Zakiyah Gibbons (5:27)

I feel like I know myself pretty well and with such like a core character trait as being a people person, being a yapper. And so for me to feel that slip away, it was kind of an existential thing of like, who am I?

Yowei Shah (5:50)

The old Zakiya, the one she misses, was in her late 20s, working her dream job as a podcast producer in New York City and also living her best life outside of work.

Zakiyah Gibbons (6:02)

Like nightlife is extremely important to me. I kind of like being chaotic and having plans on plans on plans. My apartment was just kind of a place for me to sleep. My friends would always joke and Be.

Dr. Bill Chapek (6:14)

Like, bitch, how are you on a boat?

Zakiyah Gibbons (6:16)

Like I would always just like randomly end up on a boat.

Yowei Shah (6:19)

A typical week, Zakiyah goes to work at her high powered public radio job, gets dinner with a friend, vibes with her hot waitress.

Zakiyah Gibbons (6:26)

I was like, hey, what's good? Blah, blah, blah.

Yowei Shah (6:29)

Zakiyah goes back to work, cuts another interview for her job. She gets invited to a party.

Zakiyah Gibbons (6:34)

I'm like, strangers love it.

Yowei Shah (6:36)

The party turns out to be boring and pretentious. But Zakiya makes friends with another queerdo in the corner and they decide to amuse themselves.

Zakiyah Gibbons (6:43)

Let's break the rules, we're going upstairs. Who lives here in this like low key mansion?

Yowei Shah (6:47)

Then Zakiya is at another party.

Zakiyah Gibbons (6:49)

Somehow I end up in a hot tub with these two self proclaimed vampires. No.

Yowei Shah (6:54)

She hits up the hot waitress who's closing up shop for the night. And Zakiya's now in the back kitchen dancing with restaurant workers, making out with the hottest guy there.

Zakiyah Gibbons (7:02)

And then I get home at like 5am and I'm like, wow, that was fun.

Yowei Shah (7:06)

After a couple hours of sleep, Zakiya goes back to work and does it all again. But then 2020 hits, it's lockdown. Zakiya's roommate moves back to Florida and Zakiya finds herself living alone for the first time for an entire year. And she discovers that she likes being alone.

Zakiyah Gibbons (7:31)

I was just thinking about Castaway, the movie, you know, with Tom Hanks and Wilson. I would say like my Wilson in those times was my iridescent bong that I named Princess Mononoke. Like that was my baby. I would nurse her, she'd be lying on my titty. I'd be like watching 90 Day Fiance hitting the bong rip and just be like, wow. I just love not having to speak to anyone for days on end. I love just being in my PJs. I love just my own thoughts, not having to answer to anyone. It felt delicious. I felt a warm glow inside of me that I would get when I was out chopping it up with new people or connecting with old friends, dancing my heart out on the dance floor. I felt that same inner glow by myself, just in my apartment.

Yowei Shah (8:23)

Fast forward to the vaccine, things open back up and Zakiyah attends a brunch at her friend's house, something she's done a million times.

Zakiyah Gibbons (8:32)

I get there, I have a full blown panic attack which I've never had. Social anxiety. I've never been triggered into a panic attack in a safe space like my friend's apartment with People I know. And that's when I was like, oh, this is new. And then ever since then, the things that used to give me joy were triggering me. Like talking to people, being in new social situations, small talk.

Yowei Shah (9:02)

For the next few years, Zakiya searches for an excuse to stay home and not go to social events, sometimes for an entire month. When 2023 kicks Zakiyah in the face, her mom getting sick, a breakup, having to move, a toxic work environment, then work drying up, then getting sick herself, the new Zakiyah wants to tunnel even more into the fluffy bubble of her couch.

Zakiyah Gibbons (9:27)

In my head, I was like, well, this is self care. Like, what does my body want to not move? What does my body want to watch Love Island.

Yowei Shah (9:34)

When Zakiyah does have to venture into the world for a friend's birthday or some podcasting thing, she panics. She told me about this one networking event.

