Sobriety, Fitness, Gratitude: The Tools That Built Michael Chernow’s Life

Summary

Pursuit of Wellness: "Sobriety, Fitness, Gratitude: The Tools That Built Michael Chernow’s Life"

Release Date: January 27, 2025
Host: Mari Llewellyn
Guest: Michael Chernow

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Pursuit of Wellness, host Mari Llewellyn sits down with Michael Chernow, a New York City-based restauranteur, entrepreneur, and wellness advocate. Michael shares his transformative journey from battling addiction to achieving sobriety, and how fitness, gratitude, and a steadfast commitment to wellness have shaped his life and businesses.

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Michael's Journey: From Addiction to Sobriety

Michael opens up about his tumultuous path through addiction, detailing his struggles with substances from a young age.

• Early Addiction and Struggles:

  • [00:00] Michael recounts, "I died, overdosed on heroin and came back to life," illustrating the severity of his addiction and his near-death experience.
  • [05:05] He emphasizes, "Change is possible for anyone and everyone," using his own life as evidence.

• Critical Turning Point:

  • [17:10] Michael describes a pivotal moment when he was fired from his job due to his addiction: "That was it. I don't know how it was like...four hours later, I was using again."
  • [20:26] The intervention by Karen and Marcus was instrumental. Michael reflects, "Marcus changed my whole entire life," highlighting the importance of support systems in recovery.

• Commitment to Sobriety:

  • [26:23] Michael discusses the structure of 12-step programs: "There's a lot of things that you have to do...it doesn't have to be...eat well, move your body...and have a connection to a higher power."

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Tools for Wellness: Fitness, Nutrition, Gratitude, and Prayer

Michael delves into the essential tools that have supported his wellness journey.

• Fitness as a Lifeline:

  • [37:46] Michael explains, "Fitness saves. And had saved my life," detailing how physical activity became a cornerstone of his recovery.
  • [40:43] He introduces the "three Cs" of wellness—Commitment, Confidence, and Courage—stressing that "commitment is the gateway to happiness."

• Nutrition and Gut Health:

  • [73:02] Michael shares his holistic approach to nutrition, incorporating gut health to combat chronic Lyme disease: "I've got chronic Lyme disease. So the Lyme has really suppressed my immune system."
  • [75:30] He emphasizes the importance of gut health: "The immune system really, really does reside predominantly in the gut."

• Gratitude and Prayer:

  • [31:34] Michael highlights his daily prayer routine: "The one thing that I have done without fail, over the last 20 years is pray."
  • [33:39] He articulates the non-religious aspect of his prayer practice: "It's not a religious thing for me. It's an ask for help."

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Entrepreneurship: Founding Meatball Shop and Seymour's

Michael recounts his entrepreneurial ventures, illustrating how his experiences informed his business strategies.

• Meatball Shop:

  • [55:10] Michael narrates his entrepreneurial spirit from a young age: "I've thought entrepreneurially kind of my whole life."
  • [59:07] He details the success of Meatball Shop, noting, "We had six locations in the city...People were waiting four hours to eat meatballs at the meatball shop."

• Seymour's:

  • [60:37] Transitioning from Meatball Shop, Michael founded Seymour's, a sustainable seafood restaurant: "I wanted to create a healthy restaurant that...people can go on dates there and not feel like they're going to walk out with dreadlocks."
  • [64:26] The COVID-19 pandemic presented challenges, prompting Michael to pivot his business strategy.

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Current Ventures: Creatures of Habit

Michael introduces his latest venture, Creatures of Habit, a brand focused on wellness through nutrition.

• Inception of Creatures of Habit:

  • [70:20] Michael shares the inspiration behind his product: "Creatures of Habit... I committed to it. And I began the journey of creating Creatures of Habit because I thought...I can tell my story that change is possible 100%."

• Product Details:

  • [73:12] The product features gluten and glyphosate-free oats with added protein: "It's a blend of gluten and glyphosate free oats, 30 grams of protein, plant protein...super tasty and super satiating."

• Personal Health and Product Development:

  • [75:30] Michael discusses overcoming gut health issues through his product: "Chia seeds, flax seeds, pumpkin seeds...doesn't mess with my digestion."
  • [78:39] He emphasizes the authenticity of his product development: "There's nothing I feel more connected to and authentic about than what I fuel my body with every single day."

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Wellness Philosophy: Balance, Commitment, Confidence, Courage

Michael articulates his comprehensive philosophy on wellness, underscoring the importance of balance and self-care.

• Balance as Key:

  • [84:36] Michael defines wellness as, "It's about balance," explaining how he structures his day to maintain harmony between self-care, family, and business.
  • [85:01] He states, "Wellness and happiness are kind of one and the same," emphasizing the need for boundaries to achieve personal well-being.

• Commitment to Daily Wins:

  • [41:36] The "three Cs" framework: "Commitment, Confidence, and Courage." Michael elaborates how consistent daily actions build confidence and courage.
  • [45:10] He advises, "The wins that we control, the little ones, are the ones that make the biggest impact."

• Endurance and Resilience:

  • [50:04] Michael stresses endurance as a critical trait for entrepreneurs and individuals alike: "Endurance is key...just stay in the game, no matter how hard it gets."

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Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Michael Chernow's journey is a testament to the transformative power of wellness practices and resilience. From overcoming severe addiction to building successful businesses centered around health and nutrition, his story offers profound insights and actionable advice.

• Notable Quotes:

  • [37:46] "Fitness saves. And had saved my life."
  • [31:34] "The one thing that I have done without fail, over the last 20 years is pray."
  • [85:01] "Wellness and happiness are kind of one and the same."

• Actionable Advice:

  • Establish a daily routine that includes physical activity, proper nutrition, and moments of gratitude or prayer.
  • Focus on small, consistent wins to build confidence and maintain momentum.
  • Seek support systems and don’t hesitate to ask for help when needed.

• Philosophical Insights:

  • Wellness is defined by balance and the ability to set boundaries.
  • Endurance and commitment are crucial for both personal growth and entrepreneurial success.

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Where to Find Michael Chernow

• Website: creatureshabit.com
• Social Media: Follow Michael on social platforms under the handle @MichaelChernow
• Podcast: Creatures of Habit Podcast – Focused on habits, rituals, and routines of inspiring individuals.

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Michael Chernow’s story on Pursuit of Wellness serves as an inspiring guide for anyone seeking to transform their life through wellness, resilience, and purposeful living.

Transcript

[A]

I know for sure that change is possible for anyone and everyone. Like, I just know that because I'm a living example and I don't believe I'm unique. I just know that, you know, I died, overdosed on heroin and came back to life.

[B]

This is the Pursuit of Wellness podcast and I'm your host, Mari Llewellyn. What is up, guys? Welcome back to the show. Today we have an amazing guest, an amazing conversation with Michael Chernow. Michael is a restauranteur, entrepreneur and wellness advocate based in New York City. The reason I love Michael is he has such an incredible story from addiction to sobriety. This is a conversation even if you've never struggled with addiction or you don't know anyone with addiction. There are so many tools and principles in this conversation that I feel like are great takeaways for anyone on a health journey, a healing journey, just trying to be better in 2025. He has such actionable advice that's really easy to take on and start implementing his morning routine the way he approaches fitness and diet. I think you guys are going to really love this conversation. He's now an entrepreneur. He started many successful restaurants. He has an oatmeal brand, and we just have a lot to learn from Michael and we had a really good convo together. So I really hope you guys enjoy this one. Thank, thank you guys for supporting the new Bloom energy drink. It has been absolutely amazing to see how much you guys love it, seeing all of your tags on Instagram and how much you're enjoying it during your workouts and the work day. Our new flavor, Juicy Orange just came out, which is my new personal favorite and I'm seeing all of you guys love it. As a thank you, we are giving you guys an exclusive access to 20 off our best selling flavors. Head to Amazon, go to the description box of this episode and we'll put a link right there. Which, without further ado, let's hop right in.

[A]

I've listened to a bunch of your podcasts and there's so many things that I kind of want to touch on though. Like I love the Andy Galin HRV. The fact that you've got a 200 HRV is nuts.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know why.

[A]

Well, it's so interesting because there's like hearing him say it, that it is potentially a genetic thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is like a savior for me because I know, I know a couple of other people who are hard charging people that have these like 160, 150 HRVs and I'm like, lucky if I scratch the surface of 60.

[B]

You know what's funny, though? My husband, he's super in shape. Bodybuilder, takes care of himself, like, does all the things. And his HRV is trash compared to mine.

[A]

I think he's like in the 30s, 50s.

[B]

Yeah. Like, I think it's genetic. I do that.

[A]

And. And then also I think. I think it would be really fun to talk about gut cleanse, because I'm deep in a gut cleanse right now.

[B]

Are you?

[A]

I'm three months into a gut cleanse.

[B]

Oh, let's definitely talk about it.

