Navigating Moral Differences: How to Help Guide Your Child’s Moral Compass without Moral Righteousness with Professor Kurt Gray

Summary

Raising Good Humans: Navigating Moral Differences with Professor Kurt Gray

Episode Title: Navigating Moral Differences: How to Help Guide Your Child’s Moral Compass without Moral Righteousness
Host: Dr. Aliza Pressman
Guest: Professor Kurt Gray
Release Date: January 3, 2025

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode of Raising Good Humans, Dr. Aliza Pressman welcomes Professor Kurt Gray, a renowned developmental psychologist and professor at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. Professor Gray specializes in understanding people's deepest beliefs and their societal impacts. Together, they delve into the complexities of guiding children’s moral compasses amidst differing moral viewpoints without fostering moral righteousness.

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Understanding Moral Judgments and Perceptions of Harm

Professor Gray begins by elucidating the foundation of his research: moral judgments stem from perceptions of harm. He explains that our moral reactions, whether outrage or condemnation, arise from a desire to protect ourselves and vulnerable individuals from perceived threats or harm (06:41).

Key Insights:

• Uniform Moral Foundations: Despite apparent differences, humans share a similar moral framework focused on preventing harm.
• Conflict Arises from Differing Perceptions: Disagreements occur when individuals have varying interpretations of what constitutes harm, leading to moral conflicts even among well-meaning individuals.

Professor Kurt Gray (01:19): "We all have the same moral mind. Our moral judgments stem from feeling threatened or vulnerable to harm."

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Parenting Amid Moral Differences

Dr. Pressman and Professor Gray discuss the challenges parents face in instilling family values while respecting differing beliefs in broader society. They emphasize the importance of teaching children to hold personal convictions yet respect others' differing viewpoints.

Key Strategies:

• Consistency in Values: Maintaining consistent family values while acknowledging that others may hold different, yet valid, perspectives.
• Avoiding Moral Superiority: Encouraging children to understand that differing beliefs do not equate to others being bad people.

Professor Kurt Gray (02:23): "You can't get around these kind of convictions when it comes to morality. But understanding where someone is coming from helps maintain mutual respect."

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Practical Approaches: The CIV Framework

Professor Gray introduces a practical framework he calls CIV—Connect, Invite, Validate—designed to facilitate civil and meaningful conversations about morality and differing beliefs.

1. Connect (18:58)

   • Build Human Connections: Start conversations by connecting on a personal level rather than diving directly into moral or political topics.
   • Example: Instead of saying, "What do you think about morality?" begin with, "How was your day?" to establish rapport.

2. Invite (18:58)

   • Encourage Sharing: Invite others to share their beliefs and values in a non-confrontational manner.
   • Example: "I noticed you have strong feelings about this topic. Could you share more about why you feel that way?"

3. Validate (18:58)

   • Acknowledge Perspectives: Validate the other person's feelings and viewpoints without necessarily agreeing.
   • Example: "I appreciate you sharing that. I understand why you feel that way based on your experiences."

Professor Kurt Gray (19:20): "Connect, Invite, Validate—these are the keys to having respectful and meaningful conversations about morality."

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Handling Moral Conflicts with Children

The discussion shifts to practical scenarios involving children, such as disagreements at school or differing behaviors within families. Professor Gray provides strategies for parents to address these situations without imposing moral superiority.

Key Techniques:

• Calm Discussions: Address moral issues when emotions are not heightened to ensure constructive dialogue.
• Explaining Harm Differently: Communicate why certain behaviors are considered harmful from the family’s perspective while acknowledging that others may see it differently.
• Separating Behavior from Person: Teach children to view actions as separate from the individual's inherent worth.

Professor Kurt Gray (21:06): "We strive to prevent as much harm and suffering in the world as we can. A good human is someone who understands and respects the mental states and emotions of others."

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Promoting Empathy and Understanding

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on developing empathy and theory of mind in children, enabling them to appreciate different perspectives without undermining their own moral convictions.

Key Points:

• Personal Stories Over Statistics: Encourage the use of personal anecdotes to foster understanding rather than relying solely on factual data, which may not resonate emotionally.
• Humanizing Others: Help children see the human behind differing beliefs, which can soften rigid stances and promote empathy.
• Moral Humility: Instill a sense of humility in moral discussions, allowing children to recognize that they can learn from others even when they disagree.

Professor Kurt Gray (35:53): "Stories are powerful. When we share personal experiences, it helps others understand where we're coming from, fostering empathy and reducing polarization."

