Picky Eating, Sleep Training & Potty Training: Parenting Myths Debunked w/ Emily Oster

Summary

Raising Good Humans w/ Dr. Aliza Pressman

Episode: Picky Eating, Sleep Training & Potty Training: Parenting Myths Debunked w/ Emily Oster

Release Date: October 24, 2025
Guest: Emily Oster, economist & founder of ParentData.org

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Episode Overview

In this myth-busting episode, developmental psychologist Dr. Aliza Pressman hosts economist and parenting data expert Emily Oster for a candid, evidence-based look at “pain points” in modern parenting. Together, they unpack popular parenting myths—about rushing kids, toys, praise, picky eating, potty training, sleep training, and more—that often leave parents feeling needlessly anxious, stressed, or inadequate. Oster draws on empirical research, debunks misinformation, and reframes common worries, with emphasis on giving overwhelmed parents permission to relax and focus on what matters.

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Key Discussion Points & Myths Debunked

1. The “Hurried Child” & Parental Anxiety (02:08–06:05)

• Myth: “Rush your child and you’ll give them lifelong anxiety.”
  • Emily Oster: This myth stems from misinterpreting literature about overscheduling kids (the “hurried child” phenomenon) into micromanaging every small interaction:

  “It also puts parents in this position where they feel like every interaction with my kid is an opportunity to ruin them forever. It’s just like a very frustrating place and sort of a very anxiety provoking place to come from when you’re parenting.” (03:00)

  • Dr. Pressman: The ripple effect is parents now feel guilty and anxious about their own anxieties.
  • Takeaway: Parental mental health and resilience are crucial. Over-correcting due to incomplete interpretations of research increases overall family stress without any evidence-based benefit.
  • Memorable moment: Anecdote about a perfectionist parent trying to be the perfect “imperfect” parent (04:23–06:05).

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2. Toys, Rotating Systems, and Parental Control (06:05–08:55)

• Myth: You must rotate toys and provide only a perfect number of them, or your child is doomed.
  • Emily Oster:

  “...the data says anything’s fine. A lot of toys, not a lot of toys... What should determine the number of toys [is] what you mom or dad want your living room to look like.” (07:34)

  • The idea that you can “win” parenting through optimizing toys is misplaced—parents should focus on household happiness, not chase an unattainable ideal.

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3. Family Logistics & “Gains from Trade” (08:55–11:53)

• Discussion of Family Spreadsheets: Oster describes how she and her economist husband split family logistics by week/weekend, using their organizational strengths to alleviate stress.

  • “Some of marriage…is about finding those…gains from trade, which is what economists would call them.” (11:09)

• Takeaway: Delegate according to strengths and don’t feel guilty for not doing everything yourself.

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4. Praise & Rewards: What Really Matters? (15:39–19:56; 46:18–54:01)

Praise (15:39–19:56)

• Myth: Never say “good job” or your child will never develop a growth mindset.
  • Emily Oster:

  “To translate [growth mindset research] to the idea that you can’t say ‘good job’ and it’s going to ruin your kid…that is not a reasonable translation of that.” (16:43)

  • Both hosts discuss their experiences over-correcting on praise and how the bigger point is to create home environments where children feel loved and safe, not to perfectly regulate every phrase.

Rewards (46:18–54:01)

• Myth: Rewards “ruin” intrinsic motivation for life; e.g., giving M&Ms for potty training devastates self-motivation.
  • Emily Oster:

  “The reality is we were all potty trained on M&Ms…eventually you just get in the habit of using the toilet and then you stop needing the M&Ms.” (48:38)

  • Rewards can be helpful for habit formation (brush teeth, potty train), but are less effective at fostering lasting identity traits (like kindness or a taste for broccoli).
  • Use rewards thoughtfully and match to the goal—don’t stress about damaging your child’s moral character with a sticker chart!

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5. Sharing, Hitting, and Developmental Norms in Toddlerhood (21:31–24:50)

• Myth: My toddler not sharing— or hitting/biting— means they’re abnormal.
  • Emily Oster:

  “Here is the data on how many kids hit. It’s all kids.... And that is really developmentally normal.” (22:09)

  • The acceptability of physical behavior has changed more than kids themselves.
  • Dr. Pressman: Parenting intensity and surveillance has increased; don’t interpret every squabble as a crisis.

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6. Picky Eating: Phases, Pressure, and Solutions (24:50–32:32)

• Myth: Picky eating is a dire health crisis and must be “fixed” with intense strategies (or hidden veggies).
  • Emily Oster: Almost all kids go through picky phases, particularly ages 18 months–4 years; critical nutrient deficiencies are rare.
    • “If your kid ate two ketchup packets a day, that would be enough vitamin C to not get scurvy.” (26:01)
  • For vegetables: repeated exposure and non-pressured taste-building (including dips!) works better than sneaking veggies in brownies.

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7. Sleep Training & Co-Sleeping: Data vs. Judgment (32:53–40:37)

• Myth: Sleep training scars kids for life; co-sleeping harms their independence.
  • Emily Oster:

  “If you look at randomized trial data on sleep training… it improves sleep on average…improves parental mental health… [and] doesn’t cause any short or long term negative consequences in kids.” (33:30)

  • “There are many cultures in which people co-sleep for years…If co-sleeping is a thing that works for your family, then it is a thing that people should feel totally comfortable doing.” (35:45)
  • Takeaway: Choose flexible routines that support family well-being. Changing habits (especially with toddler sleep) is hard work, not impossible, and should depend on your capacity at the moment—not guilt.
  • Quote:

  “Your kid’s sleeping in your bed. They’re eating only nuggets for dinner—with two packets of ketchup… It’s fine…It’s affecting your experience, which is important, but…everything’s great for my kid.” (39:55)

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8. Potty Training: Timelines and Realities (41:30–42:56)

• Myth: You can potty train any child in three days.
  • Emily Oster:

  “You cannot potty train your kid in three days… it typically takes a few weeks to kind of get all the way from like the beginning to when your kid is finished potty training…” (41:37)

  • Pooping in the potty often takes even longer and is particularly challenging for children.

