← Psychologists Off the Clock
Psychologists Off the Clock
433. Rethinking Screens and Video Games with Ash Brandin
Loading summary
Transcript166 lines
- [00:01]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average. Pop over to progressive.com, answer some questions and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary we see so
- [00:41]
Ash Brandon
much get placed and blamed on technology and we also see so much get blamed on the individual and kind of put on the individual as a responsibility. But in many cases these are issues that an individual bear the brunt of that was not an individual's fault to begin with, right? When we look at things like not having paid parental leave, not having affordable, accessible childcare, not having safe access to the outdoors, climate, disability, neurodivergence, not even touching on things like systemic racism, I mean all of those things are going to make it more or less possible for a child to be out in the world.
- [01:25]
Dr. Emily Edlin
That was Ash Brandon on Psychologists off the Clock.
- [01:38]
Dr. Jill Stoddard
We are five experts in psychology here to bring you cutting edge and science based ideas to help you flourish in your relationships, work and Health.
- [01:45]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
I'm Dr. Debbie Sorensen, a clinical psychologist practicing in mile High, Denver, Colorado, author of act for Burnout and Act Daily
- [01:52]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Journal from America's Heartland. I'm Dr. Emily Edlin, clinical psychologist based in Chicago, Illinois and author of Autonomy Supportive Parenting. Calling in from Vienna, Austria, I'm Michael Herold, EC Coach, confidence trainer and the author of an upcoming book on developing your confidence and social skills.
- [02:09]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
From Boston, I'm Dr. Yael Schoenbrenn, faculty at Brown University and author of Work Parent Thrive and an upcoming book about misunderstanding.
- [02:17]
Dr. Jill Stoddard
And from coastal New England, I'm Dr. Jill Stoddard, author of Be Mighty the Big Book of Act Metaphors and Imposter no More.
- [02:23]
Dr. Emily Edlin
We hope you take what you learn here to build a rich and meaningful life. Thank you for listening to Psychologists off the Clock.
- [02:33]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
Hey listeners. You know the podcast is values based work for us and a labor of love. The podcast industry has been a roller coaster ride and there are some expenses involved in hosting a podcast. We'd love to keep bringing you great episodes and we could use your support, help us keep the podcast going next year and beyond. You can do that two ways. You can support us on Patreon for just five bucks a month on Patreon, you'll be able to listen to the podcast ad free by making a one time donation in any amount on Buy Me a Coffee. Think of it as taking a co host out to coffee to thank us for the podcast. You can link to Patreon and buy Me a coffee on our website. Thanks for your support and be sure to stay tuned to the end of the episode for our co host discussion
- [03:15]
Dr. Emily Edlin
of today's interview Ash Brandon, known online as the Gamer Educator, empowers families to make screen time sustainable, manageable and beneficial for the whole family. Now in their 15th year of teaching middle school, they help caregivers navigate the world of tech with consistent loving boundaries. Founded on respect for children, appreciation of video games and tech, and knowledge of pedagogical techniques, Ash has appeared on multiple high profile podcasts including Rethinking with Adam Grant and Karen Feeding from Slate, and has contributed to articles featured on Romper, Scary Mommy Life, Hacker, the Daily Beast, USA Today and npr. Their bestselling book, which we're talking about today, power on Managing Screen Time to Benefit the Whole family, debuted in August 2025. In their free time, Ash loves to hike, bake, play video games and spend time with their family. Welcome to Psychologists off the Clock.
- [04:14]
Ash Brandon
Ash, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
- [04:17]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Me too. So I am not a huge Instagram person. I I do my best to keep something up on my Instagram page, but I had several friends recommend your page. Hegamer Educator, you are phenomenal at simple messaging about this complex topic of kids and screen time. I've just had so many friends find comfort in your Instagram. Thank you.
- [04:42]
Ash Brandon
Thank you so much. That is such a compliment.
- [04:45]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Thank you. Well, I really appreciate your emphasis on how you take a balanced rather than fear driven approach to screens. And so when I saw you had a book coming out, I jumped on it and reached out because I knew our audience needed to hear your voice.
- [05:01]
Ash Brandon
Well, I'm so glad and I'm so glad that it resonated with you and hopefully with listeners as well.
- [05:07]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Yes, I have no doubt it will as we dig deep here. So I'm going to cut right to the chase and get into the meat of where you're coming from. Your perspective.
- [05:19]
Sponsor Voice
You.
- [05:19]
Dr. Emily Edlin
You have a revolutionary take on screen time and families view screens with moral neutrality. Could you explain that foundational idea a bit and talk about why that's such an important starting point.
- [05:34]
Ash Brandon
You know, this is one of the things that I think when people ask, how did you get into this? I'm like, I don't know. It was just sort of always in the ether for me of even growing up. Things that I enjoyed, like technology, they were just a part of my life. Like, I didn't really think of them as being different in terms of morality. And honestly, I don't think kids tend to do that. Right. I think they tend to view a lot of parts of their life with moral neutrality. But I, I managed to somehow carry that into my adulthood, and I didn't realize that that was unique. And I think, you know, I'm 38, so I'm kind of in that elder millennial ish age bracket. And many of us, I think when we've become parents my age and older, for sure, we have had these similar reckonings with our own perspective on things. And I think we really have seen this with food. I make many, many, many comparisons to food because I think it's very apt that many of us are at a place where we are able to recognize the way we were kind of raised around food in this sort of like snack, well, 100 calorie snack bags of things era, was perhaps not actually that great in the long run in terms of our relationship with food and eating, because it ended up placing a lot of morality on food and in some ways made it harder for us to look at things like the nutrition of certain foods or the purposes or different perspectives or different, like components of foods. And in my mind, it's. It's the same thing, right? It's just, it's applying that same lens to leisure, essentially. Because a lot of uses of technology and screen time, especially for kids, are essentially leisure time. There are ways we're spending our time, and sometimes it's not leisure, sometimes it's utility, especially into adulthood. But for kids, it's often leisure. And I just don't think that moral policing of these things, that's not empowering, right? Like fear or guilt or, or shame, those are not empowering. I am not going to make proactive decisions when I'm feeling bad about things. And instead looking at, with the moral neutrality lens, it allows us to look at the purpose it's serving and the other functions it might be having. So just as Cheetos and Broccoli can have equal moral value, that doesn't mean I serve them the same amount. It doesn't mean they have the same nutritional properties. It doesn't mean I'm going to eat them with the same frequencies. And when we bring in that same lens to aspects of technology like gaming or screens, I think it really broadens how we're able to look at them because we're able to see them as still serving a purpose. And that doesn't mean we want them to be serving the same purpose or same function as other parts of our lives with the same frequency. But we can remove the moral weight out of it because it's not really going to serve us right. If I feel bad about my kid being on a screen, that doesn't help me address maybe the purpose it's serving and it doesn't alleviate the barriers that are maybe requiring or necessitating that I'm using it to begin with.
