Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (3:23)

Like f around and find out. I think you don't.

Dr. Liza Pressman (3:26)

You can just set limits and that's just authoritative parenting, which is setting limits and being sensitive so you can empathize and keep consider your child's temperament and be thoughtful about them while still setting clear limits and boundaries. That's actually not renegade. It's been decade after decade leading to positive outcomes for kids in the research. It's just like maybe Instagram is confused. The other side of it would be authoritarian parenting. Which it's funny cuz in the Wall Street Journal article they kept calling this FAFO parenting authoritative as if that's a bad thing. But authoritative parenting has been the gold standard as I said. So it's not renegade. Authoritarian is an, an extreme reaction that where you're just like, because I said so, fear based control, no sensitivity whatsoever. That also doesn't have great outcomes. So you kind of want the space between as always. I write extensively about this in the five Principles of Parenting. You have to have consequences. You have to have clarity. You have to set limits and boundaries that are appropriate and thoughtful and that help both you and your child feel safe emotionally and physically and the other people around them. It's, it's time and again the place that helps us maintain our own parenting integrity. Because if you're calm, calm, Calm, Permissive. Permissive, Permissive, you're probably going to lose your mind at some point and lash out even more than you would have if you had set limits in the first place. But it's also a definitely more gentle approach than just authoritarian because I said so. You better be afraid. I think that we know doesn't do well for kids or adults because those outcomes are also not great. So permissive is not great and authoritarian is not great. Authoritative, however you want to call it. It's just in, in the research, authoritative is kind of still continuing to have the best outcomes for kids. So I'm glad there's a backlash against gentle parenting on the one hand. On the other hand, I don't want the backlash to be totally the other extreme. I think like let's, let's use our reason and think, oh, these are extremes, they get a lot of attention. Gentle parenting gets a lot of attention because it's extreme. I guess FAFO would get a lot of attention or authoritarian. But let's like regroup and come back to forget the algorithm, forget all of the big headlines. What do we need for ourselves and our kids to be functioning and to feel like we have some handle on how we're raising our kids. So I hope, as always, I have a balanced approach that speaks to you and that is really coming from the literature and is there with the idea that it's more realistic, it's better for everybody, and frankly, it protects you from feeling like you've completely lost your way and that your kids run the entire roost. And I think it's a great time to talk about this because as we now have hit August, this is like we're deep in summer, we're already panicking about the school year starting if you've got preschoolers through school age. And yet it seems like all limits and boundaries are out the window and then we're seeing less, lots of behavior issues and then we're losing our temper a lot. So I'd rather you have a plan. I'd rather you set limits and feel good about them because they make sense for your kids, because they are sensitive to what your kids need, but not necessarily what they want, because want and need are different things. Am I a broken record about this? Possibly. But when I see these articles, they that everybody sends me where the conclusion is basically like, set clear limits and be sensitive to your relationship with your child and have a connection with them, I'm like, this is not big news. This is the same thing that we've been saying. So I enlisted Tina Payne Bryson in a conversation about gentle parenting and clarifying what the good, the bad, the misinterpreted and just like, let's get rid of the noise and get rid of the trends and just go back to what really matters for our kids and what really is helpful in everyday parenting. Okay, that was my soapbox. I will get off it now. I hope you enjoyed this episode and of course you know where to find my book, the five Principles of Parenting. I lay it all out pretty clearly by age so that there's information whether you have infants, toddlers, preschoolers, school aged or adolescents. There's the practical application of all of this research. And Tina Payne Bryson and her Co author, Dr. Dan Siegel have written five, I think five New York Times bestselling books that are incredibly helpful. None of them are gentle, but none of them are authoritarian. And so we thought we'd be in conversation and I would say between Tina and I, she is more gentle than I am, but I am more gentle than an authoritarian parent.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (9:19)

I think that's where we land and.

Dr. Liza Pressman (9:22)

We have great conversations and I think you're in pretty safe hands. With us. Okay, one more thing. If you want to have a live conversation and talk directly to me with other people, just go to doctoralizapressman substack.com There's a free newsletter that you absolutely should be getting because it's. I don't inundate you. I really just try to give you the major takeaways to remember from the episodes. And also I have this monthly time to talk to you and we can talk through the questions that you have. It's a small group, it's monthly, it's the price of a cup of coffee. And I think it's great for just feeling grounded, feeling cared for and having community. Now for a quick break so I can tell you about my sponsors. We've all been there. You're having fun at the playground and then all of a sudden your kid has a massive blowout and you need to grab a bunch of wipes. And we also know that wipes are the biggest tool in our arsenal, from everyday diaper changes to little cleanups. And so as one of the most used products every day, let's find out what the ingredients are on our baby's skin and really our own skin. And water wipes are particularly good for sensitive skin because they have minimal ingredients. They provide a superior clean. They leave nothing behind, so no residue. And so that residue from other wipes can irritate skin. But water wipes helps protect the skin's natural balance of its microbiome. And water wipes contains just two ingredients. 99.9% purified water and then a little drop of fruit extract. And the power behind water wipes is water. All water wipes products contain pure water filtered through a unique seven step process that is specifically developed to be purer than cloth and water. And this means especially, especially for again, sensitive skin, you can pick up a pack of water wipes and feel super confident. So for a deeper, more effective clean that leaves absolutely nothing behind, pick up a pack of water wipes at Walmart, Target or wherever you get your wipes. Head on over to my bonus episode where I teamed up with Chemist Confessions and we did all of the investigating and testing and they demonstrated the effectiveness of water wipes and looked at competitor brands. Visit water wipes.com to learn more about how water wipes effectively cleans with minimal ingredients that leave nothing behind. Finding great candidates to hire at work can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You get so many resumes and not enough candidates with the right skills or experience for exactly what you're looking for. Now there's ZipRecruiter that changes all of that. ZipRecruiter finds amazing candidates for you and fast. And right now you can try it for free@ziprecruiter.com humans so ZipRecruiter has this smart technology that essentially identifies top talent for your roles quickly. Because you post the job, you put the Description in, and ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology starts showing you qualified people for exactly the job that you're posting. And if you don't want to write the description yourself, ZipRecruiter has a pre written invite to apply message to personally reach out to your favorite candidates and encourage them to apply sooner. Ditch the other hiring sites and let ZipRecruiter find what you're looking for. The needle in the haystack. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it at home for free at the exclusive web address ziprecruiter.com humans again that ziprecruiter.com humans ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire you and I talk all the time about.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (13:32)

