← Raising Good Humans
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- [00:01]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Welcome to Raising Good humans podcast. I'm Dr. Eliza Pressman, and today's episode is so helpful for anybody who's sending their kiddos off to college. I mean, if you follow me on Instagram, I have been one of those people that is posting little memes in my stories that keep catching my eye because I'm just like, oh, my God, I cannot believe that my little tiny infant is 18 and going off to college next week. So I certainly was excited to have this conversation with Professor Chris Willard. He's a Harvard professor who actually co authored a book called College Mental Health 101 with another former guest of mine, Dr. Blaze Aguirre and Chelsea Green. So they have assembled every question you could possibly have. What I also liked about our conversation is that we're talking about setting our kids up for a easier transition, not just for college, but also into high school. Because I know that's happening for a lot of you and for those of you with toddlers or infants or young school age children, I know this feels far away, but it does go by fast. And I think there are always tools that can help us as parents and just really good information for those of you who know anybody, I mean, and also just a shout out to the people that you do know who are sending their kids off to college. Turns out now that I'm going through it myself, this is not easy. I mean, I'm gonna be a shell of my former self in one week when I drop my daughter Penelope off. I'll be fine. I'm just kidding. But I do feel like, oh, I thought I would have a total handle on this. I'm so proud that she's launched and, you know, going off and she's so excited and I'm so excited for her. And also, it literally feels like my swaddled infant is going off to college. And I'm just like, bye, good luck and Godspeed. Needless to say, I'm so glad you're all here for this and I hope this episode is helpful for you because I think what Dr. Willard has done is really made this transition a little bit easier. I would even recommend getting this book for your teenagers. Oh, wait, they're not teenagers. They're emerging adults. But getting it for them if they're going off to college, because what can happen is you had a great time in high school. You didn't struggle with mental health. You feel pretty excited about college, and then all of a sudden you get to college and things are more challenging than they've been before. I really want everybody to know what to do if those challenges occur. And again, as always, I think we're pretty clear here that going through hard things does not mean that there's something wrong. That's a totally normal developmental stage. These are important things for us to experience. But it also is important to know when things are going too far, when it's too hard, when there is support that's needed and we always can give support. So I want all of that information out there for you to have and for you to access. And also, I'm just so glad you're here with me because clearly I need it. I want to take a little bit of a different spin than maybe when somebody's reading the book is, I think for those of us who are sending our kids off to college and like having an idea of the tools to send them with. But I also want to think about parents who are sort of setting the stage for having their kids experience any of their first autonomy, fully autonomous moments.
- [04:06]
Professor Chris Willard
Yeah, yeah, right.
- [04:08]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
A lot more than usual. I think setting them up for success and recognizing if they need extra support is kind of helpful. And I also wanted to talk about the kids who we already know are maybe a little bit more vulnerable going out and whose parents are feeling a little bit anxious like they've been managing a lot of their mental health concerns. And also for the ones who are like, things seem great. I still know that we can set the stage for a time that those transition times, that can be challenging. So now I'm going to be quiet and let you just go. Can you tell us kind of where you are coming from when it comes to thinking about the mental health of this transition to college and transition to adulthood?
- [04:54]
Professor Chris Willard
Yeah, absolutely. I was just off doing a workshop like before we got on, but people were asking, you know, why are young people having such a hard time? And I think there's so many different reasons behind this, but we know that objectively they are. They are leaving college at higher rates than they used to. We are seeing more issues related to mental health than we ever used to. Kids are in more distress. And all this is happening, I think for a number of different reasons coming together. The kids that are getting to college now, we're still part of that pandemic bubble. We all want to forget about the pandemic. I know. But it is still really impacting these young people. Their ability to self regulate, their ability to figure out, how do I reach out and ask for help. The isolation that they went through this is the social media generation, which I feel like social media has done this incredible thing recently of destigmatizing mental health. Like I was in Egypt, Hong Kong, like, you know, places where I had a lot of stereotypes going in and high school kids are coming up to me saying I have depression, I have anxiety. And I was like, I can't believe you're talking about this. So it's amazing that social media has destigmatized mental health, but it's also created this really strange, massive amount of misinformation about mental health, how to treat mental health is wrong. You know, a lot of misinformation there and a lot of this kind of self diagnosis thing that I think a lot of us are seeing or wondering about our own kids or what's going on. Are they depressed? Are they just sad? Which one is it? And then it's the age genetically that kids and young people are going to start to experience their first mental health issues and the state of the world is literally on fire. And all of campuses feel that way and all of this is coming together when they're trying to be independent and it's a really tough time. It just is.
- [06:42]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah, I think there's like, there are parents who are aware that their kids are struggling and want to set the stage for the best possible support system. And then there are parents who are about to be completely blindsided by this transition to college. So can you speak to kind of both of those trajectories?