- [08:54]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Right. And with that analogy, I think that's a great analogy with food and diet culture. You know, what do we know happens when people diet? That scarcity and restriction ends up in going to the other end of the extreme right, overeating. And then you're losing all these positives, like enjoying food, like the joy of eating right. And I can definitely see how parents get sucked into that with screen time. And not to blame parents because I really think media has done a terrible disservice to parents around screen time and instilled a lot of fear.
- [09:34]
Ash Brandon
Oh. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. I think this is one of the things that makes my place on the Internet a bit more unique and is also very difficult, is that it is. The Internet is not particularly good at nuance. Social media is not good at nuance. And nuance doesn't sell like nuance. Nuance is not pithy. Nuance isn't a sound bite. Nuance doesn't sell books like fear. Fear sells. Fear is compelling. Fear gets you to engage. And I. And it's simple. And it also, you know, I mean, you can probably speak to this better than I can, but it feels good. Like, it feels good to be able to pinpoint something and go, aha. Like, that's the problem. I have found the problem. And if I can just scapegoat a bunch of things off on something, then that means it's not me. It means it's not my kid. It means it's not my parenting. But in a bigger, broader lens, it also, I mean, frankly, it can kind of become this, like, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain thing, right? Of like the wizard of Oz, where it can be like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. You don't need to start asking Questions about why is it we don't have paid childcare, like paid parental leave? Why is it we don't have affordable child care? Why is it that we don't have like subsidized affordable housing? Don't ask those questions. Right. Because those are factors that make it so families need to rely on things like screen time because they don't have the capacity or systemic supports to have other ways of meeting that need. But that's so much harder to talk about and to change.
- [11:22]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Right?
- [11:22]
Ash Brandon
Yes, right. And it's so much simpler instead to be like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. It's not that. It's that your kid's on a screen too much. We're not going to ask why is your kid on a screen? We're not going to ask what barrier needs to be lifted so that you could have your child on a screen less? And that's, that's not pithy, that's not a soundbite.
- [11:40]
Dr. Emily Edlin
It's complex. It's hard, it's hard work to untangle these things. But I completely agree. I've written my own pieces about how the especially smartphone debate takes us right away from really paying attention to what's going on with our kids and the parents. I talk a lot too about parental stress and how there's a downstream effect on kids and that's caused by these structural issues, economic issues. But we're not talking about that, we're talking about smartphones. Right? Right. Yeah. So clearly you and I are on the same page, which is why.
- [12:14]
Ash Brandon
Oh, always good to know.
- [12:17]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Um, but I want to get a little bit into just some of the misguidance out there. And one thing is this famous two hour screen limit. Can you talk about what's wrong with that? I think a lot of parents latch onto that because again, it's simple, it's clear. Give me a number. Right. What's wrong with that? 2 hours screen limit.
- [12:42]
Ash Brandon
The AAP has not actually used these guidelines for the better part of a decade at this point. And what they now use I like quite a bit. Because now their guidelines are to make what they call a family media plan. And they encourage families to ask questions like, why are we using screens? Like what's the purpose? What, like what is the scenario? Are we doing it all together? As opposed to a kid being isolated in their room on their own device? How are we integrating into the rest of our lives? I think that is a much more sustainable and manageable view. And yet, despite the fact that that has not been like they haven't used the objective like time metrics in many years. That is still what you find. Like if you Google like screen time amounts for kids, you're going to see these old outdated metrics from the AAP that as you mentioned, kind of top out around two hours and start, you know, at none underage two, except for like video calling. And then it's, you know, up to an hour between 2 and 5 and then up to 2 hours between 5 and 12 and then parental discretion over 12. And of course, even within that it would say, you know, up to an hour or two hours of air quotes, high quality content, which again is like, like what is have a whole separate hour conversation about what is high quality content. But I was really fascinated about where did these really come from and really tried to dig in, into that when I was doing my research chapter and you know, unfortunately kind of confirmed what I already suspected, which is that they don't really come from anything. They are not based on any studies that they were doing that looked at impacts, you know, above or below those numbers. However, one thing that the AAP did mention when they debuted these guidelines is that they were cognizant and wanting to prevent childhood obesity, that it was done partially trying to minimize like high bmi. And obviously there's already stuff to unpack about why BMI is not a, it's not a worthy metric either. But it was really done to try and find this quote unquote balance between, you know, movement and minimizing being sedentary. And I mean, there's a lot to already say, I mean, about how that's already kind of misguided because screen time and, and being, and being in movement are not necessarily mutually exclusive. And that also assumes that like for every minute a child is sitting and looking at a screen, if they weren't on that screen, they would be like doing wind sprints or something.
- [15:26]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Yeah, right. It assumes that like very enriching if they weren't spending that minute on a train. Right.
