her friends “producer chicks”—organized, agenda-driven, maybe a bit Type A (even if Yowei objects).

The Bro Playbook: How (Not) to Connect

• Jason decodes B’s resistance: for bros, deep talks are context-dependent and rare, never the point of group hangs or surface banter.

  • [38:14] Jason: “In the mind of the bro, the word goal does not come to the equation of a convo…You’re a plastic bag floating in the wind.”

• Key tactics Jason offers for Yowei:

  • (1) Synchronize chemical headspace: Loosen up and let vibes lead (alcohol, music, the right setting).
    • [41:34] “If you were able to think of a witty retort or an observation…he will look at you in a different way for at least six months.”
  • (2) Bond over being haters: Connection can emerge quicker through shared dislikes than shared interests.
    • [42:36] “The easiest way and the fastest way to bond with another person…is over things you dislike…”

• It’s not about orchestrating a deep moment—it’s about letting it happen organically, not “planning your drinks ahead like you’re going on stage.” [43:47–44:09]

Jason’s Own Cross-Style Struggles & Breakthroughs

• Jason shares his story of struggling to connect with his wife’s father—a reserved, non-bro Vietnamese man.
• The breakthrough? A spontaneous, witty aside echoed what he suspected the other person was thinking, leading to genuine connection and (importantly) a rare, “bro” embrace.
  • [47:22] “The handshake. And then the little…the hand came around for the little, little bro side hug.”
  • [48:34] “You’ve just got to get out of your head and just, like, blurt something out and not be afraid of it falling on its face.”

Yowei’s Reflections & Epiphany

• After the interview, Yowei initially spirals—feeling vulnerable, judged, and out of control.
• On re-listen, she recognizes Jason’s insults and banter as “terms of endearment,” a real-time bro-style connection.
  • [51:27] “You guys are nerds.” / [51:45] “Producer chicks. That’s so funny. That’s gonna haunt me. Oh, my God.”
  • [51:19] Jason: “Well, I think we’re learning that you might have a producer chick star, but a bro chick rising.”
• Yowei realizes she has begun “speaking bro”—even finding pleasure in the fun-competitive energy, despite the discomfort and messiness.
• The takeaway: bridging the gap isn’t about changing who you are, but relaxing, leaning in, and being willing to play the game.

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Timestamps & Notable Quotes

Notable Quotes

• Yowei (on the dynamic with B):
  "A cul de sac is a good metaphor because it really does feel like we never get anywhere." [06:07]

• Kyle (on the disconnect):
  "There's lots of goodwill. But, yeah, you're on different wavelengths." [06:32]

• Scott Kiesling (on bro intimacy):
  "A way of being close without looking like you’re trying too hard." [18:05]

• Scott Kiesling (on the gap):
  "You're both working to make the gap bigger, but you think you're trying to make it smaller…You're like, oh, you're not talking about your feelings, I'm gonna ask you more about your feelings. And that's exactly what he doesn't want." [21:12]

• Jason Stewart (on bro priorities):
  "Bros are trying to catch a buzz by the fire. I want to joke around with my favorite peeps for seven hours." [33:32]

• Jason Stewart (on friendship goals):
  "In the mind of the bro, the word 'goal' does not come to the equation of a convo unless it is a specifically sanctioned convo…You're a plastic bag floating in the wind." [39:20]

• Jason Stewart (advice):
  "You've just got to get out of your head and just, like, blurt something out and not be afraid of it falling on its face. Because if it falls on its face and everyone laughs because you're stupid, then everyone laughed and it was a stupid moment. And then he'll say, wow, you're not afraid of looking like a fucking idiot. I like you a little bit more now." [48:34]

• Yowei (on discovering bro speak):
  “It was competitive, kind of aggressive. I felt like I had to be on my toes the whole time. But there was pleasure in that feeling.” [51:48]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:27] — First concrete description of the awkward dynamic with B.
• [06:07] — Cul de sac metaphor for stalled conversations.
• [12:03] — Decision: "I go to the most terrifying place possible. A conversation with someone who speaks bro for a living."
• [16:18] — Enter Scott Kiesling, sociologist and linguist specializing in "bro speak."
• [21:12] — The key concept: "Complementary schismogenesis."
• [24:34] — Introduction to Jason Stewart, proxy bro.
• [30:58] — Jason’s definition of bro criteria.
• [33:22] — Why "bros don’t care" about the gossip.
• [41:34] — "Get in the same chemical headspace" advice.
• [42:36] — The "be a hater" technique for bro bonding.
• [47:22] — Jason’s breakthrough moment with his father-in-law.
• [51:05] — Yowei's realization on relistening to the conversation.
• [56:03] — Closing: Would B be weirded out by this whole quest?

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Memorable Moments

• The “Producer Chick” Label:
  Jason's invented taxonomy strikes a nerve and morphs into affectionate ribbing—distilling the episode’s playful cultural anthropology.

• The “Plastic Bag Floating in the Wind” Metaphor:
  Jason uses this image to explain why shooting the shit, not deep connection, is the unspoken bro priority at group hangs.

• Jason’s Breakthrough with His Father-in-Law:
  The story underscores that even seasoned talkers can struggle—and that sometimes, bro-ness is less about words and more about sharing a vibe.

• Yowei’s Epiphany:
  The moment she realizes she was actually bro-speaking, just messily and with competitive fun, reframes the struggle as growth, not failure.

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Takeaways

• “Bro speak” is a culture and a code—one that prizes vibe, in-jokes, banter, and above all, effortlessness.
• "Feeling speak" can seem needy or intense in the wrong context, just as “bro speak” can come off as evasive and shallow.
• The gap between styles is real, and attempts to bridge it often make it worse—unless you approach it with self-awareness, lightness, and a willingness to play on new turf.
• Sometimes, the terms we bristle at ("producer chick," "nerd") are, in context, lines of connection.
• Growth means awkwardness; connection is built one imperfect, sometimes embarrassing, sometimes hilarious attempt at a time.