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9. Sibling Relationships & Comparisons (54:46–56:22)

• Myth: There’s a foolproof way to make siblings get along; comparisons (“Why can’t you be like your sister?”) are harmless.
  • Emily Oster:

  “One thing that seems to be bad for developing sibling relationships is…a lot of comparison. That generates…very, very long term resentments even in adult siblings.” (55:02)

  • The sibling bond is complex and can't be engineered; avoid overt comparison and focus on nurturing a safe family space.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On parental perfection anxiety:

  “I want to be the perfect, imperfect, like level of not perfect… So it was more stressful to her to think about herself in this way of being a perfectionist…” – Dr. Pressman (05:31)

• On over-rotating toys:

  “In general, if it requires a spreadsheet, it’s probably overdoing it.” – Dr. Pressman (08:29)

• On rushing, guilt, & anxiety:

  “We’ve somehow decided that parental mental health is not important…” – Emily Oster (03:50)

• On myth that ‘good job’ is harmful:

  “People…will go all over themselves to not say ‘good job’… and so where did that come from?” – Emily Oster (15:39)

• On sleep training:

  “If it is something that seems like it would be for you, then… you should feel comfortable doing it.” – Emily Oster (34:22)

• On rewards for habit formation:

  “You can use rewards to generate habits.” – Emily Oster (49:00)

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Timestamps for Major Topics

• 02:08 – The “hurried child” panic and its origins
• 06:05 – Toy rotation, parental control, and data-backed reality
• 15:39 – The “don’t say good job” myth and over-correcting praise
• 21:31 – Sharing, hitting, and developmental normalcy in toddlerhood
• 24:50 – Picky eating: phases and what actually works
• 32:53 – Sleep training, co-sleeping, and psychological outcomes
• 41:30 – The truth about potty training timelines
• 46:18 – Rewards, motivation, and habit formation
• 54:46 – Sibling rivalry and the dangers of comparison

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Practical Advice & Final Takeaways

• Almost nothing about daily parenting minutiae—praise words, rotating toys, toilets in three days, sleep strategies, specific food phobias—will make or break a healthy, loving child.
• Focus on what works for your family and your sanity (“What do you want your living room to look like?”).
• When in doubt, check reliable data or use resources like ParentData rather than Google panic spirals or unsolicited social media advice.

  • “I’d like to replace your panic Google. Try this out before you panic Google and find out that you’ve done something terrible because it’s very, very unlikely that you have.” – Emily Oster (57:02)

• Red flags in advice: Be skeptical of absolute certainty and prescriptive “evidence-based” claims on social media, especially if not tailored to a real decision or if not sought out by you.
  • Ask: Am I really seeking an answer to this question right now? (59:00)

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“If you really zoom out…and you’re like, what really matters to me is this, like, big picture…Your kid’s fine. Everything’s great… these things are not going to have an impact on that other than your capacity. And so when you can deal with it, if you want to deal with it, there are ways.”
— Dr. Pressman (40:37)

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For more myth-busting and calm, practical advice, visit parentdata.org or follow Dr. Pressman on social media.

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Transcript

[A]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production. Welcome to Raising Good humans podcast. I'm Dr. Liza Pressman and today I am speaking with Professor Emily Oster, who is on a mission to empower parents by providing the data and tools they need to make confident decisions. So Emily's actually an economist and she was so frustrated with how information and data gets translated out in the world that she decided to clear it up for everyone. And she has an awesome website called parentdata.org and basically, if you're feeling overwhelmed or you just want to neurotically check on something because somebody told you something scary, she will make you feel better or she'll let you know that you probably should be worried about it. And she's just looking at it from strictly a data perspective. And I really just loved it. So we're clearing up some myths today that have occurred that kind of drive parents a little bonkers because sometimes what's out there is just misinformation. If you enjoy this episode, please write a review and give it a five star rating. So the word is out in the world and as always, Instagram, substack all of it. Just check in and I'll see you there. I think we all know you're the voice of reason here in this very noisy space of like people talking about research based anything related to raising kids. But then it's not actually rooted in good science and that can get really scary. And so I think it would be really fun to go through some of the pain points that you're noticing a lot of and then clear them up right here. So an example? Yeah. Like, what's your, what's your favorite? This isn't science panic related to raising kids.

[B]

Exactly. So lately my favorite is the. If you rush your kid out the door, you will give them anxiety for life. And I like that example because I think it illustrates the problem with a lot of these discussions, which is it takes a little bit of something. You know, there's an academic literature around a phrase like the hurried child. So if you go back into like the psych, you know this, but you go back in the psych literature, you can find, you know, a paper, even a book on the hurried child, which is a book about how we. It's not that it's actually a book about a totally different thing, which is like, we shouldn't enroll our kids in too many extracurriculars when, because it will make them, you know, not enjoy their childhood as much. I mean, it's an interesting set of issues. It's it got sort of repurposed into this idea that like, if you tell your kid to put their shoes on fast that they will develop anxiety. And I think that's it. Like that's ridiculous. That's how the data says. And it also puts parents in this position where they feel like every interaction with my kid is an opportunity to ruin them forever. It's just like a very frustrating place and sort of a very anxiety provoking place to come from when you're parenting. And so that's, that's my latest favorite example because I think it combines many of the pieces of what's wrong with a lot of our discourse.

[A]

It's a great example because also, I mean, what would be much worse for kids and anxiety would be the parent who's so anxious because of they've rushed their kids and they think that that's leading to anxiety.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean it's like we over forever.

[B]

Yeah, we don't. We, we've sort of also, I don't know, somehow decided that parental mental health is not, is not important. And so where then the parents are anxious and then they're sad and then they don't know how to handle things and then that's probably worse. But then they're like, oh my gosh, I'm making it worse by being anxious about now more anxious that I'm making it worse by being anxious. I should dial down my anxiety. But it's like, it's a sort of catastrophizing, I don't know, it's like you're rolling down the cliff and you can't, you can't stop yourself somehow.

[A]

I once I had this client. I learned so much from clients who I messed up with early and many years ago. This is like 20 years ago. But she, she is a perfectionist type of gal, as one would be if you're a new parent going to a parenting class.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And she. So I was talking to her about this perfect list that she made for her child every day. It was like a beautiful visual for all the things that need to happen off of something that I had suggested that turned into like way more of a project than I meant for it to, to be. And I said, I think that being a, like such a perfectionist might be too much. And like, maybe we just dial that back because otherwise. Anyway, she's like, well, now I'm, now I'm freaking out about the fact that I'm a perfectionist.