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Defining a "Good Human"

Towards the end of the episode, Professor Gray and Dr. Pressman tackle the subjective nature of defining what constitutes a "good human." Gray offers his perspective, emphasizing the importance of preventing harm and understanding others' mental states.

Professor Gray’s Definition:

• Preventing Harm: A good human strives to minimize suffering and protect others.
• Understanding Others: Possesses the ability to appreciate and respect others' thoughts, feelings, and perspectives.

Professor Kurt Gray (43:41): "A good human is someone who can appreciate the mental states and the emotions and feelings of someone else and really try to respect whether they're suffering and try to prevent that."

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Conclusion and Optimism for the Future

The episode concludes on an optimistic note, highlighting that younger generations are increasingly capable of engaging in meaningful and empathetic conversations about morality. Professor Gray expresses hope that by teaching these skills early, parents can raise children who contribute positively to a less polarized society.

Professor Kurt Gray (43:05): "Our young people have better conversations than the older folks. They’re willing to listen, and they’re working to understand people better."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Professor Kurt Gray (01:19): "We all have the same moral mind. Our moral judgments stem from feeling threatened or vulnerable to harm."
• Professor Kurt Gray (02:23): "You can't get around these kind of convictions when it comes to morality. But understanding where someone is coming from helps maintain mutual respect."
• Professor Kurt Gray (21:06): "We strive to prevent as much harm and suffering in the world as we can. A good human is someone who understands and respects the mental states and emotions of others."
• Professor Kurt Gray (35:53): "Stories are powerful. When we share personal experiences, it helps others understand where we're coming from, fostering empathy and reducing polarization."
• Professor Kurt Gray (43:41): "A good human is someone who can appreciate the mental states and the emotions and feelings of someone else and really try to respect whether they're suffering and try to prevent that."

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Raising Good Humans offers valuable insights into navigating moral differences in parenting. By emphasizing empathy, understanding, and respectful dialogue, Dr. Pressman and Professor Gray provide parents with effective tools to guide their children’s moral development in a polarized world.

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Please note that this summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections as per the episode guidelines.

Transcript

[Kurt Gray]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Welcome to Raising Good humans. I am Dr. Eliza Pressman and I am wishing you a happy, happy new year. Welcome to 2025.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

I'm so excited to share this episode with you with Professor Kurt Gray. He is a professor at the University.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Of North Carolina Chapel, Hillary. And his expertise is in how to study people's deepest beliefs and why they matter for society organizations. And I thought, how cool would this research be if we could translate the.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Science of moral understanding into raising our kids with an understanding of their belief.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Systems, your family values, and also the.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Capacity to understand that other people may not share those.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

And that doesn't, doesn't make them bad people.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

It's so complicated.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

So I really wanted his help and.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

He is so spectacularly skilled at talking about this.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

And he has a groundbreaking new book.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Out called Outraged, and it showcases the latest science to demonstrate that we all.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

Have the same moral mind. And our moral judgments stem from feeling threatened or vulnerable to harm. And we care about protecting ourselves and we care about protecting vulnerable people. And so when we have a different perception of harm is when we get into trouble. I really love this episode. I think it's great for when you're.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Thinking about talking to your kids about.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

What happened at school on a particular day or a family that has different.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Rules than you do or bigger topics.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

So if you enjoy this episode, please write a little review on Apple Podcasts so it gets more out in the Apple algorithm. And of course, if you have time to just do a quick five star rating and as always, you can reach me on Instagram at Raising Good Humans podcast with questions that I can answer on substack or on social media, lots of stuff. And have a wonderful day.

[Kurt Gray]

I'm, like, trying to teach my kids to hold fast to their convictions, but also respect other people's convictions and, you know, like, don't yuck my yum. And you know, we're like, yeah, it's okay if you like broccoli, but now if you know and your friend doesn't, but what do you do when it's about, like, morality? Like, we're trying to teach our kids the right way. And so I feel like it's a really hard question as a parent to think about, like, no, this is the right way, but other people who don't believe the same as you are still good people, you know?

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Yes, I, I actually, let's dive right into that and tell me what your research tells us, and then we can think about translating that to language that we can use with our kids. Because you're right. First of all, it's such, like, it's such a huge issue right now, clearly. And also, it impacts us daily, whether it's trying to help our kids understand, like, yes, this is a value in our household. No, it's not a value in that household, but we're not, like, better than. And also, these values are super important to us, so please hold true to them. Like, what a hard concept to explain. Whether it's the kind of food that you're eating or whether you watch TV during meals or. I don't know why I'm thinking of these things, or what your alcohol policy is or who you're voting for or what a teacher said in class. So I think we could all use your thoughts on this.