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Further Resources

• Guest Links:
  • Jason Stewart's podcast: How Long Gone
  • Scott Kiesling’s research: sfkeesling.com

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For New Listeners

If this kind of emotional detective work resonates with you, check out previous Proxy episodes like “Bisexual Wife Guy” for more nuanced, funny, and illuminating explorations of life’s niche conundrums.

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Final Thought

As Yowei reflects in the closing:
“I don’t think I’m going to be able to effectively talk to Bea just yet. But I could see myself trying that again. I just need reps.” [51:55]

Connection is a language—sometimes strange, sometimes exhilarating, and always worth a little awkwardness to learn.

Transcript

[Yowei Shaw]

You said that this subject is near and dear to your heart. What do you mean?

[Jason Stewart]

Bro stuff.

[Yowei Shaw]

Bro stuff.

[Jason Stewart]

Okay, the Bro Life.

[Yowei Shaw]

Hey everyone, it's yoe on Proxy. I investigate niche emotional conundrums, problems so specific they can make you feel like you're the only dummy on earth experiencing it. Today's the woman who doesn't know how to connect with her husband's best friend. What do you do when you just have a different style of conversation? That's after the break. As listeners of this program know, pouring your heart out, really confronting your emotions helps you understand yourself and the world better so you can be better. That's what the podcast how to Be a Better Human is all about. Host and comedian Chris Duffy skips the typical self help advice and instead talks to experts unpacking big, relatable questions about how we navigate being human. Somehow I made the cut and was recently on an episode that even though I don't identify as an expert and I had so much fun talking to Chris, we got into the weirdness of being laid off to why friendship breakups hit so hard and so much more. Listen to how to Be a Better Human wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Yowei Shaw]

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[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Jesus. I mean, I think it's like oftentimes there is a joke that or a reference that you do not get that needs to be explained, or there is a thing that you say that he does not, like, want to dissect or talk about in any great depth.

[Yowei Shaw]

Can you be more specific?

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Well, I mean, I remember the first interaction that exemplifies this.

[Yowei Shaw]

Oh, my God. Okay, what? What is it?

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Well, we are at my house and I think he said something like, hey, yo. And then you were like, oh, were you giving me like a nickname? Or were you just saying like, heyo, you know, what is a nickname? Let's talk about nicknames.

[Yowei Shaw]

And when people feel ready to give a nickname.

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Oh, yeah, exactly. And he was like, I don't know, it's just like a thing I said.

[Yowei Shaw]

But usually it's me who gets stuck, will say hi, hug, and at some point during the night, I'll throw him what I think is a tasty bone.

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

You try to ask him something like, what do you think are the different uses of empathy? And then he'll be like, oh, well, I felt a lot of empathy for Kyle when he fell down the stairs last night. And then you don't really know how to respond to that. And he didn't respond in the way that you were hoping to get.

[Yowei Shaw]

Mm.

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

It's kind of like taking a turn onto a cul de sac.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah, a cul de sac is a good metaphor because it really does feel like we never get anywhere. We just can't ever get on the road. You know what I mean?

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Yeah, yeah.

[Yowei Shaw]

The road being Anywhere interesting or fun. What you usually hope for in a conversation with a friend You've known for 12 years.

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

There's lots of goodwill.

[Yowei Shaw]

Mm.

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

But, yeah, you're on different wavelengths.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, so my theory is that I speak feelings and he speaks bro. Would you agree?

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

I mean, I think there can be bros who are in touch with their feelings.

[Yowei Shaw]

Of course. I mean, you are one of sure bros. Yeah. But this marriage would not work. Yeah, you're not in touch with your feelings.

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Yeah, I think that's a fair. It's probably more complex than that, but I think that's a fair shorthand.

[Yowei Shaw]

I once drunkenly tried to have a heart to heart with be about this a New Year's party, and we didn't get very far because he couldn't get past me saying that he speaks bro. It was like he blacked out when he heard the B word. He was horrified. And in hindsight, I get it. I think what he heard me say was, you're an entitled, misogynistic, straight white CIS dude. But that is not at all what I meant. I was not using bro in the derogatory. To me, speaking bro is to lead with jokes, banter, teasing. It's more surface, not intimate. It's a thing that lots of dudes do. But not only dudes. I know women who speak bro. I know trans people who speak bro, and whenever they do, I feel left behind. To me, bro is more about a vibe, a certain jovial energy, Whereas feeling speak is all about feelings going deep, getting into what is really going on with you at work, in your relationships with the people you know and the people they know. The gossip, the good stuff, at least. This is my theory. I think that you can code switch because obviously we are married and B is your best friend. So what does it mean to you to speak bro?

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Well, there's like two different volume settings. So one I'm talking like this, and then, you know, another I might be a bit louder.

[Yowei Shaw]

Literally two volume settings.

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Yes.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay. So volume louder in bro.

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Yes.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay. What else?

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Feeling speak is really waiting and listening. Especially if I'm in a feelings group setting, I really speak a lot less. I let people talk for long periods of time. I ask them follow up questions about their story and get into details about said thing and how those things might make them feel. You know, I think in bro speak, I don't really wait my turn. I cut people off because you're kind of like trying to beat each other to the punchline.

[Yowei Shaw]

That sounds stressful. It's like Competitive.

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

There is some. There's maybe some friendly competition. I mean, it can go too far sometimes.

[Yowei Shaw]

Are you just supposed to be, like, chilling with your friends, but then if

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

someone says something funny, then we all laugh? You know, it's like you're trying to entertain each other.

[Yowei Shaw]

I think maybe this is another key difference. I think for me, I'm rarely trying to entertain people when I talk to them. I'm trying to connect. Whatever I'm doing. It's not working with Bea lately. When we're all hanging out in a group and I see Bea across the room drinking a beer, patting friends on the back, roaring with laughter, I have to look away. It's a painful reminder of how far apart we are, just how awkward it is between us. Still, sometimes when I'm not in the mood, I'll even try to avoid him. And I think he does the same. How does it make you feel that I've never had a successful conversation with your best friend?