- [07:06]
Professor Chris Willard
Yeah, and I think they both have their challenges and both have their, their opportunities. I was, when I went up to college, I was the, the one who blindsided his parents with the 3am phone call home, you've got to pick me up. I'm a mess. You know, after a few years of really struggling and a couple years off from college before I ended up going back. And those are a lot of the young people I work with, especially when I was working on campus, like with students. Just often I was the one there making that, that, that first call home to parents and trying to as fast as possible, help them get the resources, help them educate themselves for how they can best support their kid through maybe a really challenging hospitalization or a suicide attempt or something really drastic all the way to, you know, let's talk through your, your, your, your son or daughter. Your child might need a little bit of time off to, you know, get some, you know, outpatient therapy or something. And then there's parents who are, you know, rightly worried about their kids and Again, one of the miracles that we've had is we have better mental health awareness, we have better mental health treatment. We have medications and therapy that a few decades ago, parents and kids didn't have. And so kids that were really struggling a few decades ago that might not have made it to college or made it as far, can now get into college. But then oftentimes, that's when the supports, some of the structure that's kind of invisible sort of evaporates and kids start to really fall apart or the mental health issues come roaring back. And that's really hard to think about. How do we then help those kids? So many parents saying, I want my kid to be independent. I'm not sure if they're ready, how can I support them? I don't want to do all the work for them of setting up their therapist or their accommodations, but I also want them to fall on their face. And that's a real kind of push pull that I think so many parents are struggling with those kinds of questions. And it's an age when kids are trying to be independent, supposed to be independent, evolutionarily, supposed to be leaving the nest and learning how to do things on their own. But it can be really hard for some of these kids that haven't had practice with that. Right. There's sort of that, like, you know, that meme that you see, that's like our kids are raised in captivity and we release them into the wild. What do we expect? And if they have mental health issues, then that's even more of a challenge to figure out. Where and when do we step in and do it for them versus having them do it themselves? And that's, I think, so hard for so many families to think about.
- [09:26]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
I guess the first part of this conversation are kids who. For whom parents know that they're struggling. They've been the, you know, the ones who've been doing reminders about medication compliance or, you know, like, taking phones away at night and getting enough rest and all of the things that could really end up going sour in college. What's the best approach? Where you're still supporting autonomy, but you're not letting them just kind of go too far.
- [09:58]
Professor Chris Willard
Right. And to me, I think it's knowing your kid, starting those conversations early if, you know, as. As soon as your kid is struggling with mental health issues. I mean, maybe not talking about college when they're, you know, 10 years old or something, but. But early high school, maybe if they've had issues, starting to talk through, what will independence look like encouraging them in 9th and 10th grade to be setting their own appointments with their therapist, to be setting their own reminder system to take their med, to be advocating for themselves, for the accommodations they need. With your support. Right, of course, in IEP meetings, in school related meetings and things like that. So that they start to feel comfortable with that learning, you know, what their diagnosis is, what their own red flags are. You know, hopefully doing that in conjunction with their therapist. And then as they get older and even closer to college, it's starting to really make a plan, especially as they start to think about what kind of school do they want to go to. Like there's something to be said about being in a nice rural area at a small school that's beautiful and close to nature and that can be soothing and healing. But it also maybe means that, you know, getting a good therapist is going to be a long drive or hard to find someone in town or something like that. So starting to think through some of those questions as they start to go through that college process for the college bound kids their junior year, as they're thinking about do I want big or small, do I want urban or rural, do I want public or private? Well, what are not just the trade offs of those, but what are the mental health trade offs of those? Big school, probably a lot of great resources on campus, but probably really hard to access them because they have a big bureaucracy. Right. Smaller school, private school, oftentimes more resources than a public school, but a public school, but again, those resources may be used up. So public school is cheaper than you can pay for your own private therapy. There's all these, there's not a right or wrong answer, but there's just these questions I think that families will want to consider as they think about beginning this process of looking at schools and then at the same time inviting their kids into these conversations and then inviting their kids into the transition process of how am I going to get accommodations, how am I going to tell my roommate? Who do I want to tell? Some of that's done hopefully with their therapist and counselors back home and hopefully also, you know, with, with the parents and caregivers at the same time.
- [12:21]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
So that's actually a really good point too. Who do I want to tell? And let's just, I want to use different examples, but let's take medication compliance. Yeah, you don't want your kids not to take their medication. I guess these are young adults. Right. If they need their medication. And this is not a conversation about medication. But let's just, I think It's a really good example of being afraid as parents to mess with that. So. But also giving the tools to get really good at managing your own medication. And if you are medicated for something that is aligned with like for example, executive function challenges, it's really kind of tricky. So what are some of the ways to help kids who need to figure out how to manage their own medication, who have needs that kind of undermine the very management that it's asking for?
- [13:22]
Professor Chris Willard
Right, absolutely. I think that's such a tricky one. And if you're a parent, you know, who's listening of a kid with executive function challenges and looking for a stimulant medication, you know, as a parent, your executive functions are taxed. Calling 20 different CVSS around the state, you know, to find medication and then to remind your child to take it or your young adult to take it. And then also that's, that's a class of medications that can't be prescribed across state lines and can only be prescribed in small amounts. And so this creates even more challenges. So this is something I think to really then consider, you know, how you know, as soon as you know where you're going to school, how are you going to get that set up? Like, can you know that if you're going to school in Massachusetts, do you know prescribers there on the ground, you know, six months before you even get on that plane or load up the car to start to head out? And then finding also what are the different kinds of reminders that are going to be important to take? One of the biggest challenges, I think for college is that the schedule is so inconsistent. You're not waking up at the same time. So certainly no one's handing you your medication, but then you're not taking it at 8 in the morning every day, or a second dose at 2 o' clock in the afternoon every day. So even just remembering that in terms of routines, sometimes you're eating breakfast here, sometimes you're eating breakfast there, so those little reminders don't exist. So really building those systems into place throughout junior and senior year with an eye toward independence becomes really important in terms of executive functions. And those are often the kids I find who struggle the most in college. Anxiety is in some ways and depression are had their own challenges. Trauma has its own challenges. But executive function, because it's, oh, I forgot to eat dinner or I forgot to do this, can be really hard. And just those routines that exist when you're in high school are often absent in college. And that can be really really hard for so many kids when the habits are built on top of each other. First I take my medication, and then I go to class, and then I have lunch, and then I go to the gym, and that stuff falls away. When your schedule is different every day, so it's really tough. And then as a parent, you want to be like, do I text them and remind them, did you take your medication today? Or do I not? Do I ask the school to do that? And of course, the school doesn't do anything but how. And some of those maybe you do need to do, but it's figuring out, okay, this is a conversation we gotta have. Taking medication is gonna be hard to remember. Do you want me to remind you when, at what point in this semester do I check in on it so it's not a surprise or not a resentment or not a mom, get off my back and leave me alone kind of thing? That they can often then create more tension in the family and frustration. When you're just trying to connect with.