Zakiyah Gibbons (9:45)

I remember just going to the bathroom and just trying to breathe, trying to come up with a game plan and also low key, trying to wait out the clock until the programming started. I used to be able to go someplace by myself and just walk into the room, purse first and grab a drink, saunter up to a group of people and be like, oh my God, how do you know so and so and you know, kind of start conversation out of nowhere. That's why I think it made it even harder, because I was just looking in the mirror and being like, what is wrong with you? You can talk to people. You're grown, you've done this before. Why can't you do this?

Yowei Shah (10:37)

I asked Ikea some basic stuff, things I found myself wondering, is it the weed? Is that what's making her a shut in? She said she's thought about that and has stopped smoking as much. Is Ikea just traumatized from her horrible year? She said she was in therapy and feels like the worst is over. Which leaves Ikea with a question. Is this just who she is now and she needs to accept it? Or is there a chance she can get back to the self she misses? Sometimes she'll get these flickers. She'll be walking down the street, hearing strangers laugh inside a restaurant, and she'll feel that glow inside her again. But then she'll be on a Tinder date and get drained immediately, and she'll find herself thinking, God, they're so annoying.

Zakiyah Gibbons (11:29)

I just feel like now I just want to stay in my apartment. I don't want anyone fucking talking to me. No new friends. I don't know, I just kind of didn't recognize myself and still don't.

Yowei Shah (11:50)

After the break, we find a proxy to try to give zakiya some answers. Foreign a reminder that you can hear. Zakiya get more help on her conundrum from our friends at the science of happiness podcast. In that episode, zakiyah will learn about the science of intuition and try a practice to slow down and strengthen her inner knowing after a few very hard years. Burned her out. That's coming up Thursday on proxy.

Kyle (12:39)

Hello.

Yowei Shah (12:40)

Hi. How's it going? How was your day?

Kyle (12:43)

It was fine, you know, dealing with my. Just a problematic client. I have sent me a lot of notes. You know, just this podcast I've been working on.

Yowei Shah (12:54)

Is there anything this client can do to make your job easier?

Kyle (12:59)

Yeah, I don't know. Would be cool if you could get. I mean, at some point maybe you should get some of the same plugins so then you can like, edit it and just, you know, like after I do all this stuff, you know, easy.

Yowei Shah (13:13)

How much do you think those plugins are?

Kyle (13:15)

It might be a little expensive. It might be $500 or. Or something like that.

Yowei Shah (13:22)

Okay, well, maybe that's not quite in proxy's budget at the moment, but, you know, maybe in a year.

Kyle (13:28)

We need some more patreon support.

Yowei Shah (13:30)

You heard the man. If you would like to make life a little easier for Kyle, proxy's Engineer, go to patreon.com ProxyPodcast to become a member and support this independent show. Starting at $5 a month, you'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus interviews. 12 and counting so far. What a bargain. That's patreon.com ProxyPodcast thank you to everyone who signed up. You were making proxy possible.

Zakiyah Gibbons (14:05)

And now I'm rolling.

Yowei Shah (14:06)

Yes, the day the proxy conversation. Six months have gone by. It's January. Well, happy new year.

Zakiyah Gibbons (14:14)

Yes, happy new year. Honestly, Happy new year.

Yowei Shah (14:17)

Zakiya and I are on the video call waiting for the proxy to show.

Zakiyah Gibbons (14:20)

Sorry, I thought I saw chicken in my teeth. I scarfed down some chicken two minutes ago. Okay.

Yowei Shah (14:26)

How are you feeling about this proxy conversation?

Zakiyah Gibbons (14:28)

I'm nervous. I'm like, wait, what's about to happen? Is it gonna be fun? Will I cry? It's okay if I do. I'm a crier.

Yowei Shah (14:36)

Okay, the proxy's here. Should I let them in? Are you ready?

Zakiyah Gibbons (14:39)

Um, yes, I'm ready.