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Really just putting me all on the record here, you know, it doesn't keep me up at night, but it would be nice if it happened.

[Yowei Shaw]

I mean, it's been 12 years.

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Yeah. Sometimes I feel like. Yeah, I feel a little frustrated by it.

[Yowei Shaw]

What do you mean?

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Just like, I just don't understand why this can't happen. And I start placing blame on one person or the other, but, you know, it's no one's fault.

[Yowei Shaw]

How does it affect you?

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

I don't know. I mean, I'm forcing you to do

[Yowei Shaw]

feelings talk right now, and you're wriggling, trying to get out of my grasp.

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Yeah. I mean, you know, sometimes I feel like I'm closer with your people than you are. Closer with my people?

[Yowei Shaw]

I'm sorry.

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

It's okay.

[Yowei Shaw]

I think that if I can crack this code, I think it will help. Don't you think?

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Oh, yeah. I definitely think that it would help.

[Yowei Shaw]

Today on Proxy, I go to the most terrifying place possible. A conversation with someone who speaks bro For a living. A fast talking, loud, crass podcast bro. That's after the break. This episode is supported in part by TaskRabbit. Okay, now that Proxy is back and I am crashing on getting the new episodes out, this is the time my personal to do list usually gets depressingly long. So organizing my closet, spring cleaning, putting up those shelves in the basement so the pile of books can come off the floor. Finally. Well, now I know that TaskRabbit is ready to help. TaskRabbit connects you with skilled taskers in your area for moving furniture. Assembly, home repairs, yard work, mounting and more. You can search for a tasker based on cost, skill set availability and past client reviews so you know exactly who's showing up and can have confidence that they know what they're doing. And taskers are often available to help the same day. Taskers have assembled over 3.4 million pieces of furniture, completed 700,000 home repairs, handled 1.5 million moves and counting. I just looked through the website and there are so many services from yard work to hanging art to installing shelves to baby proofing and rearranging furniture, and so much more. When life happens, your to do list grows. Get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first [e-mail] or on the TaskRabbit app using promo code proxy. Taskers book up fast, especially for same day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That's $15 off your first task using promo code proxy with the TaskRabbit app or taskrabbit.com Money has a way of complicating just about everything, and even though it touches every aspect of our lives, it can still be tricky and uncomfortable to talk about. Each week, host Rima Krace digs into stories about the unanticipated ways money shapes our relationships, identities, and the choices we make. The best part of this is Uncomfortable is that you walk away from each episode with tangible tips about how to manage your own economic stressors. Some recent favorites include advice on how to cope with layoff anxiety, why marriage should always include a prenup, and how to decide when or if you should turn your hobby into a side hustle. New episodes drop every Thursday. Find this is uncomfortable on your favorite podcast app. We are going into choppy waters today. I hope you're ready for it. I myself definitely was not, but it was clear to me that if I ever want to be able to talk to Bea, I need to talk to a proxy for him. A scary final boss bro. And we will get to that. But first I need to clear something up. There are some of you out there who are probably thinking this is bullshit, this is not a thing, this is yo way just being awkward and not knowing how to banter. And I've received such criticism from many people over the years when I tell them about me and Bea and so I need to take a quick detour to show you doubters that you are completely wrong. I talked to a guy named Scott Kiesling, a sociologist and professor at the University of Pittsburgh, and he spent over three decades studying how dudes like B talk and why they talk the way they do. Would you say you study bro speak?

[Scott Kiesling]

Yeah, sure. I mean, it depends on what you mean by bro speak.

[Yowei Shaw]

To answer this question, what does one mean by bro speak? Well, you'd really need to study bros very closely. This is exactly what Scott has done and he chose to study the Most stereotypical patient 0bro there is, the frat boy. Scott took his mission so seriously that he embedded with a college fraternity in Virginia for a year.

[Scott Kiesling]

I would go almost every day.

[Yowei Shaw]

You would go every day for a year?

[Scott Kiesling]

As much as I could.

[Yowei Shaw]

Scott would hit record on his tape recorder and try to hang in the background, something he could still pull off as a 26 year old back then. He'd sit in on the meetings, go to rush events and lurk at all the parties. He even took his girlfriend to a formal, which he says was weird.

[Scott Kiesling]

I usually had a beer to fit in or whatever and sometimes had a few, but. And a couple times I did like, you know, sleep on a couch or something like that if it got to be late. And I stayed at the party until 3am and decided I should not drive home.

[Yowei Shaw]

After going through a mountain of beer stained recordings, Scott started drawing conclusions which would become part of his grand theory about how dudes talk, which is that men, at least the straight, white, middle class American men he studied, they face a central contradiction. They want to connect with each other and they don't want to seem emotionally needy. So basically, because the dominant cultural script says to be a man is to be authoritative, in control and not gay, men build intimacy with each other in, in indirect ways, through jokes, insults, teasing, shared references, storytelling, arguing rituals, a way of being close without looking like you're trying too hard.

[Scott Kiesling]

So one of my theories is that that broness that can circulate is really about kind of being laid back and cool, a little bit unemotional, except in particular ways.

[Yowei Shaw]

Everything I am not, Yeah, I call

[Scott Kiesling]

this low investment, this sort of lack of care, a projection of comfort, which

[Yowei Shaw]

is almost immediately jumped to this live podcast and went to a wild bed.

[Scott Kiesling]

It's the same thing as the man spreading, right?

[Yowei Shaw]

You're sitting interviewing a guest on stage and the dude podcast host was doing this thing that captivated me. He was slouching back in his chair, shuffling papers, not paying attention, making his co host do all the work. Afterwards, I couldn't stop thinking about him. He just had this aura and I thought, whatever he has, I want that. So much so that I can't believe I'm admitting This. I even printed out a photo of him to put in my recording booth to remind me to relax during interviews. It's been my North Star, that podcast host, slouching on the stage, doing a bad job and not giving a fuck, as if the world is his plushie mattress and all he has to do is lay back. How do I get there? How does one project comfort?