[A]

When you had the parasite woman on.

[B]

I was just like, okay. So that episode, like, rocked everyone's world.

[A]

Mine included.

[B]

Mine included. I can't eat sushi anymore.

[A]

I don't eat sushi after that. And my wife was so.

[B]

After my episode.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, God, I'm sorry.

[A]

No, don't be sorry. You know, like, I. So in this gut cleanse, I'm like, there's, there's like a number of different proteins I'm allowed to eat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And white fish is one of them. Right. And so, like, I mean, white fish is really kind of. I mean, I'm down for white fish. I spent years in bodybuilding competing, so I ate a ton of white fish when I was doing that.

[B]

Tilapia.

[A]

Tilapia, unfortunately, it's disgusting, but like, it was like flounder and tilapia. Yeah. Because cod is like the worst thing on the planet in terms of worms. Like, I don't know if you know, is it? Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Oh, no. Fish and chips in the UK then.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. So I bought actually like a couple of months ago, prior to listening to the Worm Queen episode, I bought catfish. It looked good and it was wild. So I bought it and I was cooking it and like, I kind of cut into it just to see if it was cooked on the inside. And I pulled a like 3 to 4 inch long worm out of it.

[B]

Stop.

[A]

I swear to God, stop. Yeah. So I send my health, like, I've optimized my blood work to like. I mean, I've been working on it for very, very consistently getting labs every three to four months for the last almost three years. And I started at like a 60% optimization, like in range, and now I'm at a 93 optimization. So I've really been focused on it. And I got my, like my biological age sent to me in the last round of labs and It's. I'm like 26 years old biologically.

[B]

Wait, so what's your real age?

[A]

44.

[B]

Oh, stop.

[A]

Yeah, so that was like a massive eye opener. And, like, I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, I've really been focused and it really has worked.

[B]

That's paid off. And also, I mean, after hearing your story and everything you've been through, I think that's really encouraging for anyone who's like, okay, I'm sure you can relate, but, like, when I think about myself in college and how badly I treated my body, like, binge drinking, awful food, like Aderall, everything I used to do in college, I kind of am motivated to reverse that. And it sounds like you have, like, done that.

[A]

I mean, I'm gonna knock on some wood. But, like, I believe, and my message is you can. The past is history. You know, like, if you allow the past to sort of dictate how you feel or the decision making process that you use now, it will ultimately hinder your ability to succeed or your ability to change it. I know for sure that change is possible for anyone and everyone. Like, I just know that because I'm a living example and I don't believe I'm unique. I just know that I died, overdosed on heroin, and came back to life and then spent the last. You know, I've been in recovery for 20 years, so I've spent the last many years focused on my health. But I do think that there's something that people should just like, you know, there's a lot of people that listen to the podcast. I've really been like a guinea pig for my life in this world of wellness. And I got introduced to it 20 years ago when wellness was, like, not even really a term, I don't think. You know, in 2004, it was pretty niche. And when you thought about wellness, you thought about, like, money. Like, you needed to have money to be able to do it, right? It was like. And then, like, as wellness became a little bit more mainstream, it was really like whitewashed wood, cactuses, fucking incense, and like tapestries on the wall, Right? Like, it was just like that, like, thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I'm. I think what I've kind of tried to do in my content in my businesses is say, hey, like, you don't have to be any way to experience this world of wellness, right? It's literally just saying, hey, like, make a decision, you know, on a day to day basis, right? You're gonna fuck up. The only perfect thing you have to do is get back on track, you know? But I just know that, like, there's so many things that are, that are thrown at us that, like, add pressure, right? Cold plunge, sauna, red light, breath, work, meditation, journaling, reading, all of it. And I love all that shit, and I have all of that shit. But if you eat well, 80% of the time, you. You move your body in, in, In a form of exercise four to five days a week. It doesn't have to be crazy. You get sufficient sleep, at least try to. For me, that's like seven hours. And also for me, like, I have a connection to a higher power. Like, everything's gonna be okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you can live, you can talk, you don't have to do all the other things. It's nice to have the access, right? It's nice to be able to use supplements. I love supplements. But I also know that, like, during the holidays, I go off. Yeah, I go off. The only other thing that I. That I think is, is. Is like a piece that is not going to sit well with everyone, but I know has just been super successful for me, is eliminating alcohol. Alcohol, I feel like, is truly as poisonous as all the other substances that people are so, like, like, so much taboo around, right? Like heroin or, you know, obviously fentanyl is killing a bazillion people. It's the worst thing on the planet, and it's just changed the whole entire landscape. But, like, alcohol is truly poison.

[B]

I love your simplistic thinking around wellness because even doing this show, like, I sit with so many different people and I end up being terrified of everything. Like, I'm terrified of sushi. I'm terrified of. I mean, I had someone tell me to stop eating raspberries and potatoes once. Like, I have heard it all, and it's almost made me go the other direction and just kind of simplify a little bit more. Like, it's amazing to hear from experts, and I love getting new information. But at the end of the day, if you can hit the simple, go outside, eat well 80% of the time, get in enough water, sleep, I feel like you're fine. And then as you mentioned, the added sauna, cold plunge, like, use those when necessary. But I think for people listening, it's motivating to hear that it doesn't have to be so complicated. I want to go back and hear you said you almost died from heroin. Crazy. And you'd never think that looking at you now and hearing about where you're at now, where did the substance abuse start?

[A]

So, I mean, if I take it all the way back, I think that I was predisposed to addiction. And interestingly, I just had a guy on my podcast, a double board certified neurologist and addiction specialist. Which is a rare sort of combination, right? Like most doctors don't like spend a lot of time thinking about addiction. This guy, however, has spent the better part of the last 15 years focused on this very, very specific piece of the brain. And it's a disease. I think it comes through the lipid system. And my dopamine genetically just happens to fire like 10x when substance is introduced or anything really that like would. Would trigger a dopamine response. And so I believe I was kind of predisposed because from as early as I can remember, I was like, if I found something I liked, I'm in. And when I was like three, four years old, I was addicted to apple juice and orange juice, also known as sugar. You know, like, that was like my addiction. I interestingly, like, I didn't have, like, I wasn't like a sweets kid. Like, I wasn't like interested sweets. I actually was like, believe it or not, like, like, I loved healthy food as a young kid, like fruits and vegetables. I didn't really gravitate towards meat even then. I kind of like had this kind of need to escape in things. And it was a really rough household. I grew up in a really small apartment in New York City with a very abusive dad and a loving mom who was also abused and just was kind of like, didn't know like, what to do. So for me, being an escape artist was part of my like, development. And so I would escape at friends houses, I would sleep over as many friends houses as I could. I escaped in sport as a young age. I kind of had like a natural ability to like, step into sport and then get good at it. And so I did that for as long as I could. And then kind of when I was like 12 years old, things really turned a different direction and it got really, really bad at home. I like, wanted to show my father that I had enough. Like, I couldn't deal with his aggression and his, his abuse anymore. And so in front of him, I slit my wrists. And I thought that that was gonna be like the moment where he was gonna be like, oh my God, look what I've done to my son. And like, come and give me a hug. Like, I kind of played that out in my head as I was thinking about doing this. Cause I didn't wanna die. I just really, truly was like, trying to get his attention. And he like, beat me, beat me up. And so then I got Put into a mental institution evaluation, all sorts of unfun things. But shortly thereafter, I found weed, found marijuana. And marijuana was like. I was like, whoa, this is it, this is it. Like, I'm just gonna stay high. I'm not gonna worry about all the other things because I can. This is like the ultimate escape route. And so anybody that says or thinks that marijuana is not like a, like a real gateway drug, they're wrong. I'm just here to tell you that. Right. Like I've got nothing. I don't pass judgment on people that use drugs, smoke weed, drink alcohol. But I will just say, if you ask any addict in recovery, like, where it started, they're gonna tell you it started with marijuana most of the time.

[B]

Because I guess it's an escape, you know.