Yowei Shah (14:47)

So the proxy. As we were looking for a proxy for zakiya, there were a couple directions we could go. We could have found someone who, like zakiya, had lost her joie de Vivre, but then managed to find herself again. But we were also interested in the questions Zakiya raised about perhaps personality. Big, probably unanswerable questions, like, has her personality fundamentally changed? And if so, is it possible for her to change it back? Who is the real Zakiya anyway? This is how I found Bill.

Dr. Bill Chapek (15:29)

Hey, everybody.

Zakiyah Gibbons (15:30)

Hi. I'm dying to know who you are.

Yowei Shah (15:33)

We do a round of introductions.

Dr. Bill Chapek (15:35)

Yeah. So I'm Dr. Bill Chapek. I'm a. I'm an associate professor of psychology at Michigan State University. I'm an expert in how people change over time, for better and for worse. And if they wanted to change themselves, what are the types of things that they could maybe do to kind of achieve the things that they want?

Zakiyah Gibbons (15:52)

I have a soft spot for academics. My parents are academics. I studied psychology. So I also was nerding out, like, ooh, what am I going to learn?

Dr. Bill Chapek (15:59)

Not everybody does. So I love to hear that.

Yowei Shah (16:02)

Well, Bill, why did you get into this line of work? Why are you interested in personality change?

Dr. Bill Chapek (16:08)

I think it started really young, just interested in why people think the way they do. What are the internal struggles and strife people have? And then it kind of came to a head when I was working a job in high school. When I was a teenager, I worked in a bar. I was mostly like a bar back, stocking beer and changing ice and changing kegs, emptying ashtrays.

Yowei Shah (16:29)

That does sound illegal.

Dr. Bill Chapek (16:30)

It does sound illegal, doesn't it?

Zakiyah Gibbons (16:32)

Yeah. You sounded like a cool teenager, though.

Dr. Bill Chapek (16:34)

Thanks for saying that. I don't know if that's totally true, but, you know, the funny thing is, like, when you spend just, like, large amounts of time with people, especially at a bar that's kind of inherently social, you kind of just talk to a lot of people. You get a sense of where they came from, the things that have gone well, the things that have gone poorly, the explanations that people have had for why they ended up the way they do.

Yowei Shah (16:56)

You mean like the regulars?

Dr. Bill Chapek (16:57)

Yeah, the regulars. The people that would show up at, like, 11 o' clock ready to go, or the people who would celebrate anniversaries or engagements or childbirths and then, of course, really tragic things. I think that just gave me an appreciation about how complex people are.

Zakiyah Gibbons (17:12)

Yes.

Yowei Shah (17:13)

Zakiyah runs through her case for Bill.

Zakiyah Gibbons (17:16)

I don't know. I wouldn't describe myself as like a manic pixie dream girl, but that, like, zest for life, how she used to.

Yowei Shah (17:23)

Love talking to people and going out.

Zakiyah Gibbons (17:24)

The day would unfold as it may, and that's what made me feel excited and alive and like.

Yowei Shah (17:28)

But ever since lockdown and a horrific 2023.

Zakiyah Gibbons (17:31)

Yes, some crisis.

Yowei Shah (17:33)

Zakiyah felt like an introvert and wanted to stay home on her couch.

Zakiyah Gibbons (17:37)

And then I got to a point where everybody and everything annoyed me. I need to get home. I need to not be talking to this person.

Yowei Shah (17:44)

What you're about to hear is the proxy conversation, which we always edit for clarity and brevity. And by the way, Kyle the engineer would like me to say yes, we know my audio doesn't sound great. That is me, not him. Sorry about that. I pressed the wrong button in the moment. Whoops. Okay, here's Zakiya and Bill.

Zakiyah Gibbons (18:09)

I'm aware that, yeah, I'm 32 now. There's different circumstances and context, but like, I. So it's not like I'm trying to replicate 24 year old me, but there just still seems something that transcends time and age that is just part of me. And so I'm just like, what is fixed? What is malleable? And should I accept that this is who I am now? But I just, I feel like I don't accept it because it doesn't feel good. Good as in like I feel connected to myself and that soul is glowing.