[Scott Kiesling]

So in terms of language, things like lack of enthusiasm, it could be intensity of how you talk. It can be the kind of adjectives you use, the kind of adverbs you use. You don't say, oh, that's so interesting. Right. It's like, oh, that's cool.

[Yowei Shaw]

He's literally said those words, oh, that's cool.

[Scott Kiesling]

Yeah, I'm sure that is being low investment. It's approving, but it's not expressing that. You're getting excited about it. Right. You can imagine that you're not going to talk about feelings. You're just like, I'm cool, I'm good. Nothing to say.

[Yowei Shaw]

Are there also different ways of showing engagement? I'm a real question asker. I like it when people do that for me too. How is it different in bro speak?

[Scott Kiesling]

Well, I wouldn't say there aren't questions. I just think they're less specific and maybe also not about feelings necessarily. So they might be shorter and sort of more options and less enthusiastically asked, how'd that work out for you? Is basically saying, well, what happened? Or how did you feel when that happened? In kind of a jokey way too. Right. Like you're sort of saying, oh, that probably didn't go very well. And I'm just gonna ask you for a little bit elaboration of how things went.

[Yowei Shaw]

And then Scott said something that was a big aha moment for me that helped explain why me and Bea haven't been able to move the ball forward one inch in the last 12 years.

[Scott Kiesling]

It's one of my favorite phrases in linguistics. It's called complementary schismogenesis. And it basically means you're gonna have

[Yowei Shaw]

to say the word again. Complementary. Schismo, Genesis.

[Scott Kiesling]

You got it. So to pull that apart. Complementary with an E, which means like opposing coming together, like complementary angles. And schism is a gap. Right. And genesis is to create. Right. So you are both working to make the gap bigger, but you think you're trying to make it smaller because you're doing the thing that you would normally do to make it smaller. Right. You're like, oh, you're not talking about your feelings. I'm gonna ask you more about your feelings. And that's exactly what he doesn't want. So what does he do? He pulls back and he shuts down, or he makes jokes, or he tries to express things in a way that you're supposed to understand and you don't, but. So he keeps doing it. But both of those things just make it worse.

[Yowei Shaw]

Maybe it's like, at least breaking this pattern, because this pattern is really. It's just so locked.

[Scott Kiesling]

It starts with sort of saying, okay, I'm not going to do the same thing that I was doing, but you don't actually have to do the exact same thing that the other person's doing. You becoming a bro and him becoming all feelings, Y. The two of you will have to find what works for the two of you.

[Yowei Shaw]

Wow. You have answers for me. This is incredible. Have you ever had.

[Scott Kiesling]

This, by the way, is not something he would say.

[Yowei Shaw]

Excuse me? Why?

[Scott Kiesling]

This is incredible.

[Jason Stewart]

Probably.

[Scott Kiesling]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. I'm glad you can tell me that. All right. Cool.

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Right?

[Scott Kiesling]

You probably can't even imagine him saying that, right?

[Yowei Shaw]

No, I can't. This is incredible.

[Scott Kiesling]

There you go.

[Yowei Shaw]

Rude. Okay, fine.

[Scott Kiesling]

But that's You. That's fine. Say however you want to talk. If we all talk the same, the world would be a really boring place.

[Yowei Shaw]

After the break. Time to cross into hostile territory. Hello, it's Yowei again, poking in to say if this episode made you think of a bro you need help communicating with or a friend who has trouble talking to that bro, maybe send them this episode. They'll probably get a kick out of it. Also, we are an independent show, and that's how most people find us. So thanks. Okay. Ads. I knew I needed to talk to a bro. A real bro, a scary bro. A bro with no personal or professional allegiance to me, who could tell me everything I was doing wrong and what I needed to change. And it occurred to me that I spend hours every week listening to the perfect proxy candidate. This guy.

[Jason Stewart]

I. I think that karaoke should have an eject button.

[Yowei Shaw]

His name is Jason Stewart. He's a podcaster and DJ who I find very, very funny. He has this podcast called How Long Gone? Where he and his friend Chris Black shoot the shit three times a week and argue about what's cool and not cool.

[Jason Stewart]

I listen to music on my. On my computer like a normal person. I don't care. Some people are fine with Taco Bell, you know? You.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah, they talk about pop culture and music. They constantly reference lyrics that I never get.

[Jason Stewart]

Sounds like a nav lyric, but, yeah,

[Yowei Shaw]

they talk about routines like supplements, diet, workouts.

[Jason Stewart]

I'm getting a little bulkier by the day. I'm joking. Pilates isn't helping. I think your string bean figure is part of your charm and personality, but

[Yowei Shaw]

then also a lot about fine dining and fashion.

[Jason Stewart]

Is there anything that you can do to de itch a sweater? Not to go menswear guy on you, but if I. I just got a great sweater. JJ. Crew Vintage XLT. Fits me like a glove. Perfecto. But it's got a little scratch to it. Unfortunately, this is a Jason problem. You just gotta nut up.

[Yowei Shaw]

Which is maybe why, when I told Kyle about the podcast, he was like, this dude doesn't sound like a bro. And he demanded to listen to an episode to see if Jason passed the bro test.

[Jason Stewart]

Got a new TV yesterday, and I installed it on my wall. It took me about 14 seconds. Oh, okay. Big dick. All right. Setup was a snap. I just wanted to rub it in because you're always having TV mounting problems. Problems.

[Yowei Shaw]

And after just 10 seconds, Kyle was like, dude's a bro. I have to tell you that I don't particularly care about the things they talk about on the show. And there have been points when the podcast gets too bro for me, and I mean that in a derogatory sense. I've had to take breaks, but I always come back to me. What they do on the pod is best in class. Bro banter with an edge.

[Jason Stewart]

This Strokes record feels like somebody owes money.

[Yowei Shaw]

They don't play nice.

[Jason Stewart]

You mean like. Like child support, divorce, alimony kind of thing? Child support, divorce.