[A]

Yeah, it's an escape. And it's also socially accepted in many environments. So anyway, so it started there and then it quickly manifested into harder drugs and party drugs. And by the way, like so much fun. I had so much fun. You know, in the beginning it was like, it was, it saved my life because I definitely, even though I probably, I didn't want to die in that moment when I cut my wrist, like, there's no doubt that, that there was severe self hatred. And the drugs really helped me sort of find a different way to think about myself. So for years, five years, it was super fun and you know, but I ended up moving out of my parents house when I was 15. Child Services got involved. They threatened to put me in foster care. I was like, see ya. Like, catch me if you can kind of thing. And I was like, crazy kid. Running the streets of New York City and working in restaurants, working in nightclubs. Somehow, some way I finished high school. But I, you know, I got into that sort of, I got into the dark side of life. And when I was 18, the party drugs like ecstasy and ketamine and crystal meth, even though crystal meth is no longer a party drug, it's like a real hardcore thing now. But in those days it was still sort of like you did it at raves or whatever. It turned into more of a crutch and like it was something that I needed. And that's when alcohol really also became a part. And so the marriage of alcohol and cocaine for me was just sort of like where it ended, like landed as what my drug of choice was. And it just became my life, you know, became my lifestyle. And it was horrible. It was terrible because I couldn't stop, even though I wanted to. But I got into A lot of trouble. Constantly getting into trouble, fights, not showing up, like, staying up for days on end, you know, And a few years of that sort of led me into, like, the pill arena, because I wanted to find a way to, like, not have to stay up and be miserable for days. So I would, like, use pills to come down. And then I was offered heroin one day, and that was, like, the quick, fast spiral to the end. And so I did that for about six months until I overdosed. I was with a girl who was terrified that that had happened. She was afraid to call the ambulance. She. She kind of dragged me into a bathtub, threw me on my back, and, like, turned on the cold water, and the cold water was just hitting me in the face. And I kind of have, like, visions or, like, memories of kind of coming in and out, but I ended up making it through that. And I remember walking west on 13th street from Avenue C where that apartment was saying, like, that's it, dude. You can never do this again. Like, you. You've taken it as far as it can go. Like, you're lucky to be alive. You have to stop. And then four hours later, I was. I was using again. So I couldn't. I didn't have the tools. I didn't have the confidence. I was so committed to the drugs. I just didn't know any other way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that's when I kind of made a decision that this is how I was going to die. And I said to myself, like, let's just make it as fast as we can, you know, like, you don't. I just didn't know that recovery was a possibility for me. There was not enough people around me, even though everybody was tapping me on the shoulder because I was a good person, but I was just. I was caught in the grips of addiction. And it's so hard to explain that to people, because people see addicts and they're just, like, useless. That's, like, the first thought, right? It's just, like, dirty, criminal, useless, like, waste of flesh, basically. When you see an addict deep in addiction, when you walk by somebody on the street, you know, and you see them bugging out, you're like, useless person. Can't. Like, no. No chance. And I'm just here to say that that's a person that's really sick and just truly doesn't have the. The tools to like or the. Or the support to kind of come out of it, right? So anyway, I spent two weeks on a death march, and I blacked out on August 1st of 2004, wanting to kill myself that day, like genuinely, that was like real. I wanted to kill myself for the first time that I can remember, like really being like, okay, man, this is it. Like you should just jump out the window. And. And I didn't. I blacked out and I came to and I slept through work because I always had a legit job because you could work in the restaurant business with an addiction. And then I called my boss, I called my boss and I apologized for sleeping through work and he basically fired me. And you know, he's like, I love you, dude, everybody loves you, but you're dying and like, I'm not gonna pay you to die, so you gotta go. And then I begged, I literally begged him for my job because my job was kind of the only thing really tethering me to like life, right? Everything else in my life was just dark. And this was the only sort of like life I had. And so he said, look, man, if you get sober, you can come to the restaurant in the morning and clean it with the porters at 8am but I can't give you a job in the restaurant. I won't do that. It's just too toxic of an environment for you in your state. And also like, I can't have the liability of someone like you working in the restaurant. And so that was it. I don't know how it was like, you know, there was that piece, that motivation. I kind of think about it like, if I close my eyes and I think about like what really happened. I was so desperate, I really wanted to stop. And I had a guy who I loved and looked up to telling me to get sober. Like, you can, you, you can do it. Like no one had really sort of said it to me, you know, And I don't know if I really wanted to before that moment, but I kind of think about it as like a window just opening up. And for me, this is only for me. Like, some people get a little tripped out by this, but like, like I really do believe God just showed up in my life that day. And like a breeze came through that window. I was able to breathe it in. And I have not had a drink or a drug since that day.

[B]

Wow. I know so many of my friends are focusing on living a more non toxic lifestyle in 2025. I just had breakfast with my girlfriends this morning and they were all talking about what products they want to be using, asking my advice. And one of the products I always recommend is caraway cookware. One of my favorite, favorite non toxic brands to use in the kitchen. It has really helped me find a passion for cooking. The pans are so gorgeous. I actually baked cookies very recently and I used my sage green caraway cookware pan. It looks amazing in the kitchen but I also feel really good knowing that there are no toxic chemicals like PTFes or Teflon that are leaking into my food. Over 70% of fry pans sold in America contain teflon which is insane. 97% of Americans have PFAS toxic chemicals from non stick cookware in their blood which is so so scary. I feel like this is such an easy switch to make in 2025 and a really fun one to get you interested in cooking. Caraway's cookware set is a favorite for a reason. It will save you $150 versus buying the items individually. Plus if you visit Carawayhome.com pursuit you can take an additional 10% off your next purchase. This deal is exclusive for our listeners so visit carawayhome.com/purdue or use code Pursuit at checkout. Caraway Non Toxic Cookware Made Modern. You guys know I love red light therapy. It has been such a huge part of my acne scar healing journey but also just inflammation journey and my personal favorite brand is Bon Charge. Bon Charge's mission is clear to empower individuals to live a more fulfilling life through science backed beauty and wellness products. They have so many amazing products to choose from. My personal favorite is the Red Light Face mask. In just 10 minutes a day it smooths out fine lines, refine skin tone and leaves you feeling radiant with a youthful glow. I love the Red light face mask. It's so easy to throw on when you're cooking a meal, watching tv, playing with the dogs. It's the perfect habit stack and I feel like I'm doing something productive for my skin. I have noticed such a big difference with my acne scars fading, my skin is glowing. Plus I'm 30 years old and I want to focus on fine lines and aging so I really feel like I'm multitasking. Bon Charge Red Light Devices promises a non invasive approach that utilizes specific wavelengths of red and near infrared light to penetrate skin, offering a range of benefits that continue to garner attention from researchers and health professionals alike. Bon Charge ships worldwide and rapid time with easy returns and exchanges and a one year warranty. Go to boncharge.com and use coupon code PURSUIT to save 15% that is B O N C-H-A-R-E.com and use coupon code Pursuit to save 15%. It's pretty amazing to hear that story because I feel like people listening, maybe they are related to someone with an addiction or know someone. And I feel like it must be difficult to have that first conversation and say like, you are sick and we want to help you, but just to hear that, that one guy saying that to you made the world of the difference. It's almost like you just needed to be seen.

[A]

Well, it was really interesting because I do. The stars really did align for me that day because Frank said that. And then I knew one person who I respected who was sober. And it was a, it was a woman named Karen who was like an older sister to me. She worked in this nightclub that I was a bar back at when I was like 16 and her and I just clicked. And she would always just take me in whenever I was down and out. Like if I was strung out and just like I needed to like be somewhere that was not in the street, she would just let me come to her apartment. And I called her because I knew she was sober and she was like, wherever you are, stay. I'm gonna send my boyfriend. And she called her boyfriend Marcus and Marcus showed up. And Marcus changed my whole entire life. He changed my whole life. And I owe so much to that guy. He introduced me to, well, certainly sobriety, but he introduced me to the world of wellness through fitness and nutrition.

[B]

And he's the founder of Juice Press.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so at this point, did you enter a program or was it like a self directed program?

[A]

Program.

[B]

Full program.

[A]

Full program.

[B]

What is that? Just as someone who doesn't know fully, what does that look like?

[A]

So there's obviously multiple different 12 step programs I have to believe on, you know, based on my story alone and many other stories that I know that it is actually kind of like the only way to. Not the only way to get sober, but the only way to stay sober happy. It's like there's people that don't drink and they white knuckle it and they, but, but staying sober with a smile on your face is not easy, you know, but when you walk into something like a 12 step room and there's, you know, sometimes 150 people that like want to hug you and like they know exactly where you're at. Like they, they like finish your sentences, you're like, oh my gosh, I'm not alone. Yeah, I'm not alone. And these people genuinely, they're not paid to be here. They're, they're, they're genuinely here. Voluntarily, to like, help.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The night that I spent with Marcus, that first day, he sat down with me and he just said, I just wanna. He's like, just tell me your story. Like, you know, and at that point no one had really asked me that question. Right, Tell me your story. Like, what is it? And of course, like, I wanted him to think that I had had it like, like the worst life ever, right? Like, I was like, it's probably lying, you know, trying to sound tough, all those things. But he didn't say a word for like four hours. And then when I was done, when I kind of had gotten to date like this as then today, he was like, okay, I'm going to help you. That was it. And he's like, this is what we're going to do. And he had no judgment. He didn't like, I mean he was, he definitely like had. Had made some notes on the story, but he wrote me a plan and it all happened this day. It was nuts. So he basically said, look, I want you to wake up as early in the morning as you can. I don't know what that looks like for you, but like, if you're waking up at 4:00 in the afternoon now, which I'm sure you are, try to wake up earlier than that. And the first thing you're going to do when you get up in the morning is you're going to stand up, you're going to turn around and you're going to make your bed. As soon as you make your bed, you're going to go into the bathroom and you're going to brush your teeth, wash your face, put on your contact lenses, take a piss and get on your knees and ask God for help. I don't care if you believe in God. I don't care if you have a bad experience with God. I don't care if you think somebody's listening or not. But like, you need help, dude, and you don't know how to ask for it. Your version of asking for help has led you to this point. So like we're going to kind of change direction and, and just. So just get on your knees and ask for help. And then right when you're done with that, do as many push ups as you can. When you're done with that, you're going to put on a pair of sneakers, you're going to get out of the house immediately, take a walk. Could be a jog, probably not jogging anytime soon, but get out and walk around, walk for five blocks and then come home. And when you're done with that, I want you to make a big bowl of oatmeal. And you can add whatever the hell you want to it, but you need to start putting positivity into your body nutritionally in the beginning of the day. So you create a nutritional win. And I promise you it's going to make a difference. Right after you do that, I want you to go to this 12 step meeting, get there, it's going to be weird. Introduce yourself, tell them who you are and why you're there. And then right when you're done with that, I'm going to train you how to be a man. And that's going to be in the rings of Muay Thai. And I was like, what the fuck is Muay Thai? I have no idea what you're talking about. But he was just like, come meet me at this gym. And I'm thinking like, as he's saying this, I'm kind of like, gym, push ups, walking. I'm like, yeah, but I'm like, I haven't like, exercised in, in 10 years.