- [16:01]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Your kid, that's actually a really good gauge of, you know, if you just check in with your kid and say, how would you like to do this? Maybe they'll say, I'd really love your help. Let's figure this out. And maybe they'll say, leave me alone. And you, the parent, can say, okay, it's not worth corroding the relationship or undermining the relationship. So I'm gonna give them a chance to sort of fall a little bit on their face if they need to, and just let them know I'm available for help if they find that it's a little more challenging. I don't know.
- [16:35]
Professor Chris Willard
Absolutely.
- [16:37]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Or what. Yeah.
- [16:38]
Professor Chris Willard
But I think opening that space for dialogue is really important. And reminding them that you're there not to nag them, but to help them. And also reminding them, you know, who are the other adults? You know, maybe, you know, they are continuing with an executive function coach who can text them. Maybe one thing that happens with both medication and therapy for a lot of kids is there is this, like, I want to do it myself. I'm independent again. That's what their brains are telling them. And what I try to tell students as they're going off is, I want you to be independent. I want you to try new things. But I also think maybe first semester is not. When you do that. Let's see how first semester goes. Keep up your medication, keep up your therapy. And then second semester, maybe think about, I want to mix up my medication or I want to just try Taking it on weekdays and not weekends or I want to change medications or reduce or stop altogether or change therapists altogether or something like that. But it's often that first semester is sort of the, the danger zone I think especially for kids with executive function challenges or kids that are wanting more independence from the parental support or some of the other supports they've had in place. And that's natural, but it's often not the time like let's try that second semester, let's try that sophomore year maybe. So that's also I think important to remember.
- [17:53]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And now a quick break. So I'm going to tell you about Live Conscious. At Live Conscious their mission is to create simple, effective wellness solutions that elevate your everyday life one conscious choice at a time. Now one of their products I'm really into is for hair thickness. So if your hair is getting thinner or you're experiencing that post baby thinning or that perimenopausal thinning or just, just because it's always, you know, who doesn't want thick luscious hair? They have something called Hair L Clinical by Live Conscious and Hair Lay Clinical is different from every other hair growth supplement on the market. They have a high potency multivitamin with ingredients that a lot of hair supplements don't disclose the source of. And so you don't know the quality or how much it is. But Live Conscious has the highest recommended dose of things like Saw Palmetto. So they're actually the only brand verified for quality and potency in the US and you've got nothing to lose because with all Live Conscious products you get a 365 day money back guarantee. No stress, no hassle, just focus on your hair. Visit L I V E Conscious C O N S C I o u s.com today and make the switch to a hair vitamin that works. Use the code humans. So let's talk about Ollie Wellness because I just had an event with them with Ashley Graham and it was so much fun and I got packed into a bag so many of the great multivitamins, the kids multiplus vitamins, the women's vitamins. For me, some melatonin which I think is so good for back to school routines, immune support, just like all the things that are so great to set the new school year routine because you know that the new school year means busy times, busy schedules. One of the best things we can do is set set routines. So I don't know about your back to school routines but what happens at breakfast time can be kind of mayhem. I like to have Ollie in. I actually take it out of the containers and like set it up and it's all gummies. So I feel like I'm getting a little bit of candy in the morning, but it happens to be a multivitamin. And by the way, I didn't even used to believe so much in vitamins, but then I found out I was vitamin D deficient and B12 and all of the things that I now don't have to worry about because they're in the women's multivitamins gummies. So make sure to go to o l l y.com now these statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease. But I do love olivitamins and, and I think you will too. Let's talk about kids who have closer to anxiety, depression and things their parents might be incredibly worried about, their wellbeing. And you just mentioned something that matters, both for kids who struggle with executive function, but also if you have a kid who struggles with anxiety. And part of how you know that they do well is adequate sleep and adequate exercise and all of the things that are not happening in school and routines and predictability.
- [21:35]
Professor Chris Willard
Yeah.
- [21:36]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
What are the ways to sort of plant those seeds? Is it an explicit, you know, is it the same idea of like, I'm here to help, but I also want you to try to figure this out, or is there a point at which you have to say you have to choose between kind of where you're going and what you know, what is the priority in terms of learning versus mental health? Although wouldn't it be nice if they were part of the same package?
