← Raising Good Humans
Raising Good Humans
Are Stay-at-Home Moms Giving Up? Are Working Moms Selfish? Let’s Talk w/ Neha Ruch
00:39:06
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- [00:01]
A
The following podcast is a Dear Media Production welcome to Raising good humans. I'm Dr. Aliza Pressman and today's episode is with my friend Neha Roosh and she wrote a book called the Power Pause how to Plan a Career Break After Kids and and Come Back Stronger Than Ever. Neha founded Motherhood Untitled, which is an awesome community that really just is game changing. It's a way for a new generation of moms to think about career shifts and family life as one part of a long and thriving journey. I adore her and I think this was a great conversation. If you are in that space of trying to figure out your purpose when you know you've got kids or you're about to have kids or you've had kids for a long time and motherhood is so enormous, taking time to experience it is so important. It's also important to decide what you want for you instead of these wars of stay at home mom versus Working moms. We're all in this together, whatever you choose. I think that this conversation is really about helping us support each other in the choices that we make in this world of career shifts and changes and workload and home life. Have a listen. And of course, as always, please write a review in the Apple podcasts and give a five star rating and just say what kind of episodes you like to listen to. Just say your favorite, say the topics you like. Let me know what you want to see more of. All good positive energy. I like to hear it. It helps with the algorithm, it puts it more out there. So I really appreciate it. And of course coming up is my paperback version of my book. If you have the hardcover but you want one that you could just take on the go or you just were waiting for the soft cover or you don't know that I wrote a book. I did. It's called the five Principles of Parenting. Your Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans. It's a New York Times bestseller. Thanks to all of you and it is helpful whether you have tots or teens because I didn't want to speak to one age, but I do give examples developmentally. Whether you have infants, toddlers, preschoolers, school age or teenagers. I give examples of how to translate the research that I'm talking about with each age so you get everything under one roof. And as always you can DM me on Instagram aising Good humanspodcast and submit questions. I answer them on substack. As well as the podcast I have a free substack doctoralizapressman substack.com I usually give you the takeaways from the episode in case you're just looking for kind of those quick nuggets and also listener questions. And I do have a subscription version where for $4 and 99 cents a month, we have a live zoom where we just do monthly Q and A's together. You have done such a power move, and I want you to talk about it and why you're. You're sort of here at this time, naming what mothers have been struggling with for so long and why this is important right now.
- [03:47]
B
You know this. We have so many choices, and we've been taught not to trust our own intuition about what's right for our family. And right now, parenting is hard, and there's not a ton of support for it. And we need more choices that are valid, that are supported, that are respected on the other side. And the goal of the power pause as a book and as a movement, is to validate the option that I wanted, which was to step into a chapter of, you know, some people call it a state stay at home motherhood, but this idea of a career downshift for a season to make room for family life and see that as empowering and enriching so that we're not counted out on the other side.
- [04:30]
A
And so what did it feel like when you wanted to take a pause? Because. Because I think there is that tension when we have kids where everybody has of has to validate the choice they've made by knocking other people's choices. It happens with breastfeeding and versus formula. It happens with staying at home versus going into an office. It happens in so many different ways about what schools you're going to like every choice somehow, how many children you have. Like, somehow if you're. If someone else is making a different choice and feels good about it, then maybe, maybe there's something wrong with your choice. I don't know what it is, but I felt like there was a constant separation between the type of mother you are. And so I want to hear about kind of how that went for you.