[B]

Are you, like, super skinny at this point?

[A]

I. No, I'm like, I'm like bloated and swollen and just uncomfortable.

[B]

I'm imagining, like, you're not really eating.

[A]

I'm like, probably not eating for two days, drinking an enormous amount of alcohol. And then when I do sort of surface and come up for air. Yeah, most likely I'm eating mozzarella sticks and pizza and big bowl of pasta or something.

[B]

New York diet.

[A]

Yeah. So then he says, you know, you know, we're gonna go, we're gonna train. We're gonna train for two hours every day. And after we train, you're gonna have chicken and broccoli and then you're going to take a nap, you're going to go to work, you're going to have chicken and broccoli again, and you're going to go to bed as early as you can. And right before you go to bed, you're going to drop on your knees, you're going to say, thank you, rinse and repeat. And that's the plan.

[B]

I just said, okay, I've heard you run through this plan on a different podcast. And it really stuck with me because. And obviously in your story, like, you were basically on the brink of death. You needed this rigorous discipline plan. And it honestly reminds me a lot of myself. Before I went on my weight loss journey, I ended up losing £90. But when I was coming, I dropped out of school. I was binge drinking overweight unhealthy. Never had a goal in my life. Like, I wasn't an addict. But I mean, I'm sure people listening, you know, if they're in a dark place, you need instruction, like, you need to have a plan. And I basically gave myself a very similar plan. But I really like the praying aspect, and I wish I'd implemented that sooner. I actually recently started to go to church, and I'm not a very religious person, but I'm. I'm going through IVF right now. And I feel like when you're in this period of life that's unknown, scary, anxiety provoking, whatever it is, being in, first of all, having a higher power or putting trust in something else, saying thank you, it just does something to your brain that I feel like helps you power through whatever you need to.

[A]

The one thing that I have done without fail, over the last 20 years is pray. And the truth is I still don't have any conception of what it is. But I do know that every single morning I get on my knees and I have the same prayer now that I've been probably saying for it's gotta be 15 years. And the brunt of the prayer is praying for other people that I love and some I struggle with. I'm sure people listening to this podcast, like they want to walk away with something, right? People are looking like, is there a silver bullet? Is there a pill? Is there a switch you could flip? Like, is there something? And I'm here to say, no, there's not. However, if you don't try certain things that you hear, the chances of that being the thing for you don't exist, right? And so that's why I talk about prayer a lot, because it's not a religious thing for me. It's. It's an ask for help thing for me because. Because of how consistent I've been with prayer in every other aspect of my life, I am so comfortable with asking for help. Like, I used to be ashamed, especially as an early, early entrepreneur. Like, I used to have like this weird feeling with, like, asking for help because I'm like, man, I'm the entrepreneur. Like, I should be know how to do this stuff. And I just sort of shook that off pretty quickly. Asking for help is like the key, you know, and believe it or not, you know, specifically, when you ask others for help, it empowers them totally. You know what I mean? Like, when the boss or the owner or the whatever asks someone for help, that's not in that position, that totally fires them up. You Know, like, makes them feel, like, needed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and so I really. I feel like the prayer for me was like the first step into, like, giving myself grace and the ability to ask for help.

[B]

I think it's such a good tool for anyone listening who's needing, maybe still forming a routine or they have goals for 20, 25, or they just don't even know where to begin. I feel like that's such a great start. Honestly, I kind of want to implement it now. I don't do that. I've been going to church Sunday mornings and doing it there, but I feel like I could start doing it daily just during this time where I'm kind of, like, mentally fragile. I feel like that's such a fantastic tool.

[A]

Do you know David Guillem?

[B]

No.

[A]

So this guy, David Guillem, he's the co founder of Mary Ruth's Organics.

[B]

Oh, yes, of course I do. What am I talking about? Yeah.

[A]

And he is a Kabbalah dude. Right. And I've gotten to know him well and become friendly with him and built a humongous business. Right. And his whole entire thing is talking to God. His whole entire, like, he has no interest in talking about business with me. All he wants to talk about is the Creator with me, you know, And I gotta look at that. We have to look at that and say, okay, so, like, what is this all about? I don't try to, like, overanalyze or intellectualize it because it's worked so well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I could easily see myself, like, looking for the loophole, you know, and being like, oh, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I just think prayer is so. It's just so powerful, you know, whether the higher power has anything to do with them or not. Like, the opportunities that I've sort of come into over the last 10, 15 years, like, I just got to believe that. That there's something out there looking after me.

[B]

It's also so easy to blast through all the great things in life because there are so many distractions. We're all moving a mile a minute. It's really easy to forget how much we have and how much we've done. It's also interesting you brought up David the one thing or interaction that I've had with him. Greg and I were in a really tough business situation at one point, and he literally came in and helped us so much for no reason. So it's funny, when you. You brought him up, I was like, oh, my gosh.

[A]

Yeah, he's a. He's A. He's a gem of a human being, really. I love that guy.

[B]

Um, pretty amazing.

[A]

It's no surprise that that prayer is a big part of a lot of, you know, extraordinary people's lives. And. And I. And. And anyone listening. Like, I just want to put a. Put a. A highlight on the fact that, like, it doesn't have to be Allah or Jesus or Buddha or the Torah or Kabbalah. Like, it doesn't have to be. It could totally be your own conception of as long as it's not you or. Or another person. Right. Like, if you make someone else. If you pray to your partner, that's a dangerous place to live. Right. So as long as it's not you or someone else, I really do believe that the. The power in it is. Is. Is extraordinary.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that removes the judgment around it. Like, I. I think I had a lot of judgment around it for a while because I thought it had to be something specific. And it's not that for me. Like, when I go to church, I'm just in a big room full of people who all are going through their own thing, and it's like a community, uplifting, meditative thing for me.

[A]

Think what you want about that part of life, but if you're. If you're. If you're having trouble fucking, give it a shot.

[B]

Give it a shot.

[A]

I agree. Give it a shot.

[B]

I agree. I mean, I'm literally, like, a couple weeks into this, and I have never spoken about it on the podcasts, so I'm glad we went there, because people have. I think people are noticing that I'm, like, going, but I haven't addressed it. And I think you summarized it way better than I ever could. Let's pivot to fitness. I think I've heard you say you started running. What role did fitness play at the beginning of your sobriety journey? Like, how did it help you heal?