- [22:04]
Professor Chris Willard
Right. Absolutely. And to me, there's all this sort of like explicit and implicit structure when you're in high school of it doesn't occur to you necessarily that someone's handing you a plate of food in the morning and at night, or you walk through the cafeteria criteria because it's, you know, three doors down from your math classroom and that's where all your friends are, you know, and then you take a kid who's anxious going off to college and they are maybe too anxious to go to the dining hall or because they don't know who they're going to sit with, or they're nervous about getting lost on their way there, or they feel self conscious about eating in front of people whether they have a body image issue or not, and then they're not eating and then their anxiety gets Worse. And then, you know, everything else starts to fall apart. Their executive functions fall apart because they're not eating. Their sleep schedule falls apart. Right? All of those things fall apart. Or the gym being another example. And that's another thing where a lot of kids who are playing, not even necessarily three varsity sports, but going to gym class a few times a week, and they get to college, they're not doing that anymore, and they're like, why is my mood so bad? Why is my appetite off? Why aren't I sleeping? It's like, well, exercise actually regulates all those things. And so if you don't put it in your schedule, make yourself go, it gets really hard to go. So to me, this is what helps kids at colleges succeed. There's not that same structure, but the social world is often the structure. So if you make the friends who you then go to the dining hall with, if you go to the gym with your roommate, if you maybe take a PE class or a swimming class or a fitness class, that gets you to the gym and gets you exercising and gets you up in the morning, that those things actually can help. You have to really think through how do you make that structure. And again, maybe they don't want to make it with you, the parent, but maybe. I mean, a lot of schools, I'll be honest, the advisors are not terribly helpful on that front, but maybe their therapist from home can help them think through those questions of how do you build that routine? And that, you know, kind of like, how do you, you know, for a kid that's depressed, how do you get out of your room? Because, you know, getting out of bed when you're depressed is really, really hard to do. You know, getting the right amount of sleep and not too much sleep or too little sleep when you're depressed is really hard to do. Pushing yourself to be social, pushing yourself to eat anything when you're depressed is incredibly hard. So what are the ways that we can adapt that? And some of it is maybe, yeah, have some snacks in your room. But also, you do have to get out. And you can't just hide in your room and eat Uber Eats. You have to kind of take that opposite action. You have to kind of, you know, get yourself into the world. And that is part of the college experience is not being all social all the time, but it's figuring out how to work with and rely on other people to help you succeed and be your best and how to ask for help and how to just kind of be a part of the. Everyone in the dorm is now walking down to the dining hall or as a few people are heading to the gym. And that's hard. It's really hard for kids who are anxious or depressed to build that themselves. So the more you can just say it's going to take a little bit more work for you than it might for other people, or I know you're an introvert, it's going to take a little bit more work for you to find those other people to go to the cafeteria with. I think it's really important to just have those conversations and remind them that it's often a little harder than they might think and in other ways easier than they might think. But it's these funny places that I see be challenging for kids that end up having these kind of cascading effects on their mental health and their self care and these kinds of things.
- [25:34]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
No, you know, I do wonder, like, is there an advantage to the kids who've already figured out that they struggle in this way and they've been getting treatment and support and they recognize like there is an open conversation, are that, what, what are the other kinds of, you know, tricky transitions or ways to have conversations with young people who may not have actually had any clinical struggles or maybe they have had some, like, little hints of it, but you just haven't seen any real challenges. What are the red flags to look out for and what are some ways to help them set themselves up for this kind of healthy start? I guess there's also the question of, we do tend to talk about college as like our greatest memories and our greatest four years. And it's going to be the time of your life and.
- [26:27]
Professor Chris Willard
Right.
- [26:27]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And if you haven't had a lot of friends in high school, maybe college is going to be your time. And so you set this expectation up. And I wonder if that, you know, I don't know, I love some optimism, but maybe a more realistic appraisal might be helpful.
- [26:46]
Professor Chris Willard
Yeah. And like, what's that saying? Like, expectations are disappointments. Waiting to happen is waiting to happen. And, and I do feel like it is such a challenge. So many of the people, the, the young people I work with talk about that. Like, everyone says this is supposed to be the best years of my life. Like, why am I so miserable? Why is this so hard? Or why, you know, why, you know, why can't I get it done? Why can't I make friends? I thought this was gonna be the answer to my, my struggles. And it's like, you know, there is the, you know, wherever you go, there you are. And some kids need to work on what are my social skills or how do I push myself and things like that. You're never leaving your, you know, you're leaving some things behind and, you know, some. Some bad interactions behind, you know, from high school, but you're not leaving yourself behind, fundamentally. And. And I think that's really important to remember, and you're often not leaving your habits behind. And sort of the. The best and worst thing, as one of the people I interviewed for the book said, is, is that you get to kind of reinvent yourself. But I think you also have to know yourself. I remember when I went off to college, you know, they're like, asking you about your roommates, and I was like, I am a morning person, and I don't smoke and I don't party. And it was. I was putting down the person I wanted to be, not the person actually was. And my roommates hated me because I was up all night and I was smoking in the room, and I was, like, being loud. And so, like, be realistic about who you are in the roommate form. Be realistic about, you know, you know, if you've never gone to the gym before, you're probably not going to go, but maybe you can, you know, take some more walks around campus in town than you used to. If you never ate healthy before, you're not going to eat all salads in the dining hall, but, you know, maybe you can find some other, you know, people that are trying to eat a little bit healthy, or maybe you can meet with the campus nutritionist, because that's part of your $95,000 tuition. So I think these things are important to remember and think about, too, that it's this amazing chance for a reset. But you are still you, and you do still have a lot of the same needs. And then I think in some ways, for kids, as you said, that have had some mental health challenges and hiccups, it's a little easier because hopefully they've worked with a good therapist or with their family or it doesn't have to be a therapist with their soccer coach, with their drama teacher, with some other great adults in their life to help them understand. This is what I need to take care of myself. This is what I need for my own mental health. This is what I need in terms of asking for help. This is what I need in terms of academic accommodations or just the number of friends that I kind of need and the amount of sleep that I need so that they're going in there knowing that, and they can start to build something that looks like that again, even though it'll look a little bit different.