[B]

Like how many things should I take off the list? Is it like I want to Get. I want to take the exact right number of things off the list. Is it like a third of them, a half of them? Just tell me exactly the right number on the list. That would make me relaxed, seem relaxed.

[A]

That was, that was exactly what I learned from her, was she was like, I now need to be the perfect, imperfect, like level of not perfect. So it was more stressful to her to think about herself in this way of like being a perfectionist and also rightfully so. She just had a kid and she was like, like a high achieving woman. Like, it's going to happen. You're going to want to get it right. So I learned my lesson that we just have to. This is a vulnerable time. Okay, but give me more. Okay.

[B]

So. So the other, another sort of much lighter thing that I have been hearing a lot, which I think is, is kind of I. This one, I'm not even really sure where it came from, but the idea that you need to have a small number of toys that you rotate so that kids are sort of like overwhelmed with too many toys. And so the, the right way to do this is to have a small number of them and then you like, have them stored somewhere and then you like. In one case, somebody did suggest to me that they had a spreadsheet in which they were documenting the toys that were rotating in in different, in different times. That's nice. And again, you know, it sort of comes out of like this sort of something that's real, which is like kids like novelty and you don't want to overwhelm, you know, but it's sort of like, I just feel like so many of these things are about this idea that you can win somehow that like you can like, or that you can do, you can like achieve this in the way that you achieved, you know, a promotion and at your job or admission to college or whatever it was. This is. And I think somehow it's very hard to give up the control or the idea that if we just did it right, it would be like perfect. And I mean, your kids are not like, are not like that. And so I don't know.

[A]

That's.

[B]

Don't. You don't need to rotate. You could rotate your toys.

[A]

You could rotate your toys. And also you could not have a thousand toys out at once. But you could also probably not worry about it and things are going to be fine too. Or you could.

[B]

I always want to tell people, you know, ask like you're like, well, what is the data? It's like, well, the data says anything's Fine. A lot of toys, Not a lot of toys. A few toys. Toys made of wood, Toys made of that make noises, you know, toys that don't make no anything is fine. And so maybe instead of asking like what's the optimal number of toys to optimize my kid to like win this, whatever this thing is that we're winning, why don't you just ask how many toys do I want in my living room? Like when I look at my living room, what do I want it to look like? Some people are like, I love it to look crazy and like super fun. Other people are like, you know, I really would like it to like the toys to fit in a bin and like that will make me happy. And it's like that's what, that's what should determine the number of toys what you mom or dad want your living room to look like. And you could just, then you can implement that. And that's actually an easy question to answer and would probably improve your life more than you know, trying to optimize.

[A]

In general, if it requires a spreadsheet, it's probably overdoing. It is right.

[B]

Like I'm trying to think about what I have, I do have, we do have family spreadsheets but they're not, not about my kids development.

[A]

They're probably more like menu planning and packing, packing lists.

[B]

We have, we have some family documents.

[A]

Yeah, I'm not a spreadsheet person but I love someone who like my husband is a spreadsheet person and I believe everybody should have someone in the house who probably is more like that. I'm just not. But I like feel very calm when someone else is.

[B]

My husband and I have a, A we, we both like documents and spreadsheets. We have like a weekly email situation which actually I think is really great where like at the beginning of the week I send an email about like what's happening all the days of the week and then in the middle of the week he sends an email about the weekend. So we have already established like what is happening on those days and then we can discuss if we have some disagreement about what we're going to do and then you know, we can implement it.

[A]

Wait, so is he in charge of weekend?

[B]

Yeah, he's in charge of the weekend and I'm in charge of the week.

[A]

That's so fair play of you.

[B]

Yes. I mean the week is, the week is five days and the weekend is only two days. I don't know if you're.

[A]

There's no requirement on the weekend.

[B]

Familiar with the length of those times.

[A]

I said that.

[B]

But I will say I think the weekend may be harder because the week rarely has choices. The week is more just like reviewing who's going to do pickup or, you know, who's going to get kids at different times. And the weekend is. Sometimes has some like, flexibility.

[A]

So that was really generous of you.

[B]

Yeah, no, I try to be, I try to be nice to him. I think if he were on, he would say I, I do more of the work in the, in the household. But, you know, I mean, part of this thing about whatever this is in a podcast about marriage. But I do think that there's a, there's a thing in your, in, in the kind of relationship with your partner when you're trying to do a lot of parenting together about recognizing what parts you find difficult and sort of trying to, to allocate things in a way that takes advantage of the things that people are good at. You know, like, I hate reading emails from the school. I just hate it. I can't do it. I don't have the attention to detail. I like skim over. And my husband doesn't mind at all. And he reads all the emails from the school and then he sends them to me with like, here are the two things you need to know. And I think he would be like, that's no big deal. But for me, that's like an enormous deal because I hate reading those emails. And so I don't know. Some of marriage, I think in sort of parenting is about finding those, like, the, like, gains from trade, which is what economists would call them.

[A]

Is he also an economist?

[B]

Yeah, he is also an economist, which is a whole other thing for my children, but yes.

[A]

Did you also come from.

[B]

My parents are also. Were also economists.

[A]

Yes. This is a whole other episode.

[B]

It's a lot to unpack.

[A]

We're not going to get into this because I really want to get into the other stuff, but I just, I, I think it would be so fun to see how you don't even, it's not even purposeful, but like part of the conversation and part of the just tone of the households lends itself to then, you know, getting this stuff.

[B]

Yes. I think my kids are not interested in being economists, but they, they have absorbed some of our, like, neurotic planning.

[A]

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[B]

So praise is a. Is a great example because people. The thing if you ask, like, what do people hear? What people have heard is don't say good job. If you say good job, your child will never achieve anything in life, and people will go all over themselves to not say good job. You know, so, like, they'd be like, you know, good effort, good try. I don't know. Not. He's not even good. You're not even supposed to say that. You're supposed to say, you know, how did you feel about it? Right? Your kid comes home and they say, you know, they're like, I did this on this slide, and how did you feel about the slide? It's like. And so where did that come from? So I think that comes from literature and in psychology around, you know, developing basically grit and resilience and the idea of kind of wanting people to celebrate the effort or to be rewarded for the effort or to think of the effort, have a growth mindset, and think of their ability to. To sort of try in something as kind of core to what they're. What they. What they're going to achieve. And so if you just say good job, people learn that the only thing that, you know that you don't need to try, and if you don't achieve something, you. There's no point in. In trying to. And again, like, that's there. There is something to the idea of a growth mindset and something to the idea of, you know, resilience and of having kids understand that just because you're. You've gotten something wrong doesn't mean you're bad at it. And, you know, because something comes easy doesn't mean that you shouldn't keep working on it, et cetera. But to translate that to the idea that you can't say good job and it's going to ruin your kid in this way, that is not a. That is not a reasonable translation of that.