[A]

Obviously, I've chosen not to use drugs a day at a time. Fitness saves. And had saved my life in that moment when Marcus knew what he was doing. I don't know how, but he just did. And he brought me into the. This Muay Thai academy. And he was like, this is where you're going to spend a lot of time, because you need to be able to redirect the energy that you spent destroying your. Yourself into building yourself. And the beauty of, like, getting into a fitness protocol of some sort, especially when you're struggling in life, is no matter how you slice it, if you commit to it every single day, you get progress. So there's very few things that you can do on a daily basis or four to five days a week where every single time you're done with it, you. Your steps further than when you started in an hour and a half period of time. Hour period of time, right? There's very few people that will get done with a workout and be like, I wish I didn't do that. You know, like, people walk out of a workout of any kind. It could be yoga, it could be walking, it could be running, it could be lifting weights, it could be Muay Thai, it could be anything. And you're done. And you're like, yes. You know, and so what I was taught there is we have the ability to create wins. Nutritional wins. Awesome. You feel good after eating a healthy meal, physically and mentally. You feel good after a training session. Physically and mentally, you have the ability to control that. We can control maybe 5% of our lives, right? Like, whenever there's another person or thing in our world, we've kind of lost control. That person can hate us. We can't control that. That person can say something that's going to impact us. We can't control that. That person can take a swing at you. Something can happen. Like, we have very little control over the things in our lives. However, when it comes to what we put into our body and how we move our body, in most cases, we do have control. And if you can make those things wins now the ability to commit becomes easier, you know, and I like to kind of think about it, and I'm not like this kind of corny acronym guy, but there are these things that I think are important to say because it's been so real in my life. And I call it the three Cs. Commitment is the first C, and probably the hardest of all the Cs. Commitment is, is the gateway to happiness, right? Like, you want something, the only way to get there, to get it, is to do it, period. Like, there's one way to get from want to have and it's to do, right? And that means commitment. And then with enough commitment consistently, you will build confidence. Because commitment really does breed confidence. You know, people will say to me, oh, my God, you like, eat the same thing all the time and you, you do the same things all the time. And I'm like, yeah, but I. And better. Every single time. Like, it just gets better and better and better. I get stronger and stronger, stronger. I feel better internally, you know, like with the. The things that I do. So commitment breed breeds confidence. And I'm. And there's a big difference, I think, between confidence and ego. You know, like, people think, oh, confidence, like, that guy's got a lot of confidence. That girl's got a lot of confidence. Really? There's a difference between confidence and ego. In my opinion. Confidence gives you the ability to make better decisions, right? Because if you don't have confidence, you're always on the fence, right?

[B]

It's coming from self love.

[A]

Coming from self love, right? So like, self confidence is, Is. Is super duper important. And the way you develop self confidence is you make decisions that are ultimately going to impact self. And that's where self love, self care comes in. So commitment, confidence, and then with enough confidence, you know, courage is, Is. Is inevitable. And so the commit confidence, courage, sort of trifecta has really kind of like established this. If I'm not like, I'll check myself and I'll be like, all right, dude. Well, have you, like, are you committed? Like, are you, like, if you say you're going to do something, you got to check yourself and see are you actually doing it? Because if you want this thing and it's not coming easily and let's like, let's backtrack and see where. What step we're missing. You know, the fitness component of my life, like, my body really changed quick, you know, within like the first three months of training with Marcus, I was like a different human, truly.

[B]

You know, And Muay Thai is a form of martial arts, correct? Okay. So you're just getting thrown around, getting.

[A]

The shit kicked out of me, actually. You know, like truly super humbling and I needed that.

[B]

I always want to say this, but I feel like it's too dark sometimes. So I self harmed. All through college, like when I was going through that hard time, I would cut myself. Like I have scars all up my arm, I guess in similar to like overdosing or whatever. I was conflicting pain on myself, regularly throwing up, cutting, whatever it was. And that gave me this kind of feeling of reality because I was so dissociated all the time that it kind of brought me back down to earth. And I felt like when I started lifting weights, it gave me a similar feeling because it's painful in a good way. And it was like giving me that rush that I would get from unhealthy habits. Do you know what I'm saying?

[A]

Totally.

[B]

So I feel like if you're an extreme person that gets a feeling of groundedness or reality from unhealthy habits like self harm, alcohol, whatever, exercising, kind of Replaces it. And I guess when I'm hearing you getting beat up, I'm like, I Wonder if that 100.

[A]

And also, by the way, when I got sober, I totally picked up food.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

Like, I developed a food addiction and an eating disorder in that first year. Intense, like, intense purging, binging, all of it. Like, my. I was grasping for anything I could. And so when the fitness came into the picture for me, it was like, oh, my God, like, yeah, like, I'm like, ready to get the shit kicked out of me. Like, I, you know, like, like you said, right? Like, you get popped in the jaw, you're like, you're there.

[B]

Yeah. You know, it's like, you're not anywhere else.

[A]

You're nowhere else. You're right there. Right there. And. And so, yeah, I think that there is definitely a correlation, for sure. Regardless, like, really gave me purpose, right. And I think that is ultimately what fitness did and has done for me. You know, no matter what's going on in my life, I can rely on fitness as a way to win. And I think humans in general are. We're wired to want to win. We just are. We do want to win. And it's not like, be the best. It's not like, win the race. It's just like a little win, keep your own promise.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

Yeah. It just goes a long way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if you can, over time, begin to stack these little things, you know, like, if I get eight hours of sleep, I'm like, so stoked.

[B]

Yeah. I'm like, major win one.

[A]

I do want to talk about getting up early in the morning because I think it's super important for me anyway. It's been a big part of my journey. I definitely wouldn't want to advise people to, like, get up at 5 o'clock in the morning if they went to bed at 11:30 or 12:00 at night, like, that's not like a healthy way to look at it. I did go to bed last night at 11:30, right. Because I was out with some friends and I said to myself, yo, dude, like, you're not getting up early tomorrow to, like, do all the things you want to do. So, like, give yourself grace, you know what I mean? And before I went to bed, I just said that I'm like, not gonna wake up 5:15. And I slept until 8. And I got like 8 hours and 45 minutes of sleep, which is so rare for me because I'm a husband and a dad and I love waking up early anyway. But I was just like, fuck, yeah, that's a win. Like, a massive win. Like, I got my day started with that. And I really do think the wins that we control, the little ones, are the ones that make the biggest impact. Because typically the big wins you can't do alone. You require other people. Like Bloom. Right. Like the big huge win. Right. Massive win. How many people do you think it was required to create it?

[B]

Hundreds.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, the little wins are the ones that, like, actually get us in a position to have the confidence and courage to do bloom.

[B]

100%. 100. I think that's such a great thing to say here for people listening who maybe want to be an entrepreneur or whatever, have these big goals. If you can show up for yourself, sleep well, eat well, even if work's going badly or something that's out of your control is going badly, you can show up and control those things and make sure they go well.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

I. I love that. I think that's super important and.

[A]

And still feel cheesy or not like a winner when shit's going down, you know, because it's so easy to feel like you've fallen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then just say, I failed. That's it. Like, I'm just going to, like, I'm going to pick myself back up. Like, you know, you think about, like, beginning of the new. Beginning of a new year. Right? Like, people make all these commitments, all these. All these resolutions. And by the way, like, I'm not one of these guys that says, I'll screw New Year's resolutions. I'm like, no, actually make them. Make them. Why not? Like, put something in your path to work towards nine out of 10 people, if they fail once, they just stop. I know for my life, the only one thing, again, that I have to do perfectly is just get back on. Just get back on. Everybody. We're all going to drop the ball. We're all going to drop it.

[B]

That issue I mentioned with Bloom, where David came in and helped us, I thought we were done. That was a couple years ago. Greg and I were like, our business is done. But we kept pushing and now we're here.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

I feel like it's easy probably to look at, you know, successful people like yourself, and people think it's been up, up, up, up, up. But we're all having these moments of failure and choosing to not stop there and choosing to keep going.

[A]

The one thing that I'll say about that, and specifically to any entrepreneur or aspiring entrepreneur, most people quit.

[B]

Or podcaster.

[A]

Or podcaster. Most people Quit. Yeah, that once when it gets hard or they feel like they. They've made a big enough mistake, they quit. And I truly believe that what makes great entrepreneurs, great entrepreneurs is endurance. The longer you stick around, the smaller the pool of people around you that are gunning for the greatness. So, like, just stay in the game, no matter how hard it gets, no matter how scary it is. I had. I just had someone on the podcast recently, and it was so great because she was like a. She's like a. She has a business as well. She's an entrepreneur, and she just has this, like, real sense of levity to her. And she looked at me and she was like, you know, it's a game, right? It's all a game. Everybody takes it so seriously. It's a fucking game.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, just keep playing the game.

[B]

I feel like. I think Hormozi, Alex Hormozi, has a quote. I can't remember all the numbers, but just by staying in it, you're already ahead of 70 of people who gave up.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Say, I think most people, on average, do three podcast episodes, then give up. So by the time you get to six, you're already winning. And if you just keep going, I mean, podcasting can be hard. It's a lot of consistency there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I agree. Just keep going.

[A]

That's it. It's endurance. Right? Like, if. If the one. If I could put one word in your head for this year as an entrepreneur, it's gonna be. It's gonna be a crazy. It's going to be a crazy year, right? Oh, it's going to be nuts.

[B]

Gear up.

[A]

Gear up. But, like, if there's one word to write on a sticky note and put in your, like, inside your medicine cabinet. Endurance.

[B]

100%.

[A]

Just put on your running shoes, like, be there.

[B]

Christmas. Not this past Christmas, but the Christmas before. Greg and I got a phone call Christmas Day that two semi trucks of product got stolen off the highway. Millions of dollars worth of product. It ended up being an FBI case.

[A]

What?

[B]

Christmas Day? Yeah. And we were unfazed. We were like, okay, great.