Dr. Bill Chapek (18:46)

Yeah. I mean, everything you said is really reasonable. Your experience with going from being very social to being inside and then slowly coming out and then struggling with that. I think a lot of people would identify with that, that there's this massive stressor that happened, namely a global pandemic where lots of people are scared of the world and people died and it made people think about other people differently. But one abnormal part of the story is how many stressors piled up at once. Moving alone is actually incredibly stressful. If that was the only thing that happened that year, it would be a stressful year. But the fact that your mom was really sick and you were perhaps sick and your workplace didn't seem like a really hospitable place to work, and the fact that it knocked you off kilter is not the craziest thing.

Yowei Shah (19:35)

Bill. I think for a lot of listeners, they probably have never heard of a personality researcher before. What is a personality? How are you measuring it? What are you listening for when you hear Zakiya's story? To try to even figure out, has she changed?

Dr. Bill Chapek (19:50)

Yeah, it's really tricky. I mean, there's so many facets to us. We're so, you know, humans are so complicated. But over the years, personality psychologists have really drilled it down to kind of five things to describe someone. And all those little facets and intricacies and nuances and idiosyncrasies are kind of combinations of those basic five things. And they call them the.

Zakiyah Gibbons (20:11)

Oh, my God, are you about to say the ocean thing?

Dr. Bill Chapek (20:13)

Yep.

Zakiyah Gibbons (20:14)

Yeah, this is back from when I studied psychology and I think about this acronym all the time and I'm like, my O is dropping. Wait, can I see if I got it? If I remember, is it ocean Openness to experience, Conscientiousness, extroversion, A. Is that anxiety?

Dr. Bill Chapek (20:31)

No, agreeableness.

Zakiyah Gibbons (20:33)

Agreeableness and neuroticism.

Dr. Bill Chapek (20:35)

Yep, exactly. You got it. So when zakiya is like, oh, yeah, you know, I have a short fuse or more anxious, I'm less outgoing. I'm like, okay, well that falls into this category here and this there. And traits are just that. It's just like how people describe themselves. It doesn't speak to anything deeper. Yeah, I should have said this earlier. You're not a broken person. It's not that you're an irredeemable. It's just these are some behavioral patterns you've fallen into. And then the key is to investigate why. And a lot of personality psychology is that finding out what are the things that cause these traits to change. You know, you listed a bunch of things that could potentially have changed them.

Zakiyah Gibbons (21:16)

So isn't every thing scored from one to five?

Dr. Bill Chapek (21:19)

Not always. But the survey you probably took probably was. Yeah.

Zakiyah Gibbons (21:22)

Okay. So yeah, our professor had everyone take it out of five. I scored a 4.5 out of five on neuroticism. And I didn't really know what that word meant back then. I turned my friend and I was like, what's neuroticism? And he's like, oh, you would be a 4.5. And I was like, what does that mean?

Dr. Bill Chapek (21:39)

Oh my God, some friend.

Zakiyah Gibbons (21:41)

And then now I kind of think about that all the time, just being. Well, you did score a 4.5. And I think I'm always gonna be a little neurotic, But I feel like it's a double edged sword. I feel like it makes me think really deeply about things.

Dr. Bill Chapek (21:54)

Yeah.

Zakiyah Gibbons (21:55)

Which I enjoy. But then it also makes me think really deeply about things, which can be hard. Yeah, I would say. I feel like openness has dropped. Conscientiousness, I don't think has dropped.

Dr. Bill Chapek (22:09)

Okay.

Zakiyah Gibbons (22:10)

Extraversion dropped. Agreeableness, I don't think it's dropped.

Dr. Bill Chapek (22:15)

I'm really happy that you mentioned the good things about neuroticism because there's also bad Things about constantly being agreeable. I am so conflict averse. It's caused problems.

Zakiyah Gibbons (22:26)

Oh my God, it's not good.