- [05:24]
B
I think that is the root of the mommy wars, right? If you peel back the layers on it, the history is that more often than not, women were always sort of working alongside family life. Everyone sort of existed in this gray area of helping and supporting the family while also managing the home. And then, you know, we looked at the Second World War where women were stepping into roles that were vacated, and suddenly we had the ability and capacity to work. And so, you know, second wave feminism, we really wanted to advocate for that. But what we did was then we cast undue shame on anyone who chose or needed to be at home for a period as defending tradition. Right. And then over the course of the 80s, we started to see media glom onto that because media loves a cat fight as the mummy wars that was dubbed by the media. And as that accelerated, what we started to do was it was positioned as being better for the kids, as like, I'm gonna stay home because it creates secure attachment for my children. And then women working outside of the home would say, I'm going to work outside of the home because it models ambition for my children. And all that did was it made the choice about the kids when what we know, and you can speak to this better than I can, is that every research, you know, the most recent that I've read is with Stuart Friedman from Harvard Business Review saying there is nothing proving that there are different outcomes for children. Right. Whether their parents were in or out of the home.
- [07:04]
A
All the has nothing to do with it. Correct.
- [07:08]
B
So really the choice, if it is indeed a choice, right. One in three women feel they have to be at home because of the cost of childcare. But if it is a choice, then let's make it about ourselves. Let's just own that for right now and say, like, I get to be at home for right now. We'll see what comes next. And as soon as we make it about us because we want to reset with our professional life or, you know, it just makes the life, home life feel a little calmer, we just want this, it stops being about what's better for them and it starts being about how we're all making the right choice for ourselves and our family.
- [07:44]
A
So for you, what were the tropes that you heard the most?
- [07:50]
B
When I initially downshifted, I had Bode in 2016. So it was the height of the lean in movement. And so I started hearing and mind you, I just graduated, you know, a couple of years prior from Stanford from business school. And so the expectations on my career were high. On paper, I had my dream job. And so I started hearing from everyone from my mother in law to my, even my husband. And it was not malicious, it was true concern. Are you going to be bored? And do you feel like you're giving up? And then from, you know, up here, do you feel like you took a spot at business school? And all of that just made me feel like, first of all, I earned that spot. Second of all, none of that disappears. And what if this is actually what I've been looking for for a little while, what if this is just a reset and a reexamination? And I really did feel that I did not feel like my career was ending. And part of that was, you know, I think certain people are wired to be risk takers. And, and I think that I am one. And I do believe that I was looking at this child feeling like I was learning again for the first time in a long time. And I did make that choice, not because I thought it was better for him, but really because I felt like I want this sense of belonging and peace. I've been looking for it for a long time. It works for our family. And I was just hearing from all these incredible women that I was meeting who were making similar choices that they were hearing the same thing.
- [09:15]
A
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- [13:27]
B
Yes. And it can also be an identity you're proud of. And that's what I'm hearing that like, yes, it's a boundary of I have a lot of different priorities right now. And I think working mother was and it remains something to be proud of. Right. And the, the sort of sad reality is that stay at home mom is such an antiquated phrase and there's so many flaws. Right. Just in the sociolinguistics around It. Right.
- [13:56]
A
Yeah.
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B
Ben Zimmer said, you know, he's a sociolinguistic professor. He basically said working is an active verb. Stay at imply stagnancy. So we're immediately suggesting that one is doing less than other. And so I don't think there's necessarily a flaw in working mother, besides the fact that the reality today is that so many of us. I mean, you and I were talking about this before. So many of us exist in between, right? We're doing our work in flexible capacity. We're seeing a boom of entrepreneurship. We're seeing a boom of freelancing work and consulting work. And we're seeing women try and work in the fringe hours. And I think when we start to embrace that gray area going back to the mommy wars, we can sort of loosen our grip a little bit and say, stay at home working. Like, we're all sort of existing in between and ever shifting. And we're dialing up and we're dialing down to make room for more priorities. And we all are ambitious. And that was really the thing I took the most. You know, the. I think the thing I struggled with the most was this idea that I was giving up on my ambition. And the reality is, if you look at the definition of ambition, it's the determination to do things you care about. That's it. And so if we're doing many things we care about over the long game of life, of course we're going to shift. It's just, you know, giving ourselves permission to shift around those priorities over. Over time.