[A]

So wait a second. So you guys got, like, Mafia hijacked?

[B]

We think that they thought it was something else. They were like, who wants greens powders this bad, right? Like, who really wants this many greens? I think, yes. Crack it. But, yeah, you just get used to a certain level of wow.

[A]

Wow. You like it? Good. Oh, my gosh.

[B]

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[A]

You did?

[B]

Yes. Me and Greg, I brought it up to him today and he was like, oh my God, at what point did you enter restaurants? Entrepreneurship, like, when did that happen?

[A]

So I mean, if I really kind of like bring it back, like I've thought entrepreneurially kind of my whole life, you know, I was walking a massive amount of dogs at like 10, 11 years old. I used to like go into like the baseball card comic book shop and I would buy packs of cards and they had this like grab bag thing and I would do this at like 11 years old. I'd go in and buy like as much as I could. I'd like open up the packs and like pull out the comics and I'd like see what I wanted. And then I would set up shop right down the street from the comic book store. And when people would walk in and out, I'd try to sell them my comics. You know, like, I, I was just kind of always thinking about that for some weird reason. And I got a job in a restaurant when I was 12 and fell in love with the restaurant business. That was part of my escape plan, just being in restaurants. And, and then when I got sober, I, Frank, you know, did eventually just give me my job back. And I had made a decision within like the first six to eight months of sobriety that I was going to open up a restaurant. I was like, this is what I'm going to do in that eight month, you know, I met my now wife eight months into sobriety and like, I don't know what else to say like about her outside of she's like everything in my life. You know, she's just the most incredible, supportive, you know, she knew what she was getting into when dating me. And I was, like, very upfront with her about, like, how crazy I was because I'm still like an energetic dude. But then I was just like, I was out of my mind, you know, it was really. It was like a tough time in my life. But I just sort of said to her, like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna do this. And she was like, do it, you know? And so I asked Frank if I could have a meeting with him because I was. I was 25 and I was gonna tell him how I was gonna do this. And, you know, a year and a half sober. And he was like, I love you. He was kind of like my. I call him my restaurant dad. He's like, I love you, but I just don't think you have it in you, Mike. And he's like, I'm sorry to say that, but, like, I just. I just don't know if you have it in you. And it crushed me, like, just like, stake in the heart, you know? I was hoping that he would say. And I was looking for. I've always looked for father figures, you know, in my life because of how rough it was with my dad. But I was hoping he was going to say something along the lines of, absolutely, I'm going to support you when you're ready, you know? Anyway, as I was leaving the meeting, he was like, but if you really want to do it, you should go to culinary school and get that degree. And that night, I signed up for culinary school. And then for the next two years, I went to culinary school. And then Cornell partnered with my culinary school while I was there to create a restaurant management program. And they had one scholarship available. It was an expensive program, but I applied for the scholarship, I won the scholarship and ended up doing that. And So I was 27 when I graduated. And I just spent like a year just nose to the grindstone trying to figure out how to do this thing. And finally I did, and I wrote a business plan. And I worked at that restaurant, Frank Restaurant in the East Village for eight years. And it was a real regular spot. You know, these guys and gals that would come to the bar and eat dinner with me and drink great wine. They saw me go from like this crazy young 20 year old kid to getting sober to, like, finding my wife and going to school. And I put the business plan in front of 20 of them that I thought would be, like, had the means to, like, potentially invest in something like this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And 14 of them wrote me a check oh.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And that was the beginning of how I. That's how I funded Meatball Shop.

[B]

And you ended up with how many locations in the city?

[A]

We had six locations in the city. And did you have one in Williamsburg?

[B]

Yeah, that's where I went.

[A]

Daniel, my partner. My business partner Meatball Shop and I, childhood best friends, we, like, found this location in the east Lower east side. Like, I knew exactly where I wanted it to be, you know, and I just had this, like, vision of this thing, and we opened it up, and it was insane. It was total mayhem. You know, like, it was. People were waiting four hours to eat meatballs at the meatball shop.

[B]

You know, it was like. I mean, it was a thing. It really stood out. I remember the first time I saw it, it was like it was a missing piece in the New York restaurant world.

[A]

Well, what it did was it really sort of created this. Do one thing really well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, because there was always pizza.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There was always sushi. Ramen, I think, was like, one of the, like, we can't ramen and meatballs kind of came up at the same time, you know, and so, like, Momofuku, like, Dave Chang had opened up a restaurant, like, within that year or so. And so it was just, like, for the. Like, it wasn't like, oh, what's your favorite Italian restaurant? What's your favorite, you know, Japanese spot? Or, you know, Chinese restaurant or whatever. It was like, you know, people were asking, like, where's the best?

[B]

Yeah, totally.

[A]

And I just, like, kind of had a vision for that. And so that's what Meatball Shop did. But, like, in that first year, I mean, we were cooking meatballs live on Jimmy Fallon and Chelsea Handler and Jay Leno and Good Morning America, Today's show. I mean, it was nuts. Every single news broadcast, they made a TV show about us. I mean, it was crazy. You know, Daniel and I, eventually, we ended up not seeing eye to eye on the trajectory of the business. We had a real opportunity to take a serious, serious, serious chunk of cash out of the business with a private equity fund that really wanted Meatball Shop. And I couldn't convince Daniel and the board to want to do the deal, which was devastating, you know, and now Dan will say it very clearly, like, I'm so sorry that I did that, because we would both be in very, very different positions financially. But it is what it is, right? You know, like, you learn as you go. So after. After six restaurants, I knew that, like, because of that. That piece of it that, like, we Couldn't see eye to eye on where to take the business out of market. We knew New York was saturated. I wanted to go more iconic like la, because I just knew the media was there. And we crushed in the media. Yeah, I just said, you know what, I'm going to let them scale it. I'll step back, they'll buy, buy me out. It'll be like an exit, like a real exit for me. And then I'll have more of a, more of a sort of financial support system to go create another business. And so they bought me out. It's a big moment in my life. I still, I still own 9% of Meatball Shop, but they bought the majority of my equity. And then I went and opened up Seymour's, which is a sustainable seafood spot. And I did that without partners. I really wanted to see if I had like the, to go do it. And I did. And you know, we, same, same thing happened, you know, it was, it was gangbusters. And we, you know, we did close to like 5 million bucks out of the first store in year one. And you know, we again, like investors came in and said, hey, like we want to scale the thing. And I was like, I knew at that time in the world of restaurants, like when you're scaling brick and mortar businesses, as you grow, it becomes far less about the hand to hand combat in the restaurants, which is what I love. I love the culture, I love the connection, I love the design and the development of the teams. My job really at Meatball Shop, because I was so much the creative person and so involved in the design of the restaurants, my job really became deals with landlords and managing crews and architects. Right. And that like, I was just like, I was so pulled away from what I genuinely love to do, which is like connect with human beings at scale. So I just knew that I was like, hey, like I could sign up to this for the next three to four years, but I have no interest in having 60 restaurants. Like, that's just not something that I'm stoked about. So I brought in a partner who was very stoked about 60 restaurants plus and we, we built five more restaurants together. And I said in the beginning like, hey, like once we get this thing to like 25 ish million in revenue, if we get there profitably, like I would love to be bought out so that I can go create another business. And he agreed to that. He was actually fired up about that. And so that's exactly what we did. And we opened up, you know, we had six Meatball six, Seymour's. And we had a pop up in Montauk. And then in late 2019, November of 2019, I sold the majority of my equity there. And then the pandemic hit, and it was crazy.

[B]

Oh, good timing. Wow. And then when did you start? So your new business is Creatures of Habit.

[A]

Yeah. So Creatures of Habit was something that I had been sort of, like, kicking around. Obviously, I knew that, like, there was going to be another business. My plan is like, you know, I've got a long Runway ahead of me. I'm 44, but I feel like I'm like, 24, and I feel like I'll probably. I love business, so, like, I'll probably be doing it for the next 40 years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'd love to have, like, a cool portfolio of brands that I've created, but I knew that the next business for me had to align with my passion for wellness. I just, I just, you know, Seymour's was like a step closer than Meatball Shop.

[B]

Yeah. It seems like an evolution almost.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of like your old self kind of aligning your career with who you are now.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You. You spent a lot of time in New York City. It's, it's. It's like, it's hard to get a healthy meal in New York City.

[B]

I agree with you.

[A]

It's hard.

[B]

Every. No one agrees with me. I always say, I lived in park soap for a year, and I was like, I can't live here.

[A]

It's hard to get a healthy meal. Now, there are healthy restaurants, but, you know, typically healthy restaurants in New York look, smell, and feel like healthy restaurants.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So.

