Yowei Used to Hide Her Husband Kyle (from Love Letters)

Summary

Proxy with Yowei Shaw – Episode: "Yowei Used to Hide Her Husband Kyle" (From Love Letters, April 7, 2026)

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Brief Overview

In this emotionally honest crossover episode, Yowei Shaw (host of Proxy and former Invisibilia co-host) and her husband Kyle candidly discuss a period in their relationship when Yowei hid Kyle from her queer friends out of anxiety and shame about her own queerness. The episode, initially aired on the Love Letters podcast with Boston Globe columnist Meredith Goldstein, cleverly unpacks the emotional complexities around queer identity, internalized shame, couple privilege, and the sometimes messy process of embracing one's authentic self within relationships. Through storytelling and first-person reflection, this episode examines what happens when hiding becomes a coping mechanism, how it affects loved ones, and how repair and growth look in real time.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Listener Feedback & Show Dynamics

• Yowei and Kyle open by addressing a four-star iTunes review critiquing the frequent on-mic "husband chit chat."
  • The reviewer expressed jealousy at Yowei’s ability to rely on Kyle and labeled it "tacky." (01:03)
  • Yowei candidly admits this was a real fear and acknowledges her "couple privilege." (01:57)
  • Quote:
    Yowei: “It would in fact be impossible for me to make this show without your help. It is a huge privilege.” (01:57)

2. Love Letters Context & Introduction

• Meredith Goldstein of Love Letters sets up the framing question: “Is having a boyfriend embarrassing?” referencing a viral Vogue essay and its cultural aftermath. (04:35–05:54)
• They acknowledge how some women, especially queer women, may "hide" their male partners to escape association with heteronormative structures.

3. Yowei’s Story: Exploring Queer Identity

• Yowei recounts her early attraction to multiple genders and her attempts to date women.
  • Awkwardness and rejection marked her early formative experiences.
  • Quote:
    Yowei: “I feel like I am like a baby deer trying to stand up on ice.” (09:17)
• After multiple failed attempts to initiate romantic relationships with women, she meets Kyle. (11:34)

4. Falling in Love with Kyle

• A charming recollection of their first dates: biking, heart-to-heart talks on an abandoned bridge, and shared circles of friends. (11:45–14:19)
• Kyle is immediately characterized as supportive, organized, and a caregiver—a contrast to Yowei's discomfort with domesticity.

5. Queerness "Paused" and Later Reclaimed

• Despite happiness with Kyle, Yowei describes her queerness as something she "paused" for years (15:21) out of fear and uncertainty.
• A turning point arrives around their engagement (2019):
  • She realizes her queer identity matters, and she wants to reconnect with it, including joining queer communities. (15:21–16:43)
  • Quote:
    Yowei: “I need to attend to this. And like, Kyle, you need to know this. This is back, and I want to, like, explore this again.” (15:21)

6. The Era of Hiding Kyle

• In a bid to fully belong to her new queer friend group, Yowei deliberately omits or obscures Kyle’s role in her life.
  • She leaves him home from parties, asks him to vacate their space during gatherings, and refrains from posting about him anywhere. (16:43–18:09)
  • Awkward moments ensue—like the infamous “hot pot night” when, attempting to host without him, Yowei burns a hole through their table due to a mishap. (18:09–19:17)
  • Quote:
    Yowei: “I would tell Kyle to get lost. Like, I would make him vacate the vicinity like his own home.” (18:09)

7. Consequences and Realizations

• The aftermath of hiding: Friends notice the weirdness, questioning, “Does Yowei always treat Kyle this way?” (19:35)
• Yowei has a “wake up call”: Her efforts to appear authentically queer result instead in treating her loving partner poorly. (20:31)
  • She reflects on her lifelong tendencies to hide as a survival mechanism, rooted in her upbringing and immigrant household. (22:00)
  • Quote:
    Yowei: “Hiding is just ... it is very core to my identity. I’ve always been a hider.” (22:00)

8. From Guilt to Repair

• [24:13–25:31] The table with the scorch mark becomes a talisman—a physical reminder of guilt and her "black spot of conscience."
• Yowei admits she never really apologized to Kyle for these years; most conversations were jokes, not earnest repair.
  • [26:01] “We’ve only talked about it in the form of, like, a joke... I have never apologized for my behavior. So that is not good behavior. I ... think I should apologize.”

