"A saturated state is a state in which the conceptual or emotional object has absolute value, it is already stacked or closed to new meanings and therefore cannot undergo any kind of transformation. An unsaturated state, on the other hand, is a state in which the emotional or conceptual object is in an open state in which it is still open to transformation, to new meanings, to all kinds of change. What I think is interesting and important is to understand that one of the most difficult aims of working with traumatic objects is linked to this transformation from saturated to unsaturated states. Traumatic objects become fixed in a saturated state, which does not allow them to undergo any transformation within the psyche or within the therapeutic analytic process. The saturated state of traumatic events or objects is a frozen state in which therapy or analysis is used to preserve rather than intervene. This creates, in quite a few cases, a situation that I call false therapy or false analysis - a process, a therapeutic process in which very detailed materials are ostensibly presented, but in fact they are presented in a way that forces the therapist or to either swallow them as they are, or vomit them up but not digest them because they are presented in a way that does not tolerate any intervention, any other point of view, any creation of movement within the given frozen narrative."

Episode Description: We begin with describing the difference between 'saturated' and 'unsaturated' memories - those that are frozen and without the freedom to reflect from those that contain the capacity to create new meaning. Dana emphasizes the importance of not simply collecting the particulars of a trauma, the 'notes', as much as attending to the nature of its delivery, the 'music' - "the way they tell the story." She presents a case involving 'parasitic language' where imitation of the other is at the level of fetishistic attachment lacking a voice of their own. In her countertransference she noted "I search for you - all I find is myself." We consider how this pseudo-relating induces a peculiar sense of closeness that ultimately contributes to a sense of claustrophobia in the analyst. She shares with us her personal story and reflects "Being a psychoanalyst doesn't mean giving up being a musician." Dana concludes with reading her final paragraph on 'forgiveness.'

Our Guest: Dana Amir, PhD., is a clinical psychologist, supervising and training analyst at the Israel Psychoanalytic Society, full professor, and head of the interdisciplinary doctoral program in psychoanalysis at the Zramim Postgraduate Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy Program at Haifa University, poetess and literature researcher. She is the author of seven poetry books, four memoirs in prose, and five psychoanalytic books published by Routledge. She was awarded literary as well as academic prizes, including seven international psychoanalytic awards, including the prestigious Sigourney Award (2025).