[A]

Yeah, I think there's also probably like a behavioral translation that is like, it's not specific. And if it's not specific, then the child doesn't know what to do. But I think it's also. So there's like, fear that if you praise your child generally, or even just praise them, that they're gonna. For the outcome, not the process that they're gonna not have this growth mindset. And then there's also, like, behaviorally, if you're like, good job, but you don't know what you're being told is a good job, that you might then, like, get confused. But I think what it has done is terrified parents who are, like, not gonna say anything, or they're like, I'm so sorry. And I remember. I remember not saying, good job, and my mother saying, good job. She was a kindergarten teacher, by the way, so of course, she used a lot of positive reinforcement. And I was like, mom, don't take a job. I was so annoying because it was like. It was a long time ago, and I was overcorrecting, and she was like, oh, sorry, sorry. Not good job. And it was just, like, became this bad job.

[B]

Mediocre job. Adequate. Adequate job.

[A]

Yes. And then I also remember I never wanted to emphasize, like, traits that were not. That were not changeable due to hard work. So, like, looks or smarts or something. I was, like, also too literal about. I was just misinterpreting and getting too ridiculous. And then at some point, when my daughter, my oldest was in, like, fourth grade, she was like, I'm just like, do you think I'm smart or attractive at all? Like, you've literally never said that to me. And I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. I'm so sorry. Like, I took things so extreme because I was imprisoned by all of this nonsense, and it was. And I was over correcting for, like, the kernel of truth. I get it. I guess my point is I had a. At that point, a Ph.D. in developmental psychology. I was still messing it up because I was so like. But then, by the way, it doesn't matter. She's fine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she. She knows I love her and thinks she's pretty smart. But she was also, like. I would say the more important thing to that story was that she felt safe and comfortable being like, excuse me.

[B]

It's like, do you think.

[A]

Do you like me at all? But. So I feel like everything is fine. But it was just, like, yet again, a moment of, oh, my God, Even. Even when, you know, you're still, like, sometimes so just can get stuck in this nonsense.

[B]

I think sometimes our kids are very good at pulling us out of that. Not when they're toddlers, but when they're a little older. That. We had a sort of similar incident where one of my kids came home and, you know, at dinner was like, I got, you know, 98 on this test, and My husband was like, and how did you feel about that? And she was like, no, that's not. Like, we're not doing that.

[A]

Like, it's like, it's like, welcome to my dinner table.

[B]

We're not having. How did you. How did you feel? That's not the reaction that have. We're having to that. No. So much of this is. Is like, how do you. How do you get to a kid who is willing to say, like, you know, do this better. Like, here is what I need you to do to like, make this work for me and to feel. I mean, you know, if you look at like, the, the literature on like, bullying, right, like, what makes kids resilient to bullying or, you know, people ask, like, how do I keep my kid from being bullied? Like, you can't keep your kid from being bullied necessarily. Like, that sometimes happens. It happens to a lot of kids. Very difficult to, particularly as they get bigger, to kind of intervene. But the thing that you can generate at your home is like a kind of resilience to that which is delivered by, you know, your home being a safe space for your kids to come home to where they know that somebody loves them. And that is kind of in your. In your control. I think there are many things in. In parenting, especially as my kids have gotten older, that sort of feel like that's kind of all you can do, which is hard. You know, going back to the toddler parenting, kind of coming out of this. This younger kid phase, where you feel like, I'm going to control, control, control, and then to sort of realize you didn't have control then and you definitely don't have control now.

[A]

So that's a really good point. Okay, well. Okay, going back to these. What are some of the misunderstandings about. And I don't even want. I don't know why I'm framing it like misunderstandings, but I do think, like, what are the kernels of truth about peer relationships in preschool that. Or taught even toddlers, maybe let's talk about sharing versus turn taking or something that maybe has gotten a little bit off the rails.

[B]

I think our expectations for how, you know, people have an expectation that toddlers are going to be able to share and that if you. That like the sort of. That if your kid doesn't share or God forbid they hit another kid, like, if you're. I mean, let's just. Let's just put aside, like, sharing. We kind of all understand, like, nobody likes to share, you know, and like, but. But a thing. I get a lot Is like, my kid hit another kid and like, are they a sociopath? Right? Like, is basically, does this mean like my kid is a, is hitting or biting, like they're a bad kid. And so one of the things, at some point I, I wrote something for people that was just like, here is the data on how many kids hit. It's all kids. You know, put like, forget about hitting your mom. Like 100% of the kids have hit their mom. But even hitting other kids, it's a huge share of kids and it actually goes on much older than people think. It's not just three year olds, although it is three year olds. It actually, you know, kind of in the 6 to 10 you still get some kids hitting. And that is really developmentally normal. You know, it doesn't mean every kid is going to hit. It doesn't mean that hitting is okay. Right. It's different from saying like, hitting is a behavior that we should encourage. But the balance between, like, this is not okay. And we need to figure out, you know, what's the system. We're going to have to limit hitting and think about, you know, control or discipline or boundaries or whatever word you want to use there. Like, that's one thing. And then there's like, does this mean that my kid is abnormal in some way? Which I think is where a lot of parents have gone more so than in the past, in part because I think the, the kind of tenor of like what's okay on the playground and how much supervision people have is really different. You know, I think when we were, when I was a kid, there was much more just like your toddlers are off somewhere and they hit each other and people are like, well, if there was blood, call me, you know. Yeah, we sort of, the acceptability of that behavior has declined over time, but actually kids don't. Kids are still hitting at pretty much the same rate they did they did before. And so I think just having, helping parents hold that balance between like, yeah, you want to think about how to not have this happen and make it clear it sound okay. And also it is totally developmentally irregular. I think people are watching way more, way more closely. I mean, we know there's way, like parents, we know from the data parents spend way more time with their kids than they used to, even though they spend more time at work. So even, you know, like moms who work now are spending way more time parenting than moms who stayed home with their kids in the 50s. And so it's just like the, the sort of intensiveness of Parenting in, you know, particular socioeconomic groups especially has gotten so much more that we're sort of seeing this and then there's a kind of social pressure around particularly physical violence that kind of comes to like, you know, well, you don't want that your kid to be the kid who's hitting on the playground. And then the other parents on the playground are kind of, you know, judging, and then you sort of spirals.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So another whammy that feels like it hits toddlers is picky eating.