[B]

And they think vegans. Sorry. Totally sorry to anyone listening who's vegan. But, like, that's not the only healthy way to eat, you know?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. 100%. You know, you walk into a healthy restaurant in New York and you. You just know you're in a healthy restaurant, you know, and, like, I wanted to create a healthy restaurant. That was dope.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, I want to create a healthy restaurant that, like, I want to go to and hang out at, you know, where, like, I'm going to walk in and I'm going to see people I know. And, you know, people can go on dates there and not feel like they're going to walk out with dreadlocks and, like, patchouli, you know? And so I just, I was like, I'm going to create this healthy restaurant with a vibe. But the difference in this business in terms of trajectory was going to be. I was Going to use the restaurant as an incubator for cpg. Create products within the restaurant, sauces, breads, things like that that we can ultimately package up and, and then do traditional cpg. More. More in the retail arena. I know I never even sniffed cpg. Like, I had no idea what I was talking about or thinking about, but I just like had. I had been able to convince enough people to like believe in this idea that, hey, like, we'll have a, we'll have a real life incubator. Yeah, that is cool, you know, and so I raised money. I found the most insane restaurant, like the coolest restaurant, because I had no interest in scaling the restaurant. So I was like, this is going to be my home base for the next 10 years. Like, it's got to be dope and awesome and in a cool location. And I found this 5,000 square foot single level structure, 20 foot high ceilings, all brick, eight skylights. Like, amazing. Just beautiful spot in Brooklyn. All February I was negotiating the lease and early March, it was like some weird shit going down. Like everybody was talking about this virus. And I'm like, what is this? And told the landlords, I was like, let's pause for a minute. And then by the second or third week of March, it was like the world crashed and burned. And everyone who was in the brick and mortar, mortar business, this is before IRL became a thing, but in the brick and mortar business was terrified. You know, I bought a house about two and a half hours out of New York City in 2012. And my wife and I with our kids, I was like, hey, like, my sons were 2 and 4. They were like, we're going to virtual their school virtual. I'm like, do you start to sit the two year old in front of a computer to think he's in?

[B]

Like, that's insane.

[A]

Like, what do you, what is virtual? Like with a 4 year old? So we just decided to go upstairs, we packed a bag and we're like, all right, let's just go weather the storm. Like, we'll spend, you know, whatever it takes, a couple weeks, couple months for this thing to blow over and then we'll come back and, you know, I'll continue to build. But very quickly we kind of figured out that that was not going to be the case. And so I told all the investors, like, hey, I'm not putting my money into this. I wouldn't expect you to put your money into this. I need to take some time and think about, like, what I'm going to do. And so for the next three months, it was like, deep dive. Like, how do you pivot your whole career? What am I going to do? And I hired a coach, really worked with an amazing woman who. And that's like a plug to anybody who's, like, in indecision. I always say, ask for help. Hire a coach. I have a coach in my life kind of at all times, whether it's a fitness coach, a nutrition coach, a business coach. Like, I really believe in coaching. And so she really helped me to sort of see that I'm. I'm a creative entrepreneur, and I can kind of use any medium to build from. And so she just said, hey, like, you were gonna do cpg, just, like, buck up, draw a line through the restaurant, and create a CPG business called Creatures of Habit. And I was like, yeah, but what am I gonna sell, right? What am I gonna sell? Like, how am I gonna make a dent? And so that's where the real diving went. And I was on a run one day, and it just all kind of came to me. The first nutritional win I put into my body from Marcus's plant is what I've been eating as my first meal of the day up until three months ago, until I started this crazy gut cleanse. I don't eat it every day now, but I will get back to that. But literally, I have. I oatmeal with protein and seeds. Like, it had been my breakfast every single day for 17 years.

[B]

I was curious if there was going to be a through line from the beginning of your story when you said the oatmeal. I was like, oh, is that the reason that.

[A]

That is the reason.

[B]

That's really cool.

[A]

Yeah. So. So. So when Marcus told me to eat oatmeal every single morning, I was just like, okay. And I committed to it. And I kind of. I've fallen in love with oatmeal. I love oatmeal. And the truth of the matter is, is that it's fueled me every single morning for. For almost two decades. And I was like, my gosh, like, I can't believe it's been right here. Like, I make this shit every single day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And if there's ever anything like, you know, you try to think of, like, the business of business is really storytelling. Authenticity is also a huge part of it. There's nothing I feel more connected to and authentic about than what I fuel my body with every single day. Right? Like, I can really speak to that. Right. Like. And so I got home from that run, I said, donna, it's My wife, I know what I'm doing. She's like, what are you doing? I was like, I'm going to sell oatmeal. And she was like, what happened on that run? You know, like, have you lost your mind? And that was it. That night, I, like, I, like, took the money that I was going to invest into Creatures of Habit, which was a sizable chunk of cash, and I just threw it into a bank account. And I began the journey of creating Creatures of Habit because I thought to myself, like, you know, it's a, it's a blend of gluten and glyphosate free oats, 30 grams of protein, plant protein. It's got chia seeds, flax seeds, pumpkin seeds, pink Himalayan salt for electrolytes. And then on the side of my oatmeal that I would make every day, I always had omega 3 fatty acids, a probiotic, digestive enzymes, and vitamin D3. Those are like my non negotiable supplements every day. And I tried to keep it simple, right? I said, if I can get all that into a pouch, not only do I think I have a business that I can sell to people that are looking for an easy, convenient way to get a delicious 30 grams of protein in the morning, but I can actually finally tell my story that, like, change is possible 100%.

[B]

I feel like that is the strongest when I was, you know, researching your brand and researching you. I think, I mean, similar to Bloom, like, having a story is what sets a brand apart. Like, how many oat brands can say that they've been through what you've been through? I think it's so amazing. I also think the fact that you guys use glyphosate free is amazing. Everyone listening to this show at this point probably knows what glyphosate is. But I'm very picky with oatmeal. Like, I have to get the glyphosate free. I only really know one other brand that does glyphosate free. So I think that's incredible. I'm gonna order it. I'm so excited. And 30 grams of protein is substantial.

[A]

It's easy to get protein for lunch. It's easy to get protein at dinner.

[B]

For women, it's really not to get.

[A]

Protein at lunch and dinner.

[B]

I, I think women really struggle getting in enough protein.

[A]

Well, what I'm. What I'm. What I mean by easy to get it at lunch and dinner is like, you have a little bit more time to plan for lunch and dinner in the morning. Typically, people are like, in a rush, right? And, like, cooking in the morning just sucks. Having to make a smoothie in the morning with all the different fruit and all the different ingredients just kind of sucks, right? Like, you want something that's just fast and, you know, with meal one, which is the product from creatures of habit, you make it. It takes you 30 seconds to make before bed, and you put it in the fridge overnight, you pull it out in the morning, and you just eat it. There's no time.

[B]

Women are gonna love it. I really do.

[A]

And it's super tasty. And it's a 350 calorie meal, which is not a lot of calories when you really think about it.

[B]

But a Frappuccino is more than that, guys.

[A]

100%. And it's super satiating. It's just super satiating.

[B]

Can I eat it hot if I want?

[A]

So the way I suggest making it hot is doing it overnight, adding a splash of almond milk in the morning to loosen it up a bit, and then putting it in the microwave. You can do it on the fly, hot, for sure. It's just not nearly as good.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And also, the thing about oats, like, I've got a lot of gut stuff. The beauty of oats, when you soak them is that they really do break down. And they not only do they break down, but they also really absorb the flavor profiles. Because I've spent a lot of time on flavor with this product, but it's just so easy to digest. It's the one meal that I could honestly say never messes with my digestion. It just, like, it goes down easy. It really sits easy, and I never feel gassy or bloated. And, like, I've got real gut stuff. You know?

[B]

What kind of gut stuff?

[A]

The one area that, like, I just never had spent enough time on is my gut. And I have chronic Lyme disease. So the Lyme has really suppressed my immune system. And what I found out is, like, the immune system really, really does reside predominantly in the gut. And so I was having all these gut things. Like, I would eat something. Like, it could be anything. And it was, like, kind of, like, random flares, but, like, I would just. I'd eat anything, and my gut would just go explode. You don't want, like, I'm, like, gassy, and, like, the poop isn't awesome and just, like, not fun. Right. And so I called up my friend, Gabrielle Lyon.

[B]

Oh, she's my doctor.

[A]

Oh, she's the best.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I called up Gabrielle, and I was like, hey, like, I need help. Like, I don't really ask you for help a lot, but, like, please help me with this. And so she immediately sent me, like, all the stool tests, and she's like.

[B]

I have so many sitting in my bathroom right now.

[A]

Yeah, she sent them all, and I did them all. And when it came back, it was not pretty. It was like, you know, it was two parasites. H. Pylori. Candida.

[B]

Yeah, I had H. Pylori.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It gave me cystic acne for 10 years.