9. Kyle’s Perspective

• Kyle describes being asked to leave, feeling a bit confused but ultimately going along, perceiving their relationship as a "long negotiation." (28:38)
  • Recounts the awkwardness of interrupting gatherings and the “hot pot table” incident from his viewpoint. (29:56)
  • Quote:
    Kyle: “For some reason, I think Yowei or they misheard me and thought I said, like, ‘it’s just me, Yohei’s white boyfriend.’ And they all, like, stared daggers at me. I was like, ah, I’m sorry. I’ll just go upstairs.” (29:50)
  • Despite annoyance, Kyle frames it as “just one of those things you deal with in marriage.” (38:50)

10. Societal and Internalized Pressures

• Meredith and Yowei ponder the viral “Is Having a Boyfriend Embarrassing?” headline, discussing societal baggage around heteronormativity, couple privilege, and queer identity. (31:34–35:59)
  • Yowei concludes her anxiety stemmed from wanting “to appear good, or right … whether I was queer enough” and now feels less preoccupied about external acceptance.

11. A True Apology

• Yowei, prompted by the podcast discussion, makes her first sincere apology to Kyle on the record. (37:03–38:33)
  • Yowei: “I would like to take this opportunity on this podcast ... I’m sorry that I hid you. I’m sorry that I felt ever embarrassed of you ... I’m sorry that I tried to hide you from new friends ... And that I would make you leave our house … And I’m sorry I prevented you from coming to events ... because I was trying to hide you.” (37:03–38:33)
  • Kyle: “Yeah, but ... I mean, yeah. At some point I did … It did register, and it was kind of annoying, but like, I don’t know. That’s marriage.” (38:50)
  • Kyle accepts the apology, both express relief at leaving that dynamic behind.

12. Moving Forward & Embracing Imperfections

• The story comes full circle: Now, instead of hiding Kyle, Yowei openly includes him on Proxy, “parading” him on the podcast—a complete 180. (39:35)
  • Yowei: “It’s essentially the opposite of hiding you. I’m now parading you around on the podcast.” (39:35)
  • They reference the burnt table as a memento, now even memorialized as an art object by a friend. (40:14)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On couple privilege:
  “It would in fact be impossible for me to make this show without your help. It is a huge privilege. ... couple privilege is a thing, right?” – Yowei (01:57)
• On failed queer dating:
  “I feel like I am like a baby deer trying to stand up on ice.” – Yowei (09:17)
• On internalized hiding:
  “Hiding is just ... it is very core to my identity. I’ve always been a hider. Growing up with Taiwanese immigrant parents, you know, like I always hid shit.” – Yowei (22:00)
• On self-realization:
  “That was a turning point. ... I’m the asshole, so I need to like change my behavior.” – Yowei (20:59)
• Kyle’s dry humor:
  “If you did [apologize], it’s not memorable enough.” – Kyle (36:59)
• On public displays:
  “It’s essentially the opposite of hiding you. I’m now, like, parading you around on the podcast.” – Yowei (39:35)
• On embracing flaws:
  “Now there’s this … black circle … It is a reminder of this, like, black spot on my conscience.” – Yowei (25:09)
• On artistic reconciliation:
  “One of our friends from that night memorialized the table and made an exact replica … with the black circle a little off center as a gift to memorialize that night.” – Yowei (40:14)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:03 – Rock Swell’s review and intro to the show’s ‘behind the scenes’ dynamic.
• 03:06 – Admission: Yowei used to hide Kyle, the genesis of today’s story.
• 07:21 – Yowei’s early awareness of queerness.
• 09:17–11:45 – Yowei’s attempts at queer dating → meeting Kyle.
• 13:43–15:21 – Courtship with Kyle; growing relationship.
• 15:21–16:43 – The decision to “pause” queerness, then reengage with it.
• 16:43–18:09 – The start of “hiding Kyle” and its logistical challenges.
• 18:09–20:31 – The hot pot disaster; friends notice the awkwardness.
• 22:00 – Yowei reflects on her lifelong habit of hiding.
• 24:13–25:09 – The burnt table as physical/emotional memento.
• 26:01–26:32 – Meredith prompts Yowei to apologize to Kyle.
• 28:38–29:50 – Kyle’s recollection of being asked to leave, “sweaty boyfriend”/“white boyfriend” misunderstanding.
• 31:34–35:59 – Cultural analysis of boyfriend/husband embarrassment and heteronormativity.
• 37:03–38:33 – Yowei’s sincere apology to Kyle on air.
• 39:35 – New dynamic: Kyle featured on Proxy.
• 40:14 – The burnt table memorialized in miniature.

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Flow & Tone

The episode flows as a blend of self-deprecating humor, warmth, and raw honesty—true to both Yowei and Kyle’s personalities and the emotionally investigative spirit of Proxy. It doesn’t shy away from vulnerability or from excavating uncomfortable truths, but softens the blow with wit, deep affection, and a sense of growth.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

• The Takeaway:
  This episode is an unusually honest account of the fraught intersections of couple privilege, queer identity, self-worth, and relationship negotiation. It explores both the harm and humor in our coping habits, ultimately landing on forgiveness, growth, and the beauty in embracing all parts of oneself—including one’s partner and shared past mistakes.
• If you’ve ever worried about being "enough" for a community, loved one, or yourself—this conversation will resonate.