[B]

What is so challenging about picky eating is that it can come on in like a second, right? Like little kids, like babies, many babies are very open to new foods and they'll just eat whatever you put the Brussels sprouts a big. They're just like stuffing their face. And then there'll be a moment at like, you know, 18 or 19 months when all of a sudden it'll be like, I only eat white food. You know, you're. It's just like this kid who, who was eating everything is just incredibly picky. And almost all kids go through that kind of phase. Pickiness tends to start sort of sometime between 18 months into it goes, it increases to about 4, and then it kind of declines after that. But you know, kids in that toddler age range can be incredibly picky. So I think there's like. So one thing to say there is people sometimes worry, like, my kid is literally like, not that like they're going to get scurvy. You know, like, they're just like so picky. They don't that like they need a multivitamin because they are literally getting no nutrients whatever. You know, your kid's not very unlikely your kid's gonna get scurvy. You know, if you had like, if your kid ate two ketchup packets a day, that would be enough vitamin C to not get scurvy.

[A]

Why that grosses me out.

[B]

Well, I mean, you're not. Because you're not a three year old.

[A]

I don't know why.

[B]

Yeah, you eat cat good. Just like not right out of the packet. So most of the time this kind of pickiness is not so pathological that it's like sort of damaging to, to kids. And then, you know, there's a question of like, how do you, how do you influence this? And sometimes you're just like, you kind of, you can't influence it that much. You know, there's not. For the most part, most kids will go through a picky eating phase. And it's difficult to, you know com completely avoid that. One of the things that does happen is people sort of respond to this pickiness by being worried their kid's not eating enough, which is also generally not true. So most kids are fine at getting enough calories. And so this sort of like response to my kid won't eat the pot roast for dinner of like I'm going to make chicken nuggets is a reinforcing response. And so that's okay. If your goal, if you're planning to make chicken nuggets all the time, which is completely fine, then it's fine to have that response. If your goal is not to do that every time, then you sort of need to think about how you're not not going to do that.

[A]

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[B]

Other vegetables the main. Like, it's like vegetables. How do you get your kid to eat vegetables? Kids don't like vegetables. Here are some things. There actually is, like, a fair amount of good data about how to get kids to eat vegetables. The one is that, you know, when they're very little, they need to try them multiple times. So a lot of kids don't like vegetables the first time and kind of the third time they. They get into it. For older kids, we have some good evidence on vegetable dip pairings that you can get kids to eat more vegetables if there's dip. So they do these experiments where they, like, offer kids, you know, vegetable who don't like vegetables with dip versus vegetables without. And like, the kids like the vegetable. Of course you like. I mean, of course they like vegetables with dip. Everybod likes vegetables with dip. But it's, it's more. But it's a way to kind of like work into those flavors and then, you know, to kind of get, get used to the, the flavors. We know that a lot of people's flavor tastes are formed in childhood. And so it's like a sort of opportune time. Not in a high pressure way. Like, if your kid doesn't like peppers as a kid, they'll never like them. But this is. They, they. Their taste buds are very malleable.

[A]

Okay, and what about people who, who are hiding their vegetables?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, look, we don't have a lot of data on the vegetable hiding. I will say that, you know, the, the thing that you're looking to develop in some of these, like, you know, people develop taste when they're kids are a taste for the product. So a taste like you're looking to develop kids to like the taste of broccoli because it's delicious. And that is not developed by putting broccoli in a bread that doesn't taste like brownie, but.

[A]

Yeah, or brownie.

[B]

Or in a brownie.

[A]

The goal is taste development. Think about that.

[B]

Yeah. And if the goal is. And again, to sort of go back to. And be like, well, the goal is to get them these, these nutrients. Well, they're getting the nutrients. It's like, it's okay. They're getting that. They're getting the nutrients. You know, they're not. Again, they don't have scurvy. And so I think that's. That's a little bit of the. Something wrong with eating, putting broccoli in the, in the brownie. But it's probably not necessary now.

[A]

This is less toddlery and more baby. But it just feels like so important to hear. And then we'll go back to toddlers. And I guess this does impact all the buildup, but I feel like you're going to know what I'm going to say. But can you address sleep training? The different kinds, different research that we have, the different data just to just do it.

[B]

Okay, so sleep training very generically refers to basically any system in which you're gonna have your. They sort of leave the baby alone or with the parent there for some period of time to cry and to fall asleep on their own. That's like. And the, the thing people are most familiar with is this kind of like, put them down in the crib, close the door and leave. There is the, like, put the down the crib, close the door, leave, come back at some intervals, there's a few different verbs, versions of this. A lot of people will hear that sleep training causes attachment issues for your kids. That is not supported in the data. If you look at, you know, randomized trial data on sleep training, you see that, you know, it improves sleep on average and it tends to improve parental mental health fairly significantly and it doesn't cause any short or long term negative consequences in kids. And so, I mean, I tell people that and then say, you know, sleep training might not be for you. Like, not everybody wants to sleep train their kid. And I do think that some parents feel like their pediatricians in particular will tell them, like, you have to sleep train, you have to sleep and your kid will never sleep. Like that's not for every, like it's just not for every parent. But if it is something that seems like it would be for you, then.