Dr. Bill Chapek (22:28)

Yeah. And like neuroticism, you, there's like a vigilance about things that is really helpful sometimes. Imagine that you had no anxieties. That actually causes a lot of problems too. The fact that you would trust everything uncritically, that you would never be worried about your performance in any domain. Likewise, the uber extroverted person isn't always the greatest person at the party, the one that has all these superficial relationships. So these traits aren't like inherently good or bad. And I think that that's good to at least acknowledge.

Zakiyah Gibbons (23:04)

Yeah, I guess the scary thing is that like, especially if we're sticking with Ocean, if there's like one letter that like really lended to the. I don't know why I keep insisting on saying joie de vivre when I literally don't know how to say it. But yeah, the openness to experience the quote unquote before Zakiya, I'll try anything once was truly how I lived life. And sometimes it would get me in trouble, sometimes it led to some dope things. But at least I was living life really fully and I was really present. And I feel like that kind of fed my creativity and fed the fire that was, is the glow that makes me me. And I don't like being closed off. That's just kind of antithetical to who I am intellectually and emotionally.

Yowei Shah (23:57)

Bill, could you explain what do we see in the research about how people tend to change in personality across a lifespan? And where does Zakiya's experience fit inside that?

Dr. Bill Chapek (24:10)

Yeah, so people do change with age. There are these things called normative changes, which is just how people change on average. And you know, the irony is that no one truly is the average. Right. It's just kind of you average across tons of people's experiences and this is what you get. But you know, one thing that's consistently found across age is that people, to put it in a non scientific way, they, they kind of get their shit together, become more mature. So yeah, so things like conscientiousness go up partially because we're rewarded for kind of doing well. We become a little bit less extroverted. There's a bunch of reasons for that. Some of it has to do with like our romantic relationships too, where we kind of withdraw from friends. But yeah, you become a little less open partially because you don't find yourself in dramatically new situations as you get older. And then for the most part, people become a little bit more emotionally stable over time. So you are both consistent and inconsistent with the average person. The fact that you become like a little less social, that's not that dramatic. The fact that you're more anxious is a problem though, because for the most part, people kind of chill out as they get older.

Yowei Shah (25:24)

Bill, after hearing Zakiyah's story, do you think her personality has changed?

Dr. Bill Chapek (25:32)

So if you listed everything you did the past week and if we had a magical time machine and we were going to go back and talk to 22 year old Zakiyah and we said, hey, list all the things you did this week, those lists would probably be really different, right? With what did you do for fun? What was work like today? Where'd you go to eat? Where did you walk around? How nice were you to people? The fact that those things are different suggests that maybe you have changed.

Zakiyah Gibbons (25:59)

It's very sobering to hear from someone who does not know me but also knows very well what I'm talking about. Just to be like, yes, you have change, but it is helpful to hear like, but that's not necessarily bad. Like, that's just something that happens. It's kind of like mourning the old me. Like, she was so fun though. Damn, pour one out.

Dr. Bill Chapek (26:28)

The truth is, over any short period of time, there will be fluctuations in your personality. So the timeframe matters. So it's like, am I different than I was when I was 22? The answer is certainly yes. But where you're at right now in your life is the period of most dramatic personality change.

Yowei Shah (26:49)

Oh, what do you mean?

Dr. Bill Chapek (26:51)

Yeah, early 20s to 30s. And then after about age 50 or 60, people do still change, but it's much less dramatic.

Yowei Shah (27:00)

Why?

Dr. Bill Chapek (27:01)

A bunch of reasons. So one thing is you're still figuring your life out. So then you try a bunch of new things. Your situations shift dramatically. So just the things you told me today, you had a series of roommates, you had a series of relationships, you had a bunch of different hobbies. I'm guessing maybe you lived in different parts of the city or you would hang out in different parts of the city. That's a ton of different stuff. And people will often explore situations and try new things when they're young, but as a result, they find themselves in situations that change them and around people who change them over time. Though, when imagine people get older, they get settled in their career, they find a long term partner, they just settle in such a ways that they're not exposed as much to new Situations, maybe they're a little less sensitive to experiences too. So imagine the first time you did some kind of really fun activity like meditation or art or something that really fills your soul. That's different than it's like the 50th time you've done that, right?