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Episode Impact

By the end, Yowei explicitly moves from “hiding Kyle” to featuring him as an integral part of her creative and personal life—burnt table, flawed hosting, and all—offering a model for imperfect but whole-hearted self-acceptance.

Transcript

[A]

All right, Kyle, say who you are.

[B]

For everyone who doesn't know you, my name's Kyle. We are married. I am the mixing engineer of Proxy. I am the intern of Proxy. I do craft services on top of your actual job.

[A]

Thank you very much for your service.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So we are coming back with new cases in mid April. Everyone follow the show so new cases land in your feed. In the meantime, we have a special treat for everyone listening today. It's a story that has to do with us.

[C]

Kyle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you feel about this?

[B]

You know, it's just another. I just keep getting dragged into being on the mic, so slightly reluctant.

[A]

So you remember that, like, somebody wrote a review of Proxy on Apple podcasts a little while ago.

[B]

It is perhaps an infamous review, at

[A]

least in our household. Do you want to read it?

[B]

Yeah. All right. So the reviewer's screen name is Rock Swell and the title with four stars says, great, but a little too much quote behind the scenes. I like Proxy. I think it's an interesting concept and well executed and it helps guests and listeners. But the reason I haven't listened beyond a few episodes is is mostly that Yowei keeps including clips of asking her husband to do things for the show. I appreciate the difficulty of running an independent operation and I don't mind that she talks about that and fundraises for the podcast, but to be perfectly honest, the husband chit chat evokes feelings of jealousy as a single independent creative in parentheses quote. I definitely get more done creatively if I had a skilled and loving husband doing free labor. End quote. Also, I find it a little tacky.

[A]

Tacky.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Oh my God. I mean, this was totally a fear of mine. I think this reviewer is right. It is a lot easier for me. It would in fact be impossible for me to make this show without your help. It is a huge privilege. I mean, couple privilege is a thing, right? But also, I don't know, why do I include these clips? That's a good question. I just think it's interesting to pull back the curtain on making a scrappy independent podcast. And also, it's just real. This is our dynamic. I just think it's funny how annoyed and resigned you are to your fate. I might not always include it, but for now, you're making the cut.

[B]

Well, yeah. So trigger warning. If you are like this person and you're feeling annoyed, you might want to skip this episode.

[A]

Or maybe we'll help you understand a little bit of the psychology and drama behind why it's kind of a big deal. That I have you on the show so much, considering what I used to do with you.

[B]

You mean when you used to hide me?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Perhaps one could call this an overcorrection to some historical injustices.

[B]

I was being hidden in the shadows, and now I'm out in the open.

[A]

That is what today's episode is about. It comes from Love Letters, this podcast where Boston Globe columnist Meredith Goldstein, she explores matters of the heart. You know, dating, relationships, sex, loss, and she also gives a side of advice. It's a great show. Meredith is endlessly wise. She's such a good interviewer. She's just really funny. Every time I listen to the show, I feel like I'm getting a hug and gems of advice to take with me into the world and my relationships. You just listened to the episode, right?

[B]

I did.

[A]

What do you think?

[B]

You know, I enjoyed it, minus, you know, the cringy aspect of listening to a podcast about myself or us.

[A]

I really cannot believe that we went on a podcast to talk about this, but here we are.

[B]

You know, I think if you're asking people to divulge things about their lives, I think, you know, sometimes you gotta do it yourself. You know, you gotta put your money where your mouth is.

[A]

Well, here is Meredith Goldstein from Love Letters telling the story of how I used to hide you.

[B]

Now, let's listen.

[C]

In our last episode, we talked to Shantae Joseph, the woman who wrote the Vogue essay. Is having a boyfriend embarrassing? Now? For those who may have forgotten, Shantae said in her essay that she was noticing that straight women were beginning to hide their boyfriends on social media. She wanted to know why these women seemed to be ashamed of having a male partner. She figured maybe it was because their boyfriends did embarrassing things. But more likely, it pointed to a larger issue, that perhaps there was a new strong need to distance oneself from a heteronormative structure that maybe once gave you clout to be a part of, but in this era feels sort of cringe for some reason.

[B]

Our relationships still have these really archaic basic setups that we are all, like,

[C]

kind of just mindlessly subscribing to.

[B]

And so it kind of, yeah, it does feel like a bit like a relic of the past in some ways, the way we do straight relationships.

[C]

Shantae's essay went viral. I would say mega viral. There was also some aftermath. A lot of people had opinions.

[A]

Having a boyfriend is embarrassing only if he is embarrassing. Are you embarrassed that deep down you want a boyfriend?

[C]

Because I don't think that having a

[A]

boyfriend is the issue?

[C]

Women post a picture of a guy,

[A]

they lose market share on Instagram.

[C]

Simple as fucking that.

[A]

That's all there is.