- [15:33]
Ash Brandon
It assumes one is a direct replacement of the other. And I found that again, not entirely surprising. But I, well, I was initially surprised in sort of that way of going, oh, why am I surprised by this? I shouldn't be surprised by this, of course. And once again, it's all related, right? All this stuff gets very intertwined of the way that we might have a literal diet culture or a fat phobia culture that then intersects with the way that those can apply to other areas of our lives. And I think the other downside to those Sorts of guidelines is that it oversimplifies. It takes all the dimension and all the nuance out of it, frankly. And it gets families myopically focused on one metric that frankly, might be kind of meaningless. Yes, right. It's like, okay, if you're a caregiver who's being told that actually, you know, keep it under an hour, but under an hour is fine. And you're putting your kid in front of the TV and they're watching two episodes of Paw Patrol and then they are bouncing off the walls and screaming when it's time to turn it off and throwing things. Well, that parent is going to go, but wait, I thought this was an okay amount of time. It's under an hour. This is supposed to be fine. And then they are back in that shame place going, it must be my fault. It must be my kid. It must be this, that the other. And it instead being able to say, okay, that didn't work well, like, so that wasn't great. Doesn't feel good for me. Probably doesn't feel good for my kid. And I can look at that neutral again as data and go, okay, I still would like 45 minutes, but that 45 minutes didn't feel good. What can I try differently? Could I try a different show? Could we try something like going outside before we watch? Could we have a really smooth transition to something that's kind of still a preferred task after finding ways to problem solve what isn't working to make it more sustainable? But when we're just focused on the number, then we're. We're losing everything else. And if we think about kids who are growing up into adults, I don't want my kid focus on just the number. I want my kid focused on. How do I feel exactly? What else do I need to be doing in my day? Right?
- [17:57]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
If.
- [17:57]
Ash Brandon
If it's midterms, then I don't want my kid thinking, oh, I can play for up to an hour because an hour is fine. I'm like, no, not if you have a midterm and you need to go study, right? And if it's the week after midterms and everything's done, like, I don't know, play three hours. If it feels okay to you and you have nothing else to do, fine. But it's harder to have those conversations about all the variability if we're just focused on one metric.
- [18:26]
Sponsor Voice
Summer routines live or die by how easy they are. And honestly, if something takes too much effort, I'm out. That's why Groons is my go to it's my one daily pack of gummies covering my greens, vitamins and minerals. Plus it has 6 grams of prebiotic fiber, which is more than 2 cups of broccoli. No mixing powders, no giant pills, no hassle. I just rip open the pack and I'm done. They taste good and they make it easy to stay on top of my health even when life gets busy. Save up to 52% with the code podcast at Groons Co. That's Code Podcast R u n s.co something I really
- [18:57]
Dr. Emily Edlin
appreciate and you've already touched on this, but you spend more time on it in your book than I have seen other people who write about this topic, including myself, and that is social equity concerns. Can you say a little bit more about that?
- [19:11]
Ash Brandon
Yes. So in my Instagram page I've said I have three central tenets, which is that screens should benefit whole families, that we should be having whole family based discussions, which is kind of the premise of my book in general. That screens can be the part of our lives about being the center of our lives. And that screen time is a social inequity issue. And we see a lot of calls. We've already kind of touched on this a bit, but we see so much get placed and blamed on technology and we also see so much get blamed on the individual and kind of put on the individual as a responsibility, like as if they want their kid to have less screen time, they just need to basically martyr themselves further by taking more on with less to make that possible. But in many cases these are issues that an individual is having to bear the brunt of. That was not an individual's fault to begin with, right? When we look at things like not having paid parental leave, not having affordable accessible childcare, not having safe access to the outdoors, climate, disability, neurodivergence, not even touching on things like systemic racism, I mean, all of those things are going to make it more or less possible for a child to be out in the world. You know, if I'm a caregiver, where I'm a single parent or my partner's working the swing shift or overnights or something, and I have three kids or, or one kid and they're crawling underfoot and my option is my kid is running around of potentially being unsafe or like getting my neighbor to complain about the noise, and I'm throwing microwave chicken nuggets into the microwave for the third night in a row because that's all I can do if that's one option or the other option is my kid Sits and watch a 30 minute TV show and I can breathe and decompress for the first time all day long and make, you know, a can of jarred pasta sauce and some noodles and some frozen broccoli. But that's going to be, you know, a better alternative to three days of microwave chicken nuggets. Not knocking microwave chicken nuggets, but if it also means that I get to sit down at the table and be a more present regulated caregiver, like which of those is ultimately better? Right, right, right. The kid who had 30 minutes of screen time and is getting a more nutritiously diverse meal and a parent who is not completely dysregulated. I would say that that is better than having a parent who's like, oh no, gotta keep him off a screen. Just gotta do whatever I gotta do. And that just puts all of that. Once again, this is a problem that was caused by individualism in a lot of ways and not looking out for the collective. And then we've put the brunt on it back on the individual. And so when we hear people say, like, well, kids are on screens too much and they just need to be independent, just send them outside. I'm like, okay, Very, very few people have the privilege of being able to just do that.
- [22:11]
Dr. Emily Edlin
And again, questioning the why of that. Right, right. Like really, is that hour of screen time so damaging? Like even questioning the premise? I think it's really a paradigm shift compared to what is the normal perspective on screen time right now in this climate. Right. And it's a paradigm shift to shift to moral neutrality. And what are we actually worried about?
- [22:42]
Ash Brandon
Yeah, well, that's a very good question. Like, what are we actually worried about? I think for a lot of parents that probably feels really ambiguous. I would wonder if, if many caregivers even have an answer to that of like, what is it we're really worried about? And I'm, I'm not sure I do, like kind of trying to channel that in my inner self. I'm not sure I could answer that question. But I think that we have been influenced.
- [23:06]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Yes.
- [23:07]
Ash Brandon
To, to put anything that we're worried about in that category.
- [23:12]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Right.
- [23:12]
Ash Brandon
Like we kind of lump everything in there. And I'm, I'm worried that they won't want to do anything else. I'm worried that they'll be addicted. Right? Oh my gosh, yes, we'll get into that one. Oh my God, that's quote unquote addicted. They'll be lazy. They won't ever want to do anything else ever again. You know, or that it's going to. And then all the, you know, it could affect this. That the other thing, I think it's just also recognizing, you know, I would, I would love to say that we live in a world where we can unring the bell regarding the ubiquity of technology in our world. Honestly, I would. I think people assume that because I am not anti screen that I must always be pro screen. And that is not at all true. Moral neutrality is not just like a rubber stamp on every use of a thing. Again, similar to food. Like we can be morally neutral about Cheetos and I'm not putting Cheetos on every meal that we eat. So I'm not like pro technology often I actually want to use it less, especially in education. But again that's a systemic issue.
- [24:15]
Dr. Jill Stoddard
Right.
- [24:15]
Ash Brandon
We need to have equitably funded schools. We need to have companies that have gone back to physical textbooks and manipulatives and away from AI driven software tools that are trying to replace educators. Like again, big, big problem. Not a simple solution there. But I would love nothing more than to be able to actually go out in the world and not need my phone.