Well, we talk about a lot of things, but we talk a lot about the things we wish we could just like say out loud or straighten about some of the misunderstandings and the science.

Dr. Liza Pressman (13:45)

And not even in the science, but.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (13:47)

In the translation of science and the translation of the sometimes wonderful, sometimes not so wonderful soundbite universe of social media and parenting.

Dr. Liza Pressman (14:01)

And so we have often said we.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (14:04)

Should have this conversation on the podcast so that other people can participate in this conversation. So, like, we're doing it, let's do it.

Dr. Liza Pressman (14:13)

And the first thing that came to.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (14:15)

Mind to me was the article that both of us saw in the New Yorker that was talking about gentle parent, the harm of gentle parenting.

Dr. Dan Siegel (14:24)

Yeah. The title was the Harsh Realm of Gentle Parenting. It's a great title. She, she's a great writer.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (14:30)

Great.

Dr. Dan Siegel (14:30)

Yeah.

Dr. Liza Pressman (14:32)

And I think it was an important.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (14:34)

Conversation to have because there have been a lot of misunderstandings and religion that's been going on in parenting. But the, the thing that struck me in that article was that much of this stuff that seemed like it was uncovering a truth is actually just authoritative parenting.

Dr. Dan Siegel (14:57)

Yes. Yes.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (14:59)

Right.

Dr. Dan Siegel (15:00)

Yeah. And I think what's so interesting is, I mean, obviously semantics matter. Like how people define things matters. Right. But I thought it was really interesting in the article kind of talking about how people call this, like, gentle parenting. It's kind of an umbrella term for A pretty nebulous thing. It means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. People. But what, what she was talking about in the article was you know, there's this kind of movement centering on acknowledging kids feelings. This is like what she said in the article. Acknowledging kids feelings and the motivations behind the challenging behaviors as opposed to correcting the behavior. And this is where I think there's like a gap. Right, There's a gap in thinking about. Yeah, we got to talk about this. And actually I did my dissertation on this like 20 years ago. It is authoritative paper parenting gone far to permissive.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (15:49)

Yeah, it just moved.

Dr. Dan Siegel (15:51)

Exactly. And, and I'll. I'll say too, I feel. Well, I've always said any approach, even if it's a really good, wonderful positive science based one taken to a literal and extreme only way is always bad. And I've never seen it not be bad. And I feel a little bit responsible, social sort of for. I feel like in the whole brainchild and no drama discipline, Dan and I pushed the pendulum a little bit towards or a lot towards this idea of tuning into the mind a lot of with, along with, along with a lot of other people tuning into the mind behind the behavior and acknowledging the child's feelings and, and you know, giving, giving words and narrating children's experiences. And you know, we talk about chase the why but here's the problem. We still are really confused in that we think about strict punitiveness and not paying attention to the child's emotions as one side of a single spectrum. And the other side is this gentle parenting where we're like all about the child's experience and it's completely child led and it's all these things. It's not. They are not opposites of one dimension. They are two separate. Separate dimensions.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (17:06)

Yeah, exactly. That is what, what we really want to highlight in this conversation. Right. Like, and, and I think what you and Dan did that was so critical is that you made part of the whole world of parenting outside of the obviously the textbooks and academia aware of attunement and connection and in language that actually spoke to parents. And then as a result it also spoke to so many clinicians and then it spoke to so many people that I think it got retranslated a gazillion different ways. And so you get people that translate it as setting a boundary is shaming or having, you know, having one part of the dimension that is not. Not about attunement is somehow creating a disconnect and therefore not part of that kind of way of being. And so it wasn't really that this, that I think you were swinging the pendulum that way. I think you were highlighting the part of child development that previously had gotten less attention, which was the power of that attunement and connection.

Dr. Liza Pressman (18:24)

And then I think people read it.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (18:26)

Some people as that is the only thing and that somehow it is separate from, instead of in concert with boundaries and limit setting. It's just bizarre because it never said.

Dr. Dan Siegel (18:38)

That I 100% stand by the push that I think we needed to move towards tuning into the interior life of our children, tuning into our own interior life. But where things had gone wrong is the pendulum has swung so far that people have misunderstood a couple of big things. One big thing is what we're talking about, about tuning into the child's feelings, you know, and, and really like being curious behind the behaviors, understanding that a lot of behaviors are a stress response and are not within a child's control. That does not mean that we are deferring to the child, that we are always child led, that we should be held hostage to the child's emotions. This does not mean that we never say to our children or that we're going to do harm to them. If we say put your shoes on, like it's okay to give a child a command. It is, I think, and based on what I know from the science. So that's one way I think it's just gotten, you know, like where we're held hostage to the child, like, oh, you don't want to put your shoes on. Oh, you were doing something else. And it's really hard to stop doing something that's fun. And I know you really don't want to put them on. And then what I think some of this does is it stays with it. And then you're sitting there for 30 minutes having a reflective dialogue with your child about their feelings about putting their shoes on. That is never what I have recommended. Right. I can say, I think it's perfectly appropriate to say to our child, you're so disappointed about having to stop what you're doing and you don't want to put your shoes on. And it's time to put your shoes on. It's like, and then be upset and.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (20:09)

We can still leave and we don't have to sort through this right now. And you are not now a bad parent.