- [15:21]
A
What I think is so cool when you were describing, like, I'm learning for the first time in so long, is that the mom brain myth of that we become somehow, like everybody says, like, oh, sorry, mom brain. But the mom brain is the third biggest growth of our brain in our whole developmental trajectory. So, you know, it's like early childhood, adolescence, and then the transition to parenthood. And so if your brain is at. It's like, at the adult level, the most, it's growing at the onset of this transition. And then part of that is, like, because of the priority, the priorities you have, you're going to see, like, your. Where your car keys are is not relevant when you're trying to keep a human alive and learn something about how to do so. But also, like, what for most people, I don't know how your experience was, but mine was a little different because I was in graduate school before I had kids about child development. But I didn't grow up. I might have known intellectually because of my work and spiritual school what was going on with this developing human. But I never was like the person who hung out with babies I didn't know. Like, it was utterly fascinating to me, but also exhausting. And when I made the decision to be, to work, but I did it in a very like flexible way, much of that was because I was like, I'm dead. Like I. And I've heard this because it's right after winter break, it's hard to be home with kids, particularly when they're young. It's really exhausting physically and emotionally. And sometimes for different personalities, you want somewhere to go or something to do that's not that because it's easier. But I think all of it is so interesting. Just thinking about like that is also this time of so, so much learning and growth. I don't know how we misunderstood that as like a time of staying anywhere or your brain being out of it. It's like the, the most motivated we are to grow and change.
- [17:36]
B
Exactly. We, you know what, we've dumbed it down. And part of this is, you know, all of the sort of rhetoric and tropes around June Cleaver. I mean, if you poll the American public, we ran a survey about this nationwide whole American public on who they think of with a stay at home mother, they will still say June Cleaver. Wow, that is residual from the 1970s, right. And believe it to be verse, obviously started in the late 50s. And so that image is what we think of when we think of. And by the way, in contrast, if you ask about a working mother going back to sort of the identity of that, the most common response is Michelle Obama. And so there's just this power chasm when in reality, and you just said this yourself, you're working flexibly and you know, when more of us are existing in that gray area, you know, that fluid identity I think is so expansive. But going back to the growth aspect, when it's dumbed down to diapers and laundry and aprons, then we miss all of the immense caregiving work, but also the managing of a household, curating a social network to support your family, figuring out what curriculums and extra classes suit your child's needs, there's so much research and advocacy and community building that happens to really nurture a family today. And that's sort of even beyond just sort of the sheer brain expansion that happens. That's really the work that gets missed. And I think that's part of the fascinating work that I get to do is talk to women across this country about what their days include. And some of my most fascinating conversations are with the women who have kids with special needs and sit on the phone with insurance providers advocating for their child or writing a guide for the school nurse on how to take care of these kids. And that's sort of that hidden, awe inspiring work of motherhood that just gets missed in the memes.
- [19:34]
A
You said that so casually, but I just want to. I just love that. The hidden, awe inspiring work of motherhood. Now a quick word for my sponsors. Do you remember how you learned about money? Did people talk about money in your house? Was it clear how much things cost? I can remember figuring out that I really, really wanted what became a Cabbage Patch dollar and how much I would have to do to get that Cabbage Patch doll. And now it's really interesting thinking about how our kids learn about money because so much of what they get is just paid for by clicking Apple Pay, so it's really hard to even know where to start. So that is where I think Acorns early comes in. Because Acorns early is is a very cool way to teach kids about allowance and spending their money and saving their money. Acorns early is the smart money app and debit card for kids that help kids learn the value of money. Parents can use the Acorns early app to track their kids chores and pay allowance automatically. You know how I feel about separating those two things, but both need to get done. Kids can set savings goals, take interactive learning courses about all things related to money, and they can spend what they've earned with their very own debit card. Plus, parents can keep track of where and when their kids are spending. So if you're ready to help kids learn the value of money, just head to acornserly.com humans or download the Acorns early app to get started. Sign up now and your first month is on Acorns TNCs apply monthly subscription fee starting from $5 a month unless it's canceled. So I want to tell you about Ollie. Ollie has really good gummy vitamins that are just perfect for giving you the support that you need in the areas that you want them. I personally love the sleep gummies. They're called Sweet Dreams and they have melatonin which helps you fall asleep and stay stay asleep and L theanine with and botanical extracts that calm your mind for a restful night. They've also got so many different kinds. Gut health Gummies, Women's health gummies. You could tell a theme here for what I'm interested in, but they have whatever you're interested in. I just happen to really be into my women's health gummies because I have so many essential vitamins that I need to take in and there's just no way to get it all in my diet and gut health gummies because probiotics is so good for you. And then of course, it's just so nice before bed. So let's do wellness on your terms, whatever that looks and feels like for you. You can find Ollie at Walmart or Target near you or@o l-y.com that's O-L-Ly.com these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration and this product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. Tell me what we can do. Like what do we need to do culturally to make a shift for this to be a movement?