[Scott Kiesling]

And I'm not.

[Yowei Shaw]

They do dip into feelings sometimes.

[Jason Stewart]

Sometimes our guest cancels and we get sad. Sometimes our guest cancels and I get happy.

[Yowei Shaw]

So I suspected Jason would be brutally honest and feelings fluent enough to translate what was going on with Bea. And lucky for me, he agreed to talk. I was also terrified that the same thing might happen that always happens with Bea, but this time on a stage. So in the three minutes I was waiting for Jason to connect, to calm down, I did some whistling and humming to get my vagus nerve activated. And then, way too soon, a tall, well groomed, moisturized man with a beard pops up on the screen, his mouth full of something he's chewing. He flashes me a peace sign.

[Jason Stewart]

What up?

[Yowei Shaw]

Hi. I decide to start by laying my cards out on the table. Jason, I feel very nervous for this interview.

[Jason Stewart]

Really?

[Yowei Shaw]

I was telling my editor today. I was like, I think I'm more nervous talking to Jason Stewart than talking to the villain of this three part Series. I did.

[Jason Stewart]

How. How bad? How bad was the villain?

[Yowei Shaw]

He was pretty bad. Basically, he, like, created an online newspaper that was spreading misinformation.

[Jason Stewart]

So I'm more intimidating than Alex Jones, Is that what you're saying?

[Yowei Shaw]

I don't know if you've gotten that before.

[Jason Stewart]

No, I mean, I don't know if intimidating is the right word, but I'm easily bored when I talk to people, so I can come in a little not aggressive, but just like, I can be a little bit prickly if somebody's not giving me enough stimulation conversationally, you know?

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah, I have. I've noticed.

[Jason Stewart]

It's only because I want to push those who I love and care about, you know, further into their full potential that they haven't realized yet.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, well, you said somewhere that you think that a good interview involves foreplay.

[Jason Stewart]

I do not remember saying that, but sick.

[Yowei Shaw]

And that's not my style. I like to get right into it. Okay, so why did you say yes to this interview?

[Jason Stewart]

I said yes to doing this because the subject matter is near and dear to my heart. And then Ian, who introduced me to you, said that you are a legitimate podcast person who he respects, and I said, good enough for me. And then two hours ago, I was like, oh, yeah, I gotta do a podcast today on my day off from podcasting. Gotta do a podcast. But that's not your fault.

[Yowei Shaw]

You said that this subject is near and dear to your heart. What do you mean?

[Jason Stewart]

Bro stuff?

[Yowei Shaw]

Bro stuff. Okay.

[Jason Stewart]

The bro life.

[Yowei Shaw]

Jason hasn't always embraced the bro life.

[Jason Stewart]

Well, I grew up in Orange County, California, sort of the epicenter of bro culture on planet Earth, arguably. So I grew up sort of rebelling against that because I didn't really fit in. I wasn't like a surfer, skater, athletic, Orange county, blonde hair, blue eyed, rich kid kind of vibe.

[Yowei Shaw]

As soon as he could, Jason moved to LA to get away from the OC Bros and their snowboarding and Michelob Ultras. He was not like them. He was cultured into cool shit like Belle and Sebastian graffiti, Charles Shaw, red wine and vegan cooking. But at some point in his late 30s, Jason realized that being a bro was just part of his DNA. Like, I read this quote from him in Gossamer magazine where he said, quote, I have a good amount of bro in me, unfortunately, which I try to take advantage of. Bro was a derogatory term for a long time and something that I was against myself. But maybe being a bro isn't so bad. Anyone can be a bro. They could have bro tendencies without Being a terrible person. Ladies can be bros, and when they are bros, I call them bro. So. So what is a bro to you?

[Jason Stewart]

I guess qualities of being a bro. I mean, this is tough. I wish I would have sort of written down some answers and put some more thought into it, but I'll just freestyle it off the dome, which I guess is sort of bro y in nature. Maybe a lack of preparation and going with the flow. In essence, that things are probably all going to work out. As long as you're a good person with good energy, you value relaxation, friendship, good food, good music, you know, just arts and culture in general. Like, you make time for that.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah.

[Jason Stewart]

You don't take life super duper seriously.

[Yowei Shaw]

As he rattled off his bro criteria, I was like, this is exactly who Kyle's friend Bea is, to a T. It was uncanny. I tell Jason about my communication issues with Bea. Had you ever heard of someone having this conundrum before?

[Jason Stewart]

No, I don't think so. Especially not formally written in an email, but I don't think I've ever heard this arise, ever.

[Yowei Shaw]

My theory, after 12 years of thinking about this, is that he speaks bro and I speak feelings.

[Jason Stewart]

Wow. I like the binary that we've just created here, where you can either be a bro or have feelings, but neither at the same time.

[Yowei Shaw]

No, no, no. Okay, this is. We need to define terms.

[Jason Stewart]

I'm splitting hairs already. I'm sorry.

[Yowei Shaw]

We quibble for several minutes over my definition of bro speak, but eventually I get through to Jason. For example, my husband and his crew of music people, they used to come over to our house at, like, 5pm and. And then just, like, stand around a fire drinking beer, making each other laugh for hours. They will go until, like, 3:00am and then when Kyle gets back to bed the next morning, I'm like, tell me what's going on with this person? And he's like, I don't know. I'm like, well, come on, like, give me some more gossip. How's this person's relationship? And da, da, da. And he's like, we didn't talk about that. Mm. And I'm like, you were together for so many hours, and there's no personal

[Jason Stewart]

content because bros don't really care. Bros don't care that much. They don't care what's happening with your girlfriend's brother.

[Yowei Shaw]

Really?

[Jason Stewart]

Bros are trying to catch a buzz by the fire. I want to joke around with my favorite peeps for seven hours.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jason Stewart]

Do a little drug. Do a little hacky sack. Do a little coors. Lite sash. And then during that magical moment where we're laughing and having the best time in our life, we're not thinking about the serious emotional issues going on in their lives, whatever it may be.