Dr. Dan Siegel (20:14)

Right. And if you. And that's the other things, like if you're. And then you can say it's okay if you're Sad about putting your shoes on and you can cry, and I'm right here with you while you cry as we're putting the shoes on their feet, Right? So heading out the door and heading out the door, and sometimes it might mean carrying your kid half under an arm with limbs flailing and the shoes in your other hand and your car keys in your teeth, and you know it. And that's the other thing that I think has been a misunderstanding. Besides thinking we have to be held hostage to the child's emotions, emotion, and defer to them and stay in these reflective dialogues, the other thing is that I think people have really misunderstood that if we say to our kid, oh, it's okay, or we say, put your shoes on, or. Or we don't stay completely calm all the time, that we're bad parents, none of that is true. And so we've just gotten really confused about what this is about. So in a way, Eliza, I kind of. Okay, so let's just get really clear. When we're talking about authoritative parenting, this is where it's not the two opposites of one dimension like we talked about. It's two separate dimensions. One is where we're really high on limits and boundaries and expectations and structure, and we're also really high on emotional responsiveness and attunement and connection. And really, the science for decades and decades and decades and decades still supports that, which is called authoritative parenting. What I kind of want to do is. And, you know, in the article Jessica Winter talks about how that is still the primary, kind of progressive, dominant approach to parenting. I want to kind of say there's a place between. So according to that kind of school of thought and that research, it is a lot of emotional attunement and emotional responsiveness. But in the. In the kind of typical way we think about authoritative, it does allow for positive and negative reinforcement and even punishment. So what I want to do is. Can we, like, coin a new term? I don't know what it is, but it's almost like the. The progressive. Progressive authoritative parenting. So what I want to say now is, yes, we want to be high on all those limits and boundaries, and we want to be high on emotional responsiveness. But it doesn't have to be with the old set of tools that. That we knew. Like, it doesn't mean you have to give timeouts. It doesn't mean that you have to give, you know. You know, put kids on restriction or take away toys. Like, you don't have to do those things. If you do those things you're probably not doing too much harm anyway. But I we have new and more science led tools to help us rethink what consequences are, what they could be, other ways of building skills. So it's almost like limits and boundaries that don't necessarily have to involve and I think shouldn't involve punishment. So we almost need a term that's sort of between this gentle parenting permissiveness and the old way we thought about authoritative parenting. It's almost like a 2.0 authoritative around the limits and demands thing where we rethink based on what we know more now from science about kids nervous systems and we know more about dependent development to rethink how we handle limits and boundaries. So that's kind of what I would advocate for, is sort of a authoritative 2.0 where we're rethinking what that means in terms of the limits and boundaries, how we reinforce them and how we think about ourselves as disciplinarians.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (23:33)

For those of you who haven't heard authority like the technical from the science terms permissive, authoritative and authoritarian and neglectful, we're skipping neglectful parenting style. But for those of you who haven't heard it, what Tina just explained is exactly sort of the, the gold standard for whatever that, whatever that means, that authoritative space of holding the limits, boundaries and the sensitivity. And then permissive is having lots of sensitivity and attunement, but not the other side of it. And the reverse with authoritarian is controlling because I said so limits and none of the sensitivity. And so I think that two of the things that you said, I mean the authoritative 2.0, I love that because it's true, we can still, you can still hold on to the very real. I think this really wild thing that calling any of this revolutionary is bizarre because it's actually held true for decades now that the attunement, sensitivity and connection is held up as highly as the boundaries and limit setting.

Dr. Dan Siegel (24:48)

It's not an or, it's a plus, it's a plus.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (24:51)

And yet we're still talking about basically that and naming it all sorts of different things. But when it gets misused and misinterpreted, it truly is just permissive because of that. And so I think the frustrated conversation is like enough of this, let's go to authoritarian. But really it's just grabbing hold of authoritative parenting in its true form, which is it does have both of those components. And we can of course reevaluate how we define setting limits and as you said, punishment and consequences and any of those things in the context of the toolkit being updated the same way kitchen tools are updated and with science. So I think that is like really what probably is hard for us when we're reading articles like that or hearing from people that they're. It feels like there's a tension, like enough of this. And it's really not, it's not so extreme. It's.

Dr. Liza Pressman (25:52)

It sort of is mimicking politics.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (25:54)

Like everything feel so damn extreme and most things are not so harmful or so amazing. And you're probably like you, you probably don't have as much control as you would like. I mean, we know you don't. So it almost feels like parenting is now politicized in that way.

Dr. Dan Siegel (26:15)

I love what you just said there. It is. It's like an extreme version. And I think the way you know that, like in the article it was saying, you know what gentle parenting does is it. It gives choices versus orders. Okay? And yes, strategy number one in the whole brainchild is connect and redirect. Okay? Yes, we want to emphasize choices and connection and all those things. It doesn't mean you can't give an order. Also, like, why are we saying it's this versus thing?

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (26:41)

Totally.