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B
We need to get curious about each other's choices. Right? Meaning if someone said someone, and this is the saddest part is at pickup at school or drop off, if someone looks at a mother who's wearing leggings, they get nervous to even ask what they do. And what do you do? Is universal conversation starter. But by not asking, we're leaving her out. And so you know what, how can we change those simple interactions to give room for women to be able to engage with each other, trade resources, connect. Could we say what are you up to for the rest of the day? How are you balancing it all? It doesn't. It's not just one type of parent who is balancing at all. We're all balancing it all. It's just a different all. And I think it's starting to include all women in the dialogue. Asking questions about what did you do previously? Is this new for you? Getting. There's been these false divides between women and sadly I wish it could. You know, I hope that we can include men in this dialogue. I think one in five stay at home parents right now are dads. So I do see it shifting. But being able to engage women in the workforce and work and family dialogue, even if they are on a career pause is where we start because then we allow them to talk about, oh, I'm actually working on an interior design project or I'm advising my friend on her business right now because more often than not these women are keeping their hand in the game. They are exploring. That's some of the most interesting work is that not only is this a time to grow and set up your day to day to Thrive and move yourself forward. But there are ways in which these women are still growing and we need to start to take that into account so we can then welcome them back into the workforce with more, more respect.
- [24:47]
A
I was just having this memory because it's so true. I probably get uncomfortable if I see somebody. Well, I live in LA and we're all in leggings and yeah, different. It doesn't matter if you're. I mean, for the most part it's a, It's a pretty casual town, so you don't see as much of a distinction and can. Can't tell as much about what's going on with somebody. But in general, that question of, like, what do you do? And like, what other things you can say to engage in conversation and get curious is so important. I was remembering after I had my second daughter, we moved to California and I went to a holiday party with my then husband and I felt, and I had already. I was a PhD, I had had a career, but I was taking a break because we were moving across the country and I really wanted time to help my kids settle in and to figure out what all that. And I noticed so many people were like dismissive in that at that moment as soon as they found out that I was at home with the kids. But it never really. I never thought about it until now and looking, reading your book and thinking about all of this, that I was like a little bit. I felt like an outsider. I don't belong with adults having conversations because they're not interested. As soon as I'm like, I'm home with my children, saying that somehow sounded like I have nothing interesting to say.
- [26:32]
B
Right. And that is such a shared experience for women. I mean, I tackle it in the first chapter is how do you answer? What do you do? Because those words have come to stand in for who are you? And I remember, yes. You know, I used to say, and it was so quick, I would say, I run brand at a tech startup. In just a few words, I said, I run. So I'm in a leadership position brand. So I, you know, I'm creative and a tech startup, so I'm kind of like ahead of the curve. And then you have to say, I'm at home with the kids. And that doesn't convey all of those other dimensions. Right. And so I talk a lot about how can we frame that as right now I get to be with my kids or I'm working on settling my kids into a new school or a new town. We'll see what comes Next because then we have this more expansive. It's right now because none of this, you know, I have been at home, I have been consulting part time out of the home. I am working full time out of the home. I've done each of these in different permutations and I shift over and over again based on the season I'm in with my kids and, you know, what's coming up and what's the priority in sort of my professional life right now is such a powerful phrase and I apply it to my kids now in parenting too, because it's so relieving when you feel like you're not making a decision forever. You're also conveying that in conversation that this is a chapter I get to what a privilege it is to get to be with your kids. Right. Or if it's not a choice, I am. And then, you know, I'm working on a project alongside. We'll see what comes next. And I think, you know, just stepping away from the titles is actually such a gift if you allow it yourself to move through the discomfort because you then get to discover an identity that belongs to you. And I think that's the work of the Powerpies is discovering sort of all those other parts of who you are that didn't so neatly fit into, into that corporate work or title.