[Kurt Gray]

Yeah, I mean, to be honest, there's not a ton of research on this particular thing, and it's something that I struggle with as a parent almost every day. Right. Like, this is, as you say, this is the. This is the right way to do things, but just because people do it the wrong way, they're not wrong people.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Less than people.

[Kurt Gray]

Yeah, exactly. And so, yeah, you're trying to teach your kid a paradox. And everything I know about parenting is, like, be consistent. And yet this is the thing. We're like, well, this is how good people do it, and we're good people, but also they do different, and they're. But they're not bad people. And so I think it really goes back to this idea of. Of, like, you know, respect versus your convictions. And it's a fine line. But I think, you know, democracy America is founded on this idea of, like, we have a pluralistic democracy. Right. And everyone's better off for different opinions, but we really need to hold fast to those opinions. And so that's kind of what I try to teach my kids. And I think that's what my research is about, too. Right. It's. It's less about persuading people and more about, like, respecting their opinion and ultimately understanding where they're coming from and what they're thinking. And that's kind of what my research focuses on and what I try to get my kids to understand as well.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

So can you tell us all about your research? And then I think, like you said, there is no way that we could really study this so directly in kids and in parenting. But I do think that we can try to translate how, you know, like, what the research shows so that we can take some of those kernels and interpret them as we will in Our everyday parenting. But one thing that I know for sure is that if we don't figure this out, we just, like, keep going down this path of polarization that's just not landing well with so many of us. Like, I don't really know that many people that are like, no, this is great. This is a great feeling that people are so certain of their rightness that it's turning into, you know, other people are bad. And something that you said and that you research that really matters so much is like, this isn't about persuasion. This is about deep understanding. And when you can cultivate a deep understanding, other people can feel seen, you can have respect, and just society at large is going to be in a better place. So since we can't totally change society, I thought let's translate it to our kids and least do a little part in, in those interactions. But first, after I just spent too long saying that, can you talk about your research so we can begin to unpack this?

[Kurt Gray]

Sure, yeah. What my research focuses on is what underlies our moral judgments, what underlies our feelings of right and wrong. And the kind of short story is that perceptions of harm are what drive our morality. And so we get outraged, we get upset. We condemn behaviors and people that we think are causing harm. And so this is why we all agree, let's say that child abuse is wrong. The harm there is very clear. You know, kids are vulnerable. They need protecting. And so this is why left, right, it doesn't matter. We get upset about that. Unfortunately, in today's society, there's lots of wiggle room, lots of room for different perceptions on what's harmful and what maybe hurts our kids or what protects our kids. And I feel like this is where you get conflict about elections or PTA meetings, right? There's all good meaning parents who are like, I need to protect my kid and we need to do this. But then another parent says, like, well, that thing that you want to do to protect our kids, I think that harms our kids. Right? Banning books, you know, whatever.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Yeah, totally.

[Kurt Gray]

Yeah, totally. All these things. And so it's these competing perceptions of harm that drive our moral conflict. And, and so I think to understand moral conflict, to have this deep understanding that you mentioned, we need to ask ourselves, you know, what harms do they see when they disagree with me? And that kind of puts us in the mindset of saying, like, they're not, they're not fundamentally different than me. We all, you know, are trying to protect our kids. And, and, and how can I understand where they're coming from. And so I think that's the question you need to ask yourself. And then we can talk about tips for having, you know, these conversations about harm as well.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

And, and how do you go from, like. Because I do want to talk about how to have those conversations, but at what point is it, like, deep understanding, and at what point is it just not feeling like you're holding true to convictions that still. That are so clear to you?

[Kurt Gray]

Yeah, you know, it's a. It's a really hard line, and I think it's something that we all have to draw that line for ourselves. I mean, part of it depends a little bit on, like, how optimistic you are about human nature. Like, I'm an optimist. You know, I think every. Everyone's got a, you know, a good heart, except for maybe the 1% of psychopaths out there.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Right.

[Kurt Gray]

You know, like, everyone's trying their best, you know, to. To live their lives and protect their families. And so I think you can. You can respect where someone's coming from and listen to them in conversations, be civil. And then I think you can still say, but I. I disagree with that. And I think one way you can do it is by making sure that you help them in conversations to be respectful, too. So maybe I can tell a quick story.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Great.