Dr. Dan Siegel (26:42)

It's all about what freaking works without doing harm, right? Like when you have a three year old and if you have the option to give a choice and your child responds well to the choice in that moment and you can avoid a tantrum, great, offer a choice. If you can't offer a choice, like, you know, I'm not going to give you a choice about whether or not you, you know, you have to have a shot at the pediatrician, like that's not a choice. Like you're doing this, you know, and I'm going to show up for you and be there with you and comfort you and all of those things. But you know, I've had parents say to me like, you know, I don't want to do a whole reflective dialogue and puppet show to get my kid to put their effing shoes on. And that is real. And that's what we need to get back to is a little bit more authentic, practical kind of stuff. These are things that guide us. But what is happening is that parents feel like if they give an order instead of giving a choice, or if they don't talk to their child about their feelings about every micro moment throughout the day, that they are not measuring up. And that is not true. Every kid is different, every developmental stage is different, every parent is different from moment to moment. We have to do what works and not measure ourselves by this funky extreme thing that we shouldn't even be holding ourselves to anyway. And you know what if you say to your kid, and that's the other thing too, is like, we think we have to be like calm and use this like therapist voice with our child every moment. Like, that's not authentic. That's robotic and frankly, weird. How about we just are like, you know, try to stay as regulated as we can. When we're not, we say to our kid, you know what? I wish I had done that differently. Will you forgive me? I'm sorry. Can I have a do over and you just move the heck on, Move along. This is not real. What people think they're supposed to be doing is not real.

Dr. Liza Pressman (28:32)

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Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (28:53)

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Dr. Liza Pressman (28:54)

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Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (29:39)

And how many of us, or is.

Dr. Liza Pressman (29:41)

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So there's just, there's just always going.

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Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (31:35)

There's no science to back up that being somehow that robotic and calm and saying all the right things and honoring every moment would be better. So it's not even real as to your point, like there's, there's a made up idea that that somehow is. Has ever been a recommendation in the literature, ever in the history of time. But of course on balance you want to figure out ways to stay regulated and, and of course you're a human who's going to get dysregulated and then you make repairs and, and this is life. We've all been in many relationships and friendships and we know how humans are. So I don't know how it came to be that parents have expected that of themselves or that anybody has translated the science in a way that wouldn't be based in the reality of being a person like that that feels.

Dr. Liza Pressman (32:28)

I almost felt like, I guess part.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (32:30)

Of why it's important to talk about is also we can't do the job that we do in, in supporting parents if the risk is that it is coming across as the wrong. Is that kind of information right?

Dr. Dan Siegel (32:46)

Like yeah, I mean it's honestly like I'm just gonna be really real. Cause that's how you and I do. I feel really annoyed lots of times. Like let me give a really specific example. I'll say to a parent, look, if you want cooperation from your kid, your young kid, if you are playful in going about doing it, you're probably gonna get a lot more cooperation without the battles. So like for example, your kid doesn't want to get into the car seat and you're like, oh please don't sit in your car seat today because my imaginary friend is sitting there and if you sit on him he's going to scream and have to do that weird dance, like. And you. So you come up with something silly or playful.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (33:20)

Silly.

Dr. Dan Siegel (33:20)

You're just silly playful. You know, or like one of the examples we have in the whole brain child is. Or maybe it was in no drama. Was like my kid was having a total tantrum because he wanted me to give him a bath.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (33:30)

So my husband no drama discipline, which is an incredible book.

Dr. Dan Siegel (33:33)

So one of my kids was having a meltdown because he wanted me to give him a bath. And I was not available. Available. So my husband started pretending to be me. Right. Like that silliness. That's playfulness. And they were cracking up in it. And so you get cooperation that way. So someone hears me talk about use playful parenting as a way to elicit cooperation. Okay, so that's the advice I'm giving now. Someone's gonna hear that and feel like they have to do a puppet show and be playful for every interaction. And that is not what I'm saying. And honestly, I find it really annoying. These are your work. Yeah. And it's tips and tools to try. And then you know what, the next night you're like, you need to brush your teeth and I'm too tired to have the battle with you, so do it. You know, and that's fine too. Like. And I'll say too, I have two other thoughts about this. One is, I think some of this in a way is like, okay, let me give this disclaimer. Of course, anyone who knows my work knows that my, my life's work is dedicated to the idea that what we do as parents matters. Okay. So let me just be really clear about that. I also want to say that we are not the end all, be all for every single thing that our child turns out to be. So I think in a way it's kind of arrogant. Like I feel like we do this fear based parenting. Like, oh, if I, you know, if I let my kids sleep in the bed with me tonight, they're always going to be in the bed. No, that's not true. That's fear based parenting. And at some point, or like, let me see. Like we, we are not the only ones influencing how they turn out. Like, right.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (35:02)

We don't get credit if they're rock stars or if they're, you know, disasters. That is a level of arrogance. That's completely. Or a level of self something narcissism.

Dr. Dan Siegel (35:14)

We're not that important. I mean, we're, we're, we're the most important, but we're not that important that we are everything so at some point, you know, your 8 year old or whatever says, oh, you know, something about sleeping in their mom's bed and their peers are gonna gasp and then they're gonna be like, oh, okay, I don't want to do that anymore. Like their peers. So like, I had a mom come to me, her kindergartner. Her kid was about to start kindergarten and she was like a chronic nose picker. And so the mom was like, you know, I've done everything. I've put, you know, hot sauce on her fingers. I've like, I've done everything. She still picks her nose and she's gonna get made fun of and she's gonna be bullied. And so this mom had a lot anxieties about her social milieu going into kindergartner as a chronic nose picker. And I was like, look, you've done everything you can do. Just trust the process, right? So her daughter goes to kindergarten, picks her nose. The first week, the kids are like, ew. And run away from her. Guess what? She's still picked at home, but not at school. Their peers socialize them. There's going to be some teacher or friend's parent or grandparent or someone along the way that's going to be like, why are you doing that? That's so weird. Or you smell, you need to start taking showers. Like, it's not all on us. I think that's important to know.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (36:26)

But then you're afraid. Like, I think it's so hard to say anything because parents are the number one environmental influence on child development.

Dr. Dan Siegel (36:37)

A hundred percent.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (36:39)

That feels really big. But then in the same, same message, parents are not the only influence on their children.