- [28:28]
A
Now, a quick word from my sponsors. I definitely watched my skin change over the last few years. I used to prioritize blemishes, and now I definitely am prioritizing getting moisturized skin and feeling really good about it. And so feeling confident in your skin does start with having good skin through expert care. It's. It's so hard to get expert care and take the time for it. But what I'm excited about is my partner, Apostrophe, because whether it is for blemishes or signs of maturing or dark spots or anything, Apostrophe helps you get access to the right treatments for your skin. Apostrophe is an online platform that connects you with an expert in dermatology to get your customized treatment for your unique skin skin. And you can access oral and topical medications that use clinically proven ingredients to help clear blemishes, give a little plumpiness to your skin. And you just fill out the online consults and talk about your skin goals and medical history and then snap a few selfies and a dermatology provider creates a customized treatment plan for you. For me, I needed to really focus on kind of getting rid of that sense of dullness and creepiness but now I have a solution and a plan. So we have a special deal for our audience. Get your first visit for only $5 at apostrophe.com humans when you use the Code Humans. So that's a savings of $15. This code is only available to our listeners. To get started, just go to apostrophe.com humans and click get started and then use our code Humans at signup and you'll get your first Visit for only $5. Thank you apostrophe for sponsoring this episode. Episode and so how did you come to discover what like what changed between what you did before and then when you had your kids and you're like, I'm going to get curious, I'm going to figure out what and, and I get to do this right now. Which I love how you shift a little bit of the language because that really shifts how we think about things. But what, you know, what did you discover about yourself?
- [30:39]
B
You know, the fourth chapter in the book really is about goal setting. After you get through the preparing and the budgeting and the resigning and you know, knowing your career's not a dead end when you're actually stepping into it. It took me probably a full year to realize that in moving away from a world where like people hand you a promotion or a salary bump and those are your success. But that's how you know you're doing a good job in parenting. It's very. No one, no one is doing that. Right. Right. And if you're measuring your success by your kids behavior, that is a sure fire way. Especially with a three and a half year old and a one year old back then. Right. It's just a, it's just a disaster. And so you know, to separate your success and go through the process of set defining goals to dignify the stage in your life became the work that was the deepest for me. I knew I had to separate my sense of worth and success from my kids. I knew it was no longer my title and salary. And so that section of the book starts with how can we come up with what our professional goals are for this chapter? Because you can have professional goals. Maybe they're creative exploration goals, personal goals and family goals. Right. And they can be small. For me it was professionally. I had always wanted to explore content. I thought I was going to be a journalist. I ended up in advertising instead. So this became how can I write three blog posts a week for personal. I knew I wanted to finally dig into reactivity. That was something I've struggled with my whole life that wasn't challenged in the workforce because nothing triggers you in the workforce like a three year old does, right? And so, you know, it became can I listen to meditation every morning on Insight Timer or can I read one book about mental health? And for family goals, it was small at first. It was can I, can I have a silly household? And it was can I have a dance party every single Monday? And even if it was small, it helped me in moving forward and then I could set up my day to day around that and I could really optimize if I knew the person I wanted to be. It helped me figure out, well, maybe I do have permission to get a babysitter a little bit to give myself that room for creative exploration. So, you know, getting yourself to a place where you can make the stage also about you growing up next to them unlocks a lot of possibility.