- [29:30]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And now for a quick break. I want to tell you what I've been doing with Wayfair this month. So Wayfair has been an opportunity. I'm going to cry talking about it, but it's been an opportunity to get tons of dorm shopping done because I am sending off my daughter to her freshman year of college. They have dorm packs, like, it's already in a bundle, so you could just get the whole bundle. There's bedding that's exactly the right size for those extra long twin beds in the dorm and the pads and ways to have more storage underneath that tiny little bed. And all of the little secrets that make staying in a dorm just a little bit more comfortable. They have everything down to the towel robe you can wear and the little shower caddies that you need to take so highly. Recommend stopping by Wayfair for all of the things that you need. This is obviously top of my mind, but Wayfair always has everything you need, whether it's, you know, outdoor furniture or all the items to send your daughter off to college. Get organized, refreshed, and back to routine for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home or dorm room. Okay, I want to tell you about quints because I love quints. They have so much stuff that I use. Like, I bought new sheets for the summer. I thought it would be just so luxurious to have nice, new, awesome soft sheets. And I could not believe the pricing. And I got the sateen white sheets. I cannot tell you how luxurious they felt. I also, you know, I gotta get cashmere from there. They have amazing cashmere sweaters. They're starting at just $40. Like everything there is so well priced. Because they work directly with top artisans, they cut out the middleman. The pricing is unbelievable. Like, my sheets are so luxurious feeling. And the cashmere is so soft, you cannot believe the pricing. Quince really does give you luxury without the markup. And because they only work with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes, you don't have to associate lower prices with lower quality. Elevate your fall wardrobe and bedding essentials with quince. Go to quince.com humans for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U I N C E.com humans to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com humans so what about the kids who just get completely shocked, like have you seen that? And, and is there something that, as, you know, like in the care package of starting life in college that parents should be doing to set any one of these kids, no matter how robust they seem, for a smoother transition?
- [32:59]
Professor Chris Willard
I think the more kids have a sense of what that's like. Like I'm a kid that, you know, when I went to college I had a hard time and I had never, I'd been once to sleepaway camp and I, I wish my parents had sent me to more sleepaway camp. I had not learned a lot of basic life skills that would have served me well. I did not really understand my own learning style when I went off. You know, I did have, you know, some sense of mental health issues. And I think some schools do a decent ish job of, you know, senior year, here's your self care, sort of like launching for college. But seniors are not really that interested in listening to adults tell them, you know, sort of their, their life skills they need for college. But I, I do think that, you know, talking through with kids like, you know, what, what works for you now, you know, what are your values? What are the things that you want to, what are the things you want to try? What are the things you, you know, want to let go of? What are the things you want to keep doing when you go off to college? Like, you won't be doing varsity sports if you weren't recruited, but maybe you do really want to do intramural basketball or try the Frisbee team or Quidditch team or something like that. And I think talking through with kids that the resources also, you know, I'm a mental health guy, I'm a therapist, I'm a psychologist. But that one of the challenges of college is that there's very few adults that you interact with. And the adults you interact with don't have to be a therapist. It can be the head of the cultural center, it can be the campus rabbi, it can be one of the trainers in the gym, it can be someone in the financial aid office. It can be, you know, so many different kinds of people. And it can be a professor. Certainly it doesn't have to be a therapist, but it is really useful to have one adult on campus who's kind of watching out for you or who kind of knows what's going on with you that, that can be helpful and then knowing what the Resources are and where they are. Kids that are maybe not certain if they want to meet with a therapist. I would get calls that are like a little bit helicoptery parents, but my kid might need a therapist. Can they meet with you during orientation week? And it's like, you know what? Sure. Have them come in for 15 minutes. They know where the office is. They know there's a friendly face there. Maybe it's a little helicoptery of this parent, but you know what? They now know that that resource is there. Meet with the writing tutor or the executive function coaches if your campus offers those during orientation week. Just so you know where the place is, you know who the faces are, you know that one person's kind of cool, even though the other ones are kind of dorky. Go over to Hillel, go over to whatever it might be for your cultural identity to just meet a couple people and you decide later whether you want to spend more time there. But everyone is doing that during orientation week or beforehand. And then you at least know where a couple allies on campus might be. And certainly going to those other activity fairs. And kids are like, well, I'm not interested in xyz. It's like the activity matters much less than the people that you find there.
- [36:04]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
What that is wiser than anything, which is. You're right. If you get kids that are like, I'm not doing that. I'm not interested in that. But they're. They might miss out on finding a core group of here.