[A]

Wow. Yeah, I remember. I've heard you talk about that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When I found out that I had chronic Lyme, 2017 was, like, the worst year of my life. Like, everybody thought I was crazy, including myself, because no one could diagnose me with what I was dealing with. And I was dealing with a lot of symptoms that were hard to see.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For, like, someone that wasn't living in my body, you know, anxiety, swelling of the joints, like, extreme exhaustion, just weird little nodules on my. On my fingers. Just. Just like. Like, it felt like there was, like, a layer of film on my teeth constantly. Just, like, super weird things happening. Anyway, Finally I met Dr. Frank Lippman, and he was like, you've got Lyme disease. We're gonna figure this out. And so he diagnosed me, sent me to get this super, you know, expensive. Like, crazy expensive test. But I took this test, and it was like, boom. Glaring Lyme disease, multiple CO infections, mold toxicity, heavy metal poisoning. Yeah, it was, like, the whole thing. But anyway, I've worked. I've really worked through that a lot, but the gut thing was just, like, a real thing, so. So she wanted to just hammer me with. With antibiotics because she was like, let's just get. Get it done. And because of my experience with Lyme and how. How. How much antibiotics I've had to be on. Yeah, I was just like, I can't do another. I can't. Like, I can't just do another six months of antibiotics. It'll just crush me. So I ended up actually going to this. To this. This other route. And. And it's been all through nutrition and herbal supplements, and I feel amazing. And, like, I haven't taken another stool test, but I have. Like, I just. Like, there's, like, really, really interesting ways to tell that your poop and your gut is better.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

You know, it's so funny, like, when you get into this conversation, talking about the things that some people would recoil, like, it's just real. Pun intended.

[B]

Literally. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. You know, like, it's real. Stuff, Right. Like.

[B]

Yeah, no, I talk about it all the time.

[A]

Yeah. When you're talking about your health, like, pooping is like a, Like a massive, like, thing that. That can dictate whether you know. And your actual poop, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'm on this journey with the. The gut stuff and like, what I'm eating right now, it's like, I could honestly say, I think is probably like the coolest, like, meal plan lifestyle. Like, I. I might just stick to this.

[B]

Are you carnival?

[A]

Three days carnivore.

[B]

I knew it.

[A]

Three days carnivore. Three days carbs, Back and forth.

[B]

When you say three days carbs, is that with me or just straight carbs with meat? Okay.

[A]

But less protein than I'm. That I'm used to eating.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so, like, on the carb days, I have meal one in the morning. I have quinoa and white potatoes as carbs and fruit as carbs, some vegetables. I did a test called the mrt. Have you heard of that test?

[B]

I think so.

[A]

It's an amazing test.

[B]

What is it again?

[A]

It's a food sensitivity test.

[B]

It's like.

[A]

It's like the. It's like the mothership of food sensitivity. I have done that, and it just showed me all of the things that I can eat. And I was so, so happy that oats were on there, that that was a green light for me. I was like, man, if I get this thing back and it's like, cannot eat oats, you know? And like, the most random things showed up as things that, like, I must never eat again in my life. Oh, like romaine lettuce. Can never eat it. Asparagus. Can never eat it. But I think I overate asparagus, probably. And that's why asparagus is like a. It's. It's literally. He was like, the coach that I work with was like, I've actually never seen that before. Like, it's. It's off the chart.

[B]

I think overeating something for a while is a thing because my husband is a bodybuilder and he overeat. I mean, I watched him eat 16 eggs a day for like, six years, and now he can't eat eggs. I think that's a real thing.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

I agree especially with body. But you said you competed a little bit. Like, I feel like bodybuilders always overdo it with one food group.

[A]

Yeah. And especially so when I got into bodybuilding, you know, I like. I mean, as I would imagine you see at this point, like, I Kind of just went deep, you know, I went like, I was like attacking it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And especially as like a natural bodybuilder, like you have, your nutrition is. You have to be so, so dialed in on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I learned so much about nutrition through that process, but it was totally unhealthy for me.

[B]

Yeah. I don't think it's healthy for anyone, to be honest. Yeah.

[A]

If I had to. If I had to recommend like a protocol for anyone that's just like looking to feel better, I would say Carnivore for three days a week and then introduce carbs that your body can handle. Three days, you know, not three days a week, just three days on three. Three days on Carnivore, three days on carbs, three days on Carnivore. And it's just been amazing. It's been amazing.

[B]

You know, I used Carnivore as a tool for my skin and it was pretty helpful. I mean, it's essentially an elimination diet. Um, but yeah, I think it's a great tool.

[A]

I don't think that it's a long term thing if you're just doing Carnivore. Like, I would blow my brains out.

[B]

Yeah, same.

[A]

You know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The beauty of this is that like, you, you suffer through the three days of Carnivore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you get carbs.

[B]

Those are kind of yummy.

[A]

Carnivore.

[B]

Like, I could live on ribeye, you know?

[A]

Oh, every. I've been. I have a, I have a 12 ounce ribeye every night. I'm like, yes. You know, feels good.

[B]

It's pretty amazing hearing the start of your story and you're like, yeah, I would not eat for two days and I'd have mozzarella sticks and pizza and then I'd not eat again. And now you're like super dialed into things you're allergic to and heavy metals. It's kind of a crazy contrast and really inspiring and really, really cool. And I think everyone listening will have so much to take away from this conversation. And you're very well spoken and I'm really excited about your brand.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[B]

I really. I'm gonna order a bunch of it when I get home because I think it's gonna be perfect for me.

[A]

I really appreciate it.

[B]

You should also meet my husband because you guys are quite similar. He's a very extreme person. He's obsessed with business. Cannot imagine him doing anything. I mean, he's been fired from like every job he ever had. He's wild. So I really want you Guys to meet.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

Can you just answer the question that I ask every guest before we leave? What does wellness mean to you?

[A]

This is going to sound cliche. I find the most joy in my life when I feel. Well, right. Like wellness is an extension or an adjective for. Well, like wellness describes something. Right. And so for me, wellness and happiness are kind of one and the same. When I think about happiness and I think about the times in my life when I was not happy and not well, there was no balance. It was either I was super extreme in one direction and couldn't see anything else. And that's happened in sobriety for me too, in business. Right. Like there's times where I'm just like all business and other things suffer and I'm not happy and I don't feel well. So I think really now for me, when I think about wellness and what the meaning of wellness is, I would have to say it's about balance. And for me, balance is knowing that I can't do everything I want to do in a day. So setting boundaries in my life to be able to have the things that bring me the most joy present on a day to day basis. Because I wake up super early in the morning to be able to get my self love, self care stuff into my day so that I don't impact my family time. So I get up at 5 to be able to do it from 5 to 7 and then from 7 to 7 to 9 or 7 to 8:30, it's like family. And then from 8:30 to 5:30 it's business. And then I shut the computer off at 5:30. I just do like, I used to feel guilt around that. Oh my God, I'm the owner of the company. Like I'm gonna be. Other people are working. No, man. If you can't get it done in the eight hours that you have to to get it done, either A, you've surrounded yourself with the wrong people or B, you've set this, you set the standard to an unrealistic place because realistically, and you know this, you could work 24 hours a day, seven days a week and still have to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So for me it's really, you know, I shut the computer and then from 6:00 until bedtime, it's, it's family. And like that balance for me genuinely makes me feel well. It just makes me feel well. And so like if I had to describe wellness, it is truly boundaries and balance.

[B]

I love it. Great answer. Can you. No, seriously, great answer. And I'm taking away from this conversation. I'm going to start praying morning and night. I really am. I absolutely love that tip.

[A]

Awesome.

[B]

Can you tell everyone where they can find you online? Listen to the podcasts, get the oatmeal, everything.

[A]

So I'm just at Michael Chernow everywhere and Creatures of Habit is my company. It's Creatures with a K. So you can check out at Creatures of Habit anywhere on social or online. Our website is creatureshabit.com what about the podcast? Oh, Creatures have a podcast.

[B]

Oh, I love that.

[A]

Yeah, Creatures have a Podcast. It's, you know, we. I really. The podcast is. Is about focusing on habits, rituals and routines of people that have inspired me. So it's kind of shorter, form 40 minutes or so where I really just get to connect with people and ask them what the hell they do to stay in the game.

[B]

Fantastic. Thank you so much.

[A]

Thanks for having me.

[B]

Thank you for joining us on the Pursuit of Wellness podcast to support this show. Please rate, rate and review and share with your loved ones. If you want to be reminded of new episodes, click the subscribe button on your preferred podcast or video player. You can sign up for my newsletter to receive my [e-mail] it will be linked in the show Notes this podcast is a Pursuit Network production brought to you by Michaela Phillips, Joel Contartese, Daviel Waldner, Jen Lauren and Mackenzie Meisel. You can can also watch the full video of each episode on our YouTube channel at Pursuit of Wellness podcast. Love you po girls and po boys. I will see you next time. The content of this show is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for individual medical and mental health advice and does not constitute a provider patient relationship. As always, talk to your doctor or health team.