[Kurt Gray]

Illustrate the point. So I'm driving to the airport. I have an Uber driver. He says, oh, you study morality in politics? Well, let me tell you what I believe. I'm a Christian nationalist, but not the typical kind. Okay? So I'm not a Christian nationalist. I. I don't agree with Christian nationalism in general, but also I didn't know exactly what his flavor of Christian nationalism was or, like, you know, what it meant to him. And so I said, could you tell me about your beliefs and why you believe that and what you think about things? And so for 20 minutes, we had this conversation. I learned a lot. And then as we were kind of getting close to the airport, we started talking about women's reproductive rights. We started talking about abortion. It's a minefield. And then he starts saying, well, anyone who believes this is kind of like, you know, the Nazi soldiers during the Holocaust. And there I said, whoa, right? We can't have a good faith discussion about morality and politics with you comparing someone to the Nazis. Right? That's the end of the conversation when you do that. And so he said, you know what? You're right. I'm going to take a step back. And. And here's really what I meant. And so I think if I hadn't had listened to him, we wouldn't have had that mutual respect for me to kind of challenge him on that, like too much of his, you know, of his beliefs. And so I think that that's really the line that I think, right. Like you can understand a person as a person and then that helps have like, more civil and, and more understanding from his part about what I believe as well.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

I mean, what a conversation opener when you talk about what you do study, right? Like, I wonder if so many people feel more safe to kind of tell you their belief system or if they feel like, oh, let me tell you, because I know, like, if it brings out, because I know that happens to me. Even when people talk about parenting, they often are sort of put off if I'm talk about. I'm a developmental psychologist and one of the big focuses that I have is about the, the environment of parenting. And that can be really off putting because it sounds like I'm about to tell them in a judgmental way, like, I know the right answer of the right way that you're supposed to be a parent. And it's such a personal and vulnerable topic. So a lot of times people will just say, I don't read books. And I don't think about that stuff. Here's, here's what I know. And then they give me their philosophical belief system, which I'm thrilled to hear. I think people are often surprised that I, I'm not coming in with answers in any way like they thought I might be. And I don't know that there are that many people in the field of research that would be like, here it turns out, I know this, you know, like exactly how you should do it. But there is a freedom to sort of hear from people and be curious. And also I notice people can get more locked into their belief system because they don't, they don't want someone telling them, like, what their parenting should be any more than they want them to be told what morality is.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

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[Professor Kurt Gray]

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[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

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[Professor Kurt Gray]

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[Professor Kurt Gray]

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[Professor Kurt Gray]

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[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

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[Professor Kurt Gray]

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[Professor Kurt Gray]

So I'm curious kind of when those conversations happen and if it's young people like how do you disarm them so that they can open up to you in a way that's not like I'm proving to you that I am moral or I'm proving to you that I am a good parent or whatever it is.

[Kurt Gray]

Right. And I, you know, I like the, the Distinction or not real distinction between parenting and morality. I mean, parenting is like the most moralized thing, right? Totally. You're a bad parent, you're. You're a bad person. Right? Which is why we all worry. Am I, you know, am I doing enough? Am I doing the right things? But in terms of like having those conversations, I think there are many, you know, many things you can do. If in the, in the book we, you know, I've tried to distill it maybe down to a couple points, three points. I call it Civ. The. The sieve of civil conversations. Just to make it easy. And the, the first point is connect, like be. Before you talk about morality and politics. I mean, right. Like, imagine just like, hi, I'm Kurt. Like, what do you think about morality? Right. Like, wow, that's a lot. And so you can connect with someone as a human being. Right? Right. Like, what'd you do today? What do your kids do it? Right. You could just get to know them as a person. And to do that, I think the, a good thing to do is ask questions. We're normally so like, focused on like telling our opinions that if, if you ask questions about, oh wow, like you're a Christian nationalist. Interesting. Like, tell me about that. And like, what do you think of. Right. And you're like, oh, wow, like you're interested in me as a person and so move. Once someone, you know, connects with you, then I, that's the c. The I is invite. And so everyone likes to be invited to a party, except maybe like the 40th birthday party for your four year olds. And, and I think, you know, you invite someone to share their political beliefs. Oh, you voted differently than I did in the last election and I want to understand why. So I was hoping maybe you could, you know, you can spell out what you're thinking and what values maybe you know, motivated you to do that. And so that's very different than saying like, how could you vote for this person? Right. That's a totally different conversation starter. And so once you've been invited, right, Someone shares their beliefs and then the, the V is validate. I mean, people have to put themselves out there to talk about their moral positions, especially if they know you disagree. And so the, the validate is just saying, oh, wow, you know, thanks for sharing that. And, and it's different than agreeing, again, respect versus persuasion or agreeing. You don't give up your convictions. You just say, thanks for sharing that. I, I appreciate that would have been hard. Maybe you can reframe it. And I Know, you said this, right? But how I think about it is like, do you mean this? And that helps kind of like if they say something like, oh, you're, you know, are you a baby killer or do you hate women? Right. Like these, these really caricatures of these beliefs you can kind of reframe and say. What I hear you saying is you're really, you know, trying to protect women's reproductive rights or fetuses, whatever side of the debate you're on. And then once you've reframed that charitably, you can have a better conversation. So connect, invite, validate.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