- [36:17]
Professor Chris Willard
Yeah, yeah. It's like, maybe you don't want to go to the board games club. You don't like board games, but those kids are cool. You stop playing board games. You hang out, just play ping pong or, you know, have a couple beers or go to the movies, whatever. Like, that's, you know, that that's the wind is not that I have to find someone that plays board games or I have to find someone that's interested in poetry. It's like, no, you find some people that maybe have a slightly common interest, but then you end up hanging out. Because as I learned in social psych freshman year in college, proximity is how you make friends. Most people in college say, I can't believe the amazing people in my orientation wilderness group. Or I got so lucky with the people in my hall. It's like, no, there was no planning. The reality is it was luck and it's proximity. You walk by their door every day. You shared a tent with them on orientation. You painted a mural downtown, you know, and chatted about high school and it's that. That. That builds friendships in some ways more than, you know, a specific interest, necessarily.
- [37:15]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Yeah. My freshman trip, I made my first best friend and my college roommate assigned freshman year, college roommate, best friend. Like, they were just nothing like me. We are still totally different, but we were just around each other so much.
- [37:32]
Professor Chris Willard
Right.
- [37:33]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Very lucky, I guess. But you're right. It's also just. You're just shoved in someone's face. Enough people. You mentioned helicoptery, and I wanted to address that because for parents who are feeling like they might be a little helicoptery and they're trying to figure out how to not be as helicoptery, but not so much, you know, like, what is. And I think also just a shout out of compassion because I would normally probably be much more. I would be much less empathetic maybe if I weren't sending a child off to. I'm like the most annoying helicopter in the world because my baby. I'm not talking about other people's babies.
- [38:19]
Professor Chris Willard
Right.
- [38:19]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
And so. But, like, what are the ways that we can check ourselves to make sure that we are supporting their. Supporting them on this path while also not actually undermining their mental health?
- [38:36]
Professor Chris Willard
Absolutely. I mean, I think it is trusting them, trusting the system that's going to hold them in place, not micromanaging, knowing that this is when they have to learn to swim, learn to fly, whatever metaphor we want to use there, and that we've done a good job giving them those supports, that we've taught them how to reach out and find a therapist. Maybe we did that together the June before they headed off to talk with three therapists, before they headed out, to point to the resources that might be helpful to them, to let them know the people we also know in town in common or something like that, to help them kind of get connected when they're off there. I think for parents, too, to talk with their kids. And it's different if your kid has mental health issues than if they don't. But it's an important conversation nonetheless of like, how much are we going to be in touch? Are we going to talk? You know, like, probably when you and I were in college, like on Sunday night, go to the, you know, like the dorm hall. Everyone's like, you know, kind of like waiting for the payphone or getting, you know, or I guess we had phones in our rooms by. By later in college. But like. Or is it going to be texting every day sometimes also, I think, you know, for kids and parents to say, you know, when they talk, just knowing when they're next going to talk, you know, so it's not like the parents are. Everyone's like, are they going to call me? Am I going to call them? It's like, let's talk again on Thursday unless I hear from you. But for parents to say to the kids, you know, like, you reach out. Not I'm going to be the one that always is the one to reach out. Like, I'll reach out once a week. You reach out as much as you want. That. That's kind of a way of doing it. And to balance, you know, do you want me to find five therapists in town? And you call three. Do you want me to, you know, call none? Do you want me to help you get in touch with your old therapist to send documents over? Do you want to do that yourself again? Offering that, but not doing it. And if you do, do it with them so that they're learning how to do that process together. So I think those things are important. And parents to find some other things to do. Like travel is cheapest in the fall. That's a good time in September to get a plane ticket to Europe if you can afford it. Or take a vacation when your kids are off to school. Find those empty nest things to reconnect with your friends and other fellow parents around, to reconnect with your spouse or your partner. If the two of you are still connected, rediscover what else is meaningful to you. Which is really hard because our identity has been for the last 18, 19, 20 years, being a parent, raising kids. And of course, you still are a parent, you will be for the rest of your life. But you know, letting go of some of that identity into something else, whether it's something new or reconnecting with some other things, can be really important and, or getting involved with the school, you know, parent mental health committee, parent planning committee, if you, if you want to. But there's other ways to stay involved at a distance, too.
- [41:43]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Have you noticed a drastic shift in, like, it's not just what we're seeing on paper, but you, you've seen a qualitatively different shift in mental health in these college students in the last five years. Like, have you noticed a real problem? Not to worry people, because I would love some, you know, hope and optimism because I think there's also really great stuff out there. It's such an exciting time and there's so possibility. But I'm also wondering, like, how much is just like histrionic news and how much of it is like, no, the Data are not. This is what we are seeing.