Zakiyah Gibbons (28:04)

Yeah.

Dr. Bill Chapek (28:05)

So there's a lot of you left to be written. It's like if you stopped reading after page 30 of a book, well, what happens next? The truth is we won't know for another 20 years if this was truly the genuine change or not.

Yowei Shah (28:25)

But of course, Zakiya wants to go back to being a people person. So how. That's after the break. So if Zakiya wants to actively change her personality, can she? Bill explains that if she does, it will probably have everything to do with the people around her. He's seen it in his own life.

Dr. Bill Chapek (28:59)

Yeah. You know, the interesting thing is I told you this origin story about kind of having these deep conversations and bars with regulars and people I considered friends. So many intimate details. It's like, how are we not kind of close? And I think I veered away from that in college where I didn't have as many opportunities. I kind of just went an hour and a half south of where I grew up. Didn't make a lot of new friends. I kind of chose to go to a college that my friends had gone to.

Yowei Shah (29:28)

Even though Bill had a core group of the same friends from high school, he says he'd go days without talking to another human. He was so focused on academics and doing research. But then Bill took his introverted self to Michigan for grad school. It was the first time he lived out of state. He didn't know anyone and. And every time he met someone, he was scared he'd embarrass himself. But Bill pushed himself, pushed himself to say yes to lunch dates, to karaoke, to drag shows.

Dr. Bill Chapek (30:00)

And, you know, I kind of got into this really great friend group which is purely chance based. I had a really sheltered life. And then I found myself in a graduate program with someone who worked at a sexual health clinic, someone who was like a multi deployed veteran who left after 9 11, and someone who studied black sexuality and like Jezebel stereotypes. And it's like, oh, who's this like white kid, white man from Chicago? Learning about bell hooks and Crenshaw, Bill.

Yowei Shah (30:34)

Suddenly found himself going on road trips and dressing up for Halloween in group costumes. He relaxed and became a jokester.

Dr. Bill Chapek (30:42)

I don't know, it was just like a really transformative experience. And I think part of it was those people were just so open to friendship. And then I kind of fell in love with people again. I was like, oh, man, people are so awesome and complicated and horrible and wonderful.

Yowei Shah (31:02)

Yes.

Dr. Bill Chapek (31:03)

So, yeah, I have friends Amy and Allie and Mike and Lanise. And they were just like a huge part of my life in a way that, like, the reason I am the way I am today and I'm not like, sulky and like sad and a shut in, I think is because they met me at like a very crucial time in my life that they kind of showed me what was possible.

Zakiyah Gibbons (31:25)

Oh, everything you're saying, like, we have so much in common. A little bit before, when you were saying, you know, you fell out of love with people, and I was like, that's. I don't know that for me, that's the stuff of life is understanding other people and connecting with other people. That was kind of my driving force in life big and small. From like the journalism I do to why I leave the house. You know what's wild? I did this self compassion workshop a few years ago. We would do like mindfulness meditation. And it was like kind of like group therapy. But like, one thing I took away from it that I had never asked myself before was like, what do I need right now? Because before I would just be like, go, go, go, go, go. But I would never ask, like, what do I need? So I feel like I, you know, ask like, what do I need right now? And then I'm like, I need to cancel plans, turn on the TV and watch housewives. I actually did need to do a lot of nothing because 2023 was non stop mayhem.

Dr. Bill Chapek (32:25)

Sounds like it.

Yowei Shah (32:26)

Yeah.

Zakiyah Gibbons (32:26)

And then I feel like I kept choosing that, like, what do I need right now? And I'm like, I need to not do anything I need not do. And so then I got confused. Cause I'm like, well, I'm listening to my body. My body is saying, I'm tired and I want to watch tv. So then I would do that. But then I'm like, but that also doesn't feel like what I need right now. So how do I know what I need right now?