[A]

You should feel comfortable doing it as an extension. Yeah, let's say you're co sleeping in some way on purpose, like not co like. Or I guess it could just be that you have a little friendly visitor at four o' clock in the morning. Can you address two parts to that? One would be what we know about whether outcomes for kids who sleep in their parents bed versus knots are different in terms of autonomy support or, I don't know, whatever outcomes you want to talk about. Should someone who's decided to sleep in their bed with their kid panic about it or if they're coming into their bed beyond the decision that they might want to make for themselves personally, like, is it harmful or not to the children? Was that a question? Yeah, yeah, that was a question. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, so we talk a lot about like sort of co sleeping being dangerous and that is all about like the very beginning. And so now we sort of fast forward to like it's a, your kid's a toddler, you know, they're even like over sort of six months. The risks of co sleeping are more or less zero in terms of physical risks. And so then we might think like, is there some psychological issue in the. And no, there are many cultures in which people co sleep for years and years and years and many families in which people co sleep and families in which they don't co slee. And if co sleeping is a thing that works for your family, then it is a thing that people should feel totally comfortable doing. That phrase, if it is something that works for your family, I think is actually the pretty important phrase. So I, you know, I think there are some parents who will say like, this is Just really great. Like, I love, you know, I have a friend who co. Sleeps with her 6 year old and she's like, I love it, it's so great. It's like, it's like our best time of the day. It's really important to me. You know, my kid's getting enough sleep, I'm getting enough sleep. We're so happy with it. Like, that's tough. Fantastic. That's great. There are people who say, you know, my kid comes into my bed and I hate it and I'm not sleeping and they're not sleeping and like, this is really not working for us, but how do we get out of this? And I think that that's. Then there's a question of like, how do you get, how do you get out of it? And do you have to go sleep and you don't have to go sleep? And so the, and that is this actually probably. I don't know. I'm curious if you had this. I would say the one of the most challenging things people have is, is like toddler sleep. And how do I change whatever terrible pattern I'm in with toddler sleep? Whether it's they're sleeping in my bed and I don't want them to bedtime take six hours. You know, they're not like, whatever it is. I think toddler sleep is really, really tough. And yeah, toddler sleep is really tough.

[A]

Toddler sleep is really tough. And probably if somebody's worried about toddler behavior, it's if I want to find out what going on with sleep.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, toddler sleep is really tough and sleep is always really important. And I think part of what's hard about this is it's not that we don't have methods to fix it. We do. They are just incredibly intensive.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And like they just require a level of sort of commitment to fixing the problem that sometimes we don't have accessible to us in the moment. Right. You sort of say, like you said to me, the most important thing, like I've, I've put two weeks on my calendar and I'm going to fix this problem. Like for most kids, you'll be able to fix the problem. Like you, you explain the bedtime routine, you implement the bedtime routine, you put them back in their room. Every time they come out, somebody sleeps on the floor outside their room. So, you know, they can put them back in their bed like this. And kids form habits quickly. Like, you can fix this. But it is really important to recognize it's not something you can fix. In five minutes. And it's not something you can fix without the kind of agreement of everybody in the household and, like, really having a plan. So it feels to me like a. Like a place that's. That's really hard because people are looking like, you're so tired when you're dealing with the sleep stuff. You're so tired. So frustrated. The idea of, like, I need to take two weeks off from my life to fix this problem is. Is insurmountable in a lot of those moments.

[A]

Oh, I think so many people just are. They're too tired and it's never happening. And they'll deal with it maybe two years later or three years later. But that isn't because it's not okay to do that with your toddler. It's just because it might not be okay for you.

[B]

Yeah. And I think it's good. I think that recognition is almost like we under. Recognize our capacity constraints, right? To sort of say, like, I've landed in this place and I don't like it. Sometimes it's valuable to be like, this isn't really working for me. But right now I'm not really in a position to fix it in the way that I want. And I know where I want to get. I know where we're going to want to get, and we're going to think about that, and we're going to, like, think about when is the time we can get there. And for now, we're going to live in this place and just recognize it's not quite where we want to be. But, you know, it's. It's okay. And that's a hard recognition. But I think sometimes if you get there, then you at least can feel like, okay, I'm not pretending this is exactly where I want to be. I'm just recognizing the capacity that I have to fix it right now.

[A]

And. And I think broadly remembering, like, will that impact your child's development?

[B]

Yes. And I think that's. That's where I would always tell people, like, take that off the table. Like, it's fine. Your kid's sleeping in your bed. They're eating only nuggets for dinner, you know, with two packets of ketchup. They're, like, doing, like, all, like, it's. It's fine. You know, the house is messy. There's toys everywhere. It's all. It's totally great. You know, your kid does need to get enough sleep. But, like, up most of these things, like, anything is great. It's affecting your experience, which is important, but also Is something that you can sort of see. Everything's great for my kid. I want this to be different. And I'm going to wait until I have the capacity to, like, fix it in a way that is, you know, is going to feel right for me.

[A]

That's such a valuable reminder for everybody because I think that's where everybody gets so tied in knots and feels so crappy that it really has nothing to do with if you really zoom out and you're like, what really matters to me is this, like, big picture. Am I raising this child to have whatever values that I'm going for in my particular household and general physical and mental health, These things are not going to have an impact on that other than your capacity. And so when you can deal with it, if you want to deal with it, there are ways. But it's not like it's about your day to day now. It's not about what is going to happen 20 years from now in terms of who they are.

[B]

I think that's exactly what I was. Well said. Exactly what I was trying to say.

[A]

I want to think of like two more that are just like, very concrete.

[B]

I got another one for you. Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Myth you can potty train your kid in three days. Fact.

[A]

Okay, great.

[B]

You cannot potty train your kid in three days. Potty training, which has gotten. Kids have gotten way older over time. So, you know, in the. When I was a kid, kids are potty trained at 2. Now kids are potty trained basically at 3 or a little bit after. And it takes typically, you know, if your kid is three, it'll be faster on average than if they're, you know, 18 months or two years. But it typically takes a few weeks to kind of get all the way from like the beginning to like when your kid is. Is finished potty training, they often take longer to poop in the potty. Kids are afraid of pooping in the potty. I think it's like they're afraid of their poop coming out. Like, it's like their arm falling as like losing an appendage or something. So I just think people, people need to. People would benefit from, from changing their expectations about that particular experience because you sort of get this idea like, oh, I'm gonna like, it's a long weekend. And I'm sure I'm guilty of this too, being like, it's a long weekend. Potty train your kid. It's like you could start, but like.

[A]

You could start and maybe it'll go well and you get further than you Would with a boy really? Is what I'll say. Yes. Girl, you might get get further.

[B]

It's a girl. You might get further, faster, but generally that takes a longer time. And that's not because your kid's broken.