[C]

If you haven't listened to the last episode with Shantae's interview, I I highly recommend it. After this Today we're going to dive into the nuance of this question by telling you a story. It's about a woman who was embarrassed by her boyfriend for reasons that might surprise you. From the Boston Globe, this is Love Letters. I'm Meredith Goldstein. I want you to meet Yowei Shaw, longtime producer and host of NPR's Invisibilia, who now produces and hosts the podcast Proxy. Proxy is about answering niche emotional questions through conversations with strangers who have shared experience. I'm going to be an upcoming guest on Proxy. Basically, I'll get to work out one of my ongoing issues with a literal proxy, a stranger with relevant experience to me. And my problem More to come on that for now. Yowei's story. When Yowei was a kid, she had crushes on lots of people.

[A]

I like, really had a thing for this guy in the Chinese Christian Church in Houston, Texas. He was so hot. And I joined the Chinese Christian Church of Houston, Texas, just to be more attractive to him and got into like Bible study. I went to church. Impact. I, like, basically, yeah, joined a religion to try to get with a crush. It didn't really work. And I kind of realized that I wasn't just attracted to boys. In high school, I would say romantically, I was always like envisioning, oh, I'm gonna like, get married and like, be with a dude. But there was this girl in high school that I was just like, so attracted to and like, I don't know, I just, I just kind of like knew early on that I was into girls as well.

[C]

Yowei explores her interest in women a little as she gets older.

[A]

In college, I continued to date boys, but I also liked girls. I would hook up with girls, but I wouldn't date them.

[C]

Things change after college. When Yowei is more of an adult. I'll let her set the scene. She's in her mid-20s at this point.

[A]

It's like the beginning of summer and I have just gone through like a string of disappointing situationships and boyfriends and I'm like, okay, this is it. This is my opportunity to finally explore dating women. I know I've been interested in women. I've hooked up with women. But like, I've never dated romantically and like, I want to try it.

[C]

She's on OkCupid. She opens the dating app to men and women. She also tries to pursue a crush in her circle.

[A]

I start trying, but I feel I am like a baby deer trying to stand up on ice. You know, One of the first attempts at trying is I have this new friend who I have a really big crush on. We end up hanging out on my birthday. We go to the art museum instead of going back home to my birthday dinner where my friends are waiting for me. I decide to walk her home and then I, like, tell her my feelings eventually. And she's like, you're straight. Which, like, fair enough. Fair enough.

[C]

It's at this point where Love Letters producer Jasmine pops in to remind us all it is not cool to assume someone's sexuality by their inexperience, their nervousness, their general vibe.

[A]

Not fair enough. That's fucked up.

[C]

It is fucked up.

[A]

That's very sweet of you, but, you know, I don't. I get. I understand not wanting to be someone's experiment. Not that I was experimental. Like, you know, I feel like it was very obvious to clock me, though, as, like, a new baby queer. I cannot stress to you enough how much I liked this person. I really, really liked her. And I was devastated. I failed. I failed miserably. I just didn't know how to flirt with women. I was probably just giving, like, straight girl in my presentation, my language. I don't know if I had the right game and I just was not giving the right signals.

[C]

I think Yowei keeps trying. She's really keeping her eye on women and sends messages trying to set up

[A]

dates, striking out with women on the app. I would start a lot of conversations with women. I was, like, trying to prioritize women, but it was harder to get dates with women. I was, like, experiencing the same challenge that a lot of men experience on online dating apps with women. I did manage to get a date with a woman on OkCupid, and I did manage to get a kiss at the end of the date. And she was really nice, but there was just no spark. And then pretty early into this, like, single sapphic try, I met Kyle.

[C]

Isn't it always the way when you're a queer woman finally looking to date a woman, doesn't it just always happen that the person you match with is a man named Kyle?

[A]

He was cute. I recognized his band from his profile photo. And we met up and the first date was pretty meh, honestly. We just didn't click for whatever reason, but it was, like, enough chemistry to go on another date. So in my profile, I said something Like, I want you to take me on trips. And so on the second date, that's what Kyle did. He was like, we're gonna bike somewhere. He bought a six pack. We biked to this old train trestle. He took my hand. We climbed through a fence. He took out his phone, used the flashlight. He had bug spray. And we, like, walked through these weeds and grass to this rickety old bridge. And we sat on this bridge, drank beers, and had, like, a really nice heart to heart where we really connected. And then all of a sudden, this, like, figure appeared in the distance in the darkness. And we were like, oh, my God, who is this? And then the figure came closer and closer. And then I realized, oh, it's my old friend David from the bike co op that I used to work at. I was like, hi, David. And then so David and I caught up, and I think I got brownie points with Kyle for knowing the weird dude in the woods. And he got brownie points with me for being, like, very prepared with bug spray. I just remember being, like, very impressed with that detail. And then after that, it just quickly escalated. It's just very obvious. We were very into each other. Like, it was very easy.