[Yowei Shaw]

That's what I mean by speaking bro. And that's the thing that I don't know how to do.

[Jason Stewart]

How to avoid caring about the tea

[Yowei Shaw]

so much, because that's the thing that interests me. That's the first thing that I would talk about with my friends. We would make an agenda with bullet points. We literally say, add it to the agenda. All of our personal gossip that we want to talk about. And it's not always like our personal lives. It's like a stupid article someone wrote.

[Jason Stewart]

We have to talk about Gia Tolentino and whatever, you know? So these are just two very different worlds. It's a group of people who are casual, go with the flow. I don't want to think about it. I don't want to plan. The idea of having a hangout sesh with your friends being a homework assignment with an agenda and an Excel spreadsheet sounds like the antithesis of what the bro is. After the time with your friends where you're hanging out, shooting the shit, smoking doobies, you don't want to fucking do the bullet point list. It's not a book report club.

[Yowei Shaw]

But that is so fun. That is us shooting the shit in my friend group.

[Jason Stewart]

You guys are nerds. That's why. I mean, if we're going to stereotype groups with a singular word like a bro, you guys are nerds.

[Yowei Shaw]

No, no, no.

[Jason Stewart]

I have a type for this, though. For what you are describing the scenario with your friend group, it could be considered offensive to someone, but I like to label these people producer chicks.

[Yowei Shaw]

What's a producer?

[Jason Stewart]

Chicken is a chick who is oftentimes a producer in life, in their profession, their career, whatever. They're organized. They have written agendas and goals. They're very gung ho about making sure they go to the dentist on time.

[Yowei Shaw]

You have me pegged wrong. You have me pegged wrong. I'm extremely disorganized. I'm only organized at my job, and then I'm a complete mess everywhere else.

[Jason Stewart]

Okay?

[Yowei Shaw]

And my friends, they're not good at that stuff either. It's more just when you get together with your friends, you want to catch up. I want to find out, like, how is my friend doing? What's going on with this? What about this person that has a crush on you that doesn't seem like being a nerd to Me.

[Jason Stewart]

No, that's true. I agree with that. I agree with that.

[Yowei Shaw]

Producer chicks. That's so funny. That's going to haunt me. Oh, my God.

[Jason Stewart]

Well, what do you do on this podcast? That's your job.

[Yowei Shaw]

Well, of course I am a producer. You know what? My husband wishes I was more of a producer chicken. He does all the, like, heavy lifting

[Jason Stewart]

around the logistical things.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah, he's always trying to plan shit. I'm like, I just stop. I can't. I don't want to hear about it.

[Jason Stewart]

Well, I think we're learning that you might be a little producer chick star, but a bro chick rising. You know, you have that in you. One of your moons has bro potential. This caterpillar needs to turn into a little bro y butterfly.

[Yowei Shaw]

I was flattered that he saw that potential in me, that I'm a bro chick rising. But it also did not feel accurate, especially when I think back on a recent interaction I had with Bea. Like, you know, recently, we were at a show. Hello, hello, hug. He's like, why am I seeing you out of the recording booth? I was like, yeah, somehow Kyle let me out of the house. And then he makes another joke, and then I don't know how to respond.

[Jason Stewart]

He hits the ball back to you. And then you said, I didn't know this was going to be a game now.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yes, yes, yes. And I'm trying to ask him, like, how are you doing with, like, how did it go? Like, how are you feeling about it? And then whenever I ask him a direct question, he deflects with a joke.

[Jason Stewart]

Mm. Mm. Bro don't want to talk about it. Bro wants to enjoy the show.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay.

[Jason Stewart]

Bro's been working hard every day. You know what he wants to do not think about it.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, Okay. I think this.

[Jason Stewart]

I'm not. I'm not. This is not a confrontational thing. I'm just.

[Yowei Shaw]

No, this is helpful.

[Jason Stewart]

Stepping into the potential mind of his bro.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah, no, this is helpful because I'm trying to make a connection with him through my way of connecting. And he's like, that's not an appropriate topic of conversation for the setting.

[Jason Stewart]

So I guess this is user error on your part. You know, if you and him go get matcha latte and curl up by the fire, now it's time for us to discuss the real things in life and what's going on with this and blah, blah, blah, and get deeper. If we're at a show, we got a couple beers in us, we want to watch some bands, we're here to crack some jokes. Surface level convo. We're talking over hundreds of people and music. Now is not the time to go, tell me how you really feel. And then you go, what, do you want to have a cigarette? Not what.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jason Stewart]

So part of the bro, the bro skill is knowing what to talk about in what setting.

[Yowei Shaw]

And I'm assuming mostly it's not to get to that level.

[Jason Stewart]

No, it's not where you start.

[Yowei Shaw]

You'd have to like warm up to it.

[Jason Stewart]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'd have, you know, foreplay, one could say.

[Yowei Shaw]

And that's not the goal normally of conversation, is to get there. The goal is generally to have a good time together.

[Jason Stewart]

In the mind of the bro, the word goal does not come to the equation of a convo unless it is a specifically sanctioned convo, like a meeting or a job interview or whatever. Okay, then we do have a goal and a directive. But if it's just like I ran into my friend at a restaurant, there is no goal for the bro. You're a plastic bag floating in the wind.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, this is why you were so allergic to my friend group agenda.

[Jason Stewart]

Yeah. It's wanting to. So for the mind of a bro who's just kind of free flowing, when the deep moments are going to come, he wants to be in control of it, make the set and setting correct and not just zip into a deep convo out of nowhere. Because certain personality types, like a producer,

[Yowei Shaw]

like a producer chick, like you said,

[Jason Stewart]

you want to go in there and find out this information from them. The same way an interview wants to ask a person a question and have them give me information. And in the mind of some people, like a bro, that's considered work. Stopping what you are doing, mentally going in a different direction now. And now we have to talk about this thing that I don't feel like talking about because it would be rude to say, I don't want to talk about that.

[Yowei Shaw]

Well, in his case, he doesn't. He just deflects.