Dr. Bill Chapek (32:47)

Yeah. Yeah. There's this cruel irony to that, where the isolation and going your own way actually undermines your goals in the long run. Because when you think of people who shut off other people in the pursuit of this individual sickle, that's when stability, like, increases, where they become more and more stable, and then it's harder and harder to change because their perspectives are never challenged. Their habits are never broken. So even though everything in your body is telling you not to, if you were to go to these social events, the fact that you kind of have to force yourself to go is really, really important. Because then if you start to get into those situations, that's when you can get out of the rut.

Zakiyah Gibbons (33:33)

So what you're saying is, even if it feels like what you need, don't do it.

Dr. Bill Chapek (33:39)

It's so tough. Yeah, you're overriding a natural tendency to do the comfortable thing. And that's partially why personality stabilizes over time as people kind of fall into these habitual patterns where, yeah, it's easier to watch Real Housewives than kind of venture out, meet new people, do this dramatically different thing. But, you know, the self compassion workshop, I think actually if it changes people at all, it's not necessarily about the self acceptance. If anything, maybe it's the unburdening of stuff that's holding you back from doing other things. And I think the other things is the key. So if you learn to accept yourself and that's what was holding you back from dating or seeking out new friendships, then I think that self compassion thing will work. However, if it's just I am perfect in every way and I'm accepting that and I never have to change, then there's a danger to that. Right? I think if you want to change, the thing you have to do is change.

Zakiyah Gibbons (34:39)

And it sounds like no shit, especially hearing it out loud, where it's like, change the thing you're unhappy with.

Dr. Bill Chapek (34:45)

If it was easy, but honestly.

Zakiyah Gibbons (34:48)

But I did get tripped up.

Yowei Shah (34:49)

The thing is, it's famously hard to change people, including yourself. But Bill and his colleagues have done studies that show it's possible. It just takes time and a ton of work.

Dr. Bill Chapek (35:05)

It really does start with us asking the question that partially underlie this conundrum that we're talking about, do you want to change? What's a particular thing that you don't like about yourself that you'd want to change? And then we took people seriously.

Yowei Shah (35:18)

They gave the people homework every week for four months. They gave participants challenges to complete that would help them change in the domains they wanted. For instance, if somebody wanted to be more extroverted, their task one week might be to go to a public place where people mingle and say hi to somebody new. Then another week, they might have to plan a meetup to go birding with strangers.

Dr. Bill Chapek (35:41)

They recorded what they did during the week, and they recorded their personality. And then, sure enough, if they were able to Engage in the things they changed in the direction that they wanted to change. So the agreeable people became more agreeable. The neurotic people became less neurotic. The shy people became more outgoing. The people who kind of struggled to do schoolwork or, like, perform at the job, they started to do better, too.

Yowei Shah (36:07)

To see if the changes were because of the tasks they completed or just placebo, Bill and his colleagues did another variation of the study where they gave participants the wrong intervention on purpose. Say someone wanted to be less neurotic, but instead got homework to become a nicer person every week for four months straight, like giving a family member a compliment or. Or forgiving someone. And what the researchers found was that the person didn't get less neurotic like they wanted, but they did get nicer.

Dr. Bill Chapek (36:39)

What matters is you doing the things. It's not like whether or not you think that we're helping you in this way. It's not like a placebo effect where, oh, I just get better if I try.

Yowei Shah (36:50)

Even if you don't believe you can change, Bill says just doing the work will change you. He told us about another study where he measured people's beliefs about whether personality can change and again, gave people challenges to complete every week for four months.

Dr. Bill Chapek (37:06)

So we looked at that. Does it matter if there's this misanthropic denialist about the capacity of change? And it doesn't matter either, even for the cynical amongst us, if we're willing to invest in it, it could lead to really amazing changes. Even if you don't believe it works.

Yowei Shah (37:24)

I asked Bill, how much change are we talking? And he said, you know, on average, these are not massive changes. It's not like people are doing 180s here. But that doesn't mean the changes can't still be meaningful to the person. It's all relative. Whatever the case, if Zakiya wants to get back any people personess that she's been missing, one thing is for sure, she'll need to put in the work. And it turns out that Zakiya has already started giving herself homework kind of in the way that Bill might.