[C]

Yowi starts to be with Kyle just for context. It's the summer of 2013. Yoi is still in her mid-20s. She spends more and more time with Kyle, and she really likes him. She remembers seeing his place for the first time.

[A]

He lived in this big artist warehouse. Graffiti and art everywhere. There was this huge swing in the middle of the space. And so when I rolled up with my friends, Kyle had gone out of his way to get beer for us. And, like, he gave us a tour and he stayed by our side the entire time and just made us feel very welcome. And I was like, oh, a guy who knows how to take care of my friends. That's a keeper. He's just someone who's very good at taking care of people. He's like a really good caregiver.

[C]

It seems like Kyle is meeting expectations Yowei didn't even know she had. He cooks, he makes plans.

[A]

I just get to have fun. This is easy. I'm in love. This is awesome.

[C]

The relationship continues to be good and it grows. They fall deeply in love in 2019, they get engaged and make plans to get married. Yowei's in her 30s at this point. But here's the thing. It's around this point when Yowei realizes that despite all of this happiness in her relationship, there's still something lingering under the surface. The better Part of a decade ago, when Yowei opened her options on OkCupid, changing her profile specs to match with women too, it wasn't just that she wanted to date women. It was that she was acknowledging that being queer is part of who she is. It's in 2019 that she starts to think to herself, shit, I was all ready to change my life, but then I met Kyle, and I kind of didn't need to.

[A]

I basically put the queer stuff on pause for a while, for years. And to be honest, the queer stuff was scary. It was scary, it was uncomfortable, it was hard. It was like, like, I know how to do this straight thing. I know how this works. I know the script. This is easy. And then several years into our relationship, I had this epiphany. It, like, hit me one night, oh, actually, this queer thing really does matter to me. I need to attend to this. And like, Kyle, you need to know this. Like, this is. This is back, and I want to, like, explore this again. I told him, he was happy for me, talked about it. That's also around the time that we got married, which made everything more complicated and heightened. Had that, oh, this is really important to me, and I need to explore this, and I want to find community and, like, I need to understand what this means as an identity.

[C]

You might ask, how does one explore their queerness as a woman? While having a male partner? For Yowei, community was key. She sets out to build a queer friend group, and she finds a particular crew she really likes and she tries to get into their scene.

[A]

I would say that's around the time when the, like, I'm embarrassed about having a boyfriend actually now husband feelings really started. Will these friends think I'm cool enough, queer enough, if I have have a husband now? And that's when I started hiding Kyle.

[C]

Hiding Kyle, a very good name for a band. So how do you hide a very serious partner? As Yowei aligns herself with this new queer network she's developing, she finds ways,

[A]

you know, kind of like maybe lying by omission. When I would go to events, go to music shows, go out dancing, you know, whatever events, potlucks. I would never go with Kyle. I would tell Kyle to stay at home for the most part. He'd be like, that's fine. I'm gonna go hang out with my friends. And I wouldn't want to go to that event anyways. But sometimes he would want to go because it'd be like a DJ that he'd been wanting to go see, and I'd Be like, sorry, you can't come because these are my queer friends. And, like, you can't come. He would be like, that's weird. Okay.

[C]

Yowei was never one to post about her relationships on social media, so the only way to know about Kyle was really to see him in person. So when Yowei invites her new queer friends over, she's very careful to make sure Kyle is not home.

[A]

I would tell Kyle to get lost. Like, I would make him vacate the vicinity like his own home. Which, you know, to be fair, like, that didn't happen that often because, like, I'm not that comfortable hosting. I get very flustered, you know, easily. I don't cook. In our house, he cooks. So I try not to host that often unless he's there. But this one time, I did host a hot pot for new queer friends. I told Kyle to scram, to not be around for the evening. And this led to two problems. Number one, hot pot involves, like, a heating element and a pot. And I was so flustered that I put the heating element upside down so that, like, we were waiting and waiting and waiting for the food to get cooked, but nothing was happening. And then eventually we smelled something burning. I had burned a hole, a big black hole into the table because I had put the heating element upside down. So. So that was a disaster.

[C]

Of course, most nights are normal for them. Yowei is not forcing Kyle to hide on the regular. They have family and shared friends and a life together. But nights where Kyle is not wanted do pop up. And it's weird. Yowei explains what happened when Kyle did finally get home on the hot pot night.

[A]

Kyle walked in the door and I was like, fight, flight. Freeze. I was just like. I froze. And I was like, oh, my God, my blood ran cold. And he just said a quick hello and just, like, walked upstairs. There was no kiss. There was no, can I introduce you to my friends? Would you like something to drink? Would you like something to eat? There was just none of that. It was a markedly odd interaction. And then later that night, my friend who was getting a ride with these new friends home told me that they asked her, does Yowei always treat Kyle this way? When I heard this, I was horrified. I was like, oh, my God, these friends that I've been trying to impress, like, I'm doing the opposite. I'm being an asshole. Like, I.