Dr. Dan Siegel (36:48)

We need to hold that complexity.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (36:51)

We both have to be, we have to be able to have these conversations and have complexity. And when people want an extreme, it's much sexier and it definitely gets more visibility. But the reality is, is most of the science isn't that sexy to talk about because it's not that extreme. And so in this case, we have, we have an influence, we have a lot of influence. And we also don't have all that much influence. We have to be comfortable with both of those things. Exactly. And, and so that's why it's also feels like there is this sense, there's a pressure for parents to, to be like, I don't, I, I don't care. There's all this parenting nonsense. It's too much. Let's go with, let's just let go of all of it to the extreme. Of being so panicked and feeling so, so distressed because you didn't do the exact right thing or because your mom said, you know, praised your child for how they look instead of the process that they were doing with their puzzles or whatever it is that is, you know, capturing your self consciousness. But that space between also not super sexy is. We gotta, we got. Of course we have to care and have intention and hopefully make decisions with our thinking brains in how we respond to our kids. And also there are moments when we're just like, I don't care. Just do your thing. Like, that has to be okay.

Dr. Dan Siegel (38:15)

Yeah. And I, you know, I'm. I'm not. I know it sounded like I'm knocking. Gentle parenting. I'm a big fan of gentle parenting. You know, in that article they talked about Mona Delahook's new book, which I adore. I love that book so much. And they're, you know, mindful parenting. Yes. Respectful parenting. Yes. Intentional parenting. Yes. I'm a fan of all of it. But what I'm saying is, let's not go to this extreme. Like, let me give a really specific example. There's no one way. So let's say people like, here's a question I get all the time, okay. What do you do if your kid's really disrespectful to you? How do you handle that in the moment? Right? So my kid's like, I hate you. You're so stupid. And they're, they're coming at me and attacking me. You know what? There are lots of good ways to respond to that. One way is to say, here's the gentle parenting way, which is to say, okay, my child is having a stress response. They are not yet. Their brain is not yet fully developed, and they don't yet have the same emotional breaks. So I'm going to co regulate. And I'm a big fan of this response. You've heard me talk about it a million times across my lifespan or my career. So in that moment, the way I might respond from that approach is to say, oh, buddy, I can see you're having such a hard time right now. You're so angry. How can I help? What do you need? And then I'm going to soothe and comfort and connect in that moment. Unless my kid says, leave me alone. Don't talk to me. I don't want. Then I'm going to respect that. Right? So there's all the. A million iterations of this version, right? And then after my child is regulated again and I've comforted him and calmed him down. Then I'm going to go back and say, hey, the way you talked to me earlier, that didn't feel good. We talk about that and how can you make things right with me? And what could you do next time you feel it's okay to feel angry, but it's not okay to talk to me that way. So what could you. Okay, so we could do that. That's the gentle parenting approach. Here's another way I could handle it. My kid's coming at me. I hate you. You're so stupid. Attacking. Attacking. I can say, I can see that you're having a really hard time right now, but I don't let anybody talk to me that way. So either we can have a conversation now where you're speaking to me respectfully, or if you need a little bit of time to calm down, then let's pause and have the conversation later. Okay? So I'm totally setting a boundary. You cannot talk to me that way. And I'm going to step away even right? I'm going to say, I'll come back and check with you when you're ready to do this. I think that's a beautiful response too. And you know what I'm going to call it in the moment, or here's another response. You can't talk to me like that. Which is funny because he just did. He totally can. You can't talk to me like that. You know. You know, you don't know what I do for you around here. And you just start going and you attack back. Okay, so that may happen also. Then if that happens, then later I'm gonna go back and be like, you know what? I wish I had handled that differently. I'm really sorry. I could tell you were having a hard time and I got reactive and I wish I had been more, you know, I wish I had handled that differently. So that's perfectly fine, too. We're gonna do 16 versions of that.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (41:07)

You could also probably even if you.

Dr. Liza Pressman (41:10)

Have it in you.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (41:12)

I remember doing this as a child, which is just what is making me think of this.

Dr. Dan Siegel (41:16)

But.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (41:16)

But bring humor in. Like, if it's the right kid and the right family, this may be a very family specific thing. But if your child comes in and is like, I hate you, you're the worst person in the world to say, you know, like, I. I mean, really? Or is that what is. Is that what's happening here?

Dr. Dan Siegel (41:34)

Like, I'm the worst? Like, I'm number one on your worst list. Yeah.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (41:37)

Like, is. Am I worse? Than you know, and for some kids it'll piss them off more. You don't do that with the those kids for other kids, they'll laugh because they'll see that even coming at you. It didn't throw you off and you're not, your day is not ruined. And you get that they're having a crappy time and they just needed to get their out. So I think it's about accepting that there are many ways to to. There are many tools to use, but none of the, the examples you gave didn't set a boundary. Even the gentle parenting and quotes 1. Which is why I think, you know, we use that article just as a, as a place to. Yeah. To start the conversation. But I've been asked about like how to, you know, explain gentle parenting or define gentle parenting. And I'm like, there's no official definition.

Dr. Dan Siegel (42:26)

No.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (42:26)

You could define it as authoritative or you could define it as permissive. It's, it's in the eye of the.

Dr. Dan Siegel (42:31)

Exactly.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (42:32)

Parents who is parenting. So same with mindful. Like what does mindful parenting mean? It just means whatever the hell you want it to mean. It means that you are available and present. That, that says nothing about boundaries except for if you are available and present, you can notice that there's a boundary that needs to be set. So I think part of the problem is also that the definitions just like if you're just taking it based on one person's, you know, I'm a gentle parenting expert. Okay. But there is no expertise to be had in gentle parenting. It is a non existent science.