I mean, that's kind of the key to connecting with your kids too, right? And being in conversations about anything.

[Kurt Gray]

Yeah, that's true, actually. Yeah, that's a great point. I think back all these conversations with my kids, right? You're like, oh, yeah, you know, how'd your day go? You're not like, what happened today at school? Right. And then you're like, wow, that must have been tough. Or it sounds like a lot of fun. Yeah, it's a good key to life. Good point.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

It really is a good key to life. So let's say you're, you know, at the dinner table. And I want to give an example with a younger child and one with an older one, but I'm just thinking about, like, when a younger kid, when you overhear like a family member or another child using a word that you disagree with, and how you're like, oh, we don't use words like that or something that can sound awfully close to, we are so protective of your moral behavior, or what we're perceiving is some indication of your morality that we need to, like, really draw a line that, that, that that other person did or said is not okay. And so already you're starting in this, with this paradigm of like, this is us, and those are those people that do that the wrong way. And what's another way that you could help a younger child understand using this framework, so that when they are kind of talking about what happened in school or somebody hit them or they took somebody's toy or somebody cursed or whatever. I'm just thinking like, very. Just the tiny little everyday things that happen where you catch yourself, where you could get into a position of starting that moral rightness, that kind of becomes a little bit of a problem later.

[Kurt Gray]

Yeah, it's a, it's a great question. And. Right. It comes up every day. And so I think when at least we approach it and thinking of the, of the research you know, one, we try to be calm, right? And so have these conversations when emotions aren't running high. It's hard to address it when everyone has big feelings. And I think when you're trying to address these issues with your kid, what I would do is say, well, we don't do that because we think that behavior is harmful, and here's how we think it. But other people might see the world a little differently, and here's why they might do that. Right? So you're, you're saying that, like, they understand harm differently, but the way we understand it is kind of the more right way. And you, you can't get around these kind of, like, convictions when it comes to morality. But I think, I think the, the key is, and here's maybe another way to think about it, you don't want to make it seem like a hundred percent you're right and 0% they're right. I think even if you're like 99 or 1, that that's still different than we typically think about in society today. Right. Even if we're mostly right, they're a little bit right, too. And I think that goes a long way.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

And so let's move to older kids because it gets more intense because now you're kind of like, oh, my God, you're forming your values. And these are bigger issues than just like, who took the toy or who was mean on the playground. And we're also thinking like, okay, I want to help support this moral development. And also I want to raise a kid who doesn't stand there in moral rightness and judgment, except I want them to choose the right thing. So, like, an example for just the election. Like, let's say your, your teen comes home so angry because they found out that so and so voted in a different way. And that's so enraging to them. And they are so a hundred percent right about that. And you agree with them, but you want to both, you know, support their choice and also, like, help them understand that that other person had both a right and their own conviction to make a different decision. How does that conversation go down again after being calm?

[Kurt Gray]

Yeah. Right. And it's hard again, the paradox of parenting. You want to encourage independence, especially in a teen. Right. You're your own person, but I'm still responsible for making sure you're a good person. Right. And I think with those conversations, again, you want to validate. Right? It's. It's totally fair to feel that way. It's totally fair to feel strong moral convictions. That you know, this candidate is the right candidate. I agree. But separate the behavior from what the person did with who they are. This is what we do with kids all the time, right? Like, I really wish you didn't do that. It doesn't mean you're a bad kid. It doesn't mean I don't love you. It just means like, I wish you would act differently in this situation or circumstance. And so with their friend, I think you can say, look, they're still, you know, they're still a good person. You still went to their birthday party. You still, you know, hang out with them in these group contacts at school. But it's okay not to agree with this behavior. And I think they're wrong about this. And maybe let's think about why they did what they did and you know, why you believe what you believe. And so I think using it as a chance for introspection and for thinking about the other person again while not giving in or just saying like, whoa, morality is relative and everything goes because it doesn't. But there's still a behavior versus person kind of separation.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