Zakiyah Gibbons (38:02)

Hey, this is actually really vulnerable. I made this document.

Dr. Bill Chapek (38:06)

Oh, let us tell us, please.

Zakiyah Gibbons (38:08)

Okay. Here's actually a link to the note.

Dr. Bill Chapek (38:11)

Okay.

Yowei Shah (38:11)

Zakiya shared with us a notes app of her ins and outs for the year, situations she wanted to put herself in and not put herself in. A sprawling document almost as long and more rated R than the list of challenges Bill gives participants in his studies. This is such a wonderful list I love this.

Zakiyah Gibbons (38:31)

There's also a couple inappropriate ones where I'm like, oop, honestly, say whatever you want.

Yowei Shah (38:36)

In for 2025 dance floor, makeouts, eavesdropping, sliding in DMs.

Dr. Bill Chapek (38:42)

My eyes went right away to bad bitch music as an in Also being.

Yowei Shah (38:47)

A bitch to people who deserve it.

Zakiyah Gibbons (38:48)

Yes.

Dr. Bill Chapek (38:49)

Oh great. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yowei Shah (38:51)

Out for 2025. Rushing, non restorative, mindless TV watching, making snap judgments about people.

Dr. Bill Chapek (39:00)

When I see Zakiyah's list, there's socializing stuff, there's wholesome joy in it. But then there's also some stuff that I think you discovered about yourself that you'd want to preserve. There's like solitary time that's really meaningful and maybe that would have really scared Zakiyah when she was 20. But then there's a bunch of risky stuff on here too that will certainly get you outside your comfort zone and again, change the situation, which is if we put stock in it, that's kind of like what we think is the thing that changes people.

Zakiyah Gibbons (39:33)

What you're saying is really affirming to me and that like, yeah, no, I'm not being too Optimize your life, girl boss, get rise and grind. But I am kind of tired of just resting. Like I'm kind of like, all right, I want to get off the couch and leave my apartment literally and metaphorically.

Yowei Shah (40:05)

Thank you to Bill Chopic for being our proxy today. Bill is a psychology professor at Michigan State. And of course thank you to Zakiya Gibbons. Zakiya hosted this queer reality dating show podcast that I am obsessed with. It's called Hang Up. You should listen to hear about Zakiya's other projects coming up. You can follow her on Instagram. A K underscore sauce. This episode was edited by Tim Howard, produced by me and mixed by Kyle Pulley. Research and production support from Kim Nadervane Petersa with help from Anna Karan Santana and Charlie Klein. Our newsletter editor is Juliana Feliciana Reyes. Music in this episode by Tim Howard and theme music by Breakmaster Cylinder. As always, you can follow us on Instagram, ProxyPodcast and I'm Yowei Shaw. We also have a free newsletter. You can sign up at our website proxipodcast.com proxy is a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a network of independent creator owned, listener supported podcasts. Discover audio with vision at Radiotopia fm. Radiotopia's executive producer is Audrey Martavich and Yuri Lozordo is director of network operations. If you've enjoyed the show and feel like it's worth reviewing. Please do leave a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. But more importantly, just tell one person that you like this episode. Word of mouth, more than any other form of promotion, is how creative work in journalism gets noticed and sustains itself. Okay, thanks for listening.

Zakiyah Gibbons (41:52)

I took this Self compassion workshop and they talk about if your heart is a closed fist, you know, if you hear, you know, the right affirmations, the right advice, receive love or whatever. If your heart is still a closed fist, it like just kind of sits atop. But eventually, over time, that fist will loosen and open and then like the words or love or whatever can actually come through and be received. I feel like I've been a closed fist for a minute now, and I just feel like the loosening, the fisting isn't. I know. I was like, what? Where? I know. I'm like, ooh, this is a great time for fisting. I'm ready to receive a huge Best.

Dr. Bill Chapek (42:47)

Radiotopia.

Yowei Shah (42:50)

From prx.