- [33:02]
A
I, I, you know, I wish I had had those guide posts when I was going through this so many years ago because it is a different thing, it's a different conversation when it's about this is what I'm doing right now and this isn't what I'm always going to be doing, not because I'm miserable, but because this is what I'm doing right now. And so it leaves so much room for questions to ask yourself and small goals to make for yourself and the unfolding of kind of like finding out what you're really good at or really interested in a different kind of way. But also I wonder for partners how much of an identity shift, like how much of this should be about or is about the identity that you had priority? Because when you say like what do you do? And we actually translate it somehow as to who are you, does that stand to reason that your partner held you in a different kind of light if that's what you were and now you're other. And we go through this anyway in general when we have kids. But what part of this journey do you include your partner in? And, and how in the beginning, you.
- [34:16]
B
Know, because you're not blindly, even if this isn't, if, even if this is a financial no brainer for your family, which it isn't for the most part for many families, being able to sit down at the beginning, ideally six months before you're making any decision, you can even be doing this beforehand. But you know, you want to give yourself a little bit of time to plan for how is this going to feel for us from a financial perspective, from a family dynamic perspective, but you want to be Making the decision together so that that partner who's working outside of the home knows that you are still contributing value. You want to make sure that you're entering this next chapter very clear that you're a joint household organization, meaning that you're both contributing, you're both depending on each other. My husband was working outside. I remember when he first messed up and called it a luxury for me to stay at home. And I said, like, you can call it many things, but there's nothing about my day that's luxurious. It is a privilege and there is a distinction. It is a privilege that we got to choose. There's a privilege that parents have to be able to work outside of the home. There's a privilege to get to choose to be at home full time. The privilege is to get to choose. And so, you know, there was education that had to happen between the both of us. But the one thing we did really well was we both took a seat at the table in budgeting for the decision. We both ran, recognized the map, and not just the economic map, but the sort of time map that he was able to single task in running a tech startup at the time. Because I was doing so much of the work at home and not just sort of the day to day, but the intellectual labor, the emotional labor of it, the research, the planning. And so having that in place, then when you skip forward in this arc of this journey and, and you start saying, well, I need more support. You're both invested partners in this joint household organization, so you know your day, work day ends when the other person comes home. So how can you share the responsibilities? You can have that conversation more easily. How can you both invest in a babysitter or some other childcare option? Because you both deserve to be whole and healthy. And I think that that very early conversation sort of lays the bedrock for you to be able to then navigate the shifts. And I would say if you are in a relationship that does not feel safe, and I call this out in chapter two, if you are in a relationship where you don't feel like you're going to be respected and valued and you don't feel like you'll have access to the finances in the same way, this might not be the time to take a risk in, in pausing. And maybe you want to downshift because you need or want to because of your child's special needs, maybe there's another way to stay connected to income. But there are scenarios where this is not obviously a safe choice. But we are seeing parents getting married later. And so they do have more equitable relationships and they do have more of this language to be able to navigate it.
- [37:14]
A
This is such an important conversation, but also it's such an important book. It's such an important movement because it's one thing to want to do this and want to make these changes, but it's also a whole other thing to do it and to feel like there's this sisterhood of support and guidance on, like, how this can be done, as opposed to just sort of being like, good luck and Godspeed is so wonderful. So like anybody who knows, anyone who's got kids thinking about having babies, having babies, this is so important. But I also love that it doesn't. You could do this at any point in. In this parenting journey, which I think is just important for us to know because everything is overwhelming when it's forever. But it feels so relieving, like you said, to know this is right now. And so I. I just. I appreciate that you did this for us all 9.
- [38:19]
B
I appreciate everything you do and all your support. I'm learning from you and, you know, how much growth there is and how long of a game it is. And all we want is, oh, it's so long. All we want is to be able to shift with a little bit more ease and a little bit more support and a lot more confidence.
- [38:38]
A
Thank you.
- [38:56]
B
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