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[Professor Kurt Gray]

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[Professor Kurt Gray]

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[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

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[Professor Kurt Gray]

Okay, so I do think we have to work really hard to separate person and behavior. And also there's another thing that happens in adolescence and even with younger kids that I'm curious, like how we, how this goes along with kind of moral development, which is their deep conviction is almost necessary for them to like form their opinions about things. Except we're trying to like turn that volume down a little bit so they can see the perspective of another person. But we don't want to undermine what their experience is. And I think a better example than politics would be if you, your kid come, comes home and says that they were kind of the victim of some kind of wrongdoing of a peer. And like, what's the balance of hearing their, their story, hearing their experience and supporting them, but like helping them. Also ask those reflective questions to figure out what could have happened from the other person's perspective, but not undermining the fact that like, you hear them and you're there for them. It's so Complicated. So I would love your thoughts on that.

[Kurt Gray]

It's so complicated. My wife and I have a, a good friend and their son was kind of bullied by a kid at school who was also his friend. And they were kind of trying to figure out why and they asked him like, well, you know, what were you doing right. Beforehand, you know, informationally? And I think this is the key, right? Yeah. Like you're, you're trying to understand. That's right. Like you're just trying to get information like a journalist, right? You're trying to figure out the causal sequence of events. And you know, and it turns out he said, well, he's like, well, I said like, maybe you shouldn't do it like that in a kind of grown up way. And then it turns out this kid's mom is like, oh, the one thing he hates is like being talked to like a grown up by another kid. And you know, now you can kind of see it. But again, it's, you know, it's still wrong to bully another person. And so I think what you can do there is kind of exactly what you said, right? You're like, I understand your experience, your pain, which is what morality is really all about. Your suffering, the harm you felt, totally real. But also pragmatically, we'd like you to feel less of that in the future. And so let's think about how we can maybe not get this kid to do what he does. And I think getting your kid to humanize the, the perpetrator, if you will, a little bit is helpful. Right. So, so, you know, we, when we talk about in our house, some political elites, you know, we're like, well, why is, why are they like, bad? And sometimes we're like, well, I don't think they got enough snuggles as a kid. And you know, I wouldn't say that to a teen. But you're like, look, you know, I, I just don't think they got enough like, you know, licking of a rat. You know, rat moms lick their pups. I'm like, I just think they didn't get like licked enough as pups. And so it does, it doesn't make behavior. Right, but it does kind of contextualize it. So I think again, that kind of like, distinction of like, well, it's still bad, but maybe here's why it happens.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Yeah, I actually always think about like the, the other person, especially when things are heated politically like that as a child. I, I can't help it. Like, I always think, oh, what was their experience being Loved. And yeah, what was their rat pup experience? Because surely it had to do with some of the, you know, the way that we grow up. So that does help me feel, I don't know, a little bit more empathetic. However, it is so hard to be able to do that. And like, where's the line? Are you saying that about Hitler? And if you're saying that about Hitler, are you saying like, okay, we can really try to understand everyone, even if they're wrong and terrible or their behavior was like, are they or are we like, no, that's the 1% sociopath. And you have to be able to sort of know when to fold them and say like, we're not going to try to deeply understand this because it's, it's too, it's, it. To try to understand it would diminish how evil it is. Like, at what point is morality asking that of us? I don't even know.

[Kurt Gray]

Yeah, I, I mean, I think it's a, it's a great point. I mean, Hitler was abused as a child.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Right? There's no. Right. Of course. And then you go into that and you're like, God, I could, we can pretty much guarantee that when you look at dictators and evil leaders that we, they didn't have the sensitive care and love in any scenario.

[Kurt Gray]

Right, but, but no amount of like childhood trauma allows, you know, excuses those actions. Right? So I think in some sense, like those conversations, you know, I, I don't think I'm gonna talk to my 5 year old about Hitler. But, but there is a way, right?

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Extreme.