Dr. Dan Siegel (43:08)

Yeah. And you can't say like you're meeting that, like to meet that criteria, you can never say these five things and you must do it this, you, you have to breastfeed. You can't sleep train. You never use a timeout. Like, and I'm not a fan of sleep training or timeouts in most cases. I mean almost all cases. But that doesn't mean that I think someone who chooses to do those things is not a gentle parent. You know what I mean? Like we've just gotten so, like you said extreme.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (43:36)

One of my children, we, you know, this one, I sleep trained and when I did not, I did sleep train in, in in the sense that I influenced her sleep. Well, it's totally right out because sleep.

Dr. Liza Pressman (43:47)

Training has different meanings.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (43:48)

Like one of my kids, I was like, I think you can handle this and I'm tired right now. And the other one, I was just like, this isn't going to work for you. So I Do think that that's the other thing is that it's arbitrary, these definitions. Totally. That's why I think we both feel very much like move toward the science because then these other things are. They're just noise. It's just noise in the space of parenting. That is not science based. And the science allows for, you know, coming back to the center of the story, which is it's not that polarizing.

Dr. Liza Pressman (44:24)

And it's not that extreme.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (44:26)

It's so much more about how you as the parent feel comfortable parenting given the way you were raised and given what your needs are and what your child's needs are. I don't.

Dr. Liza Pressman (44:39)

I.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (44:39)

So I think that's true too is.

Dr. Liza Pressman (44:41)

Like why is jet.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (44:42)

Gentle parenting is neither good nor bad. It's just not.

Dr. Liza Pressman (44:45)

It's not a specific thing.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (44:46)

Thing to criticize or compliment. I think that might have been also my one question because I did think that article was great at acknowledging that we have taken certain. The culturally, we've taken some extremes in parenting. But even naming it as mindful, gentle, respectful, it's like all made up. Like, I don't even understand that. I, I think you could, you, you could be you. We could call it, we could give it a new name. It's, it's, it's all nonsense. That's kind of how I feel. But I don't know how to. I don't know what that means other than don't cling to the, the parenting as a religion or a title of a type of parenting. You're just being a parent.

Dr. Dan Siegel (45:31)

Well, and I think, I think, you know, obviously experts like us, we really do need to be as precise as we can. And actually, like I, I miss when I said their sleep train. I should have said cry it out because sleep training I'm a huge fan of and you know, whatever. I, so I, so I wasn't precise with my language there. But then someone might hear that and think that they, you know, can't do anything to influence their like. So, so what I'm saying to you is listen to the experts. And I, you know, this is a big theme in my work as well. And I know yours too. Like, trust your instincts, trust your baby, trust your child. Trust development have some influence. But we not. We don't have to be so precious about every single definition or meaning. Like take things in context for your particular child and your particular, you know, you. I think, I think you're your particular. You. Whatever. Okay. There's a book title. I have no idea what the book would be about. But I think, you know, and this is. This could. We could do a whole other podcast on this. In fact, I hope we do talk about what we are absolutely, absolutely certain about. Like, what are the things that would be our, like, crucial. Like, we could play, like, ping pong or volleyball here, where we could just go back and forth. And I bet there would only be. There'd probably be less than five things that you and I, or maybe, you know, somewhere around there that we feel 100. Listen to what I'm saying. I'm absolutely certain about this and everything else. Whatever. Do your.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (46:50)

You know, we're doing that next month.

Dr. Dan Siegel (46:51)

Okay. For sure. But that is important because of what you said, like, with your kid, like, throwing in humor. Okay, so I'm gonna tell something kind of. I don't know, I might be judged for this, but this is all about being real, right? So I have these three boys, and they're all actually hilarious people. They're very funny, great senses of humor. And my middle one has. You know, I have this book that I wrote with Dan Siegel called no Drama Discipline, and he has his own manuscript going called Full Drama Discipline. I may have mentioned this before, and anytime I do or say something that he thinks is really bad parenting, it goes in the middle manuscript. Right?

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (47:26)

So.

Dr. Dan Siegel (47:26)

But sometimes it's like, here's the deal is, like, my kids know they cannot lose my love, that I will show up my very best for them at any point, especially when they're having a hard time that I've got them, they are completely safe, you know, like. Like some basics. Right? So that in the moment when my kid does or says something kind of shitty, and I'm like, you're the worst. Like, what in the. Like, what in the hell? Like, you're the worst worst. And then my kid will look at me with this, like, look on his face because he knows what he did was terrible. And he'll be like, full drama discipline. But, like, in the moment, like, if someone heard me say to my kid, you're the worst. Like, that would sound so terrible.

Dr. Liza Pressman (48:09)

Tina, my.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (48:10)

I have the same like. Like, my daughter does the same thing where she's like, can I just videotape. To be clear, you just said, you know, basically, you're the worst. And I'm. She's like, I thought we do. We do the behavior, not the person, because it's if it. And I'm like, can it now.

Dr. Dan Siegel (48:29)

See? And I wouldn't have said that to my kid when he was three. Right? Like, I'm saying a 15 year old. A 15 year old, yeah. Who's just done something so ridiculous that he's even laughing at himself. Right? Yeah. And. And he, like, he knows that there's humor in that and that I don't think he's the worst. He knows I think he's the absolute best. But I think, you know, someone can hear that and say, oh my God, you know, and so it's all in the context of the relationship we have with our child. And that's a moment of humor for us. Right. And like, well, I'll look at like something like, my kid has just gotten ice out of the ice maker and there's ice all over the floor. And I look at him and I'm like, seriously, you're the worst. And he'll be like, like, you know, they just. And then they give me a hard time. Obviously. I'm just, I'm being right.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (49:20)

And you're not putting that as a strategy in your book, but there's an understanding, like, if your children have this foundation of knowing that the real and the relationship is intact, you get to make jokes that everything isn't so precious. That's the, that's the wonderful part about attunement and relationships and connection is that it allows for room to be ridiculous and that nobody misunderstands it as something that now, you know. Imagine if everybody was so unhinged by the ice going on the floor and then you're like, ugh, you're the worst. It's not said with disdain. And like your relationship is now in distress. It's just.