[A]

Now for a quick break so I can tell you about my sponsors. It's this perfect time of year where Quint's sweaters are happening. The layering is back, it's getting a little cooler. And cooler days call for layers that last. And also as it gets even cooler, then everybody turns the heat on. Then you have to take off your sweater. Anyway, point is, you got to get sweaters from Quince because they're so high quality, they are so soft and cozy. They look refined. But they are legitimately such a fraction of the cost of other cashmere sweaters. In particular, you can't believe it. They have $50 Mongolian cashmere. They're beautiful. They come in so many different colors. They also have fantastic wool coats. So you can like do a pea coat over a nice Mongolian cashmere sweater with a denim jean. The whole thing, the thing is that Quince partners directly with top tier ethical factories. So it cuts out the middleman and they deliver luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands. So you gotta, you gotta do it. Find your fall staples at Quint's. Go to quint.com humans for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com humans to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com humans truly go get a cashmere sweater. Get yourself that luxury item. I love them. Not to harp on all the different things I'm imparting on you as a woman who is, I don't know, I feel like I'm a little older than most of my listeners, so I may as well tell you about all of the things. And so one of the things is that your hair, in fact, many of you probably know this after you have a baby, your hair gets a little thinner and falls out a little bit. Anyway, over time my hair got thinner and now I found a very cool led. Basically a head mask. It looks like a helmet. You can put it on the way you would do the face LED masks for your skin. You put it on, but you can like do other things. Don't think of it as any time commitment. You just put it on and you might look like you're going for a bike ride, but in fact you're just helping your Hair grow a little bit, get thicker. Anyway, it's so cool. Get an Irisore Elite and you can say goodbye to thinning hair. And use the Irestore Elite, which is clinically proven to help regrow hair using 300 lasers and 200 LEDs that send light therapy directly to your scalp. So give yourself the gift of hair confidence. For a limited time only, our listeners are getting this huge discount on the Irestore Elite. When you use the code [e-mail] head over to irestore.com and use the code RGH for our show's exclusive discounts on the Irestore Elite. Please support the show and tell them that we sent you. It's also a massive discount. It's an expensive, expensive product, but a massive, massive discount. So give it a try. Okay. Along the potty training lines, I can see the post. I didn't, I don't know if it, it's a, I'm sure it's out there of somebody saying if you give a reward for potty training that you're going to mess with your child's internal drive.

[B]

To intrinsic motivation, you know?

[A]

Yeah, or if you. Yeah, we can do that because we didn't address rewards before.

[B]

Yeah, totally.

[A]

So let's, let's do that.

[B]

So.

[A]

And, and I think there's probably like, with all things, there's just like a lot more nuance than is out there. But I, I feel like rewards is one of those things where it's gotten, something has been lost in translation.

[B]

So I think that what, what has gotten lost in translation on rewards is this question of sort of intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. And the idea that, you know, when we are hoping our kids will eventually, you know, try to achieve excellence in whatever they're doing that like ultimately to, to do those things, you do have to be like intrinsically motivated. Right. The world is not exclusively full of extrinsic motivation. And so we are somehow worried that if we give kids rewards for something that they will never be intrinsically motivated to do anything. But even very, very concretely to say, like, you know, if I give my kid a reward, if I give them an M and M every time they, they use the toilet, they poop in the toilet. They'll never poop in the toilet without having an M and M, that's kind of the idea. And so, yeah, there's, it is true that there's some trades off, trade offs between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation kind of broadly in how we, we like motivate people. There's like whole economics literature is about this in people's workplaces and how you think about structuring that. It's also true that, you know, every kindergarten classroom in the entire universe uses like some version of a token economy to try to, to reward behaviors and particularly behaviors that are habit formation behaviors. Right. So the reality is we were all potty trained on M&MS. Or some other thing. And like, I think most adults poop every day with an M and M. And the thing is that it's because eventually you just get in the habit of using the toilet and then you use the toilet and use the toilet and then you stop needing, you stop eating the M&Ms. And that's true of many kinds of habit formation things. So I think when sort of people think about like, what's a good, what's a good place for rewards? Like a sort of obvious place for rewards. It's something where we're really trying to develop a habit. You know, put your, yeah. Put your shoes away every day. Put your, you know, like, get it. Get up every morning with the green on the alarm. If you do that for three weeks in a row, you'll get a stuffed animal, whatever, whatever it is. And by then, you know, three weeks in, they get the stuffed animal, but now they're just getting up with the green light every day and we don't need to sort of keep doing it. So I think that's, that's where like this idea of like, yeah, generally intrinsic motivation is good, but also you can use rewards to generate habits.

[A]

I actually think that's a perfect way of distinguishing it. It's like, it's not about morals and values. It's just like, do you need to learn how to brush your teeth every night or, you know, whatever. And then if it's like not going to matter in, in the long run, it's probably a good opportunity to, to use them. And if it is going to matter in the long run, I mean, I guess then you'd have to decide.

[B]

I mean, there's like a super, this is super interesting connection to the, to the economics literature because it, it, we tend to sort of think when we pay people that like, you know, rewards are like a piece rate, right? Like when you, if you did your job and like every time you made like 20 minutes of a podcast, you got like a, you know, $300 whatever. Like that's, you know, and we don't compensate the making of podcasts that way because you need to be motivated to do A good job in a kind of more general way that we can't really observe. Right. If I was going to pay you $300 for every 20 minutes of the podcast, you just, like, sit there in silence, go, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, yeah. And so I think that's the. The question of, you know, whether this particular behavior is, like, something where the person really needs to put in time and. And think about it being great, as opposed to just, you literally need to do it. You just need to pee in the toilet. That's it. Just.

[A]

It's.

[B]

It's just it.

[A]

You know, that's funny because my friend who's a runner. Oh, you're a runner. So maybe you won't even understand this. But she said, I mean, maybe you're, like, more of a runner than she is, but she's a runner. And I said to her, I'm so envious that you love running and that you just, like, get up every day and go running. Like, I've always wanted to be that person. And she's like, I don't love running every day. But, you know, like, you might need some external motivation to get started because it's not, like, super exciting to be in a, you know, not aerobically fit and try to run a bunch of miles.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

And so you might push yourself and. And start a new habit. And I was like, wait a minute. People who run don't, like, get up excited to run every day? Like, they have to sometimes push themselves. This, to me, was, like, the most shocking information because I. I, like, as an adult, it would not occur to me, like, that there's a personality type. I don't know why. My college roommate, by the way, runs marathons, and she seems very happy.

[B]

I really. I will say I really liked it. Like, running is my favorite, like, among my very favorite activities.

[A]

Yeah, she's like that. Like, she's like, I. I'm like, are you sure this is okay for you? She runs so many marathons.