[Jason Stewart]

He's the big dog saying, no, he's putting his paw down. And you're kind of, you're not a yappy Pomeranian. But you know, you're saying, hey, what about this? And what about this? And did you hear the tea on this guy? And I like this thing. And my mom did you see this movie? And you know, and this dog is just like, nah, bro, no, you got to chill.

[Yowei Shaw]

Oh my God, now Jason's calling me annoying. He's called me a Pomeranian producer chick and now I'm annoying. Okay, great.

[Jason Stewart]

But, but I think I think. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Yowei Shaw]

Don't forget that Jason has two ideas for me to try to connect with Bea. The first being to get into the same chemical headspace.

[Jason Stewart]

If he is a music bro who gathers around the fire and drinks beers and stuff like that, he's probably been in and around drug and drug use.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Jason Stewart]

So, you know, getting him on the right drug in the right setting at the right time, you could use that as a way to crack the egg and get into that deep ballute of him and explore. That's obviously a difficult thing and it's something that kind of just has to happen naturally and organically. I think if you orchestrate it karmically, it won't work out. Well.

[Yowei Shaw]

Yeah, it might be a crime.

[Jason Stewart]

No, no, no. I'm not saying roofie him into telling you his emotions. You know, if you guys are on the rock climbing trip in Joshua Tree and you doing mushrooms and you know, you can lead him to water, you can't make him drink, but, you know, maybe he'll start sipping one night.

[Yowei Shaw]

Jason's second idea is to be a hater.

[Jason Stewart]

I've found that the easiest way and the fastest way to bond with another person who you don't have much in common is over things that you dislike, not things that you are into. So if you were able to think of a witty retort or an observation about someone or something that he strongly dislikes in the way that his brain also sees, and it's a way that he's never thought of or observed before, he will look at you in a different way for at least six months.

[Yowei Shaw]

The uniting power of being a hater.

[Jason Stewart]

Yes.

[Yowei Shaw]

Do you think it's possible for me to learn how to speak Brown?

[Jason Stewart]

I think it is. And maybe a good way for you to do it would be instead of drugging him, drugging yourself, maybe. You got to break that brain a little bit.

[Yowei Shaw]

I do try to be two drinks to the wind every time I see him because they're trying to make it a little lubricated.

[Jason Stewart]

Damn. I mean, you shouldn't even be thinking about that.

[Yowei Shaw]

I shouldn't be.

[Jason Stewart]

You're approaching it with such, with such nervous energy, like you're gonna, you know, go on stage in front of a thousand people and, you know, do a live stand up set. You're planning how many drinks you're gonna have before you talk to a bro. You know, these are thoughts that shouldn't be entering your mind.

[Yowei Shaw]

Wow.

[Jason Stewart]

And I don't mean that in an insultary way whatsoever.

[Yowei Shaw]

No, no, no.

[Jason Stewart]

I'm trying to get down to the fundamental root causes working, you know, bottom to top.

[Yowei Shaw]

Do you have any yo ways in your life, people who are unable to speak bro or do you try to avoid them?

[Jason Stewart]

No, there are people in my life. No, no, no. I have people in my life who do not speak a word of bro. And I find it fascinating, like when you see, you know, the albino penguin at the zoo or whatever, I'm like, I want to get one of those. Well, I guess maybe without naming names, but knowing Chris, he lives in New York, he's part of a different friend group. It's a high fashion, art world kind of crowd. And I can sort of be oil and water with some of the people in those sets every once in a while. And I get a kick out of talking to those people who are just, you know, wildly opposite from me, just from like a pure entertainment standpoint and seeing, you know, if I can crack them, seeing if I could find some common ground.

[Yowei Shaw]

Is there anyone of consequence you've had this issue with?

[Jason Stewart]

I would say just off the top of my mind, my wife's dad.

[Yowei Shaw]

Interesting.

[Jason Stewart]

We have, well, we have a lot of things in common, but none of them are really tangible. We're both born on the same day, same zodiac sign year. So we have a lot of through lines and similarities in our personality. So we can kind of bond and connect there. But he's a 70 year old Vietnamese aerospace engineer who fled the country and came here on a boat and picked strawberries in the 70s and worked his way up to where he is. So we have nothing in common there. His level of bro speak is pretty zero. He's generally a man of few words, a very quiet, stoic person. And even though I talk for a living, I'm sort of like that when I'm not doing that. It's really kind of one or the other. So we were both okay with not getting to know each other. It was like a little standoff almost.

[Yowei Shaw]

Whoa.

[Jason Stewart]

Just like, you think you don't give a shit. Just wait till you see how much I don't give a shit, you know, so it was kind of that. But then, you know, I was definitely more chatty and a little bit more trying to connect than him, which is, you know, par for the course for this type of situation. It's, it's more my job to do than, than his. But yeah, it was just sort of a lot of one word answers and just the classic dad stuff. Write a cool sentence and get the thumbs up. Emoji back.

[Yowei Shaw]

The thumbs up emoji is so brutal. My mom, she wields the thumbs up emoji like a weapon.

[Jason Stewart]

And you'll do it, too, once you get older. The thumb comes for all of us. Trust me. I'm starting to understand the joy of hitting somebody with a motherfucking thumbs up. It can be a sobering experience to get thumbed up.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, so you were getting the thumbs up.

[Jason Stewart]

Yeah. It was a long time to really get some common ground. And I remember the thing that happened, the breakthrough moment. We were at dinner and her mom was, like, saying something. Her mom was, like, telling a story, and it was, like, sort of contradictory to something that she had said earlier. And I made, like, a little aside that I would say on the podcast. A little something for the listener to giggle. I don't remember what it was, and he probably was thinking it, but he wasn't going to say anything. Maybe a younger version of him would. But I said the thing that he was thinking, and he looked at me as if like, oh, my God, you get it. It was like it crossed language and cultural and generational barriers. And that was the first after the meal, normally when we say goodbye, I'll give his mom a hug. And then with him, maybe like a little pounded out bro or like a little handshake. And that was the first time, the handshake. And then the little. The hand came around for the little, Little bro side hug.