[Kurt Gray]

No, but like, you know, of understanding versus excusing, right? Explaining versus condoning. You're like, here's why it maybe happened, but it's still not right. And that's still the, the tension, right, between like, well, this is where morality is, but this is kind of understanding how people might disagree. And I think one way to think about it with everyday people who are not, you know, mass murderers or dictators is even if we have all have the same kind of mind that's based on harm and fixated on protection, there's different assumptions about the world and how it works that feed into that morality and those dictate our moral judgments. So if you, if you grew up evangelical and believe that there's such a thing as a immortal soul, then, then you're going to believe different things than if you're a secular atheist. And just think when you die, you know, you get annihilated. And so if you're cons, if you Think that, let's say a boy kissing a boy kind of tarnishes your soul and it leads to eternal damnation. Like, I don't believe that. But if someone does believe that and they legitimately think that someone's eternal soul is going to suffer forever, then I understand maybe why they're trying to protect people from being gay. Again, it's not what I believe, but now I understand that they have an assumption that I don't. But it acts on the same kind of, like, you know, quest or urge for protecting people, if that makes sense.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

You know, this is making me think so much about theory of mind and like, the skill to really buy into the fact that other people have different mental states than we do. And how I think about it with. With younger kids is like this developing skill. But then when I. When you're talking about that, just that perspective of like, well, of course, if you think that that's going to lead to eternal damnation, I certainly hope you're going to protect people from that. So what is it that we can do to kind of expand our concept of understanding that other people have different mental states than we do and different perspectives? Like, what are the ways that we can grow that muscle? Because it's hard, because so many times, I mean, just the sentence, if it were me, I would have said blank. And it's like, but it wasn't. It wasn't you. It's this other person. So, like, how do we get out of that mindset? What is the. What are the best ways for us to kind of grow that muscle while still understanding that we can have our own moral truth?

[Kurt Gray]

Yeah, I totally agree. It's about having this, like, theory of mind, this connection. And I think one thing that makes it really hard is what we're thinking about is theory of mind for when someone's worried about suffering, when someone's feeling vulnerable, when someone's hurting. And if you are hurting, it's almost impossible not to focus on your own pain. I mean, with kids especially, right? Like, they get hurt, and even if they're somewhat to blame for the situation, it's impossible for you to be like, well, maybe you're. You're to blame. Right. You know, and with people, too, right. If you feel like you're victimized or aggrieved by your partner, by someone at work, it's almost impossible to appreciate how they might feel victimized or aggrieved. And so again, you need to have this conversation when you're not feeling big feelings, when you're not in physical pain, in emotional pain, as best as you can. Right. You need to kind of, like, separate from that pain a little bit. And then for conversations, we know what doesn't work, to respect or understand the other side, and that's throwing facts at each other. So we have 15 studies in one paper that show people think that they want facts and political discussions or moral discussions, and then you give them the facts, and they don't work because they don't think they're real. Like, no one was ever, you know, at a holiday dinner. And you're like, oh, you know what? That's a great fact about immigration. I'm totally wrong. You're totally right. You know, like, never. Never has that happened. And so it turns out what you need to. To really see the other person's perspective when it comes to harm, and kids understand this as well, is telling personal stories, you know, telling about your personal experiences of suffering. So we study this with guns. You know, if someone says, well, the reason that I'm pro gun ownership is because there's this many people every year in America who defend themselves with handguns, you're like, okay, where do you get that stat from? What do you mean, defend themselves? What kind of handguns are we talking about? But if someone's like, look, 20 years ago, we had someone break into our house, and my mom used a gun to fend off, you know, the intruder, people say, oh, now I get it. You know, and even if I think you're wrong about the statistics, I still understand from your perspective, those feelings of vulnerability and your desire to escape future suffering. And so it's those stories that we can tell, and we can encourage people to. To kind of draw out of them, to see their perspective.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Wow. I'm just realizing, like, so much of my reaction sometimes to somebody's story when I'm trying to prove a point and when I'm not thinking clearly is to think that I'm thinking clearly by being like, what? That's Your N of 1. But, like, let's look at the. What the research would tell us. But actually, it really undermines the conversation because not everybody's interested in that research. They're interested in a story that can help them understand the other person so that they can know where they're coming from, so that they can kind of let their guard down and be really in the. In this discussion.

[Kurt Gray]

Yeah. I mean, you're also a scientist. Right. So, you know, they. They hammer into our heads and statistics.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Yeah. Not just go by a story.