- [24:36]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Right.
- [24:36]
Ash Brandon
Like, and I would love there, I would love nothing more than to park my car and not have to scan a QR code to pay for parking.
- [24:43]
Dr. Emily Edlin
I know, I mean that's the problem is even if you want to leave your phone, then you're completely ineffective in the world.
- [24:50]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
Yes.
- [24:50]
Dr. Emily Edlin
You can't have the world.
- [24:52]
Ash Brandon
They are essentially a utility. They have become.
- [24:55]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Yeah.
- [24:55]
Ash Brandon
Like having to like needing to have Internet access and frankly needing to have a smartphone have become like the same as other. Yes, they really have. So when we're talking about like preventing our, our teens from having smartphones and all that, all I can think is like we're putting, I'm not saying that we should be handing phones out to kids.
- [25:15]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Yeah.
- [25:16]
Ash Brandon
At any age.
- [25:17]
Dr. Jill Stoddard
Right?
- [25:18]
Ash Brandon
No, absolutely not. But it is not something that is going to be almost at all possible to avoid. And even though I would love for that to be the case, it probably is not. And so if we really feel that there is an over reliance on technology in these varying parts of the world or kids lives, then blaming the technology doesn't help that. Like again, it feels good, but it does not actually address why they have become a necessity. So if that really bothers people, then we need to be targeting the systemic inequities that are causing that over reliance in the first place. Right. Because otherwise it's the equivalent of someone has like a 3 inch gash on their arm and we stick a band aid on it and then we're mad at the band Aid for not doing a good enough job. Right. Like it's, it's not the band aid's fault, like you need stitches. Right, Right. And so it's, it's the same thing. We're blaming the band Aid that it's not doing a good enough job instead of actually addressing the underlying issue. And, but again, that's not simple. Much harder requires a lot more digging in and much bigger solutions like requiring, you know, government and regulation and company collectivism. Right. And so it's much simpler to be like, I don't know, individual caregiver, try harder.
- [26:36]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Right.
- [26:36]
Ash Brandon
And that. Right. Yeah. Just like, I don't know, have you tried doing less for yourself? It's like, yes, most default caregivers in fact have tried that. Also not sustainable.
- [26:49]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Well, and just to kind of piggyback on to the idea of this is the world we're living in, we can't unring the bell and it's such a necessity to have a smartphone navigating the world these days. This is a good segue into something that you may not realize you and I have in common, which is a love of self determination theory. So self determination theory lays the scientific foundation of my book on autonomy supportive parenting. And you use it to build your argument about how to more effectively parent when it comes to screens. So again, just a quick reminder for listeners, this is looking at needs of autonomy, competence and relatedness as the three fundamental human needs for a more fulfilled higher quality of life. It's backed up by decades of science. So let's talk about it. I'm so excited when I saw that in your book, I said they're coming on. So could you talk about how self determination theory relates to screens?
- [27:51]
Ash Brandon
Absolutely. This is so funny to me because actually like the first thing I ever did, talked about almost a decade ago when I was re, was in education looking at, you know, how can we make education feel game? Like not, not this like quote unquote gamification where it's like everything becomes a badge and a reward chart. But like, actually, how do we make it feel like a game? What is it that games do? And this is, this is the place I started. Because games make us anything we enjoy doing. Right? Like it's the whole idea of intrinsic motivation, that things we enjoy doing are going to give us these needs. They're going to make us feel in control somehow relating to other people and assure of ourselves, confident, competent in some way. And video games are incredibly good at doing this. And they, they do it in many ways. And this kind of gets with what people talk about. When they say like, oh, they're addicting, I'm like, well, I mean, yes, some of them, some games are, are set up more like gambling and they can be addicting. But if you think about a commercial off the shelf video game that you'd pay 40, 50, 60 bucks for.
- [29:00]
Dr. Jill Stoddard
Right.
- [29:00]
Ash Brandon
If you're playing a Zelda game or a Mario game, you know that game isn't tricking you into playing more. A game that did that, frankly, you wouldn't want to play much because it would not be giving you these feelings, but instead it's giving you a feeling of I have control in this world. This is why a lot of kids like things like Minecraft because there's kind of no rules at all and you can kind of do whatever. And they are given so much autonomy and especially after a day of school, really, really, really craving that they have zero autonomy at school. I say as a public school educ have zero autonomy all day long. They're just craving autonomy. And then they can open up a world and no one is going to tell them that they're doing the wrong thing and that doesn't go there. And why are you doing that? And they can just do whatever. And then when they get an idea, they can continue to work toward completing it, or if they're playing something more objective, driven, they see the, the level they want to try and complete and they can try to keep going there. And they're going to fail. They're going to fail again and again and again and again. But when they fail, the game says nothing. Like, the game gives almost no feedback of any kind. The game doesn't say, why do you keep doing that? You keep trying that. I think you should stop, or do you need help? Are you sure you know what you're doing? Like the game just says, here's the goal. Like, do it or don't.
- [30:20]
Sponsor Voice
Yep.
- [30:21]
Ash Brandon
I mean it's, it'll be here when you get back.
- [30:23]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Right. Really?
- [30:24]
Ash Brandon
Right, right. And so then when they do succeed, they get this rush of competence. It's like, oh my gosh, I did it right, I did the thing. And they're not doing it for stars and badges and external rewards necessarily. I mean, obviously there are things that then it allows you to access further in the game, but you have to care about the game and you have to care about what you're doing for that to even be meaningful. So I brought that into the book because really that's just about intrinsic motivation. Right. If we were to substitute talking about video games right now with talking about learning to paint or spin clay on a wheel or kick goals in soccer, you know, we could see all of those same things, those same psychological needs being met, but when they're met through one of those other hobbies, we're very quick to go, oh, isn't that great? They just love, they just want to go to soccer every single day. We would probably not say, I'm really worried they're getting addicted to soccer. They want to play soccer every day. Right. But we would say that about screens. And when I bring that up, people will say, well, they're designed differently. I'm like, yeah, yeah, they are designed differently. And once again, to go to food. Like, we have so many foods that are literally engineered to make us want to eat them.
- [31:44]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Yep.