[Yowei Shaw]

Oh, my God. That's what I want.

[Jason Stewart]

But going back to when we had that breakthrough moment at the restaurant where I made him chuckle fur roasting his wife, it was one of those things where you act without thinking. It's just all body. It's all reflex. You're thinking about this too much, and that's the problem. So you got to just get out of your head and just, like, blurt something out and not be afraid of it falling on its face. Because if it falls on its face and everyone laughs because you're stupid, then everyone laughed and it was a stupid moment. And then he'll say, wow, you're not afraid of looking like a fucking idiot. I like you a little bit more now.

[Yowei Shaw]

Okay, I would like to end this conversation by just stating for the record that I don't know that he is annoyed with me. I don't think that's what's going on, but I understand the takeaway.

[Jason Stewart]

Yeah, I don't think that he is consciously annoyed by you. Just to be clear, I'm speaking on, like, an atomic level of connection.

[Yowei Shaw]

We Wrapped up our conversation. And what happened next was extremely confusing to me. I stumbled out of my recording booth, my head swirling. It occurred to me that the interview had not gone at all the way I'd planned. Like a third of my questions we didn't get to. I wanted to play audio clips. We didn't get to that. I wanted to do some light role play. We didn't get to that either. None of it. The producer chickened me, started to panic. What the fuck just happened? I lost control of the entire conversation. I went downstairs to my husband Kyle, popped open a bottle of Prosecco, and proceeded to have a meltdown. All the things Jason had said about me reverberating in my head. I'm annoying. I'm a nerd. I'm a Pomeranian. Who says shit like that? I was like, this guy's an asshole. But then on Monday morning, something weird happened. I started listening back to the tape to make this episode, and I was shocked. She wields the thumbs up emoji like a weapon. I heard something very different from what I remembered.

[Jason Stewart]

And you'll do it, too. Once you get older, the thumb comes for all of us.

[Yowei Shaw]

Trust me, Jason didn't sound like an asshole.

[Jason Stewart]

This caterpillar needs to turn into a little bro y butterfly.

[Yowei Shaw]

Jason was being generous and kind.

[Jason Stewart]

Well, I think we're learning that you might have a producer chick star, but a bro chick rising.

[Yowei Shaw]

And those insults.

[Jason Stewart]

You guys are nerds.

[Yowei Shaw]

That was Jason bro ing out with me. They were Terms of Endearment. He was having fun. And even more confusing, I sounded like I was having fun. Producer chicks. That's so funny. That's gonna haunt me. Oh, my God.

[Jason Stewart]

Well, what do you do on this podcast? That's your job.

[Yowei Shaw]

Well, of course. I am a producer. You know what my husband wishes I was more of a producer chick. It was a new kind of fun. It was competitive, kind of aggressive. I felt like I had to be on my toes the whole time. But there was pleasure in that feeling. It was stimulating. I realized maybe that's why my body went through a state of shock, because was I speaking bro for the first time? Listening back, I was not doing it well, but I was doing it. And I was surprised to hear that I was able to make Jason laugh. And at times, I was keeping up. And I had this thought, I don't think I'm going to be able to effectively talk to Bea just yet. But I could see myself trying that again. I just need reps. Thank you to Jason Stewart for being my proxy bro. His podcast is called How Long Gone? I recommend it and thank you to our bro, linguist Scott Kiesling. You can learn more about his work on how dudes [e-mail] we'll have those links in our show notes. Proxy will be back on Tuesday, June 2 and every other Tuesday till summer. Follow the show so you don't miss the next case. And if you're new here, I recommend trying Bisexual Wife Guy. It's one of the clearest examples of what the show does. Proxy is an independent show, which means it grows almost entirely by word of mouth. So if this episode made you think of a bro or someone who is having trouble connecting with that bro, maybe start the conversation by sending them this episode. If you want to step deeper into the proxyverse, go to proxyhq.org that's where you'll find our free newsletter file under Feelings, which is full of episode liner notes, show gossip and dispatches from the emotions beat. And if you want to help Proxy keep going in a world where a third of all new podcasts are apparently AI generated, consider becoming a paid member. Paid members get ad free listening, live proxy hangs and bonus episodes. This Thursday, paid members are getting a bonus episode with Scott Kiesling where we go way deeper into bro speak. The emotional rules underneath. That's cool. The importance of movie quotes and talking about nothing as connection. Again, just go to proxyhq.org thank you to everyone who's already become a member. This show is made by one full time person, me and extremely part time collaborators. Your support makes all of this possible. This episode was edited by Tim Howard, mixed by Kyle Pooley and produced by me. Our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Special thanks to Ian Wheeler. Truxie is a proud member of Radiotopia from prx, a network of independent creator owned listener supported podcasts. Audrey Martovich is the executive producer of Radiotopia. Yuri Lozorto is the director of operations Discover Audio with vision at Radiotopia. You can follow us on Instagram ProxyPodcast and I'm awayshaw. And remember, if you have a niche emotional conundrum you would like investigated by Proxy, get in [e-mail] we're taking cases. Okay, thanks for being here guys. I don't think he listens to the podcast but how do you think he would feel knowing that I'm going on this quest?

[Jason Stewart]

Oh my God.

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

I don't know. If I were him I would feel maybe a little embarrassed. I would also feel like incredulous. Like what do you mean, like, of course we, you know, talk.

[Yowei Shaw]

Do you think it would ruin my chances at trying to connect?

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Maybe.

[Yowei Shaw]

You think so? Really?

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

Well, maybe not ruin it, but I think it would. I. I think it would make it, like, a little awkward, but it might also be, like, you could get meta and just talk about it, like, as a joke. Maybe that's the goal, is if you could explain this in a way that's, like, funny and diffuses, like, the emotional weight.

[Yowei Shaw]

God damn it.

[Scott Kiesling]

Radiotopia

[Kyle (Yowei's husband)]

from PRX.