[C]

You're being an asshole.

[A]

I'm being an asshole. I'm treating this person who's so great, who I love, like, I'm not treating him right. And These new friends are noticing. They're clocking it.

[C]

This realization hits Yowei like a bag of bricks. She's been trying so hard to appeal to these new cool friends to feel authentic in her queerness, and instead they're noticing her treating someone she loves badly.

[A]

That was a turning point. It was a wake up call. And I don't think it was like, you know, after that night, everything changed, but I think it was a wake up call of like, oh, I'm the asshole, so I need to like change my behavior.

[C]

But changing her behavior, it requires some real introspection. Yowei has to consider why she felt the need to hide Kyle in the first place. In her quest to connect to her queerness, she has instead been hiding a big part of her life, her husband. And it just made things worse. And this is where I'll say that that is the problem with hiding. It forces you to be a person who's deceptive. Sometimes a lack of self confidence or self awareness or a fear of being too seen turns into dishonest behavior that truly hurts someone you love. It's not always malicious, and in Yowei's case, of course it's not. That's not an excuse. But Yoi acknowledges that sometimes hiding is how she deals when life gets complicated.

[A]

And I think like hiding is just, it is very core to my identity. I've always been a hider. Growing up with Taiwanese immigrant parents, you know, like I always hid shit sneaking out of the house to go party. There was always a double life going on. This is my safe place. Hiding.

[C]

How does Yowei fix this? How do you embrace your life as a queer woman and not be embarrassed that you have a husband? Yowei explains when we return, as does Kyle. Beautiful Kyle, who has plenty to say about being hidden.

[A]

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[C]

we're back. Yowei has hit a bit of a low here. She's found it's possible that a group of queer people who she's been trying to impress by hiding her male partner well, they actually think she's behaving like kind of a jerk for hiding that male partner. And they are correct. They're probably thinking, we are nice people. Yowei is a nice person. Why would she be mean to this man who she's chosen to be in her life? And that's the wake up call. What those queer friends are saying to her, perhaps indirectly, is, be who you are. If that means you're a queer woman partnered with a lovely man, great. Go for it. Embrace your identity. Yowei actually has visual evidence of what happens when you hide Kyle. The night she had those friends over for dinner and she messed up the hotpot situation because, to be honest, only Kyle can really cook. She did burn a hole in the table in her home.

[A]

So I now have on my kitchen table a big black circle that I come down to every morning. And as a reminder of this, like, I'm embarrassed of having a husband feeling, it's like, it is a reminder of this, like, black spot on my conscience.

[C]

At what point did you turn to Kyle and said, I'm sorry?

[A]

Oh, my God. I don't think I've ever said I'm sorry.

[B]

No.

[A]

Oh, my God. Meredith, do it right now. Holy shit.

[C]

But you've talked about, obviously, even by participating today, there's some acknowledgment, right? And you've had a laugh about it, but you're saying there was no point where you said, I acknowledge what I've been doing and I'm gonna do it differently. I.

[A]

We've only talked about it in the form of, like, a joke. So. So we have never really explicitly talked about it. We've only joked about it. And I have never apologized for my behavior. So that is not good behavior. I. I would like to. I would like to take. I. I think I should. I think I should apologize. That would be good to do.

[C]

This seems like a really good moment to introduce Kyle.

[B]

My name is Kyle Pulley. I live in Philly. I've been in the Philly music scene for like some 20 odd years. I co own a recording studio in Philadelphia called the Headroom where we produce like indie rock and punk bands. I was in like a pretty long relationship from like my late teens into my early 20s. And then that ended right around the time, coincidence or not, of me just like really pursuing music. And during that time I was sort of like undateable. And then I started kind of getting my shit together and then I finally met Yowei.

[C]

Kyle tells me a similar version of his first dates with Yowei, of how they fell in love. Was there a moment where you're like, oh, I'm in love with this person. This is my person.

[B]

Oh, you know, I don't know. I think it's one of those things where, you know, you want to look back and say like, oh, it was this moment and you like craft the fairy tale of your life. But you know, I think I do have, I do have memories of just like blowing things off. I was supposed to go to a show, didn't go. I was supposed to hang out with friends. I didn't do that. I was just blowing things off to hang out with, with Yohei. And so yeah, at some point, yeah, early on I was just like, oh, this is, yeah, this is serious. Most of my friends in life are like artsy weirdos who are, you know, talented and smart in many ways, but in other ways just like complete knuckleheads and weirdos and others. And so, you know, Yowei is no exception to that rule. And I, I find her eccentricities charming.

[C]

I asked Kyle, your partner says she's queer and she needs to embrace that and you're supportive. She starts making new friends and you're happy for her. But then she starts asking you to leave the house. I want to know, did he notice? Did he understand what was going on at the time? What exactly was he agreeing to when he said he'd disappear at her request?