- [31:45]
Ash Brandon
Right. Snack food. Yes. But like honeycrisp apples are engineered so we want to eat them. Right. Like most foods we eat are engineered so we want to eat them. And that is all the more reason that we do talk to kids about like how they make us feel or wow, I could eat a whole bag of Cheetos and still kind of feel hungry. Why is that? That doesn't mean they're a bad food. Just means that they are a different, a different kind of food. And if I'm really hungry, eating a whole bag of Cheetos isn't going to help me. Right. It allows us to have those more nuanced conversations. Have you read Glued on Gaming by Rigby and Ryan?
- [32:19]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
No.
- [32:20]
Ash Brandon
Okay. I cite it a lot in my book. When I first read it, when I was doing research for this book, I had a moment of absolute panic because it's basically a book. Well, it's Ryan of self determination theory. Ryan. And it is about applying these theories to video games. And I read this last year after I had already been talking about this for most of a decade. So I had this moment of like, oh my God, have I been inadvertently plagiarizing these people? But no, they published it after I had started talking about it. So I was like, okay, phew, we're fine. But the Glued on Gaming, which has sort of a, sort of a fear based title, is. It's great. It is all about applying elements of self determination theory to games and really interrogating like, no, it probably isn't addiction. No, it probably isn't just a constant dopamine drip. It is a Lot more nuanced than that. And they have a fantastic chapter specifically about what they call the need density hypothesis.
- [33:26]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Yeah. You get into that in your book a little bit.
- [33:28]
Ash Brandon
Yes. Where they're talking about how, like, yes, these things are meeting needs and yes, there are other ways of meeting those needs. Like I could go kick goals in soccer or I could play FIFA soccer.
- [33:39]
Dr. Emily Edlin
And you're describing my son, by the way, who I was playing with.
- [33:42]
Ash Brandon
Oh, perfect. Well. And their need density hypothesis basically says, look like a video game is going to accomplish that need satisfaction more consistently, more immediately and more densely, because the game's going to behave the same way every time. It's giving you immediate. Yes, immediate and consistent feedback. And therefore you're getting that feeling of competence or autonomy or relatedness more densely, like more quickly than if you were to go do that out in the real world. But what they bring up is that that is not necessarily bad. Right. Like, if that is the only way that they're meeting that need, then that it can be something that leads to an unhealthy or potentially, quote, unquote, addictive relationship to something. But again, that isn't unique to technology.
- [34:34]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Yes.
- [34:35]
Ash Brandon
That can be anything. But their point, which I think is a great one, is, you know, we don't want that to be the only way that someone is meeting a need. If they think, every time I come home from school, I'm so tired of being told what to do, I want to feel in control. If the only way they know how to feel in control is to play Minecraft, then that's what they're going to do every day. But that's not because they're addicted to Minecraft. It's because they want to feel in control. And why I think it's so important to stay neutral is that if I'm blaming the screen, then all I see as the problem is my kid likes Minecraft too much. But if I'm staying neutral and going, what is it they like? What are they getting from this?
- [35:17]
Dr. Emily Edlin
What needs being met?
- [35:19]
Ash Brandon
Exactly. What need is being satisfied by this? And if it's a chance to explore freely and feel in control, there are many ways to achieve that. Right. And now I can go, oh, okay, so yes, you can play Minecraft for half an hour and then we're going to build with Lego or we're going to draw freely, or we're going to make a recipe. We're going to make something in the kitchen without a recipe. Right, Right. There's so many ways to achieve that feeling, and that doesn't mean kids are always going to like that as much as other things. Right. That's like unfortunate part of parenting is that they're probably often not going to like those things as much, but we want them to have other ways of meeting that need so that they don't think that the only way they feel in control is playing Minecraft because we don't want them to think I'm only good at Minecraft or I am only good at. Because what we want them to think is, oh, I'm good at being creative.
- [36:13]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Right, Right.
- [36:14]
Ash Brandon
And I can be creative in all of these different ways as opposed to I'm only good at Minecraft and my parents hate it and so I should keep that to myself and not talk to them about it. I mean that just goes to so many. Yeah, exactly.
- [36:26]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Well, I was thinking about it as I was finishing your book. My 11 year old who is a huge soccer kid and you could say maybe obsessed with soccer, he injured his ankle at a game and he couldn't play, which was a huge loss for him for a week, week and a half. Right. And so what did he do? He played a little soccer. Yep. And it happened to be the same week that the new one came out. So like so much excitement. Right. And he played a lot more video games and he kept saying, but I can't play real soccer. So he was meeting his needs in that way. And to me, if I weren't thinking along your lines, I would have seen a kid who is playing too many video games. Right. But instead really being able to formulate what needs are being met.
- [37:25]
Dr. Jill Stoddard
Right.
- [37:26]
Dr. Emily Edlin
And it's actually helping him cope with this.
- [37:29]
Dr. Jill Stoddard
Right.
- [37:30]
Ash Brandon
I'm glad you brought. Yes. The coping. Right. Well, I think that's something we also hear a lot with the quote unquote addiction or dopamine has become this four letter word, particularly with technology and oh my gosh, I hate it. But that also of like, well, it's just this constant dopamine and they're addicted and sometimes like you said, it's to substitute for something that is inaccessible in some way. And sometimes it is coping. And that doesn't always mean that it is like sustainable coping. But you know, in the case of, of your kid, it's like we're talking about a week. Right. A week and a half. We're not talking about like six months in a body cast or something. Right. Then we'd be having a different conversation. So another benefit of that neutrality is that if I'm myopically focused on you Know, minutes or whatever thing I'm thinking is very important. I'm trying to minimize screen time as much as possible. I'm going to look at my kid trying to play more FIFA for a week and go, oh, this is a problem.
- [38:36]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Right?
- [38:37]
Ash Brandon
As opposed to. No, the problem is his foot is hurt. Like, the problem is he's injured his.
- [38:42]
Dr. Emily Edlin
In the world.
- [38:43]
Ash Brandon
Right, right, right, right. And of course, if he instead were wanting to read soccer magazines all day or even watch soccer.