[B]

Definitely not okay for you. But it's like, my husband's like, this is not. I was like, exercise is good. He's like, not this amount of extra. Like, this is not good for you. This is just something else.

[A]

But maybe there's a point at which it is something else. But I was kind of amazed that there are some people. Let's say they're not you or my college roommate Inga, who I think really just came. Just. You really derive joy from this. But there are some people, like this woman, Sasha, who Was like, I do it because it's something that is like on balance really good for me and makes me feel good. But I push myself to do it on days when I don't want to and for that I give myself a latte after or whatever it is. And I was like, the people who.

[B]

Watch tv, like, who reward themselves at the gym by watching a TV show that they like. Like you save the very common thing, you like sa episodes of TV show, you like to get yourself to go to the gym. And then would you say like is. And I think it's exactly the same. Would you be like, well, that's like, you know, that doesn't count. Like those that like that elliptical didn't count because you like were rewarded by it, you know, with an episode of Hunting Wives or whatever. It's like, no, that you still on the elliptical just as much even if you're watching, you know, lesbian soft porn or whatever. I don't know what that show is like.

[A]

That is what it is. But that's so true. And I don't think we say that, but that is something to just like have in our minds is. Have we taken it too far of like rewards are totally messing with motivation. When like the reality is for, for certain things, does it matter?

[B]

Yeah, but I think it's a good, it's also a sort of good. There's a, there's a place where you do actually want to be careful. So for example, when we talked about diet, we talked about like picky eating before. One of the things we know from about picky eating is that the like approach that's like, you know, if you finish that broccoli, you can have ice cream, which is a kind of reward approach actually doesn't work. It doesn't tend to develop the taste for broccoli. It just associates broccoli with like, broccoli is bad. And so I think there's, there is a space here where you're saying, like, what's your goal? There is your goal. Your goal is to have people understand that broccoli is a delicious food, not that broccoli is a punishment. And so the habit formation there doesn't hit as much as the. Just like this. You need people to be intrinsically motivated to consume vegetables.

[A]

I feel like that's true for like I, I saw somebody that was rewarding their one child for being nice to the other one and I was like, I feel like that might be a funky message because you're not really habit forming kindness, but I guess there's a world for some people where they're like, no, that's the best we can do.

[B]

There actually is a Berenstain Bears book about this where she, where they get. There's like a punishment system when they're not nice to each other and it works. So I don't know if that's.

[A]

That does not sound like your usual data set.

[B]

No, it's not. It's not. It's an N of 1. It's an. It's an anecdotal. Anecdotal bear oriented anecdote.

[A]

No, it's good. Okay, so what is a la. Actually siblings. This is a good one for. What do you see? Stretching. People are like a kernel of something that's turned into a myth about siblings.

[B]

So I think siblings are an interesting space where people have no idea what to do and they want very, very badly for their kids to like each other. And it's. And like there isn't. They're not coming and being like, I heard if I do blah. They're just like, what is this? And I, I think part of what's so hard is that your kids, your sibling is like, that's such a unique relationship where like on the one hand they like often your siblings, the siblings will have like, you know, this is like my ride or die. Like I do anything for my brother but also drives me out of my mind. And like that's a really weird kind of relationship. It is true when you look at the data that kind of. One thing that seems to be bad for developing sibling relationships is like a lot of comparison is sort of, you know, why can't you be more like your sister? Blah, blah, blah, like that that generates and what you know, you sort of see at least in. In kind of more focus groupie data like very, very long term resentments even in, in adult siblings. But we don't have evidence that I think people would like, which is like how do I. Like how do I make my kids like each other? This is really, really hard partly because they're just people. And so, you know, some, sometimes they're going to like each other more than others and when they become adults it's going to depend on who they marry and you know what other things happen in their lives.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But don't you want your kids to like each other? So like I want them to like each other so much.

[A]

So much like it. It's probably my number one wish. Yeah. And then they leave. I'm so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So if people are feeling stressed out whether they have an infant, a toddler, a school age child, an adolescent, what have you. I know what you've done, but tell us what you've done to kind of really I think contribute to taking this weight off of everybody's shoulders.

[B]

So we have a website, parentdata.org and I think that the best kind of like dial down my panic piece of this is if you are on the website and you like are in the search bar with your panic question, there's a AI chatbot which is like trained on the Emily corpus of, of information which will give you just like a snippet of an answer to whatever is your panic question and then it will give you ways to go deeper so you can, you know, be further, further into, you know, relaxing. But I think that, that, that really like I'd like to replace your panic Google. So like try, try this out before you panic Google and find out that you've done something terrible because it's very, very unlikely that you have. And, and the other, the other panic Google people often have is, you know, what is this health issue my kid has? And we want to be there for that too. So you know, your baby's poop is green. I want you to ask me if that's okay, because it is. And then you can just go back to sleep.

[A]

So what are some flags? Which I know this could be an entire separate conversation, but generally speaking, if somebody's like I'm, that's not good enough, I need to panic Google. What are some red flags? And part two of that is if you're on social media, what are some red flags where somebody's super sure of data or something is super evidence based but you're like, no it's not. How can people, how can people notice what they should stop listening to?

[B]

Yeah. So I think one pretty strong thing I would say on social media in particular is there's a really big distinction between things you look for and things that are, that look the things that look for you. So you know, if you're, if you are googling something or you know, you're searching in some way, like I think you should be on parent data. But you know, most of the time the first thing you get to on, you know, like most of the time you're going to get to at least reliable sources of information as the kind of early stuff. What's tricky about social media is often you will be coming into this just almost not even looking for the answer to a question. And then someone will be kind of at you with, you know, vaccines are killing your kid, or, you know, you've ruined them in this way, or you drop your kid at daycare, they think you died. You know, all kinds of crazy stuff that doesn't. Isn't true and isn't and isn't something you're looking for and really, you're not in a position to evaluate it. So I would say, like, the most important piece of advice, rather than saying, you know, this particular kind of person is not trustworthy or whatever, is to just say, like, am I looking for the answer to this question right now? Is this relevant for a decision that I'm making or not? And if it is not relevant for a decision that you're making, you should try not to. To read it and you can file it away for later. You can write down, like, later, I'd like to learn more about the relationship between, you know, daycare and whether my kid thinks I'm dead. I'm gonna go figure that out in some reputable source that I can. Can search in, but I'm not going to go down this rabbit hole in a moment that I am not prepared for.

[A]

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