[B]

Feel like our relationship has been one long negotiation. At first it was just like, well, you know, my friends and I are gonna hang out. It would be great if we could just. I could just have like time alone with them. And I was like, oh, I understand that. But then she would hang out with her friends and she would kind of just tell me not to be there. One time, like kind of earlier on in our relationship, she wanted to have a bunch of her friends over and I, I came home sort of early and then it was just like I like clearly interrupted something and I think I'd been, like, out, like, riding my bike or, like, you know, at the time, I was getting back into skateboarding before I fell a lot of times and was just like, that's a bad idea. But for whatever reason, I. I came home and I was, like, super sweaty, and I was like, oh. Like, everybody was kind of looking at me. And I was like, sorry, it's just, it's just yoe's sweaty boyfriend. And for some reason, I think yoe or they misheard me and thought I said, like, it's just me, Yoe's white boyfriend. And they all, like, stared daggers at me. I was like, ah, I'm sorry. I'll just go, I'll just go upstairs.

[C]

It was really unpleasant. Kyle also remembers the hot pot incident. He tells it like this.

[B]

She wanted to have these new friends over, these, like, queer art collective or whatever, these people over for, like, hot pot. And, you know, yohe is like, not. She's culinarily challenged, shall we say? Yo, his mom got us a hot pot for Christmas. I was like, making hot pot all the time. And then she saw me do it. Looked easy. She's like, I can make hot pot for, for my friends. And she's like, but you need to not be here. And I was like, okay, like, I get it, you know, and like, our house is kind of small, so, you know, sometimes it's like, I guess you want to. I guess I just figured, like, oh, you want to have, like, you know, full reign of the house. But I came home early, and then it was just like, Again, it looked like I was just, like, interrupting something. So, yeah, I just said hello, and then just, like, knew that I should be upstairs. And I went upstairs. And then later I came down and I was like, what happened to the, the kitchen table? Like, what is this? And she was like, oh, yeah, I'm sorry. I, I, I had the hot pot heating element upside down, and it, it burned, it burned, it burned the, the table. And I was like, that's, that's insane. So, yeah, now there's this, like, little. It's not quite in the center, it's just a little off center. It would be so much better if it was, like, perfectly in the center, but it's just a little off, and it's just, like, hilarious.

[C]

I think it's worth noting that the essay that started this whole discussion, the one with the headline, is Having a Boyfriend Embarrassing. Now, it's a question, not a statement. It read to me almost like a thought prompt. Aren't Boyfriends embarrassing Now why am I embarrassed to have one? What is so embarrassing about having a man as a partner? A lot of people projected their own experiences onto the idea. When I read it at 48, being in a relationship, I thought, am I staying true to my 38 year old self who loved being single? Is it embarrassing that I no longer am? Other people I know thought, yep, men are the worst. That's my answer to this essay's question. I know many people thought there is so much baggage attached to the history of heterosexual relationships and labor and power structures that it's hard to feel like your relationship is the exception to the rule. Yowei told me she saw that headline and even without reading the essay, was reminded of this era with Kyle. Her shame was nuanced and about finding herself and her queer identity. And I think it's interesting being in a heteronormative relationship. Was every heterosexual relationship heteronormative? Like there's a negative connotation that is earned with the word heteronormative that what, even when you describe your relationship with Kyle, it isn't heteronormative to me because of who's doing what labor. They don't seem to be one in the same. So I wonder why you think we all got hit in the face with that headline and have our own aversion to this concept of boyfriend, husband.

[A]

I don't have a smart answer for that. You know, like, I feel uncomfortable talking about anyone else other than myself. All I know is that I went from being someone who was ashamed and embarrassed of having a boyfriend and acted in ridiculous ways because of that shame, to someone who now feels so much better and is acting kinder to herself and to her boyfriend, who is now her husband, and to other people, you know, like less judgmental. You know, I think before I was just really preoccupied with what other people thought of me. And that's not to say that I'm. I'm not still preoccupied with that, but I just think that was so much more important to me. Like not in a conscious way, but just that had so much more of a hold on my psyche. Like I really wanted to appear good, whatever good meant or like, right. You know, whether I was queer enough. And especially at that time, you know, when all of this was going down, when I was at the height of hiding Kyle, you know, I was trying to break into this new queer group. Like, yeah, it makes sense that I was really trying to gain passage into this community. Now I'm saying this out loud. I'm like, was it fucked up of me to hide Kyle? Not just, like, for Kyle's sake, but also like, I was trying to gain entrance into this world that I didn't belong in. It's really complicated. It's still really complicated. I think there's something strange about the fact that I was, like, undercover about having a husband as I was trying to make queer friends and, like, break into this queer community. And that doesn't say anything about this queer community. It has everything to do with me and how I felt about myself and, you know, trying to gain purchase in this world while still, like, you know, enjoying the benefits of a straight marriage and all of that stuff. And now I feel like I'm finally just like, you know, if. If you don't think I'm queer enough to be friends with, well, I'm probably not by your standards, and that's okay. And I probably don't want to be friends with you, and it's just not a match.