- [38:53]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Well, right. Which he also did, by the way. So he watched games and listened to a soccer podcast. Right. So it wasn't just FIFA, but the
- [39:02]
Ash Brandon
thing that would stand out to us is probably FIFA. The FIFA, right. Not the looking at soccer magazines or watching footage or listening to podcasts or what have you. So with like coping. And I think this also probably goes along with dopamine and where we're getting it from. I've had this conversations in podcasts before where sometimes we do need the lowest hanging fruit. Right. Screens, tech, whatever, sugar, all there can be this sort of lowest hanging fruit of maybe a, maybe dopamine. And that can also be more of a coping mechanism as opposed to like a long term, more sustainable strategy of coping. But sometimes we need that to bridge us to a more sustainable thing. I've mentioned this in podcasts before, but if I am very, if I'm very anxious, like if I'm. My brain is churning on a million things there, I can, I've tried many things, right. If you came up to me in that moment and you were like, let's take a deep breath and do a meditation. I would be like, get out of my face.
- [40:10]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
Exactly.
- [40:12]
Ash Brandon
I would be like, I'll tell you where we're going to be doing a guided meditation. Like, I would be. I couldn't access it, right. It's inaccessible to me.
- [40:19]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Right.
- [40:20]
Ash Brandon
And sometimes people will say they'll, you know, watch a comfort TV show. No, I can't do that because my brain is like, oh, we can just, we can keep churning and keep doom spiraling while you watch, while you're watching your comfort TV show. For me, if I am really struggling with that kind of thought, what I need to do is I need to watch Jackass movies. And it is amazing how fast this works for me. Like, I can watch 15 minutes and be like, I'm fine. Okay, I'm okay now. Not like, I'm fixed.
- [40:54]
Dr. Emily Edlin
It's like a dose. That's your dose. That works, right?
- [40:57]
Ash Brandon
Well, because it's compelling enough, I have to pay attention. Cause if I'M not paying attention. It's not actually entertaining anymore, Right. You can't half watch that. You miss the fun thing. I have to watch. I have to pay attention. I laugh, right? So, like, I'm obviously getting like some, some positive feelings, right? I'm. I'm laughing, right. I'm often doing it with my spouse. So there's like some amount of a casual connection happening and it breaks me out of it, right. Enough so that then I could go, okay, could I read a book now? Right. Could I get up and move my body now? Right. But if you just came up to me in the moment and said, let's go for a walk, like, no, I'm just going to doom spiral while we're on a walk. It's not going to help.
- [41:42]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Right? So it's the bridge.
- [41:43]
Ash Brandon
Exactly. It bridges me over. And so, you know, I've mentioned this before, but one day we were on a train in the middle of Japan, and we've been out all day long at an incredible park. Wonderful day as a family. We got on the train, we had like a 45 minute commute, and I looked at my kid and went, oh, no, we, we overspent. Right? That moment where you're like, oh, no.
- [42:10]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Yeah, we crossed over.
- [42:12]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
Yep.
- [42:12]
Ash Brandon
And I was like, oh, this kid is hangry. This kid is super dysregulated. And we are in its rush hour and we have like at least 45 minutes and we have to do like some transfers and some train stations and this is like go time. And I, I literally opened my phone and handed my kid my phone with a. A game I knew would not hype them up on it. And they basically just like, listened to music the whole time and had a wonderful time. And they, they felt like they were winning. I felt like I was winning. I was like, everybody's winning because everyone else on this train is winning. And that bridged them over. So then we could talk, play a game of I Spy, do something else, get on with our lives. But if we're always thinking about how that thing is bad. Cause it's easy dopamine or it's addicting or whatever. Again, different things are gonna have different purposes in our lives. And if my kid stayed up way too late and they're exhausted the next day in college, imagine if I were like, no, you shouldn't get a latte. That's a quick fix. You just need to get more sleep. Cool. That doesn't help in the immediate. Right? We can do the quick fix. Exactly. We can do the quick fix and the long term solution we want to know which like what's the right tool for the job?
- [43:29]
Dr. Jill Stoddard
Hey listeners, I have a brand new office in Portsmouth, New Hampshire and I made myself a pretty valuable addition because I brought my Aqua True countertop water purifier to share with my suite mates. So no more contaminated tap water or microplastics from bottled water for a whole bunch of New Hampshire mental health providers. Now they too get to join 98% of customers who say their drinking water is cleaner, safer and healthier. Really, it's no wonder Aqua True has been featured in Business Insider, Popular Science and Good housekeeping. Head to aquatrue.com now and get 20% off your purifier using free promo code POTC. Aqua Tru even comes with a 30 day best tasting water guarantee or your money back. Take the guesswork out of pure great tasting water with this exclusive podcast only offer now at aquatrue.com that's a Q U-A-T-R-U.com using promo code POTC. And remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting the podcast.
- [44:32]
Progressive Insurance Announcer
Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why customers have enjoyed Progressive's name your price tool for years now. With the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive.com, find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law.
- [45:03]
Dr. Emily Edlin
So I do want to just take a quick stop on dopamine because as a psychologist, the way popular media often discusses dopamine really frustrates me.
- [45:14]
Ash Brandon
I was going to say, I bet you must be so angry. Like it makes me angry. And I'm not in the profession.
- [45:19]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Yeah, I mean it's like, just remember, anything pleasurable releases dopamine. It doesn't mean it's addictive.
- [45:27]
Ash Brandon
I cannot tell you how validating this is because I'm saying that. But I'm not a psychologist.
- [45:32]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
Right, Right.
- [45:32]
Ash Brandon
So like, I'm fully aware that I am not a professional. I'm like. But I'm like, I'm pr. I feel pretty confident here. I'm not saying this for no reason. Anything. I mean, I. Yeah, I've mentioned that a lot where I'm like, a hot tub is gonna do that. Like anything. Because it's literally how we decide that we like something. Right. Like, if it didn't release dopamine, we wouldn't like it.
- [45:51]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Yeah. So like cocaine and video games are different.
- [45:57]
Ash Brandon
Yes. Actually, the, the book I mentioned earlier, Rigby and Ryan's glued on gaming, they bring up this, what they call the dopamine hypothesis, and they use this exact thing where they say, you know, cocaine is a chemical. Right. Right. Video games are not a substance, they're not a chemical. Right. They're an activity.
- [46:13]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Right. It's like cocaine is changing your brain because it's going into your body, whereas it's a chemical agent going into your body that changes your brain. Whereas video games, it's all the external experience of the video game that is affecting the dopamine release.