Dr. Dan Siegel (50:03)

It doesn't even have meaning. It doesn't mean anything.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (50:05)

Yeah, there's an unspoken, I love you so much. Get that ice off the floor, you shithead. Like, there's no, there's nothing.

Dr. Liza Pressman (50:13)

But you can't, you know, of course.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (50:15)

You can't have that nuance with a three year old. You wouldn't say that to a three year old, but you've earned it in your building of your relationship over time.

Dr. Liza Pressman (50:23)

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Dr. Dan Siegel (53:27)

I want parents to hear this because you know, one of the things that the article pointed out is that this kind of way of thinking that we have to be a hundred percent fully like perfecty perfect all the time is so damaging because no one can live up to that. So then we sit in this kind of shame and judgment of ourselves. And that's not even like all the if we're doing. If we're over hyper parenting anyway, it's not even good for our kids in the first place. But beyond that, like, I think she. What she said in the article that I think is really, I feel really like, I really resonate with what I'm hearing from my audience is there's so much then fear of making a misstep. Like, she, she talks about how if you just say to your kid, good job, and you're not specific enough with your praise, right. You're like, oh my God, they're going to be a drug addict now. Because I said good job, like, and I do. I think there's, there's that kind of importance we're giving to these micro moments that's not helpful. And so if we say to your kid, oh, you're fine, you're okay, or we say, you know, like, good job, or we aren't having a reflective dialogue about putting the shoes on for the length of time that the child wants to process the emotion. When you're late to the doctor's office like that you're doing something wrong. And so I tell that story. And to say that you're not going to mess your kid up if you say good job, like, obviously, yes, we know that the science says be aware.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (54:56)

That more specific is better on Good Day. If you're in a great mood and you remember that's the only reason to know this information. But it's not to take those moments that are perfectly natural where you're just. It's this thing that. Where you're going to say good job instead of good job tying your shoe with your left hand. Everybody's going to be okay.

Dr. Dan Siegel (55:16)

Right? And everybody's going to be okay.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (55:19)

It's just an awareness of. I mean, that there has to be. I. I want us to be able to impart information without it being taken in this way. That's so precious. And so the only. I mean, I guess it's also emphasizing you throw away 80% of that. You know, you just, you take that information in and also almost force yourself to take. To have intentional moments of going, I don't care, I don't care. But I'm just gonna do what I'm gonna do because that's also part of the exercise is just like getting comfortable, blowing it.

Dr. Dan Siegel (55:53)

Yeah. And I just, I think what I'm worried about is parents lying in bed at night not able to fall asleep because they're like, oh, I said good job. And I wasn't specific enough in my praise. Right. Like that is, those are the little, like those are the little things. And I think, you know, sometimes experts have advice that is like prescriptive, that should be followed. But most of the time it's more impressionistic. And think about your child and your capacity. And you know, if you say to your kid like, look, I don't, I don't have it in me to read stories tonight. You just need to go to bed on your own tonight. That does not mean your child is not going to excel academically next year. Like, it's fine, it's just, let's take the pressure off. And I don't want, honestly, if we're lying in bed at night thinking about all the things we didn't measure up to that are all little things, we're forgetting about the things that matter most. And honestly we're probably dealing with kind of some neurotic anxiety that's going to keep us from really being able to connect in a more present way. Like it's just, it's always, it's just back to that. Build the relationship with your child, do your best. And there's no rule book where there are specific definitions. You have to check boxes every day. Oh, was my phrase specific enough? Yes, specific phrase. The science tells us it's good. Much better than just generic. Great.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (57:18)

Practice it sometime.

Dr. Dan Siegel (57:19)

Try it, try, do it sometimes. Do it when you can. And like I think about, I one time said like if you send your kid to lunch where everything in the lunchbox isn't like non GMO organic, non dye cut into woodland creature shapes, like your kid's gonna be fine, I promise you. Like, just do like same idea actually.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (57:41)

Right on balance you, you have, you try to have hormone free milk. There are gonna be times when you're out and there's gonna, that is not, I don't know if that's a good example. But yeah, we, we have, we have gotten ourselves tied into something. Such knots. But information is there to be helpful, it's not there to be harmful. I really love the takeaway of. I wonder if we can come up with a few takeaways from the conversation today. And obviously this is, Tina and I are going to have our follow up conversation next month and maybe we can get some feedback from people about what they want to hear about more specifically. But I wonder if there are some takeaways today because we want to continue to provide guidance and support and science but not at the expense of being confident as a parent or enjoying it. Yeah, so I, I remember when I was doing When I first started working with parents in groups, then they would, they would see me with their babies, let's say, and just because I was in New York City and you bump into people and they would apologize for something like, I'm so sorry, he doesn't usually have a pacifier in his mouth during, you know, during the day. I don't know, some. Something so ridiculous. And I realized that was a. It was an early indicator that somehow I was delivering information in the wrong way. If the, if the feeling from the parent was to apologize to me. And that was a really big lesson because there was something about the delivery that went wrong. It was not that the parent was doing something wrong.

Dr. Dan Siegel (59:42)

Yeah, I think I'm still learning. I'm still learning how to advise based on the science without communicating that that's what I expect any human to do 100% of the time with preciousness for every moment. And if they don't, they're a failure. So I think that's. That's a great.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (60:00)

That's a great book title too.

Dr. Dan Siegel (60:02)

That's what I said.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (60:03)

That's a great book title too.