[Kurt Gray]

That's right. Anecdotes aren't data. But yeah, it turns out in the area era of fake facts, everyone has their own statistic. They're all taken out of context, or at least we think they are. And so the one thing we know is true is what happened in a person's life. And this is why when we find out someone lies about their own personal experience, we get really offended, we get really upset. Because that's the thing that people should know best and that's the thing that resonates. Right. I just think of like, you're talking to your kid, you're trying to teach them about how the world works. You read them stories, you know, parables, you're teaching them lessons. You're not like 67% of kids who went out into the woods with red capes, you know, had their grandmas eaten by wolves. Right. Like, right. You use the story, not the statistic to teach kids.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

No, it's a good reminder because I can get very much out of the story head space. And it's so undermining. It's just really hard because you're right, you get trained to do the opposite. But the human thing are stories. And we all connect over stories. In overhearing conversations over the holidays, I did notice that the teenagers in my life were asking questions in their sort of disagreements of like, well, walk me through the end of that story, like, what's your big worry? And I think that part of that comes from debate, frankly. Like they do debate. But part of it is also maybe this is the direction that we have to go in to understand people. And maybe younger people are better at it. I would like to be better at it. But I would also like to help our young people get out of this, sort of untangle themselves from what we have as the adults seem to have gotten ourselves into, which is this battle where no one's paying attention to the other side.

[Kurt Gray]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a great hopeful story. Right. Because it's not kids these days necessarily. Right. Like they're doing good. They're talking about where's the harm under there? And trying to understand these perceptions. And I teach a class to seniors and undergraduate. Right. They're like 21 year olds. And I also talk to, you know, other folks, older folks say, you know, donors, alumni and so forth. And those older folks are always thinking like kids these days, right? Like they can't have these conversations. But the kids these days have better conversations than the older folks, I think, like they're willing to listen. I teach My students, how to have these conversations. I teach my students, like, what's at the core of moral debates about abortion or euthanasia? Racism. These are tough topics. And then I make them go home as an assignment and have a conversation with someone they disagree with.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Wow.

[Kurt Gray]

About something like systemic racism. Right. So these kids go home, they talk to their grandparents about, you know, whether there's systemic racism in America or whether you should be allowed to have assisted suicide. And then they write about it. And I'm so impressed, one, that they stick to their convictions. But two, I try to inculcate this, like, moral humility. And they do a great job. Right. They recognize that, like, they could learn something from another person who disagrees with them. And they come back kind of more hopeful, more optimistic about the world and ultimately understanding more about themselves and, and the kind of moral issues. So I, I think there's a lot of hope.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Okay. That is such a hopeful way to wrap this up. And I just want to ask you one other question, because the name of my podcast is Raising Good Humans, and I'm very self conscious of it because people think that I therefore know the definition of what a good human is. And I'm like, no, no, no, I, that's. To each, you know, like, we each know what that means, but I don't think I know more than somebody else. But with you, I'm curious, like, how do we define that? Like, how, how would you define that in, like, when you're thinking about morality?

[Kurt Gray]

Wow, that's a good question. I mean, it goes back to what we talked about earlier with, you know, you, you say you are an expert on kids, and then people are like, well, here's what I believe. Or like, are you going to tell me what the, what the truth is? And whenever, whenever I'm in a car and I. Or a plane and I say, I'm a psychologist, I always say, but I'm not the helping kind.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Me too.

[Kurt Gray]

So people don't tell me they're, you know, I, you know, I'm happy to help with their problems, but, you know, I'm not good at it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think with morality, like, I study what people think is right and wrong. I study descriptively what people think is right and wrong. And then the normative question about what actually is good or bad, you know, I don't want to dodge it entirely, but I think when it, when it comes to me, I think, well, I try to raise my kids to prevent as much harm and suffering in the world as they can. I guess I'm a utilitarian at heart, right? And I want them to think outside their perspective all the time. Because going back to the point about theory of mind, like, I think a good human is someone who can appreciate the mental states and the emotions and feelings of someone else and really try to respect whether they're suffering and try to prevent that. That's what I want. I want my kids that can understand the minds of others, and I think that makes them a better human.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

I mean, I'm so glad I never.

[Professor Kurt Gray]

Asked this, but I felt like with you, which, again, ridiculous that I did that to you, because when people do that to me, I'm like, no, that's not. I can't do that. But I do feel like with all the work that you do, it's gotta have come up. And so I love that. And I do think that if your work can help us do a little bit more of that, we're good. That's another. That is optimistic. That's right. It's another step. Thank you so much.

[Dr. Eliza Pressman]

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