[C]

I will say Yowei took this moment to do something she probably should have done a long time ago. She and Kyle have joked about this era of shame and how Yowei learned to acknowledge him in all parts of her life, but that's not really enough.

[A]

Talking to Meredith made me realize. Well, she asked me in our interview, she was like, have you ever said sorry to Kyle for hiding him all this time and being kind of an asshole? And I was like, wow, I had never considered such a thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, no, I. I guess I haven't. I mean, have I. You have a better memory than I do.

[B]

Oh, I. Maybe you have. In passing. I don't know. It was not. I mean, it was not like. Like, listen, we gotta talk. I want to really make sure, you know, you might have been like, do

[A]

you feel sufficiently apologized to? Because if I don't have to apologize

[B]

to you, then I won't. I don't. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't. If you did, it's not memorable enough. So.

[A]

Okay, well, I guess I would like to take this opportunity on this podcast, because apparently that's what I do, podcast journalist, is hash all my shit out on a podcast.

[B]

This is amazing to have a recording of this, too. This is awesome.

[A]

Yeah, I know. I know. Well, yeah, I guess I'm. I'm sorry that I hid you. Well, first of all, I'm sorry that I felt ever embarrassed of you, because that's ridiculous. You're awesome.

[B]

I'm a little embarrassing, though, so I kind of get it.

[A]

Okay. All right. Well, you actually do try to embarrass me. I don't know if you're embarrassing, but, like, that is one of your. Yeah, you like to embarrass me, right? I like to embarrass you. So thank you for acknowledging that. But, yeah, no, I am sorry for a. Being embarrassed of you in the first place, because you're great. And I'm sorry that I was embarrassed of you for so long that that lasted for years. And I'm sorry that I tried to hide you from new friends.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

And that I would make you leave our house when you probably. You wanted to stay in the comfort of your own home.

[B]

Sometimes.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

At times.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm sorry that I prevented you from coming to events that you would have liked to go to because I was trying to hide you.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And I'm sorry. I'm sorry for any. I mean, I guess I've never asked you how it made you feel. Like, did. Did. Did this even Reg. Like, did you realize that I was hiding you? Like, did you even care?

[B]

I mean, yeah, but. I mean, I don't know. I mean, yeah, I. At some point I did. It did register, and it was kind of annoying, but, like, I don't know, like, you know, that's. That's marriage. I don't know. Your partners is sometimes annoying. It's just, like, one of the things I had to deal with, so. But, yeah, I'm glad we don't. I'm glad we aren't dealing with that anymore. So. Yeah, apology accepted.

[C]

One of the most noticeable ways Yowei has changed her behavior, showing the world that she is not embarrassed of Kyle at all. She's brought him onto the proxy podcast. He's a fixture, both as someone who helps with production and as Yowei's partner in life.

[A]

It's essentially the opposite of hiding you. I'm now, like, parading you around on the podcast.

[B]

Well, yeah, I mean, it feels nice. It also makes me feel, you know, embarrassed for a different reason. Cause it's just like, oh, I'm, you know, like, I'm getting this, like, attention or I'm. I don't know, I'm, like, out in the public or whatever, so. But, yeah, it's nice.

[C]

I love that Yowei and Kyle still have that burnt table. It reminds me of the Japanese art philosophy of Wabi Sabi, that there is beauty in imperfections, in cracks, in the physical evidence of change. I hope they keep that hot pot table forever.

[A]

And actually, in fact, one of our friends from that night memorialized the table and made an exact replica of like a tiny replica of the table with the exact black circle that is a little off center and as like a gift to memorialize that night, which is so funny.

[C]

Oh, that's so beautiful. A great Proxy episode that features Yowei and Kyle is layoff girl and Kyle is the hero. As I mentioned, I'll be a guest on Yoweh's podcast Proxy. We'll drop that episode here at Love Letters so you can listen. Love Letters is a production of the Boston Globe. This episode was on based produced by Jasmine Aguilera. Story edit by Veronica Chow Sound design by Jasmine Aguilera. Special thanks to Linda Henry and Brian McGrory. Remember, love letters is also an advice column. Send any questions about dating, divorce, marriage, complicated friendships, singlehood, whatever to lovelettersoston.com when you send a question, you help people wondering the same thing. And if you like the show, please leave us a review. And remember, you can find Proxy wherever you find podcasts.

[A]

And now it's very funny to me that like I went from hiding him, like literally making him leave the house like he's a ghost to now he's like on the podcast most weeks.

[C]

I'm Meredith Goldstein. Thanks for listening.

[A]

Radiotopia

[B]

from prx.