Dr. Dan Siegel (60:06)

That was a long one, but again.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (60:07)

It was a really, really long sentence. That is every. But that captures everything because it is so many. It's like it's a big run on sentence, this getting, you know, getting everything across and also not feeling like it's got to be everything at all times because it doesn't. And if it did, it would be too much anyway.

Dr. Dan Siegel (60:28)

I mean. Yeah, so maybe that's a big takeaway. Is much of the time.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (60:34)

Much of the time.

Dr. Dan Siegel (60:35)

Much of the time. Most of the time.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (60:36)

What can you do that's more than 50% of the time.

Dr. Dan Siegel (60:39)

Yeah. I mean, just like is your child's main experience with you.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (60:43)

Yeah.

Dr. Dan Siegel (60:43)

You know, great. That's great.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (60:46)

So that's the good question to, to take away is, is this.

Dr. Liza Pressman (60:50)

Is this the main experience? And then the rest is noise and.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (60:54)

Rounding errors and doesn't matter. And let it go so hard. Like let that extra go so hard that you don't question yourself anymore. Because on balance, you know, the majority of the time, you know that things are going well.

Dr. Dan Siegel (61:15)

I think people too. Yeah, I love that. And I think, you know, I think that's the idea of not being so extreme. Extreme parenting is an extreme sport anyway. Like, let's not be extreme in all of these, you know, ways of thinking. It has to be so intense and all the time. And I think the other thing I would love for people to know is that you and I have really different, let me say it this way. Parenting experts who are trained like you and I are, we have really different audiences. I don't mean different. You and I have different audiences. I mean we have some parents who listen to us.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (61:50)

Right, right.

Dr. Dan Siegel (61:50)

Are in this more permissive kind of thing and need to be moved more toward set boundaries, set limits, enforce the limits. Right. And then we have other parents who listen to us, who are in. Who are. So we've got the kind of permissive parents that are listening to us, but we also have the authoritarian parents who are listening to us. And there's still this huge gap where we have parents who are listening to us, we hope, who are listening to us, who are still into like the, you know, don't ask any questions, children should be seen and not heard punitive. And still a lot of our schools and our ways of thinking about kids behavior are way outdated. And that's where a lot of my work has been, is to push against that and to say, you know, children like if they're having a stress response and it's, you know, Ross Green talks about a can't versus a won't. Like we need to be much more curious. Curious and much more emotionally available and do a lot more co regulation. Like that's what I often emphasize. But when I'm emphasizing that, I 100% believe it and the science backs me on this. But if that's in response to school systems and parents who are still very authoritarian. And so when we say that to say no, it's a stress response. Your child needs you to co regulate them and behaviors can communication. And we want to be respectful of children and their bodies and understand their nervous system. Yes, yes, all of that. But what happens then is a permissive parent hears that and takes it to the total extreme.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (63:22)

That's such a great point because you always. We have to in our work, when it's more specifically with an IND individual family, you have to target your conversation in the direction that is most useful for that particular family. But when you're talking to large groups, you have to. And the takeaway here is figure out where you, what direction you bend in. And so what's going to help support you is going to be looking at the other side of it in a different kind of way. Yeah, but if you already bend in a, if boundary setting is just so challenging for, for you, you probably have to stop listening to the nervous system conversations and the connections because it's gonna fuck with your head. Excuse my language, but it's gonna mess with your head and you're gonna think, oh God, I think I'm messing with my kid right now because I just told them they have to get their shoes on. And I didn't really think about how they might feel if there are shoes on their feet when they're, when it's, you know, time for school, when they really wanted freedom of their toes. Like you're not the right audience. The conversation about the nervous system.

Dr. Dan Siegel (64:26)

Yeah.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (64:27)

You really need to feel a little bit less, you know, and, and on the other side of it, if, if you bend in the direction of controlling and because I said so, it's maybe not great to talk so much about.

Dr. Liza Pressman (64:40)

How important.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (64:43)

Structure and boundaries and limit setting right is because you might forget the other side of it. So part of. You're totally right and it's such a good point. In our work day to day, we have the luxury of making that choice in the conversation. But in the work, in the larger world where we're having a conversation don't. With each other, but we don't know who's listening.

Dr. Liza Pressman (65:08)

It's going to be up to the.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (65:09)

Listener to decide who. Who am I in this story or today in the mood that I'm in today?

Dr. Dan Siegel (65:15)

Yeah.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (65:16)

When I'm getting this information so that you can get out of it what you're meant to get out of it and not. Not have yourself turned around over it.

Dr. Dan Siegel (65:26)

I mean it's like what you said about politics, it's like really polarizing. And I think those are, we still are very polarized in these two, in these two ways. And so I think, you know, that's a big takeaway is to say this is not revolutionary science. This is decades and decades and decades old science that says we need to be high in emotional responsiveness, gentleness, respectfulness, reflective dialogues, co regulation. And we want to be really high in boundaries and limits and structure. It's. We want both. And again, I think our country still sees that it's one or the other and it's not. It's not, it's not, it's not. And so I think that's what happens is our listeners come in with an either or mentality. And I think that's really good advice for all of us. Like if you bend one direction, it's important to listen to people that might help you with your growth edge and being high in both.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (66:20)

I'm so excited to have this conversation with you and also to keep having conversations with you. I love you so much.

Dr. Dan Siegel (66:26)

I love you so much. Yes. And it's so fun. You know, you and I would have had this conversation over appetizers, but I'm glad we got to have it with your audience, which is so awesome. I love your work so much. I'm such a big fan, and we should be listening to lots and of lots, lots of voices. You know, I think it's really important, especially the. The experts that you trust. Listen to them, gather information, and then do what's right for you and your kids in that moment. And if you don't do it well, do it better the next time and make a repair.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson (67:07)

Please note that this episode may contain.

Dr. Liza Pressman (67:08)

Paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.