- [46:29]
Ash Brandon
Right. And the oversimplification of that in many ways. Like that. That comparison is so insidious, I think, in a lot of ways, and predatory, I think, on parents. But also it imagines that video games are one thing.
- [46:46]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Yes.
- [46:46]
Ash Brandon
And I find that to be such an outdated, like, frankly, a really outdated way of looking at them. I'm like, is this 1985? Why are we talking about video games as if they are like one thing? You know, like video games are thousands of different iterations and versions and lengths and delivery mechanisms, and they're not inherently
- [47:10]
Dr. Emily Edlin
addictive in any way. If you think of, for example, I do not enjoy video games. I have tried. I have sat down with them. They're not my thing.
- [47:18]
Ash Brandon
Thank you.
- [47:19]
Dr. Emily Edlin
They don't release dopamine for my brain.
- [47:21]
Ash Brandon
Exactly. I've said this before. Like, I don't like Minecraft. If you could stick me in a room for a month, I'm not going to come out addicted to Minecraft because I don't like Minecraft.
- [47:33]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Right.
- [47:33]
Ash Brandon
So, like, no, it is not just some insidious dopamine machine. I am not going to like it. There are certain kinds of activities that I do or do not like. And again, if you go back to, like, the things that are intrinsically motivating, the kinds of video games I like are similar in their kind of objective seeking structure to other things I like. Like in my bio, I say I like baking and hiking and video games. And they are very similar. They're very objective driven, or at least the video games I like are very objective driven. Where it's like, here's a recipe, follow it, you get the product. Here's a hiking trail, follow it, you get to the place. Here's an objective in a video game, do it, you, you succeed. And a kid who's really into Minecraft, they probably would prefer not having a recipe. They would probably would prefer doing maybe like a martial art where it's really improvisatory, like sparring in jiu jitsu as opposed to learning forms in karate or taekwondo and figuring out again, figuring out why do they like this thing. And it's probably not because it's, you know, an evil dopamine factory.
- [48:41]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
Right.
- [48:42]
Ash Brandon
It's probably much more, it's giving them a feeling. And I think, I hope that this is true when we're talking about, you know, addiction or a relationship to something that's, that's less helpful. It's much less about the thing and much more about our relationship to the
- [49:00]
Dr. Emily Edlin
thing and what's going on with us. So I think when we're worried about our kids using screens too much, let's say that's our worry that it seems one of the questions I ask is it replacing other activities that are meant to fulfill needs also. So, and you, you do bring this up. It's like when it's one the one way to try and meet all the needs, then that's more problematic. But you cite research that when that's happening, those kids and teenagers are not receiving as much well being from the playing of the video game.
- [49:36]
Ash Brandon
Yes. I thought that was so fascinating. And I think that also came from that Rigby and Ryan book where they talked about how when they looked at players who really did have an unhealthy relationship with games, they were more, they were playing to avoid a negative feeling more than they were like trying to achieve a good one. So like people who did not have a problematic relationship, they reported feeling better after playing. They felt more competent, they felt more in control. Again, this needs satisfaction. But the players who had a less healthy relationship with the game, even though they played all the time, they reported less satisfaction after they were done. So for them it was more about avoiding the negative. Right. Avoiding how bad I feel. So I have to try and feel a little better. And again, it's about the relationship with the thing. And I do think it is important to think about the other ways that we can meet this need. I think that's kind of a, we have to be able to get there because the phrase of like, what is a screen replacing? Is quite common in the sort of screen time parenting advice areas. And I, I honestly kind of, I don't really like that phrase because if you are kind of entering into this space or you're a Parent who's coming from a place of seeing them as bad. If we say, well, just ask yourself what it's replacing, you can come up with 15 things that they're replacing that you think are better. Right. Probably a bunch of things that you would never have your kid actually do
- [51:11]
Dr. Emily Edlin
or they wouldn't want to do. That's the other thing. We have all these grand ideas for their enrichment, but they don't want to do those things.
- [51:19]
Ash Brandon
Right. But we, I mean, people will be like, well, they could just be doing nothing and staring into space. They could, they could be reorganizing their toys. Right. Like we're going to come up with anything because. Because the supposition there is. Because screens should only be okay after everything else of more value has been done. And it's okay to just have leisure. Like, leisure is. We need leisure in our lives. So. But I think what you're saying is also important. We don't want it to be the only way they're meeting a need.
- [51:45]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Exactly. And so it's just having, again, I think the morally neutral perspective really helps our emotional response to their screen time. I'm so grateful we had our time today for this discussion, and I really wish we had about double the time because there's so much more. But I, I really thought these points. Points were the most important kind of foundational shifts for parents and caregivers, anyone working with kids, to really hear this way of thinking as a way to start shifting into changing behaviors. So I will give a shout out to the entirety of your book, which we thank you. Could not get into all of it, but there's a lot of very specific strategies and you give some really important frameworks for exactly what to do and choices around how to create this screen time kind of approach in every family in a flexible way.
- [52:53]
Ash Brandon
And I will say, if people are hearing that and they're like, oh, no, please don't tell me exactly what to do. Like, I would say it's much more, choose your own adventure. There is no one right way. Right.
- [53:03]
Dr. Emily Edlin
I almost laughed when you have this huge, like, list of all these potential responses after something has gone poorly. But my favorite was your last option, which was do nothing. And I loved this because sometimes things are just hard and we don't need to fix it or have some grand solution. Sometimes it was just hard and we can move on. So that's just a taste of your, like, very balanced, realistic approach.
- [53:31]
Ash Brandon
Oh, thank you. I'm glad you brought that one up.
- [53:33]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Yes.
- [53:33]
Ash Brandon
Cause sometimes it's like, hey, Maybe this isn't a problem that needs to be solved. Maybe it's just hard.
- [53:38]
Dr. Emily Edlin
We just love it.
- [53:38]
Ash Brandon
Try again tomorrow.
- [53:39]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Yeah.
- [53:39]
Ash Brandon
Yeah.
- [53:41]
Dr. Emily Edlin
So, Ash, thank you so much for everything that you do in the world.
- [53:45]
Ash Brandon
Oh, thank you.
- [53:46]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Coming on today, where can people find you?