- [42:27]
Professor Chris Willard
It's a bit of a both. And I think we are seeing more mental health issues and we also are seeing more kids who are having a hard time. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're having an acute mental health crisis, but more kids that are struggling to manage their own emotions, more kids that are struggling to manage homesickness, more kids that are struggling to manage executive functions because maybe the helicopter parents aren't quite there in the background. So that's a little bit real too. And so some of it is, you know, shifting, as a friend of mine said, who I interviewed for the book, like, as you raise your kids, you go from boss to manager to consultant, right? Into more of that kind of role. And that, that, you know, but, but what happens is if we just stay boss or we just stay manager without going to consultant, kids don't. They don't know what to do when they're having a big feeling or when their high school boyfriend or girlfriend or whoever, you know, dumps them or breaks up with them or ghosts them or whatever, and they reach back out to us. And so that's the point when they're having, I don't want to say a mini crisis, but a little bit of a emotional crisis, maybe not a full blown mental health crisis. When we can say, I know you can handle this. I know there's awesome resources on campus. I know you've probably got some friends from high school you can call, you've got some new friends you're creating that you can call. And I want to be there for you, but I also want you to try talking to them first and come back to me maybe and tell me a little bit about that. So we're kind of empowering them into that. Exactly, exactly. And that becomes important. But back to your question of, you know, is it objectively worse? It is a little bit objectively worse. And I think kids are a little bit under. Under resourced in some ways because parents have been more managers, they've been consultants, have been more. I talked to Julie Lithgood Haymes from Stanford, and she was saying, you know, rather than swooping and solve, let's empathize and empower. Right. Another kind of quote that I really like. If the kids are not empowered to solve it themselves, they won't, and they'll come back, you know, and kind of hit us and we'll think, is it a mental health crisis or is it just like they don't know what to do?
- [44:36]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
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- [49:50]
Professor Chris Willard
Crisis or crappy. That should be a title. Chapter title. Crisis or crappy. I mean, I do think that is one of the most important things actually that you say for parents to regulate themselves. This becomes really hard when our kids are away because when they sense that we're upset, then what happens is they overreact. Something must really be wrong because I can tell how upset mom or dad is. Right. And then what happens is they either fly home because they want to, you know, because they think something's really wrong, or they then end up hiding it from us, which we also don't want.
- [50:23]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
Because we're so panicked that they feel like they can't tell us.
- [50:26]
Professor Chris Willard
Exactly. Exactly. So the more we can keep ourselves regulated, you know, the old you know, put your own oxygen mask on first. You're the calm pilot, you know, keep the passengers from freaking out. Kind of metaphors that we hopefully know. The more we can stay calm and regulated, the more we can kind of see a little bit more clearly, the more we can, you know, and then I think the things we want to listen for, you know, of course, you know, self harm, you know, of course, you know, suicidality, you know, of course things, you know, like that. But, you know, when we, you know, when it's lasting, you know, get really clinical, it's like, if it lasts for more than a few weeks, you know, as opposed to one or two rough nights after that breakup, going to college is one of the biggest adjustments anyone will make. So it's going to be scary and overwhelming, and it's so many emotions. And I was best friends with this person during orientation, and now they're not talking to me. And I had the crush on this guy, and now they have a crush on that person. And it's like there's so many emotions and so much happening in those phrases. Right. And so, like, how do we then, you know, sort of recognize what's fleeting and what's lasting and. And even something like a panic attack, it's like they. They go away, you know, like, they eventually fade. Right. I couldn't sleep last night. I was so stressed or so sad. But, you know, you'll probably get to sleep tonight and your sleep will come back and you'll get into a new schedule and it'll suck. It'll be hard, but you'll get there. You'll get through it. And we are here. Let's see if you can make it, you know, another couple days before, you know, we. We buy that plane ticket home or before I drive down to campus or something like that. And then helping them get connected, you know, who. Who else is there? Let's check with the counseling center. Let's, you know, check with the, you know, Unitarian minister. Let's check with, you know, the lgbtq, you know, kind of director, you know, and see what they have to say. Because there's many people that are trained in mental health, trained in, you know, kind of mini and maxi crises for young people on a campus, too. Besides just the things therapists, I think.
- [52:35]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
What can sound both terrifying and soothing, depending on who the person receiving the information is, is that there's a long space between crappy and crisis, like a really long Runway. And.
- [52:51]
Professor Chris Willard
Yeah.
- [52:52]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
So when the really scary stuff is happening and it's like overtly A crisis. It. It's bad stuff. It's not like, it's not just like calling and crying at home, I think, or to your point, like a panic attack. And I think it's worth noting that it's just hard. Like transitions are hard but survivable, and that it sounds like there are a lot of adults in that environment who are well prepared and trained to be there for young people. Is it fair to say that they want to be there for the young people? Like, is it worth mentioning to our kids? Like, hey, by the way, it is the opposite of burdensome to reach out to an adult?
- [53:39]
Professor Chris Willard
Absolutely. And I think, I mean, I think there's some professors who are like, I don't know what to do. This kid's crying. But I think, you know, most, most schools, I think we've done a good job of getting out there educating, you know, warning signs for professors and everybody on campus. Most people, certainly most people on campus. I can't say I do think it's true of most professors. Professors sometimes have their own research interests and things like that. Almost everybody working in the financial aid office, in student services, you know, in, you know, cultural centers, you know, in spiritual life on campus, in athletics, they're there because they care about young people. They are not getting rich. They're probably really smart, talented people who could do things that are higher paying. Some of them often really wish they could do a little bit more informal counseling and kind of emotional support and be something of a mentor for young people than they necessarily get a chance to. And so I think reminding students of that, that, you know, most people are there because they want to be there and they like working with young people. And it's not about obviously getting rich. And so there are different kinds of resources. But it's weird to be in an environment with very few adults that's, you know, one of these weird things you don't think about. It's like suddenly you are only interacting with, you know, one grownup all day. Your professor maybe not even interacting, just listening to them lecture at you. And the rest of the time is all 18 to 24 year olds. And it's like, that's not always a great, you know, judgment that, you know, but it's, it's very strange to be in a world with no adults and very little age. Diversity is, is strange. But there's a lot of.