- [53:50]
Ash Brandon
You can find me on the Internet at thegamer Educator. On Instagram, I have a substack in which I just cross post everything so you can, like, if you don't really want to engage with social media. My substack is also hegamer Educator and you can get everything I put on Instagram for free and just ends up in your email inbox or your substack app. And then my book, Power Managing Screen Time to Benefit the Whole Family is available wherever you buy books, paperback, ebook, or audiobook. And if you feel strongly about the sound of my voice, I read my audiobook. So that can sway you one way or the other.
- [54:25]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Thank you so much, Ash.
- [54:27]
Ash Brandon
Thank you.
- [54:31]
Dr. Emily Edlin
So I'm here with Debbie to talk about my conversation that you just listened to with Ash Brandon. And I am so eager to hear Debbie's thoughts because we're actually recording this just the day after I talked to Ash, and it's still really fresh in my head and I still have lots of thoughts. So, Debbie, what was your take on the conversation?
- [54:51]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
Can I start by just singing your praises, Emily, you might feel embarrassed, but just don't edit this out because I just want people to know how to me, you are the voice of reason when it comes to all things parenting. And so as a parent recently, I've had a couple things that were a little bit difficult as a parent to try to navigate. And I thought to myself multiple times, what would Emily say about this? And I've been known to go look things up on your sub stack and in your book when I'm just feeling lost at sea.
- [55:21]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Oh, that's like the highest praise ever for someone putting content out there.
- [55:27]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
Oh, good. Well, I mean, I feel like we're sort of like minded in a lot of ways, and we have similar values around a lot of issues. And I just think that sometimes we need the voice of reason in this world. You mentioned the role of media and these cultural factors and how we moralize, and there's a lot of fearful messages out there, and I think we have to stay grounded. And to me, this conversation that you had with Ash was another just really helpful, nuanced conversation about this really complex world of screens and social media. It was great.
- [56:01]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Our goal was to really work on mindset, you know, and the book is full of really specific strategies and techniques and plans. So it's not just theory, but I thought it was so fundamental to really examine how we think about screens as a starting point to then make behavior change. And even with my mission to be very grounded and calm and reasonable, I get swept up in the fear and panic just like everyone else. And like I said with my own son, who started to play more, who started to do more gaming when he was injured, I started to feel a little anxiety about it. And I think that is a result of our cultural climate. So even the best of us, the most well intentioned, the most well informed, the most thoughtful, get swept up in the anxiety.
- [56:59]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
Well, one thing I just wanted to revisit from the conversation, because we see it in so many different ways, is this idea of moralizing and cultural narratives around things. And of course, you make the parallel with diet, culture and food and how we vilify and moralize. And, you know, since I do a lot of work in this space of burnout, I. I'm really attuned to how we moralize around rest and productivity. And one part of that is cyber loafing. So even for adults and then also for our kids, I think a lot of times we get these strong cultural messages about something rather than asking that really important question, like, how's this working for me? And with cyber Loafing, I'll just kind of elaborate on that because I really do feel better if I'm not on my phone too much, if I'm not scrolling around on Instagram all the time. I actually took it off my phone because I was like, this is just, you know, I know it's not that great for me. I. I'd rather read and then go to bed early. And so I feel better. But then I also think there's a time and a place for cyber loafing. Like, there are nights when I'm like, I just feel like doing that. And I don't want to then add to that by getting in this panic or shame spiral around it or guilt,
- [58:13]
Dr. Emily Edlin
you know, I think there can be
- [58:14]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
a lot of guilt, like that's bad, you know, and so I just think being aware of those cultural messages, whether it's for our kids or us, it can really help us see things clearly. And again, how's this working for me?
- [58:25]
Dr. Emily Edlin
And I love the frame of screen time as leisure.
- [58:30]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
Yes.
- [58:31]
Dr. Emily Edlin
You know that this is a form of leisure and we don't need to moralize the leisure. I know that one of my greatest loves is at the End of every night, when I'm sitting on the couch watching tv, I'm doing my New York Times word games on my iPad. So I'm on a screen. I'm doing things on two screens because I'm also watching a show. I'm doing all the no nos. And yet it feels so good for my brain. So I'm just gonna accept it and enjoy it and not moralize texting each
- [59:02]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
other our wordles Emily. Cause that'd be fun. I also think there's a little bit of this false sense that we weren't on screens a few decades ago. And we just went to this 90s exhibit at the history Colorado museum, and I took my kids to it, and it was really fun. And there are all these, like, things about pop culture and me. And I was just remembering all the tv, mtv, Nintendo, you know, I think sometimes it's almost like we think those were the good old days when we were just never on screens. And it's like, well, the technology has changed, but I spent a lot of time watching tv. I'm losing around as a kid. And, you know, it's like, did it arm me? I don't know. Maybe, but not really.
- [59:42]
Dr. Emily Edlin
I don't know. Look at us now. Look at us now.
- [59:45]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
Right? Exactly.
- [59:46]
Dr. Emily Edlin
We're having good lives. We're living.
- [59:48]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
Look how we turned out. No, I'm just kidding.
- [59:50]
Dr. Emily Edlin
Yeah. So I really hope listeners got a lot out of this. And, you know, my biggest hope with any of our episodes is that people end up making really positive change, concrete change in their lives. And so hopefully this can help parents and other adults with kids, you know, who are around kids, just have a more relaxed and calm approach to screens. Thank you.
- [60:23]
Dr. Jill Stoddard
Thank you for listening to psychologists off the clock. You can now listen to our podcast ad free by becoming a supporter on Patreon. You can link to Patreon on our website or go to patreon.com offtheclocksite.
- [60:35]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
If you enjoy our podcast, you can
- [60:36]
Ash Brandon
help us out by leaving leaving a
- [60:37]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
review and sharing this episode with a friend or an enemy who would enjoy it.
- [60:41]
Dr. Emily Edlin
You can get more psychology tips by subscribing to our fabulous newsletter on Substack. Or if you're still addicted to social media, find us on Instagram and LinkedIn. We'd like to thank our Rockstar production manager, Jaydeen Stout Williams.
- [60:54]
Dr. Debbie Sorensen
Now for the boring part. This podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only and is not meant to be a substitute for mental health treatment. If you're looking for mental health treatment, please visit the resources page of our website offtheclockpsych.com.