- [55:23]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
When you're at a school, like, I mean, are you at Harvard?
- [55:29]
Professor Chris Willard
I am, yep. I'm at Harvard Medical School where I teach. I'm not, you know, working as a, as a, in the counseling center, but I did work at Tufts University in the counseling center, and I have a private practice where I work mostly with college students and young adults and high school kids. So.
- [55:43]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
So at a school, like, if you're experiencing a place like Harvard and medical school is obviously vastly different from undergraduate, but in the, in the environments where you've been that are very intense, like, they tend to attract students who have been probably pretty intense there during their school years to get there. And like, how do you slow them down when they're like, so surround. They're like surrounded by now everybody who's like that. They're not like a few people in their high school, but they're all driven in this way. How do you get those kids to be mindful? Like, literally, how do you get any mindfulness practice going if that feels like the literal waste of time to them? No matter what neuroscience says? Asking for a friend.
- [56:37]
Professor Chris Willard
Asking for a friend. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And a lot of my earlier work is mindfulness and writing about mindfulness and mindfulness in young people. So maybe another interview for another day. But yeah, I think we might need.
- [56:48]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
To have a second session.
- [56:50]
Professor Chris Willard
And I think, you know, so many of those kids, you know, at elite schools are so hard driving, and then they're like in this environment where everyone else is. And it really is just like the collective nervous system is just buzzing at this different level as well as the collective cognitive, you know, level is just at this whole different level. And I think the idea of, like, stress as a badge of honor is so toxic. If I'm not stressed out, I'm doing it wrong and everyone else is. And I actually think, you know, suggesting to people that they manage their stress is, is, is, is not helpful. Suggesting that they calm down is not helpful. Suggesting that they take a break.
- [57:29]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
What could be more offensive?
- [57:31]
Professor Chris Willard
Exactly. But finding ways to remind them of, you know, kind of get in touch with what are their deeper values. Get in touch also with like, you know, I think when it comes to mindfulness, sometimes it is about, you know, mindfulness, breath, work, eating, sleeping, that these things actually are important for productivity, for creativity. I was giving a lecture recently just about like the science of breaks, like five minute breaks. And for some of these kids, even one minute breaks, like what that does to your creativity, to your productivity, to your focus, to these kinds of things. So sometimes it's about, you know, this is, this is a hack almost for more, more productivity, but it does end up actually, you know, impacting your mental health, your stress, your physical health, even in these other ways. And also what happens, I think for a lot of kids that have been hard charging and crushed it through high school to get to an elite, high powered college or graduate school is eventually people do hit a wall, right? And eventually they do discover this stress is turning into anxiety or this burnout is turning into depression. And I think also the normalization of that there is an enormous, I mean the years that I worked directly in counseling, college counseling, I don't know, this is like the mid 2010s or something, but it was like each year it was like my caseload would be full by October. By the time I Left in like 2014 or something, my caseload was full before the students even got there. So it was like, and there's a wait list and then there were groups and then there were. So that, you know, when kids, actually, when young people, kids, I know it's so hard not to say, but when young people know that, you know, that 30% of their peers are trying to get into the counseling service in the first year of college and that they are not alone, and that most kids will meet with someone around counseling by the time that they're done, or that, you know, when I do mindfulness groups on campuses that it's often, hey, you know what? Or I do like a dorm, you know, sort of like mental health kind of 101 visit. It's like, okay, maybe this isn't, maybe you're fine, but one of your friends, you know, probably one in three of your friends is going to have a panic attack, a mental health crisis, something, you know, an A minus, you know, some of these places and not getting your internship right, this can be helpful for you to help them. But let's try doing this breath practice together, let's try doing this self compassion practice together so that you can, you know, help them, but maybe try it for yourself first. And that, that can sometimes be empowering because you know, we do have these kids that really are amazing do gooders that want to help other people and they want to be peer leaders and want to be peer supports and want to be, you know, kind of helpful in all kinds of ways and be good friends and, and that's often part of it is here's, here's how you can help your friend with some kind of, you know, mental health first aid thing. And that can, that can feel empowering for them and get the message in sideways sometimes. So I think letting you know, letting it go, you know, Remembering our own mistakes. I think one of the hardest things as parents, actually a 16 year old said this to me a couple of years ago. You know, I think one of the hardest things for my parents is watching me make the same mistakes that they did. And it's so tr. I think, you know, knowing that some people learn through classrooms and that's why they're going to college, but most of us also learn through experience of falling on our face and getting up and touching the hot stove and learning not to touch it again and, and so trusting that sometimes our kids will learn from our mistakes by telling them what our windy pathways were. And that's really important to do, by the way, to say, hey, it took me six years to get through undergrad, but then four to get through grad school, which is what I tell my kids. But that also they're going to have to make some of their own mistakes and we can be there to help them process those mistakes or struggles or challenges that everyone want to say mistakes, but they'll face challenges and we can be there for them and we can help them find other people to be there for them to process them too as they figure it out. And that, that's so awesome to see your own kid figured this stuff out to see your, you know, I mean my kids are young right now, but to watch my 10 year old last week with his pediatrician, I'm on the call and he's asking her questions about his medication and it's like, that's awesome. Like I'm so psyched to watch him be that independent and empowered about his own self care is really inspiring. And then I'll have to remind him next time but to take his medication. But.
- [62:39]
Dr. Eliza Pressman
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